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The difference between PC and Belichick

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  • It seems to me that Pete Carroll and Bill Belichick, with all their considerable success, share far more similarities in common than differences. But these constant and narrow preoccupations with lists and rankings as to who is better than who and boring arguments over pecking order corral many threads into small holding pens of contention.

    So much of the posting is paralyzed by an extremely narrow preoccupation with the same adversarial discussion. Many of these threads raise doubt about poster comprehension with regards to mandatory collaboration among coaches and players and front office. The collaboration that is required every year to assemble and build a successful team. This thread, along with others similarly trapped in the same narrow theme, serves as a reminder of the presence of a very narrow view preoccupied with standing and status. A very small view that is the outcome of an absence of sufficient grasp in what characterizes a team and / or how to build one.

    Thankfully, there are many postings with far more expansive outlooks and contributions that keep the forum alive. My thanks to each and every one of you with something to contribute and post. It's what keeps me coming back.
    Jville
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  • Mad Dog wrote: Didn't the Niners just make the Superbowl with the hawks philosophy? Strong run game, play action passing, dominating defense?

    There's nothing wrong with the philosophy. It works. People are arguing about style points these days.


    The philosophy works when you have the personnel to execute it. The problem is never deriving from it when you dont.
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  • LOL ................ There was a lot of talk about the Seahawks leaning on a heavy use of the base defense last year ... driven by personnel performances and events.

    Some of the poorly thought out criticism thrown around the forum lacks valid foundation. It often strikes me as made up accusations thrown up on a message board in hopes of a fictional narrative sticking.
    Jville
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  • One thing I admire about Bellichick is he plays the game like chess or he doesn't tell you what he's going to do. He makes u guess.

    Pete on the other hand opens his mouth to the media and tells people what he plans to do before the game even started.

    A magician never reveals his secret...Pete's downfall is that he's so open revealing his gameplan, you'll never hear Bill Bellichick do that before the game.


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  • Jville wrote:LOL ................ There was a lot of talk about the Seahawks leaning on a heavy use of the base defense last year ... driven by personnel performances and events.

    Some of the poorly thought out criticism thrown around the forum lacks valid foundation. It often strikes me as made up accusations thrown up on a message board in hopes of a fictional narrative sticking.



    all great but most of us are talking offense. Were hs refuses to chaneg despite the talent saying he should.
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  • dopeboy206 wrote:One thing I admire about Bellichick is he plays the game like chess or he doesn't tell you what he's going to do. He makes u guess.

    Pete on the other hand opens his mouth to the media and tells people what he plans to do before the game even started.

    A magician never reveals his secret...Pete's downfall is that he's so open revealing his gameplan, you'll never hear Bill Bellichick do that before the game.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    PC says, and I am paraphrasing " we are going to line up and do what we do, and out execute the other team." in other words give our selves virtually no margin for error. A lot of our opponents after the games would say for most of the game they knew what was coming. The only time the did not was when Wilson was let "loose", meaning they went with a more unpredictable offense relying on Wilson doing a lot of the playcalling.
    John63
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  • Comparing any coach to the true GOAT is either completely ridiculous, or is a
    mark of just how good said coach really is.

    Why don't we compare Carrol to the other great, salary cap era coaches.

    Sean Payton - offensive genius, paired with one of the top pure quarterbacks of all time, arguably the true GOAT QB.
    Payton is no defensive slouch either, probably due to hiring good defensive assistants. 14 years as head coach, including all of Drew Brees' prime years, resulting in 8 playoff appearances. 1-2 NFCCG record and a 1-0 Super Bowl record

    John Harbaugh - Successful with a variety of changing players and schemes. Primarily has had defensive super stars and his most successful years came without a 1st tier QB. Coaches in the slightly more competitive AFC North. 12 years as head coach resulting in 8 playoff berths, a 1-2 AFCCG record, and a 1-0 Super Bowl record.

    Mike Tomlin - Primary success came from the team that Cowher built, and a early decline Roethlisberger. 13 years as head coach. 8 playoff berths. 2-1 in AFCCG. 1-1 Super Bowl record.

