Keep Your Philosophy Consistent

bbsplitter · Jan 12, 2020

When you criticize this team.

You can't list every "hot garbage" player we have on defense and then say "Norton has to go."
You can't say "we should be like the Patriots" all year and then not eat your crow because guess what they are out too.
You can't list every game we started slow and completely ignore the missed throws and 2 yard gains because the players couldn't execute.

The only thing that makes a scheme good is good players. Short of running goal line D on a 3rd and 20, the majority of scheme boils down to having your player be better then the opposing teams player.

The coaches should adjust and hone schemes to match opponents, but in the end that's maybe 30% of it. Let's be honest, most of our disappointments this season boiled down to plays like the completion on Amadi. Those were bound to hurt us at an important time.

Clowney has been our whole pass rush for a while. Wagner and the linebackers have been getting called out as "slow" because that can't chase down slot WR's. I noticed at least 4 plays where Wagner was desperately sprinting to a position that wasn't his due to one of the younger guys lined up wrong.

The truth is, we should be both thanking and chastising PC right now. We should not have gotten this far with the defensive talent that we have. If you give some of the defensive players we have to another coach, they are going to do worse, I guarantee it.

At the same time, PC shares some of the blame for that lack of talent. On top of that, game management has never been his strong suite.

We all have to acknowledge that the draft is a total crap shoot. There is a reason a new team each season has the "hottest players" from the draft, but then the season after than it's 50/50 who sizzles out and who has a career. For the most part, we have had one of the longest running success rates in the NFL in turns of getting wins from said draft picks. Be thankful for that.

There are always ways to improve. Hopefully, Pete realizes that "don't draft a secondary player until late" is a guideline, and not a rule, as sometimes a hot shot rookie really can benefit a secondary that much. Hopefully he realizes that going a little "too unconventional" can get you players like LJ Collier that end up contributing nothing during a possibly super bowl bound season. Or that guy whose name I can't even remember at this point because he wrecked a 4-wheeler and everyone knew was dumb as hell before the draft.

My overall hopefully level-headed response to this season is this. The only coach I think that implicitly deserves to be fired based off this season alone is our Strength and Conditioning coach. This is backed up but the many articles that imply injuries follow him in the boatloads wherever he goes. Pete needs to relinquish game time calls to someone else. I don't know if he is as sharp as he has been, but when the ball is in the offense's hands, Schotty needs an opportunity to use the clock to it's fullest. When the D is on the field, Norton needs to be fully in charge. In the draft we need to focus on the lines, more so defense. We need a slot corner back we can trust. That is quickly becoming the most important defensive position in our scheme. With and without Coleman was a night and day difference. They need to play said slot corner at all appropriate times and not make Bobby chase down slot receivers while trying to cover up the play of younger people. I believe Barton deserves a shot to be alongside Bobby. KJ is still excellent in the screen game, but there were games this year he was out of position A LOT, and did not have the ability to recover.

OrangeGravy · Jan 12, 2020

Good post!

I have plenty of complaints, but I understand that I don't know enough about what they're really trying to do to make even a remotely intelligent suggestion on how to fix it other than upgrading problem players.

The offense and specifically the first half offense has been frustrating forever. A lot of it has to do with having a pretty bad o-line since Pete's been here. You now they want to run the ball and play action off of that. When fall into sustained situations where we can't run the ball, like the last month with backups in upfront, I'm not sure what you can really change to be as effective as everyone wants them to be. Everyone wants to go to the short passing game and that sounds great in theory. Short passing sounds great. It should allow you to get the ball out quick. My question to them is, what kind of short passing game do expect to be able to execute when you can't block virtually at all? We pretty much have to max protect in order to keep from having a free runner on any pass play. When you can only afford to run 3 people on routes because, possibly a 4th with the back releasing when possible, that doesn't leave you many route options that aren't easy to cover. Pick any system you want to run. If you can't block it, it won't be successful. It most certainly won't be consistently successful. The one gripe I can get down with is not being aggressive early. I won't comment on what that should/would look like because I just don't know what they're specifically trying to do.

The real disconnect between some fans and Coaches is that without a really detailed explanation of what they're actually trying to do on offense (Not just the very general, want to run/play action etc...). We can't really tell what causes it to seemingly not produce early in games and why they consistently get production in the 2nd half of games, so fans are left to their own imagination to explain what you see just about every week.

My biggest beef is not investing more effort in securing a solid O-line and depth for it. I think what they want to do on offense gives them little margin for error if it breaks own upfront. That unit isn't built to pass protect to the level required to pass as often as is required when they can't get first downs on the ground.

