RW3 TOP 10 Mold breaker of all time

UK_Seahawk · Feb 18, 2019

Cowherd talking about athletes that broke the mold when coming into their sports. Tiger Woods, Steph Curry and Ali etc. A certain Russell Wilson makes the top 10, high praise indeed.

AROS · Feb 18, 2019

Meanwhile there's still a ton of old coots who won't give him his due because he's not the "prototypical" tall, pocket-passing NFL QB.

HawkGA · Feb 18, 2019

Not to hijack the thread, but how did Tiger break the mold? I mean, he was clearly head and shoulder above the field for a long time but aside from being better, was he different? Just seems like if Wilson makes the list it should a list of people who did things differently, not just who was the best at what they did. But I'm also not a golf guy so I don't know much.

OKHawksfan · Feb 18, 2019

HawkGA":26n3dcdl said:
Not to hijack the thread, but how did Tiger break the mold? I mean, he was clearly head and shoulder above the field for a long time but aside from being better, was he different? Just seems like if Wilson makes the list it should a list of people who did things differently, not just who was the best at what they did. But I'm also not a golf guy so I don't know much.

I think it is probably because he was an African American in a sport that has largely been white.

AROS · Feb 18, 2019

OKHawksfan":30rc5giv said:
I think it is probably because he was an African American in a sport that has largely been white.

Yes, that and how young and talented he was when he broke into the sport.

RobDaHawk · Feb 18, 2019

The biggest impact Tiger had was the popularity he brought to the sport by being as good as he was/is. Within a few years Golf jumped by more than %1000 percent in notariety and popularity. He turned a previously quiet and somber sport into something it hadn't been prior. That's what makes Tiger so great. He alone changed the sport all together. similar to any other generational talent across all sports

Spin Doctor · Feb 18, 2019

Aros":2pgy99an said:
Meanwhile there's still a ton of old coots who won't give him his due because he's not the "prototypical" tall, pocket-passing NFL QB.

I don't understand this. If you look at most fans outside of the Seahawks, they rate Wilson pretty highly. The media also isn't exactly ambivalent towards him either. They don't exactly bash him, and certain analyst are head over heels in love with the guy. Honestly, I think the majority of the media (guys not looking for click bait) have Wilson rated where he needs to be.

He's a very good QB, but he's really gated by the system he plays in. Even when he was putting up big numbers he struggled for most of the game (2015 not included). Lack of third down conversions, erratic throws, etc. A lot of this has to do with Carroll's offensive philosophy, not on Wilson himself. He is limited by his staff more than any other veteran QB in the NFL. The main reason for this? Carroll believes that the toxic differential is more important than anything else. Carroll's offense is essentially the offensive equivalent of the prevent defense

Carroll's view on the toxic differential isn't necessarily wrong, but there is a balance that I think must be struck. To other NFL fans, and analyst who watch the Seahawks occasionally don't really understand Pete's take on things. It becomes really easy to blame the inconsistent offensive play on the QB, because he is the most important figure on offense. Really, it is a function of Pete Carroll's philosophy of protect the ball above all else. This leads to the Seahawks avoiding certain parts of the field, avoiding certain types of common plays in the NFL, etc. It isn't that Wilson can't, he did it in 2015, it's that Pete Carroll doesn't want that from his teams.

This is why it is so hard to get a good idea of what Russell Wilson truly is capable of, especially if he had an offensive guru bringing him up. We have a system that is unlike any other in the NFL, and to a person on the outside looking in it is really easy to blame Wilson for us running that type of system. Looking at the whole picture it is the same system we ran with Hasselbeck here, a QB that built his whole career on throwing guys open, and delivering timing passes. He was a rhythm QB, forced to play in a system that didn't suit his skill set.

Uncle Si · Feb 18, 2019

Echo (echo)

AROS · Feb 18, 2019

Spin Doctor":bq4wjzek said:
He's a very good QB, but he's really gated by the system he plays in. Even when he was putting up big numbers he struggled for most of the game (2015 not included). Lack of third down conversions, erratic throws, etc. A lot of this has to do with Carroll's offensive philosophy, not on Wilson himself. He is limited by his staff more than any other veteran QB in the NFL. The main reason for this? Carroll believes that the toxic differential is more important than anything else. Carroll's offense is essentially the offensive equivalent of the prevent defense

Carroll's view on the toxic differential isn't necessarily wrong, but there is a balance that I think must be struck. To other NFL fans, and analyst who watch the Seahawks occasionally don't really understand Pete's take on things. It becomes really easy to blame the inconsistent offensive play on the QB, because he is the most important figure on offense. Really, it is a function of Pete Carroll's philosophy of protect the ball above all else. This leads to the Seahawks avoiding certain parts of the field, avoiding certain types of common plays in the NFL, etc. It isn't that Wilson can't, he did it in 2015, it's that Pete Carroll doesn't want that from his teams.