    Andy Reid - another offensive mind. Has had a variety of excellent to HOF caliber QBs. 22 years as head coach. 15 playoff berths. 2-5 NFCCG/AFCCG record. 1-1 Super Bowl Record.

    Bill Parcells - 19 years head coach. Maybe doesn't exactly belong on this list. Never with a true top tier QB IMHO. 10 playoff berths. 3-1 in NFCCG/AFCCG. 2-1 in Super Bowls.

    Pete Carroll - Fielded an all-time great defense, and one of the best all-time QBs. 14 years as head coach. 10 playoff berths. 2-0 in NFCCG, 1-1 in Super Bowls.

    And then there is

    Bill Belichick - All of his success came in the weakest division in the NFL. 25 years head coach. 18 playoff berths. 9-4 in AFCCGs. 6-3 in Super Bowls


    I would say that Carroll is on par with all of the best coaches in the Salary Cap era save the GOAT. One more Super Bowl win puts him firmly in the conversation for an eventual HOF appointment, though not first ballot. But the only absolute, no question about it, first ballot HOFer in the group is Belichick.
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  • John63 wrote:
    Jville wrote:LOL ................ There was a lot of talk about the Seahawks leaning on a heavy use of the base defense last year ... driven by personnel performances and events.

    Some of the poorly thought out criticism thrown around the forum lacks valid foundation. It often strikes me as made up accusations thrown up on a message board in hopes of a fictional narrative sticking.



    all great but most of us are talking offense. Were hs refuses to chaneg despite the talent saying he should.


    LOL ...... The staffs of both Carroll and Belichick adjust to scheme and personnel. It's an attribute they share. :biggthumpup: The selection and addition of DK Metcaft as he settled in certainly changed up the mix of what they did on offense as the season unfolded.
    Jville
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  • John63 wrote:
    dopeboy206 wrote:One thing I admire about Bellichick is he plays the game like chess or he doesn't tell you what he's going to do. He makes u guess.

    Pete on the other hand opens his mouth to the media and tells people what he plans to do before the game even started.

    A magician never reveals his secret...Pete's downfall is that he's so open revealing his gameplan, you'll never hear Bill Bellichick do that before the game.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    PC says, and I am paraphrasing " we are going to line up and do what we do, and out execute the other team." in other words give our selves virtually no margin for error. A lot of our opponents after the games would say for most of the game they knew what was coming. The only time the did not was when Wilson was let "loose", meaning they went with a more unpredictable offense relying on Wilson doing a lot of the playcalling.


    This approach works when your defense is bigger, faster, stronger and plays harder than every other team in the league, or you have a HOF caliber RB and QB that runs a 4.4.

    But we saw last year when we were in base half the time with inferior talent in the defensive side of the ball and a bad O-line that Pete's simple philosophical approach isn't so great.

    Hard to bag on Pete, dude wins, and has won for the better part of 40 years. So to criticize or compare him to the GOAT coach is a ridiculous debate.

    Take it from someone who's been a fan since day one, we will SORELY miss Pete when he's gone.
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  • pittpnthrs wrote:Belichick allows players to play to their strengths. Pete makes players play to his scheme rather than theirs.

    Easy as that.


    Well said and very true.

    Pete is the greatest coach Seattle has ever had but his time here peaked some time ago.

    As for the BB comparison, well, Pete isn't in the same league as Belichick. Very few coaches are. Pete is a very good coach. Belichick is a great coach.

    If Belichick wins a SB w/o Brady, he might very well be Lombardi-esque in the all-time rankings. Some argue he's already there.

    And if Brady somehow pulls off a miracle of miracles and wins a Super Bowl w/o Belichick then he more than cements his ranking as the undisputed all-time best QB ever.

    Between the two I'm pulling for Brady - right behind Russel (who pound-for-pound is currently a better QB than Brady overall at this point in their respective careers) and the crew showing up this season and going all the way.
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  • Jville wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Jville wrote:LOL ................ There was a lot of talk about the Seahawks leaning on a heavy use of the base defense last year ... driven by personnel performances and events.

    Some of the poorly thought out criticism thrown around the forum lacks valid foundation. It often strikes me as made up accusations thrown up on a message board in hopes of a fictional narrative sticking.



    all great but most of us are talking offense. Were hs refuses to chaneg despite the talent saying he should.


