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Would you trade Carroll/Wilson for Reid/Mahomes today?

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  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Largent80 wrote:Lol.... Carroll can't win without an elite defense.

    Last year's defense was damn near league worst.
    Team went 11-5 and won a playoff game.

    Seattle had a hard time getting past the Philadelphia Eagles. A team that lost their starting QB early in the game -- the backup QB was over 40 years old and was a career journeyman. Since 2015 the Seahawks have more losses in the playoffs than wins.

    We can also talk about how Carroll helped build that near league worst defense. Since 2015 the Seahawks defense has declined in each and every year in just about every metric. One of the biggest culperates was Pete's inability to draft or keep defensive lineman that are worth anything. Or we'd get a big name and have that player just be a poor scheme fit like Sheldon Richardson. Our interior line has also been a huge issue. We've been trying to solve this issue for years now and we remain unable to.

    Personally I think Carroll has peaked. I do not think he is capable of winning another championship, and I do not believe he will ever win another again.

    Why won't he? He doesn't have the same advantages afforded to him that he had when he first came into the NFL. The first thing we must mention is he had an inside scoop on just about every player he drafted. Most of those guys he picked up in his first few years he had some kind of personal history with. The second thing Carroll took advantage of is his scheme. In the Seahawks scheme, Carroll favored attributes and player types that were considered to be nothing more than role players. We're talking big cornerbacks such as Sherman, Maxwell and Browner. A safety that was considered too slow, too stiff and were seen as a weird safety linebacker hybrid in Kam, and quick, undersized pass rushers such as Brock, Irvin, Clemons, and even Avril.

    With the advantage he was afforded of inside information and an unorthodox scheme, Carroll was able to assemble the best defense of the modern era. Unfortunately his success didn't go unnoticed. Other teams saw what Carroll was doing and poached our staff, stole or schemes and went after the types of players that previously nobody touched. In addition tot his he had to pay his Quarterback. I'm not convinced that he could ever replicate that on another team.

    Since our SuperBowl runs we've gotten a glimpse of some major flaws in his system and the way he goes about coaching the game. I think that Russell Wilson covers quite a flaws that exist within his system and coaching. I don't think Carroll is a bad coach, in some ways he's very good. I just think that this point in time he is a Marty Schottenheimer figure.


    Agreed! Couldn’t have said it better myself!
    TheLegendOfBoom
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  • Not buying that...Marshawn Lynch was already playing for the Bills, Hell, Tarvaris Jackson was the QB, so IF Pete Carroll had an inside?, why the hell did he go after $10,000,000 Flynn?, why did Doug Baldwin go UNDRAFTED?, Why did he wait until the 5th round to Draft Richard Sherman (risky move for someone who was supposedly in the know)?, Why did he wait so long to Draft Kam Chancellor? (ALSO a risky wait & see)......No, I don't agree with how he's NOT utilizing Wilsons talents to the max, but him having an inside on players from the get-go?, hell no.
    scutterhawk
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  • scutterhawk wrote:Not buying that...Marshawn Lynch was already playing for the Bills, Hell, Tarvaris Jackson was the QB, so IF Pete Carroll had an inside?, why the hell did he go after $10,000,000 Flynn?, why did Doug Baldwin go UNDRAFTED?, Why did he wait until the 5th round to Draft Richard Sherman (risky move for someone who was supposedly in the know)?, Why did he wait so long to Draft Kam Chancellor? (ALSO a risky wait & see)......No, I don't agree with how he's NOT utilizing Wilsons talents to the max, but him having an inside on players from the get-go?, hell no.

    Carroll did have a look that most coaches don't get in the NFL and you cannot deny that. He followed some of these players from the time they were in high school all throughout their collegiate career. He stood in the homes of some of the players he drafted trying to pich USC Trojan football. Pete Carroll scouted some of these players from high school and continued to scout them during game day planning. Carroll also had contacts with many of the collegiate coaches at that time. In fact many of our starters that season that were brought in under Carroll or drafted by him were from PAC-12 schools, or schools that USC played against frequently such as Notre Dame.

    If we look at Carroll's defensive scheme corners such as Sherman, Browner, and safeties such as Kam Chancellor were seen as fringe NFL players and in the case of Browner he had been out of the NFL for years. People weren't even sure Chancellor was going to be drafted. People didn't know whether to peg him as a LB prospect or a safety in the NFL. He was seen as a weird tweener.

    Seattle loved their big corners, and Carroll started that trend in the NFL. I've also seen safeties in the same vein as Chancellor being employed more on certain teams. Carroll set a trend after Seattle's defensive dominance in 2013 and 14. Carroll had both had knowledge that most coaches in the NFL and a defensive scheme that utilized players arch-types that were considered strictly role players. Unfortunately though what was novel in 2013 is now in vogue.

    As far as Wilson goes that was on our GM, Schneider. In fact he wanted Wilson with our first pick. Flynn was seen as competition and as an immediate upgrade over T-Jack who wasn't getting the job done. He was also signed before the NFL draft, not after.
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  • Rat wrote:This is only a debate among Seahawk fans. Nobody else is even considering Carroll/Wilson over Reid/Mahomes.