Defense needs upgrades at a handful of spots

It would be interesting to sit in on the offensive meetings leading up to a game to see what the plan is and then comparing it to what happens during and any attempted adjustments thereafter. That's really the only way to know what the problem truly is and you're never gonna get a coach to divulge enough detail to get anywhere near that truth.

getnasty · Jan 12, 2020

Great post

A.D.I.D.A.S. · Jan 12, 2020

OrangeGravy":1m9bx61i said:
Good post!

The real disconnect between some fans and Coaches is that without a really detailed explanation of what they're actually trying to do on offense (Not just the very general, want to run/play action etc...). We can't really tell what causes it to seemingly not produce early in games and why they consistently get production in the 2nd half of games, so fans are left to their own imagination to explain what you see just about every week.

I disagree and it seems pretty clear to most people: You need to let RW be RW before the second half starts. It's a pretty obvious pattern. His game plan works when you have the LoB. The problem is that he is stubborn and conservative and refuses to change his first half game plan that is exactly the same every week. JMO though....

flmmkrz · Jan 12, 2020

bbsplitter":2u2beovo said:
When you criticize this team.

You can't list every "hot garbage" player we have on defense and then say "Norton has to go."
.

I disagree with this part. I think you can have both things be true. That there isn't enough defensive talent but that the coaching is also not good enough. Just the nature of the salary cap there are going to be weaknesses on each unit, but you have to have a good game plan in place to try to limit the damage. I think our weaknesses were too often exploited. Todays game plan on Adams was a good example. Flowers isn't good and there was no game plan to help him with Adams.

bbsplitter · Jan 12, 2020

flmmkrz":yv0njac4 said:
bbsplitter":yv0njac4 said:

When you criticize this team.

You can't list every "hot garbage" player we have on defense and then say "Norton has to go."
.

Click to expand...

I disagree with this part. I think you can have both things be true. That there isn't enough defensive talent but that the coaching is also not good enough. Just the nature of the salary cap there are going to be weaknesses on each unit, but you have to have a good game plan in place to try to limit the damage. I think our weaknesses were too often exploited. Todays game plan on Adams was a good example. Flowers isn't good and there was no game plan to help him with Adams.

I just don't know how you properly evaluate Norton then? I hear "this was an awesome play by GB because Seahawks defender (insert name here) was out of position." All game I heard that.

I don't hear "man if the Seahawks just ran a modified 3-4 in this situation, it would really shut down what GB is trying to do."

What I am saying is, you can't ask Norton to scheme for everything this forum is blaming on the defense.
For Example:
Amadi get's beat by Adams.
Forum: Just scheme around that! Make sure you always put a safety over Amadi to help with Adams?
Also Forum: Don't leave Flowers on his own! He sucks!
Also Also Forum: Our linebackers are slow
Also Also Also Forum: Our D-Line is producing no pressure - just scheme around that and send more linebackers!

There is a point in time where it just is not logically possible to scheme around all the player deficiencies that everyone is pointing out. If don't send more linebackers to blitz, our pass rush suffers. If we send more LB's on blitzes, our coverage suffers. If we don't double a certain receiver, another weakness presents itself on the opposite side. At least review Norton's work when he is in a situation where it's even POSSIBLE for him to succeed.

OrangeGravy · Jan 12, 2020

bbsplitter":150d7yyr said:
flmmkrz":150d7yyr said:

bbsplitter":150d7yyr said:

When you criticize this team.

You can't list every "hot garbage" player we have on defense and then say "Norton has to go."
.

Click to expand...

I disagree with this part. I think you can have both things be true. That there isn't enough defensive talent but that the coaching is also not good enough. Just the nature of the salary cap there are going to be weaknesses on each unit, but you have to have a good game plan in place to try to limit the damage. I think our weaknesses were too often exploited. Todays game plan on Adams was a good example. Flowers isn't good and there was no game plan to help him with Adams.

Click to expand...

I just don't know how you properly evaluate Norton then? I hear "this was an awesome play by GB because Seahawks defender (insert name here) was out of position." All game I heard that.

I don't hear "man if the Seahawks just ran a modified 3-4 in this situation, it would really shut down what GB is trying to do."

What I am saying is, you can't ask Norton to scheme for everything this forum is blaming on the defense.
For Example:
Amadi get's beat by Adams.
Forum: Just scheme around that! Make sure you always put a safety over Amadi to help with Adams?
Also Forum: Don't leave Flowers on his own! He sucks!
Also Also Forum: Our linebackers are slow
Also Also Also Forum: Our D-Line is producing no pressure - just scheme around that and send more linebackers!