    LOL ...... The staffs of both Carroll and Belichick adjust to scheme and personnel. It's an attribute they share. :biggthumpup: The selection and addition of DK Metcaft as he settled in certainly changed up the mix of what they did on offense as the season unfolded.



    ahh yeah in the 4th qtr but for the first qtr as long as it was close no it did not at all.
    John63
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    dopeboy206 wrote:One thing I admire about Bellichick is he plays the game like chess or he doesn't tell you what he's going to do. He makes u guess.

    Pete on the other hand opens his mouth to the media and tells people what he plans to do before the game even started.

    A magician never reveals his secret...Pete's downfall is that he's so open revealing his gameplan, you'll never hear Bill Bellichick do that before the game.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    PC says, and I am paraphrasing " we are going to line up and do what we do, and out execute the other team." in other words give our selves virtually no margin for error. A lot of our opponents after the games would say for most of the game they knew what was coming. The only time the did not was when Wilson was let "loose", meaning they went with a more unpredictable offense relying on Wilson doing a lot of the playcalling.


    This approach works when your defense is bigger, faster, stronger and plays harder than every other team in the league, or you have a HOF caliber RB and QB that runs a 4.4.

    But we saw last year when we were in base half the time with inferior talent in the defensive side of the ball and a bad O-line that Pete's simple philosophical approach isn't so great.

    Hard to bag on Pete, dude wins, and has won for the better part of 40 years. So to criticize or compare him to the GOAT coach is a ridiculous debate.

    Take it from someone who's been a fan since day one, we will SORELY miss Pete when he's gone.


    I criticize him for not adjusting to what he has on offense, for wasting a half of football seeing what the defense is doing. guess what he deserves the criticism. We could have done and been more.
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  • John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    dopeboy206 wrote:One thing I admire about Bellichick is he plays the game like chess or he doesn't tell you what he's going to do. He makes u guess.

    Pete on the other hand opens his mouth to the media and tells people what he plans to do before the game even started.

    A magician never reveals his secret...Pete's downfall is that he's so open revealing his gameplan, you'll never hear Bill Bellichick do that before the game.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    PC says, and I am paraphrasing " we are going to line up and do what we do, and out execute the other team." in other words give our selves virtually no margin for error. A lot of our opponents after the games would say for most of the game they knew what was coming. The only time the did not was when Wilson was let "loose", meaning they went with a more unpredictable offense relying on Wilson doing a lot of the playcalling.


    This approach works when your defense is bigger, faster, stronger and plays harder than every other team in the league, or you have a HOF caliber RB and QB that runs a 4.4.

    But we saw last year when we were in base half the time with inferior talent in the defensive side of the ball and a bad O-line that Pete's simple philosophical approach isn't so great.

    Hard to bag on Pete, dude wins, and has won for the better part of 40 years. So to criticize or compare him to the GOAT coach is a ridiculous debate.

    Take it from someone who's been a fan since day one, we will SORELY miss Pete when he's gone.


    I criticize him for not adjusting to what he has on offense, for wasting a half of football seeing what the defense is doing. guess what he deserves the criticism. We could have done and been more.


    I find it near impossible that you've seriously got nothing good to say about a perennially successful team headed by its perennially successful coach.

    No one is saying Pete is perfect and that everything is done perfectly, but your discourse here is comically skewed towards constant criticism. It's odd.

    I'm sure if you were a Patriots fan, you'd be hollering about them drafting 2 tight ends in the third round and getting whacked around by the Tannehill-led Titans.

    Sorry, but to be credible, you've got to be reasonable - and disregarding this teams outrageously success over the past decade in favor of constant criticism erodes the credibility of comments like these.
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  • Maybe it's time to stop saying "we" John. You have never shown to be anything but a Pete and John basher, and pretty much most things Hawks.
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  • chris98251 wrote:
    xray wrote:Belichick has 8 SB rings . Two with the NY Giants as defensive coordinator ---6 with NE as HC and GM . Carroll helped
    the Hawks to 2 SBs wining 1 . That's probably it for Carroll . IMO


    3 and 1 on paper, 2 for 3 if you take the Refs out of the first one.