    As for the Carroll vs Reid part: I really don't care that much. I've had the opinion for a while that Reid is overrated as a head coach (good for him for last season though). Pete would certainly be one of the first names I'd mention after Belichick when listing the best coaches of the past decade, but the current version... MAYBE fringe top-10. I don't want him fired or anything, but I wouldn't be super upset if he decided that this upcoming season was going to be his last. And while Reid is six years younger than Carroll, Reid is not exactly a paragon of health. In my mind, their age difference is only represented by a number. If coordinators are coming along too, I'll take Reid, but the head coach part of this argument isn't enough for me to definitively answer the main question.

    As for Russ vs Mahomes… yeah, you take Mahomes. They're both elite in virtually every metric. They're both high-end leaders, they win, they can make all the throws, they're both very improvisational and can make plays on their feet. Even those who feel an obligation to rip Mahomes to prop Russ can't even come up with any criticisms that actually involve his play, it's just the "he's got good players around him", "you can't prove he'd be as good on another team", blah, blah, blah. You'd have to be a special kind of delusional to not see how special he is. He would be spectacular in any system. If people want to debate who is "better" right now, then whatever, but what cannot be debated is that Mahomes is seven years younger, so give me that. Taking the younger guy going forward would in no way diminish what Russ has done for this franchise.


    This is by far the best reply on this post very we said put.

    Now a better question is which pair is preferable to lead a team for a ten year period Reid/Mahomes or Carroll/Wilson?
    However, we have only seen two years of Mahomes as a starter in that time he has shown more than Russ,did his first of course the Chiefs attempt to win with offense while the Seahawks attempt win with defense.
    Last edited by tersal on Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • tersal wrote:
    Rat wrote:This is only a debate among Seahawk fans. Nobody else is even considering Carroll/Wilson over Reid/Mahomes.

    As for the Carroll vs Reid part: I really don't care that much. I've had the opinion for a while that Reid is overrated as a head coach (good for him for last season though). Pete would certainly be one of the first names I'd mention after Belichick when listing the best coaches of the past decade, but the current version... MAYBE fringe top-10. I don't want him fired or anything, but I wouldn't be super upset if he decided that this upcoming season was going to be his last. And while Reid is six years younger than Carroll, Reid is not exactly a paragon of health. In my mind, their age difference is only represented by a number. If coordinators are coming along too, I'll take Reid, but the head coach part of this argument isn't enough for me to definitively answer the main question.

    As for Russ vs Mahomes… yeah, you take Mahomes. They're both elite in virtually every metric. They're both high-end leaders, they win, they can make all the throws, they're both very improvisational and can make plays on their feet. Even those who feel an obligation to rip Mahomes to prop Russ can't even come up with any criticisms that actually involve his play, it's just the "he's got good players around him", "you can't prove he'd be as good on another team", blah, blah, blah. You'd have to be a special kind of delusional to not see how special he is. He would be spectacular in any system. If people want to debate who is "better" right now, then whatever, but what cannot be debated is that Mahomes is seven years younger, so give me that. Taking the younger guy going forward would in no way diminish what Russ has done for this franchise.


    This is by far the best reply on this post very we said put.

    Now a better question is which pair is preferable to lead a team for a ten year period Reid/Mahomes or Carroll/Wilson?
    two years. However, we have only seen two years of Mahomes as a starter in that time he has shown more than Russ,did his first of course the Chiefs attempt to build with offense while the Seahawks attempy to build defense.



    One other difference between Wilson and Mahomes is Wilson lost games 0 Mahomes 3. IN 2 years as a starter Mahomes has lost 3 games due to injury. That could be bigger than you think. Especially if he was on our team with our oline and not with his top 3 pass blocking oline anymore.
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  • Answer: No


    Would you take Brady/Belichick from 10 years ago for Carroll/Wilson today?
    BullHawk33
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  • John63 wrote:One other difference between Wilson and Mahomes is Wilson lost games 0 Mahomes 3. IN 2 years as a starter Mahomes has lost 3 games due to injury. That could be bigger than you think. Especially if he was on our team with our oline and not with his top 3 pass blocking oline anymore.


    Okay but how many games is Russell Wilson going to miss over Mahomes when he likely RETIRES before Mahomes because he is SEVEN YEARS OLDER? (Hint: there are 16 games in a season).

    This would be a really interesting debate if these guys were the same age or if Mahomes were not so ridiculously productive. But they're not and Mahomes is a every bit the surgeon with the pigskin that Wilson is (if not more so). Instead, it's a just a hypothetical where people are either A) choosing the player that would likely be best for the team or B) choosing the player they've become more attached to. Let's be real, guys.
    BirdsCommaAngry
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  • BirdsCommaAngry wrote:
    John63 wrote:One other difference between Wilson and Mahomes is Wilson lost games 0 Mahomes 3. IN 2 years as a starter Mahomes has lost 3 games due to injury. That could be bigger than you think. Especially if he was on our team with our oline and not with his top 3 pass blocking oline anymore.