This is why it is so hard to get a good idea of what Russell Wilson truly is capable of, especially if he had an offensive guru bringing him up. We have a system that is unlike any other in the NFL, and to a person on the outside looking in it is really easy to blame Wilson for us running that type of system. Looking at the whole picture it is the same system we ran with Hasselbeck here, a QB that built his whole career on throwing guys open, and delivering timing passes. He was a rhythm QB, forced to play in a system that didn't suit his skill set.

I couldn't agree more. Very astute analysis.

knownone · Feb 18, 2019

Russ, Vick, and Curry seem like odd inclusions to me. I get it from a modern perspective but on a list, with Ali, Robinson, and Navratilova, it just seems odd.

What significant mold did Russ break? There are 2 HoF QBs that are as tall or shorter than Russ. Brees is only 1 inch taller. Fran Tarkenton is the only one without a Superbowl/Championship but he has an MVP. If we're talking the modern era like 2000-now absolutely Russ is on the list, but all time... maybe when his career is over and he has more pelts on the wall.

Same goes for Vick. Anyone alive in the 90s remembers how many dual-threat guys were drafted because of Randall Cunningham. Vick may be the best running QB in NFL history but he didn't really break the mold so much as he expanded on it.

chris98251 · Feb 18, 2019

Tiger was one of the first to have a training regimen specifically tailored for Golf, why he was head and shoulder so damn good out of the gate compared to the rest of the field, shortly after his emergence and consistency like anything else it began to get copied and the gap began to close. If not for his indiscretions and public humility as well as a series of injuries he may have broke Jacks records.

lobohawk · Feb 19, 2019

Spin Doctor":3slafzc8 said:
Aros":3slafzc8 said:

Meanwhile there's still a ton of old coots who won't give him his due because he's not the "prototypical" tall, pocket-passing NFL QB.

Click to expand...

I don't understand this. If you look at most fans outside of the Seahawks, they rate Wilson pretty highly. The media also isn't exactly ambivalent towards him either. They don't exactly bash him, and certain analyst are head over heels in love with the guy. Honestly, I think the majority of the media (guys not looking for click bait) have Wilson rated where he needs to be.

He's a very good QB, but he's really gated by the system he plays in. Even when he was putting up big numbers he struggled for most of the game (2015 not included). Lack of third down conversions, erratic throws, etc. A lot of this has to do with Carroll's offensive philosophy, not on Wilson himself. He is limited by his staff more than any other veteran QB in the NFL. The main reason for this? Carroll believes that the toxic differential is more important than anything else. Carroll's offense is essentially the offensive equivalent of the prevent defense

Carroll's view on the toxic differential isn't necessarily wrong, but there is a balance that I think must be struck. To other NFL fans, and analyst who watch the Seahawks occasionally don't really understand Pete's take on things. It becomes really easy to blame the inconsistent offensive play on the QB, because he is the most important figure on offense. Really, it is a function of Pete Carroll's philosophy of protect the ball above all else. This leads to the Seahawks avoiding certain parts of the field, avoiding certain types of common plays in the NFL, etc. It isn't that Wilson can't, he did it in 2015, it's that Pete Carroll doesn't want that from his teams.

This is why it is so hard to get a good idea of what Russell Wilson truly is capable of, especially if he had an offensive guru bringing him up. We have a system that is unlike any other in the NFL, and to a person on the outside looking in it is really easy to blame Wilson for us running that type of system. Looking at the whole picture it is the same system we ran with Hasselbeck here, a QB that built his whole career on throwing guys open, and delivering timing passes. He was a rhythm QB, forced to play in a system that didn't suit his skill set.

This is why I rarely fall into the QB evaluation by the media and fans. A coach and offensive system can determine the perception of a QB's ability. This goes for QBs which have doubters and those who people fall over praising. Take Brady and put him on another team and he won't be considered a GOAT. Put Rivers on the Patriots and he might have a several rings. Bill makes that much of a difference (in addition to their crappy Division). By the same token, I'm guessing there are a lot of QBs which were brought down by the talent and coaching around them, irrespective of their actual talent.

Recent video evaluation showing Wilson holding the ball for a long time was rather illuminating. What it showed is that he was dependent on a route created on the fly. Thus the play depends on him holding and maneuvering for time to allow the route to finish. He can't throw to space until the receiver decides at their break and this makes it look like he's indecisive or slow to read. The video focused on a lot of Lockett's big plays this year. Same plays, but different breaks and each time Wilson has to wait on Lockett's read. It does make it hard for a defense to counteract specific routes (too random), but it forces the line and WIlson to deal with the rush.