There is a point in time where it just is not logically possible to scheme around all the player deficiencies that everyone is pointing out. If don't send more linebackers to blitz, our pass rush suffers. If we send more LB's on blitzes, our coverage suffers. If we don't double a certain receiver, another weakness presents itself on the opposite side. At least review Norton's work when he is in a situation where it's even POSSIBLE for him to succeed.

Not only that, but tell me how we should scheme around the problem. If you can't, you don't even know if your complaint is valid. How do you know they didn't scheme around a particular problem and the player(s) involved in that play didn't do what they were supposed to? Nobody on this forum knows enough about football to even begin to know the answers to any of those questions. That's why the incessant complaining gets annoying. Everyone is frustrated by all the same things, just don't spout off like you actually know any of the why's or how's of situation.

OrangeGravy · Jan 12, 2020

A.D.I.D.A.S.":3hkzvax8 said:
OrangeGravy":3hkzvax8 said:

Good post!

The real disconnect between some fans and Coaches is that without a really detailed explanation of what they're actually trying to do on offense (Not just the very general, want to run/play action etc...). We can't really tell what causes it to seemingly not produce early in games and why they consistently get production in the 2nd half of games, so fans are left to their own imagination to explain what you see just about every week.

Click to expand...

I disagree and it seems pretty clear to most people: You need to let RW be RW before the second half starts. It's a pretty obvious pattern. His game plan works when you have the LoB. The problem is that he is stubborn and conservative and refuses to change his first half game plan that is exactly the same every week. JMO though....

I'll accept your premise if you can tell what letting RW be RW actually is and how you go about that? Also tell me how they're not letting him be him currently?

Fade · Jan 12, 2020

bbsplitter":1hslj59w said:
When you criticize this team.

You can't list every "hot garbage" player we have on defense and then say "Norton has to go."
You can't say "we should be like the Patriots" all year and then not eat your crow because guess what they are out too.
You can't list every game we started slow and completely ignore the missed throws and 2 yard gains because the players couldn't execute.

The only thing that makes a scheme good is good players. Short of running goal line D on a 3rd and 20, the majority of scheme boils down to having your player be better then the opposing teams player.

The coaches should adjust and hone schemes to match opponents, but in the end that's maybe 30% of it. Let's be honest, most of our disappointments this season boiled down to plays like the completion on Amadi. Those were bound to hurt us at an important time.

Clowney has been our whole pass rush for a while. Wagner and the linebackers have been getting called out as "slow" because that can't chase down slot WR's. I noticed at least 4 plays where Wagner was desperately sprinting to a position that wasn't his due to one of the younger guys lined up wrong.

The truth is, we should be both thanking and chastising PC right now. We should not have gotten this far with the defensive talent that we have. If you give some of the defensive players we have to another coach, they are going to do worse, I guarantee it.

At the same time, PC shares some of the blame for that lack of talent. On top of that, game management has never been his strong suite.

We all have to acknowledge that the draft is a total crap shoot. There is a reason a new team each season has the "hottest players" from the draft, but then the season after than it's 50/50 who sizzles out and who has a career. For the most part, we have had one of the longest running success rates in the NFL in turns of getting wins from said draft picks. Be thankful for that.

There are always ways to improve. Hopefully, Pete realizes that "don't draft a secondary player until late" is a guideline, and not a rule, as sometimes a hot shot rookie really can benefit a secondary that much. Hopefully he realizes that going a little "too unconventional" can get you players like LJ Collier that end up contributing nothing during a possibly super bowl bound season. Or that guy whose name I can't even remember at this point because he wrecked a 4-wheeler and everyone knew was dumb as hell before the draft.

My overall hopefully level-headed response to this season is this. The only coach I think that implicitly deserves to be fired based off this season alone is our Strength and Conditioning coach. This is backed up but the many articles that imply injuries follow him in the boatloads wherever he goes. Pete needs to relinquish game time calls to someone else. I don't know if he is as sharp as he has been, but when the ball is in the offense's hands, Schotty needs an opportunity to use the clock to it's fullest. When the D is on the field, Norton needs to be fully in charge. In the draft we need to focus on the lines, more so defense. We need a slot corner back we can trust. That is quickly becoming the most important defensive position in our scheme. With and without Coleman was a night and day difference. They need to play said slot corner at all appropriate times and not make Bobby chase down slot receivers while trying to cover up the play of younger people. I believe Barton deserves a shot to be alongside Bobby. KJ is still excellent in the screen game, but there were games this year he was out of position A LOT, and did not have the ability to recover.

Ken Norton was terrible in Oakland, and is terrible in Seattle.

In both spots his defenses literally got worse the more games he coordinated for them. They never improved, not once, year to year.