    Okay but how many games is Russell Wilson going to miss over Mahomes when he likely RETIRES before Mahomes because he is SEVEN YEARS OLDER? (Hint: there are 16 games in a season).

    This would be a really interesting debate if these guys were the same age or if Mahomes were not so ridiculously productive. But they're not and Mahomes is a every bit the surgeon with the pigskin that Wilson is (if not more so). Instead, it's a just a hypothetical where people are either A) choosing the player that would likely be best for the team or B) choosing the player they've become more attached to. Let's be real, guys.



    really that is you reply retirement? wow talk about stretching. Actually for me I am choosing the guy best for the team. We have nothing that says Mahomes could produce on our team, with what we have. Wilson can and has. Also remember this trade would be with Mahomes current new salary so even less money to make the team better. He does not have his top 3 oline, top 3 talent. He instead has what is considered a bottom 3 oline and mid tier talent.

    So right now till I see Mahomes without all that talent around him I would not trade Wilson for him. Once we see how he handles not having all that talent we will see. Let's remember this is in the same system with the same HC that Made Smith look like an all pro.
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  • Pete has become criminally underrated by the Seahawks community.
    knownone
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  • knownone wrote:Pete has become criminally underrated by the Seahawks community.


    He has turned into Marty Schottenheimer only with a super bowl win.
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  • knownone wrote:Pete has become criminally underrated by the Seahawks community.



    I do not believe PC is underrated. I give him credit for what he did 2011-2015. I also give him blame for what has happened 2015 to now. He is a tail of to Coaches. the coach who knew all the player sin the draft, and could get what he wanted to run the system he wanted. and the Coach who no longer has that advantage and is not capable of or willing to use a system for what he has, and draft impact players consistently.
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  • Oh hell no not with Mahomes new contract
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  • John63 wrote:really that is you reply retirement? wow talk about stretching. Actually for me I am choosing the guy best for the team. We have nothing that says Mahomes could produce on our team, with what we have. Wilson can and has. Also remember this trade would be with Mahomes current new salary so even less money to make the team better. He does not have his top 3 oline, top 3 talent. He instead has what is considered a bottom 3 oline and mid tier talent.

    So right now till I see Mahomes without all that talent around him I would not trade Wilson for him. Once we see how he handles not having all that talent we will see. Let's remember this is in the same system with the same HC that Made Smith look like an all pro.


    A stretch to think a player with seven years on another will retire sooner? A stretch to think an active player is currently contributing more to his team than a retired player? How are you even defining a stretch, John?

    Even if our o-line is so bad that it gives Mahomes a lot of trouble, an o-line can be fixed! Russell Wilson, on the other hand, can't be made younger and his prime can't be extended.
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  • BirdsCommaAngry wrote:
    John63 wrote:really that is you reply retirement? wow talk about stretching. Actually for me I am choosing the guy best for the team. We have nothing that says Mahomes could produce on our team, with what we have. Wilson can and has. Also remember this trade would be with Mahomes current new salary so even less money to make the team better. He does not have his top 3 oline, top 3 talent. He instead has what is considered a bottom 3 oline and mid tier talent.

    So right now till I see Mahomes without all that talent around him I would not trade Wilson for him. Once we see how he handles not having all that talent we will see. Let's remember this is in the same system with the same HC that Made Smith look like an all pro.


    A stretch to think a player with seven years on another will retire sooner? A stretch to think an active player is currently contributing more to his team than a retired player? How are you even defining a stretch, John?

    Even if our o-line is so bad that it gives Mahomes a lot of trouble, an o-line can be fixed! Russell Wilson, on the other hand, can't be made younger and his prime can't be extended.


    not a stretch to think a player who in 2 years as a starter missed 3 games, while another with 8 years has never missed a game. For all you BS about retirement okay and Mahomess could get hurt and be done in 1 year.

    As to you premises an oline can be fixed, yeah maybe but while you at it fixing a bottom oline you need to hope your highest paid QB does not get hurt, and then while doing that you need to get that top 5 talent around him, and that defense which was way better than ours. You see once again you miss the biggest point, we don't know what Mahomes can do without all his toys and talent on both defense and offense. Talent we don't have.


    Here is what we knwo for a fact

    Mahones has a top 3 oline, top 3 talent on offense adn a defense ranked 10 places higher than ours and a system built for him.. eh is the highest paid QB in the league and has lost 3 games to injury. all this in s system that made Smith look like an all pro. We have no clue how he would look without all that. With is price tage it would take a long time if at all to replicate what he has now and o facts to say he can perform without it.

    Wilson has proven he can perform without a top oline, top defense, top talent and is cheaper.

    So sorry you can dream twist facts or whatever but this would be a bad move for us. Age is not the only issue here, and that is the only thing you really have. What good is him being younger when he is more injury prone. What good is his being younger when he costs so much more, what good is his being younger when we have no clue how he will perform without all his advantages. Sorry a bird in the had is worth 2 in the bush.
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  • knownone wrote:Pete has become criminally underrated by the Seahawks community.


    I AGREE 100%.
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