TwistedHusky · Feb 19, 2019

"Carroll's offense is essentially the offensive equivalent of the prevent defense"

Spin's comment is probably the best explanation of an issue that addresses a majority of the major discourse areas for this site.

That includes:

Russell's production
Russell's playoff production (or perceived lack thereof)
The issues with the this team's offense
The problems with limited production in the first half
Whether our offensive philosophy makes sense with the weapons we have
Whether our offensive philosophy is holding us back
Is Carroll a dinosaur
Why are we putting so much of the weight of winning the games on the back of the defense
Does keeping the game close as a strategy even make sense if the defense is no longer elite

I probably missed some but almost all of them find an answer in that assessment from Spin.

And in spite of that massive handicap, Wilson still produces. He has been breaking molds since he got here, and frankly even before that (wasn't he one of the few to first to use that new transfer rule to move from NC St to Wisc in the first place?) He certainly was one of the first to make such a massive difference in going from NC St which wasn't a world beater to suddenly taking Wisc to a Rose Bowl.

He is easily a top 6 QB, even with his own staff's philosophy holding him back. It would have been interesting to see how great he could have been and what his production could have become - with the skill development that an offensively oriented coach could have provided. He could have been what Mahomes is now - not just great and prolific but CONSISTENTLY great and prolific.

Playing under Carroll's offensive philosophy is probably the equivalent of running a race with lead weights in your shoes. So it is pretty amazing.

EastCoastHawksFan · Feb 19, 2019

Look no further then Kyler Murray . Projected 1st round . Never happens without Russ . Baker can thank, and has , Wilson as well .

Russell broke the mold . Plain and simple. QBs under 6 foot we’re not view highly coming out of college. Then Russell happened and since we have seen scouts throws away that a QB height matters

Spin Doctor · Feb 19, 2019

EastCoastHawksFan":328r1ham said:
Look no further then Kyler Murray . Projected 1st round . Never happens without Russ . Baker can thank, and has , Wilson as well .

Russell broke the mold . Plain and simple. QBs under 6 foot we’re not view highly coming out of college. Then Russell happened and since we have seen scouts throws away that a QB height matters

Projected first round*

We'll see where he really goes.

As far as height goes, Fran Tarkenton, Drew Brees, Doug Flutie, Micheal Vick and Wilson have all had success in the NFL. They are all around the same height as Wilson. In the case of Flutie and Tarkenton, they both had a similar play style and had some measure of success. If anything it was Brees that showed us that short QB's can still play in the NFL.

As far as Mayfield goes he is around 6'1 which is right around where Rodgers, and many other QB's are. Most QB's in the NFL sit anywhere from 6'2-6'4.

Being a smaller QB does have drawbacks as well, lets not pretend that it doesn't. Wilson, and Brees make it work because they have found work arounds. Brees for example has a certain way he navigates in the pocket, and the lineman have to block a certain way to make that arrangement work. Wilson compensates with his mobility, and by really deep drawbacks. He sits way further behind the LOS than any QB I've seen on a consistent basis. This is his compensation method, and it works. Other vertically challenged QB's never develop these work arounds, and coping mechanisms.

In the eyes of scouts it is just one more thing that has to be adjusted for the NFL. Short QB's can work, we've seen it numerous times before. Is it ideal? No, it isn't. Wilson and Brees work because they are exceptional talents, in spite of their height.

Scorpion05 · Feb 19, 2019

This always happens. An athlete or celebrity defies the odds when no one thought they could. And then, their success becomes so normalized we forget just how ground breaking it was.

Russ absolutely was a ground breaker. Had he been 5 inches taller, he’d go in the 1st round given his college production. Instead, at 5’10 you had SO MANY pundits saying he’s a career backup, and no one expected him to even be considered top 5. You can claim he’s close in height to Brees and Vick but the bottom line is, he is shorter than both. Tarkenton was 6 feet. Again let’s not revise history, Russell’s success is incredibly impressive. If Kyler Murray succeeds, and make no mistake everyone will be comparing him to Russell..that will also be ground breaking

Tiger brought athleticism, unique training, and popularity to a sport that was hardly associated with any of those things. And yes, him being African American given this country and the sport’s history was also notable. But it’s mainly HOW Tiger excelled from a skill and athleticism standpoint that stood out. He dominated

Cunningham was great but come on, he’s no Vick. Cunningham was also 6’5. Vick was a solid 6’0, and it really made people question whether running QBs can succeed in the NFL. Vick’s first few years was must watch TV. His speed, agility, and arm strength was something else. It made coaches reconsider athletic QBs

Curry completely changed the league. He’s a point guard at average Basketball height who’s three point shooting completely forced many “experts” to eat crow that a three point shooting team can win the championship. He’s completely changed the way players are scouted. Teams now believe the only way to beat the Warriors is to have great three point shooting

TwistedHusky · Feb 19, 2019

Russ was a rookie that was NOT a 1st round pick. A rookie that was allowed to start, even though the team had already spent high dollars on a FA signee they lured/recruited from another team.

