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John and Pete are losing me

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Re: John and Pete are losing me
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:08 pm
  • jammerhawk wrote:What a load of negativity the usual posters are offloading in this thread.

    To me it's clear the team has wanted to find replacements for aging and injured safeties and have been for the most part unsuccessful. They have drafted players with potential but with perhaps insufficient playing foot speed and their rookies have not developed as expected. Cedric Thompson was an instinctively solid DB but was too slow, as well it's clear that Lano Hill is also too slow to be as effective as desired. Were those picks fails? Perhaps they were, but they were part of a determined attempt to find the guys they want to play the scheme they want to play. I remain curious about Blair who has potential but poor discipline and needs to be more disciplined in his coverage or he too will be potentially regarded as a draft mistake. Acquiring a legitimate All Pro S is something they believed they needed to do, it's OK to disagree but an honest assessment would reveal the dropoff in defensive performance is directly related to the dropoff in S play. Adams is just 24 and has been a Pro Bowl player for 2 of 3 seasons in the league, he to them is a keystone piece that allows the team to return to defensive superiority. I think he was an expensive addition but let's assess what the costs would have been to trade up for a player that wasn't as yet proven as Adams certainly has demonstrated? I like the trade, but would still like to see some DLine additions.

    The only genuine mistake in drafting they've made was McDowell, and that was for pure character reasons. They clearly should have been alert to the potential of 'issues' arising from his character but could never have anticipated he'd never play a down because of a career ending head injury caused by his own patent stupidity. At present I doubt that it is remotely fair to write off Collier just yet and am happily encouraged by their draft picks this season. it's easy to throw rocks and reflect back upon shoulda, woulda, coulda type thinking but this year's player voted top 100 shows the present team with 6 top 100 players in their starting group.

    To me this FO is still doing their job better than has ever been done here before. They field a competitive squad every season that annually makes the playoffs. They have corrected a cap crunch that could have been limiting going forward. They have a franchise QB, MLB, & SS, a quality LT, and FS, potentially 3 good CBs, a strong running RB corps, at least two very good WRs with the possibility of more. Their TE group is one with a lot of potential that could be exceptional. They have the cap space to still make moves if deemed necessary. We will see if those moves are needed or if their younger players can show improvement.

    It's easy to be critical when you are watching, and perhaps are biased by mediots who pretend to know more than two proven personnel managers and a quality coaching staff. Look at their result and compare to those team around the league that are not always drafting 24th or worse each season. The FO is doing a darn good job to my mind.


    It's also easy to be critical when you have one of the statistically worst defenses in the NFL.
    MontanaHawk05
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Re: John and Pete are losing me
Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:43 pm
  • That's true and when the pass D has dropped off the charts from being elite to being simply inadequate you fix the pass D by either acquiring a pass rush or improving the DBs or both.

    JS acquired Dunbar and then Dunbar got damnably stupid, leaving the team up in air with a Commish suspension. JS apparently knowing this then improved the S group by adding Adams a proven elite player. Both players were at or near the top of their respective positions last season. They've been trying to fix the pass rush as well w/o present success, drafts, trades, and FA. If they had paid Clark then they'd have had a cap crunch still. Respectfully, I think they approached this situation properly and we will see about Clowney, Griffen, Ngokue, or ? being added before the end of the preseason.

    The pass rush is still a work in progress but you'd have to think JS/PC are not done yet.

    I wonder what the neg Nellies will say if the team re-acquires Clowney or Griffen, and Dunbar is successful with his suspension appeal? It's early days yet.
    jammerhawk
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Re: John and Pete are losing me
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:59 pm
  • This thread serves a purpose ........... for venting.

    Not everyone is on the same page with Pete and John. So it is common to come across fans who find themselves lost and caught up in negative narratives.

    Clearly, Jody Allen is not among those lost souls.

    Unfolding events confirm that Pete Carroll and John Schneider continue to enjoy Jody Allen's support and trust.

    I find comfort in the management and future of these Seattle Seahawks.
    Jville
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Re: John and Pete are losing me
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:It's also easy to be critical when you have one of the statistically worst defenses in the NFL.

    Whether something is easy doesn't seem like the right metric here. Looking at just the 2019 defense with blinders on about the rest of the team, other seasons, or personnel factors is a very narrow view. The only reason I can see for intentionally choosing that particular very narrow viewpoint is to skew the overall picture.

    jammerhawk wrote:The only genuine mistake in drafting they've made was McDowell, and that was for pure character reasons. They clearly should have been alert to the potential of 'issues' arising from his character but could never have anticipated he'd never play a down because of a career ending head injury caused by his own patent stupidity.

    In my view McDowell is clearly a case of bad luck. Taking players with question marks surrounding them is a good strategy for getting value out of lower picks, and I think them "readjusting" that view in 2018 to instead take a very safe player in Penny was the actual mistake.
    AgentDib
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Re: John and Pete are losing me
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:50 pm
  • Where I disagree with that is the team has been pretty solid in picking good RBs, Penny has been an exception so far, but has the 'health excuse'. Besides he's had his exceptional moments, as few as they have been. He may in time prove to be a quality late 1st round addition. Fingers are crossed.