    Just helping with the fact checks, we know sometimes they get lost in posts from your side of the street.


    In the spirit of helping with the facts, the original statement was correct. Pete took us to 2 Super Bowls, winning one. The super bowl that you reference with the refs being horrendous (XL) was under Mike Holmgren 5 years before Pete’s arrival.
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  • John63 wrote:
    I criticize him for not adjusting to what he has on offense, for wasting a half of football seeing what the defense is doing. guess what he deserves the criticism. We could have done and been more.


    So you can honestly look at the roster last year and think we could have been more than a 2nd round of the playoffs caliber of team?

    I think you'd be in the vast minority with that opinion, inside or outside the fanbase.

    We had holes and talent deficiencies all over the roster, so I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion if you think we should have been more than what we were. I think if anything we overachieved, mostly because of Russell. Wasn't even close to a NFC Championship or SB roster.
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  • Absolutely, with that roster last year, the fact that they were less than a yard from winning the division is pretty impressive. They were good, not great. Shoot, they were a dropped perfect pass from possibly winning that game in GB and being in the NFC Title game.
    SoulfishHawk
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  • Maelstrom787 wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    PC says, and I am paraphrasing " we are going to line up and do what we do, and out execute the other team." in other words give our selves virtually no margin for error. A lot of our opponents after the games would say for most of the game they knew what was coming. The only time the did not was when Wilson was let "loose", meaning they went with a more unpredictable offense relying on Wilson doing a lot of the playcalling.


    This approach works when your defense is bigger, faster, stronger and plays harder than every other team in the league, or you have a HOF caliber RB and QB that runs a 4.4.

    But we saw last year when we were in base half the time with inferior talent in the defensive side of the ball and a bad O-line that Pete's simple philosophical approach isn't so great.

    Hard to bag on Pete, dude wins, and has won for the better part of 40 years. So to criticize or compare him to the GOAT coach is a ridiculous debate.

    Take it from someone who's been a fan since day one, we will SORELY miss Pete when he's gone.


    I criticize him for not adjusting to what he has on offense, for wasting a half of football seeing what the defense is doing. guess what he deserves the criticism. We could have done and been more.


    I find it near impossible that you've seriously got nothing good to say about a perennially successful team headed by its perennially successful coach.

    No one is saying Pete is perfect and that everything is done perfectly, but your discourse here is comically skewed towards constant criticism. It's odd.

    I'm sure if you were a Patriots fan, you'd be hollering about them drafting 2 tight ends in the third round and getting whacked around by the Tannehill-led Titans.

    Sorry, but to be credible, you've got to be reasonable - and disregarding this teams outrageously success over the past decade in favor of constant criticism erodes the credibility of comments like these.



    well if you read my other posts you would know I do have and have had some good things to say. But all you and others want to do is pretend like I dont. example while I did not like how much we paid I did like getting Adams. I loved drafting DK, loved getting clowney, loved getting Brown. Loved we resigned Wagner. They have done plenty I have liked and I said so, and they have done plenty I did not like and I have said so. As to reasonable I am very reasonable, it just so happens on the 2 biggest issues I have with the team they have failed badly.
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Maybe it's time to stop saying "we" John. You have never shown to be anything but a Pete and John basher, and pretty much most things Hawks.



    well like I said I guess you don't read well, because I have said good stuff as well. As I already posted I said great stuff on DK draft, on lockett., on resigning Wagner, on Clowney to name a few.
    John63
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Absolutely, with that roster last year, the fact that they were less than a yard from winning the division is pretty impressive. They were good, not great. Shoot, they were a dropped perfect pass from possibly winning that game in GB and being in the NFC Title game.



    I actually agree with all that, and they were some minor tweaks on offense from never being reliant on 1 play to win so many games.
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  • bigskydoc wrote:Comparing any coach to the true GOAT is either completely ridiculous, or is a
    mark of just how good said coach really is.

    Why don't we compare Carrol to the other great, salary cap era coaches.

