A Cowboy's Fan take on our Deep Ball

Scorpion05

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Objective video. Also provides insight as to why Wilson holds onto the ball. *Hint*, it's not because Wilson is incapable of getting rid of it quickly, it's the nature of our offense

[youtube]OjrHuG2LfXg[/youtube]
 

RolandDeschain

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Scorpion05

Scorpion05

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Gotcha. I thought he was based on the ending of the video
 

SHOCKER315

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I was just getting ready to post this vid myself.

This film provides great explanation for all those wondering why RW seems to hold on to the ball longer than most QB's on play-action. Also explains why RW seems to overlook shallower open routes... and sometimes doesn't seem to be the best throwing quick anticipatory passes (like say Peyton Manning).

Answer: He is waiting on the the deep WR to declare his option route. (See 7:00 mark)

In short, this Pete Carrol offense puts more emphasis on getting the deep explosive passes, based on deep routes that are not predetermined. While I think this leads to more sacks because Wilson is holding the ball longer... the benefit is a greater number of explosive pass plays with less interceptions...(most INT's comp from QB's throwing to a predetermined spot based on pre-snap defensive alignment... think about the RW pick sixes this year).

Anyway, I thought is was a fascinating vid, that provides better insight than most.
 

Jville

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Excellent link. Nicely done.

Reminds me of the read and improvisation between Largent and Zorn. Back in those days fans went crazy over Zorn holding onto the ball so long and became accustom to throwing ugly insults at offensive linemen. Largent was magic. It's the details and chemistry between team mates that trumps the measurable.

Thanks for posting. :2thumbs:
 

IndyHawk

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Jville":1ogql821 said:
Excellent link. Nicely done.

Reminds me of the read and improvisation between Largent and Zorn. Back in those days fans went crazy over Zorn holding onto the ball so long and became accustom to throwing ugly insults at offensive linemen. Largent was magic. It's the details and chemistry between team mates that trumps the measurable.

Thanks for posting. :2thumbs:
I am sorry but I cannot see how RW compares with Zorny
at all..Zorn to me was a poor QB and yes he held the ball but
hell the guy had only one read..Pass to Largent otherwise it was
going to be ugly to anyone else..His interception total was horrible.
Steve really killed himself catching a lot of ugly thrown balls btw.
 

MD5eahawks

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Makes perfect sense to me. I hope everyone here watches that video. Somewhere in here it was brought up about the WRs being wide open, seemingly waiting on the ball to arrive. Without seeing the whole field during these plays it's hard to comprehend why. I've never really had a problem with how long RW holds the ball. I have just recently felt that they should implement some plays that offer getting rid of the ball quicker.

Often times we forget, if it ain't broke....

Awesome post. Thanks for that.
 

Jville

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IndyHawk":3nfjbito said:
Jville":3nfjbito said:
Excellent link. Nicely done.

Reminds me of the read and improvisation between Largent and Zorn. Back in those days fans went crazy over Zorn holding onto the ball so long and became accustom to throwing ugly insults at offensive linemen. Largent was magic. It's the details and chemistry between team mates that trumps the measurable.

Thanks for posting. :2thumbs:
I am sorry but I cannot see how RW compares with Zorny
at all..Zorn to me was a poor QB and yes he held the ball but
hell the guy had only one read..Pass to Largent otherwise it was
going to be ugly to anyone else..His interception total was horrible.
Steve really killed himself catching a lot of ugly thrown balls btw.

You missed the point of the post. No comparison or ranking was made concerning Wilson and Zorn.

I'm pointing to the chemistry between quarterback and receiver. Zorn and Largent invested a lot of time in each other. Wilson and Lockett invested a lot of time in each other including the most recent off season. That's how the magic is built.
 

MontanaHawk05

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These plays are great when they work.

They're also the reason that Bob Condotta usually ends too many first halves by posting how Wilson is sitting at <70 passing yards and the offense looks like your rural high school's.

"If you want to keep Russell Wilson from throwing that ball, you sack him. That's your only good bet."

Ya. And it happens a lot. And Pete gets away with it because we're too busy blaming the offensive line.

If you want to see the embarrassing version of what happens when Seattle sends a whopping two guys out on routes, go back to Seattle's first play from scrimmage this season, against the Broncos. You guessed it. Wilson gets sacked. Hilariously. WITH SEVEN-MAN PROTECTION. It's not an immediate sack, either - Wilson's got nowhere to go with the ball. Doesn't help that Duane Brown gets pushed back into Chris Carson trying to leak out, but the point is - this type of deep philosophy is a double-edged sword. There are games where Wilson can do it over and over. There are also games where he just...gets sacked. A lot. And scores five points the whole game.