    McDowell was a pure bust, and for sure the team was flat out unlucky with him. However, he had all sorts of poor character flags which rendered him a high risk pick. In the end I agree with your assessment of risk to potential reward, but when things go bad you had evidence the pick was high risk and are forced to eat your mistake.

    It's clear I agree totally with Jville.
    jammerhawk
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Re: John and Pete are losing me
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:14 pm
  • AgentDib wrote:Looking at just the 2019 defense with blinders on about the rest of the team, other seasons, or personnel factors is a very narrow view.


    So pointing out that a team has one of the league's worst defenses is a "very narrow view".

    It's half the team, Dib.
    MontanaHawk05
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Re: John and Pete are losing me
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:25 pm
  • The defence is where the $ and picks were spent this off season and there is likely more to come.
    jammerhawk
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Re: John and Pete are losing me
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:20 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:What a load of negativity the usual posters are offloading in this thread.

    To me it's clear the team has wanted to find replacements for aging and injured safeties and have been for the most part unsuccessful. They have drafted players with potential but with perhaps insufficient playing foot speed and their rookies have not developed as expected. Cedric Thompson was an instinctively solid DB but was too slow, as well it's clear that Lano Hill is also too slow to be as effective as desired. Were those picks fails? Perhaps they were, but they were part of a determined attempt to find the guys they want to play the scheme they want to play. I remain curious about Blair who has potential but poor discipline and needs to be more disciplined in his coverage or he too will be potentially regarded as a draft mistake. Acquiring a legitimate All Pro S is something they believed they needed to do, it's OK to disagree but an honest assessment would reveal the dropoff in defensive performance is directly related to the dropoff in S play. Adams is just 24 and has been a Pro Bowl player for 2 of 3 seasons in the league, he to them is a keystone piece that allows the team to return to defensive superiority. I think he was an expensive addition but let's assess what the costs would have been to trade up for a player that wasn't as yet proven as Adams certainly has demonstrated? I like the trade, but would still like to see some DLine additions.

    The only genuine mistake in drafting they've made was McDowell, and that was for pure character reasons. They clearly should have been alert to the potential of 'issues' arising from his character but could never have anticipated he'd never play a down because of a career ending head injury caused by his own patent stupidity. At present I doubt that it is remotely fair to write off Collier just yet and am happily encouraged by their draft picks this season. it's easy to throw rocks and reflect back upon shoulda, woulda, coulda type thinking but this year's player voted top 100 shows the present team with 6 top 100 players in their starting group.

    To me this FO is still doing their job better than has ever been done here before. They field a competitive squad every season that annually makes the playoffs. They have corrected a cap crunch that could have been limiting going forward. They have a franchise QB, MLB, & SS, a quality LT, and FS, potentially 3 good CBs, a strong running RB corps, at least two very good WRs with the possibility of more. Their TE group is one with a lot of potential that could be exceptional. They have the cap space to still make moves if deemed necessary. We will see if those moves are needed or if their younger players can show improvement.

    It's easy to be critical when you are watching, and perhaps are biased by mediots who pretend to know more than two proven personnel managers and a quality coaching staff. Look at their result and compare to those team around the league that are not always drafting 24th or worse each season. The FO is doing a darn good job to my mind.


    It's also easy to be critical when you have one of the statistically worst defenses in the NFL.


    They could rarely hold the field when it mattered. They had plenty of offense last year; this team could have put up 35 points a game and basically be in the same situation because they just let the other team score seemingly at will. Example of how this works is the 2018 Chiefs.
    bmorepunk
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Re: John and Pete are losing me
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:11 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:So pointing out that a team has one of the league's worst defenses is a "very narrow view".

    The thread is about Pete and John's overall merits. I agree our 2019 defense was bad, but if you want to break it down by units then talking about the performance of just that unit is 1/30th (10 seasons * 3 units) of their tenure here. There's a lot of banked evidence that they have an excellent understanding of how to put together an NFL defense, and they have attempted to address it this off-season by bringing in a top corner, top safety, and spending the #27 and #40 on defense.

    It's certainly worth discussing why our defense was abnormally bad last year, but using it as a single sentence summation of the FO just strikes me as misleading.

    jammerhawk wrote:Where I disagree with that is the team has been pretty solid in picking good RBs, Penny has been an exception so far, but has the 'health excuse'. Besides he's had his exceptional moments, as few as they have been. He may in time prove to be a quality late 1st round addition. Fingers are crossed.

    Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Penny is a bust (yet). John has been public recently about how the decision to draft Penny was in part due to how safe of a pick he looked like with an excellent health report from the docs and huge college production with no injuries. Having Penny get injured multiple times in the NFL is bad luck of a sort, but I think it's also an example of why taking the "safe" option is usually a mistake, because there is no such thing as safe when it comes to NFL rookies.

    What decision makers are actually doing in this situations is adding a risk cap to their process when they should be chasing value regardless of risk. In a bricklayer vs. gladiator situation with only one winner at the end it's important to be risk seeking the entire way as a bunch of safe decisions may prevent a 5 win season but will also likely never lead to a championship. If we took a McDowell every year then the ones that didn't play a snap in the NFL should be more than offset by those who got it together and became key difference makers. I'm worried they learned the wrong lesson from McDowell.
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