    Sean Payton - offensive genius, paired with one of the top pure quarterbacks of all time, arguably the true GOAT QB.
    Payton is no defensive slouch either, probably due to hiring good defensive assistants. 14 years as head coach, including all of Drew Brees' prime years, resulting in 8 playoff appearances. 1-2 NFCCG record and a 1-0 Super Bowl record

    John Harbaugh - Successful with a variety of changing players and schemes. Primarily has had defensive super stars and his most successful years came without a 1st tier QB. Coaches in the slightly more competitive AFC North. 12 years as head coach resulting in 8 playoff berths, a 1-2 AFCCG record, and a 1-0 Super Bowl record.

    Mike Tomlin - Primary success came from the team that Cowher built, and a early decline Roethlisberger. 13 years as head coach. 8 playoff berths. 2-1 in AFCCG. 1-1 Super Bowl record.

    Andy Reid - another offensive mind. Has had a variety of excellent to HOF caliber QBs. 22 years as head coach. 15 playoff berths. 2-5 NFCCG/AFCCG record. 1-1 Super Bowl Record.

    Bill Parcells - 19 years head coach. Maybe doesn't exactly belong on this list. Never with a true top tier QB IMHO. 10 playoff berths. 3-1 in NFCCG/AFCCG. 2-1 in Super Bowls.

    Pete Carroll - Fielded an all-time great defense, and one of the best all-time QBs. 14 years as head coach. 10 playoff berths. 2-0 in NFCCG, 1-1 in Super Bowls.

    And then there is

    Bill Belichick - All of his success came in the weakest division in the NFL. 25 years head coach. 18 playoff berths. 9-4 in AFCCGs. 6-3 in Super Bowls


    I would say that Carroll is on par with all of the best coaches in the Salary Cap era save the GOAT. One more Super Bowl win puts him firmly in the conversation for an eventual HOF appointment, though not first ballot. But the only absolute, no question about it, first ballot HOFer in the group is Belichick.

    A little nitpick here, Andy Reid has not had a variety of HOF quality QBs. In fact before Mahomes you could argue that his QB's ranged from meh to good. Part of Andy Reid's appeal as a head coach was he seemed to be able to make any QB relatively successful in his system. Reid is a QB guru and it makes sense given that he learned from Mike Holmgren, another guy known for having a magical touch with QBs.

    His main QB's were not all that impressive.

    Donovan McNabb for example was an extremely streaky QB. His accuracy wasn't the best, at times he could dominate but at times he also ran extremely cold. I'm not sure if he would have had a great career without Andy Reid. He was extremely talented as a player but at times he struggled to put it all together.

    Michael Vick was a QB that was coming out of being in prison for what? Two years? At this time he was a bit older and slower. Andy Reid was able to fix his passing and as a result he was able to remake himself as a player, at least for a few years. I'll tell you where Vick was HOF material though, Madden. My god did he dominate there, fond memories.

    Alex Smith is not an HOF caliber QB. Alex Smith has actually turned into a decent QB, but he's not earth shattering as a player. He's is the premier game manager QB, the solid Mr. Reliable. I don't ever think he was a great fit to run Reid's system. Smith is a good cog to have in the wheel but as a main course he can be a bit bland. Smith in my opinion would be best suited for a defensive oriented team that needed a guy to take care of the ball and move to chains on third down. He never was suited to run Reid's high flying offense.

    If anything I think his QB's have held him back over the years. Carroll, Tomlin, Payton, Parcells and Belichick all had pretty stable QB situations. Carroll, Tomlin, Payton and Belichick in particular have consistently fielded elite QBs. Brees, Wilson, Roethlisberger and Brady are much better than anything Reid has ever fielded until Mahomes. That is huge for a guy that relies on offensive prowess to win games. Now, do I think Reid is a great coach? I'm split on this, he's an excellent regular season guy, but his playoff success is pretty dismal. Yes, he has been in two Super Bowls but his playoff win percentage is extremely poor. Though, I'm curious to see what he does now that he actually has a QB that can run his system to its full potential.
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  • You may have missed the to in my excellent to HOF caliber statement.

    Obviously the only HOF* caliber QB he has had is Mahomes. I think he has gotten excellent play out of several QBs in the past.

    *of he stays on his current, apparent career arc

    To my overall point, it's hard to point to a coach who has had more success, over a similar time span, except Belichick .
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