If I'm Rod Marinelli this week, whenever I see that smash concept out on the field, I tell one or both linebackers away from that side to blitz. That's the weakness of that two-man route concept. It invites blitzing linebackers because they've got nothing else to do. Yeah, I know Wilson is statistically good against the blitz, but not all of those big plays of his are against this particular concept. So I roll the dice.

Why?

Go to 8:23 on that video and find David Moore on the shallow crosser. He's found a soft zone to sit down in, and is wide open for twelve yards. Instant first down. So Wilson has MORE options than he does on the usual two-man concept. And he doesn't take it. He doesn't fire to Moore. He goes looking for Lockett again.

If I'm Marinelli, I use that against him. I call blitzes on these plays. Because even if the play does have a hot route or leaking RB installed, it's going to either be late because it's a chip or because the RB has a hard time dodging his own tackles, or because I just know Wilson is loath to settle for a checkdown or modest gain. Because he's greedy. PETE'S greedy. They're obsessed with the psychological value of the back-breaking big play and therefore run these concepts that leave all Wilson's eggs in one basket and put immense pressure on the offensive line. It's only the talent of Wilson and his receivers that make these plays work.

So on that concept, I'm going to bet that Wilson either just doesn't take the quick yards or something else goes wrong for Seattle. Pocic screws up. Ifedi screws up. The tight ends whiff a speed blitz. Davis gets caught in the scrum trying to leak out. Take your pick. And the blitz gets home. Wilson will get some plays, but he'll also miss a lot more and get rattled. I'll take the attrition.

God I hate those plays. Just take the #&@%^@* yards. Wilson's good enough to be scoring forty points a game. He's always been that good. And it's Pete, more than anything else, that's held him back from that. Sorry to lift a quote from Semiahmoo, but yes, I've been saying this the entire time.
 

toffee

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GREAT video, thanks for sharing. A few thoughts:

1. Amazed at the football IQ of Lockett, and of course Baldwin who was not featured in this video but Doug has been doing same for years. They were not just follow the script to run fixed routes but using their IQ to create on the fly.

2. Amazing guts of one DangeRuss Wilson, standing there waiting for his WRs to move and get open. Knowing there were 300 lbs linemen charging at him.

3. Difficult job for our OL, those 6-7 sec blocking, why a 6th linemen, Fant or other blocking TE is so critical .... and why Graham was an ill fit.

4. We basically have not one but TWO excellent slot receivers in Lockett and Doug, an luxury.

5. We need a big tall flanker to make our offensive basically unstoppable. Great inside run by Carson, outside run by Penny, small quick WR in Lockett and a big body flanker. And of course we have DangeRuss!!

Our OL may be pass blocking better than the statistic are showing!!

The video made me appreciate Wilson even more, but he's also our system's single point of failure. Almost impossible to have another QB to step in and do the same.
 

RolandDeschain

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MontanaHawk05":2uu5o0v6 said:
Ya. And it happens a lot. And Pete gets away with it because we're too busy blaming the offensive line.
Well, look at the change in our offensive line's performance "overnight" with a new O-line coach. Weren't you also one of the historical posters that said it's on the players to execute, too? Meaning, not all blame can be put on Cable?
 

MontanaHawk05

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RolandDeschain":1s3v0b9t said:
MontanaHawk05":1s3v0b9t said:
Ya. And it happens a lot. And Pete gets away with it because we're too busy blaming the offensive line.
Well, look at the change in our offensive line's performance "overnight" with a new O-line coach.

Yeah, too bad that wasn't around in 2017, when we were running the exact same plays without the horses to execute them.

When it comes to 2017, people tend to blame locker room drama. I prefer to look at Blair Walsh, injury, and coaching decisions, because those things can be quantified. And we made only occasional attempts to play to our strengths in 2017 (such as quick-play offenses), at which time they usually worked (see the Eagles game).

RolandDeschain":1s3v0b9t said:
Weren't you also one of the historical posters that said it's on the players to execute, too? Meaning, not all blame can be put on Cable?

It's always on the players to execute. But since I'm a contrarian (you'll understand), I tend to look in other directions as well, such as the way scheme, other personnel, and coaching decisions can make it easier or harder for players to execute. For example, back in 2008-2009 when everyone was criticizing Seattle's offensive line for not being able to protect Hasselbeck, few (other than Rob Staton) were really thinking about how Hasselbeck's diminished arm strength shortened the field, encouraged blitzes, and made life even harder for an already questionable OL. There's a level of badness that belongs to them, and there's a level of badness that's attributable to other things.