So I would like for you to keep your "philosphy consistent" and not celebrate when he is inevitable fired. Don't cheerlead the next hire, Instead be sure tell us all how it was a big mistake for letting him go. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ken Norton is the defensive version of Tom Cable, but worse. Cable at least can say he had some top flight running teams at multiple destinations. Norton has never had top flight anything as a DC, and brings zero ingenuity to the table.

bbsplitter · Jan 12, 2020

Fade":28la384j said:
bbsplitter":28la384j said:

When you criticize this team.

You can't list every "hot garbage" player we have on defense and then say "Norton has to go."
You can't say "we should be like the Patriots" all year and then not eat your crow because guess what they are out too.
You can't list every game we started slow and completely ignore the missed throws and 2 yard gains because the players couldn't execute.

The only thing that makes a scheme good is good players. Short of running goal line D on a 3rd and 20, the majority of scheme boils down to having your player be better then the opposing teams player.

The coaches should adjust and hone schemes to match opponents, but in the end that's maybe 30% of it. Let's be honest, most of our disappointments this season boiled down to plays like the completion on Amadi. Those were bound to hurt us at an important time.

Clowney has been our whole pass rush for a while. Wagner and the linebackers have been getting called out as "slow" because that can't chase down slot WR's. I noticed at least 4 plays where Wagner was desperately sprinting to a position that wasn't his due to one of the younger guys lined up wrong.

The truth is, we should be both thanking and chastising PC right now. We should not have gotten this far with the defensive talent that we have. If you give some of the defensive players we have to another coach, they are going to do worse, I guarantee it.

At the same time, PC shares some of the blame for that lack of talent. On top of that, game management has never been his strong suite.

We all have to acknowledge that the draft is a total crap shoot. There is a reason a new team each season has the "hottest players" from the draft, but then the season after than it's 50/50 who sizzles out and who has a career. For the most part, we have had one of the longest running success rates in the NFL in turns of getting wins from said draft picks. Be thankful for that.

There are always ways to improve. Hopefully, Pete realizes that "don't draft a secondary player until late" is a guideline, and not a rule, as sometimes a hot shot rookie really can benefit a secondary that much. Hopefully he realizes that going a little "too unconventional" can get you players like LJ Collier that end up contributing nothing during a possibly super bowl bound season. Or that guy whose name I can't even remember at this point because he wrecked a 4-wheeler and everyone knew was dumb as hell before the draft.

My overall hopefully level-headed response to this season is this. The only coach I think that implicitly deserves to be fired based off this season alone is our Strength and Conditioning coach. This is backed up but the many articles that imply injuries follow him in the boatloads wherever he goes. Pete needs to relinquish game time calls to someone else. I don't know if he is as sharp as he has been, but when the ball is in the offense's hands, Schotty needs an opportunity to use the clock to it's fullest. When the D is on the field, Norton needs to be fully in charge. In the draft we need to focus on the lines, more so defense. We need a slot corner back we can trust. That is quickly becoming the most important defensive position in our scheme. With and without Coleman was a night and day difference. They need to play said slot corner at all appropriate times and not make Bobby chase down slot receivers while trying to cover up the play of younger people. I believe Barton deserves a shot to be alongside Bobby. KJ is still excellent in the screen game, but there were games this year he was out of position A LOT, and did not have the ability to recover.

Click to expand...

Ken Norton was terrible in Oakland, and is terrible in Seattle.

In both spots his defenses literally got worse the more games he coordinated for them. They never improved, not once, year to year.

So I would like for you to keep your "philosphy consistent" and not celebrate when he is inevitable fired. Don't cheerlead the next hire, Instead be sure tell us all how it was a big mistake for letting him go. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ken Norton is the defensive version of Tom Cable, but worse. Cable at least can say he had some top flight running teams at multiple destinations. Norton has never had top flight anything as a DC, and brings zero ingenuity to the table.

I don't know why you think I wouldn't want Norton to leave if he shows he can't get it done. My whole point was that you have to be able to evaluate him for his time here. And if the whole forum is saying "this player sucks, this player sucks, this player sucks", it's impossible to then ask "why couldn't Norton get it done?" without being hypocritical.

Yes, he didn't do to well in Oakland. People forget though that he is still fairly inexperienced as a full coordinator, and it's only his first year back. Give him some better players, then evaluate him. If he deserves to go, then he deserves to go.

Keep Your Philosophy Consistent

bbsplitter

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OrangeGravy

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getnasty

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A.D.I.D.A.S.

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flmmkrz

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bbsplitter

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OrangeGravy

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OrangeGravy

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Fade

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bbsplitter

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