Teams routinely roll with their 1st round picks despite better players being available. But I cannot remember a team EVER going with a lower round pick after spending big dollars on a FA for that same position.

By that definition, he literally broke the mold (or Pete did) because I don't think it has ever happened, or if so - not at starting QB unless the FA just flames out first. Wilson won the position in training camp - unheard of.

PlinytheCenter · Feb 19, 2019

Spin Doctor":3jxli1et said:
Aros":3jxli1et said:

Meanwhile there's still a ton of old coots who won't give him his due because he's not the "prototypical" tall, pocket-passing NFL QB.

Click to expand...

I don't understand this. If you look at most fans outside of the Seahawks, they rate Wilson pretty highly. The media also isn't exactly ambivalent towards him either. They don't exactly bash him, and certain analyst are head over heels in love with the guy. Honestly, I think the majority of the media (guys not looking for click bait) have Wilson rated where he needs to be.

He's a very good QB, but he's really gated by the system he plays in. Even when he was putting up big numbers he struggled for most of the game (2015 not included). Lack of third down conversions, erratic throws, etc. A lot of this has to do with Carroll's offensive philosophy, not on Wilson himself. He is limited by his staff more than any other veteran QB in the NFL. The main reason for this? Carroll believes that the toxic differential is more important than anything else. Carroll's offense is essentially the offensive equivalent of the prevent defense

Carroll's view on the toxic differential isn't necessarily wrong, but there is a balance that I think must be struck. To other NFL fans, and analyst who watch the Seahawks occasionally don't really understand Pete's take on things. It becomes really easy to blame the inconsistent offensive play on the QB, because he is the most important figure on offense. Really, it is a function of Pete Carroll's philosophy of protect the ball above all else. This leads to the Seahawks avoiding certain parts of the field, avoiding certain types of common plays in the NFL, etc. It isn't that Wilson can't, he did it in 2015, it's that Pete Carroll doesn't want that from his teams.

This is why it is so hard to get a good idea of what Russell Wilson truly is capable of, especially if he had an offensive guru bringing him up. We have a system that is unlike any other in the NFL, and to a person on the outside looking in it is really easy to blame Wilson for us running that type of system. Looking at the whole picture it is the same system we ran with Hasselbeck here, a QB that built his whole career on throwing guys open, and delivering timing passes. He was a rhythm QB, forced to play in a system that didn't suit his skill set.

Well said, and FWIW very accurate. As an aside, has any QB ever accounted for what, 90% of an offense in a given year? If so, it has to be at best a VERY short list.

chris98251 · Feb 19, 2019

Don't forget about Roger Staubach, Landry loved the man but hated his play style, kept trying to get Craig Morton to step it up, but every time Roger was in the game they succeeded and the team rallied around him. He was a scrambler but not on the level of Tarkenton.

Seymour · Feb 19, 2019

Spin Doctor":101pwvvs said:
EastCoastHawksFan":101pwvvs said:

Look no further then Kyler Murray . Projected 1st round . Never happens without Russ . Baker can thank, and has , Wilson as well .

Russell broke the mold . Plain and simple. QBs under 6 foot we’re not view highly coming out of college. Then Russell happened and since we have seen scouts throws away that a QB height matters

Click to expand...

Projected first round*

We'll see where he really goes.

As far as height goes, Fran Tarkenton, Drew Brees, Doug Flutie, Micheal Vick and Wilson have all had success in the NFL. They are all around the same height as Wilson. In the case of Flutie and Tarkenton, they both had a similar play style and had some measure of success. If anything it was Brees that showed us that short QB's can still play in the NFL.

As far as Mayfield goes he is around 6'1 which is right around where Rodgers, and many other QB's are. Most QB's in the NFL sit anywhere from 6'2-6'4.

Being a smaller QB does have drawbacks as well, lets not pretend that it doesn't. Wilson, and Brees make it work because they have found work arounds. Brees for example has a certain way he navigates in the pocket, and the lineman have to block a certain way to make that arrangement work. Wilson compensates with his mobility, and by really deep drawbacks. He sits way further behind the LOS than any QB I've seen on a consistent basis. This is his compensation method, and it works. Other vertically challenged QB's never develop these work arounds, and coping mechanisms.

In the eyes of scouts it is just one more thing that has to be adjusted for the NFL. Short QB's can work, we've seen it numerous times before. Is it ideal? No, it isn't. Wilson and Brees work because they are exceptional talents, in spite of their height.

As much as I love Russ, I have to agree that Brees really started the modern NFL too short mold breakage. Russ put the lid on the whole subject through!

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