Sure, we have the talent to run these concepts now. But why do we have to go for low-percentage plays all the time? OPTIMIZE things, Pete. If not for the talent of Lockett and Wilson, Pete would be gone by now.
 

RolandDeschain

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MontanaHawk05":3k4fhawt said:
Yeah, too bad that wasn't around in 2017, when we were running the exact same plays without the horses to execute them.

Except that we're not just running all the same exact plays, in the exact same formations, in the exact same ways.
 

MontanaHawk05

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RolandDeschain":1cl5ew3m said:
MontanaHawk05":1cl5ew3m said:
Yeah, too bad that wasn't around in 2017, when we were running the exact same plays without the horses to execute them.

Except that we're not just running all the same exact plays, in the exact same formations, in the exact same ways.

Didn't say we were running all. But the adaptations came too late and too seldom.
 

MesquiteHawk

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That was really good. Perhaps we are too quick to get mad at Russ when he holds the ball?
 

John63

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MontanaHawk05":qqxztrqc said:
These plays are great when they work.

They're also the reason that Bob Condotta usually ends too many first halves by posting how Wilson is sitting at <70 passing yards and the offense looks like your rural high school's.

"If you want to keep Russell Wilson from throwing that ball, you sack him. That's your only good bet."

Ya. And it happens a lot. And Pete gets away with it because we're too busy blaming the offensive line.

If you want to see the embarrassing version of what happens when Seattle sends a whopping two guys out on routes, go back to Seattle's first play from scrimmage this season, against the Broncos. You guessed it. Wilson gets sacked. Hilariously. WITH SEVEN-MAN PROTECTION. It's not an immediate sack, either - Wilson's got nowhere to go with the ball. Doesn't help that Duane Brown gets pushed back into Chris Carson trying to leak out, but the point is - this type of deep philosophy is a double-edged sword. There are games where Wilson can do it over and over. There are also games where he just...gets sacked. A lot. And scores five points the whole game.

If I'm Rod Marinelli this week, whenever I see that smash concept out on the field, I tell one or both linebackers away from that side to blitz. That's the weakness of that two-man route concept. It invites blitzing linebackers because they've got nothing else to do. Yeah, I know Wilson is statistically good against the blitz, but not all of those big plays of his are against this particular concept. So I roll the dice.

Why?

Go to 8:23 on that video and find David Moore on the shallow crosser. He's found a soft zone to sit down in, and is wide open for twelve yards. Instant first down. So Wilson has MORE options than he does on the usual two-man concept. And he doesn't take it. He doesn't fire to Moore. He goes looking for Lockett again.

If I'm Marinelli, I use that against him. I call blitzes on these plays. Because even if the play does have a hot route or leaking RB installed, it's going to either be late because it's a chip or because the RB has a hard time dodging his own tackles, or because I just know Wilson is loath to settle for a checkdown or modest gain. Because he's greedy. PETE'S greedy. They're obsessed with the psychological value of the back-breaking big play and therefore run these concepts that leave all Wilson's eggs in one basket and put immense pressure on the offensive line. It's only the talent of Wilson and his receivers that make these plays work.

So on that concept, I'm going to bet that Wilson either just doesn't take the quick yards or something else goes wrong for Seattle. Pocic screws up. Ifedi screws up. The tight ends whiff a speed blitz. Davis gets caught in the scrum trying to leak out. Take your pick. And the blitz gets home. Wilson will get some plays, but he'll also miss a lot more and get rattled. I'll take the attrition.

God I hate those plays. Just take the #&@%^@* yards. Wilson's good enough to be scoring forty points a game. He's always been that good. And it's Pete, more than anything else, that's held him back from that. Sorry to lift a quote from Semiahmoo, but yes, I've been saying this the entire time.

I actually agree with most of what you said, this video makes it crystal clear the issue is not Wilson, and mostly not the oline, it is PETE ball. Now that said we have won a lot with PETE ball. What is most interesting is we did get to see a quicker passing game in latter 2015 and it worked great, but once we got Lynch back we went back and well the rest is history. Wonder how much more we could have won with a newer system like KC, or Rams.
 

semiahmoo

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The video makes it undeniably clear that the deeper the ball the better.

GO HAWKS!!!
 
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