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 Post subject: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:13 am 
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Well according to Dan Pompei they are.

Quote:
What we can be sure of is this is one of the best collections of big, athletic, skilled players in history. The Seahawks are pretty special in that regard. But in order to be remembered by history like the Steel Curtain and the '85 Bears, the Seahawks D will need to be sustainable. Since it's such a young defense, we have no idea if there is even a single Hall of Fame player on the unit. "I'm not ready to put Seattle with that group yet," Dungy said of the Steelers of the mid-'70s. "You have to see it develop over the course of a couple years and see it over a period of time."


http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/68 ... um=twitter










fixed title, I didn't see things right, they are 4th best on this list.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:16 am 
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Actually, he has us 4th best, not 3rd. And that list is for the SB era only.

I could even see someone making a legitimate argument that the 2002 Bucs were ahead of us, but the 2013 Seahawks are a top 5 lock.

EDIT: Also, what I didn't see mentioned in that article is how good the 2012 team was, too. When Dungy talks about doing it over a span of years, the 2012 squad needs to be mentioned in the range of dominance.

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Last edited by volsunghawk on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:16 am 
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The salary cap era is a different animal. Comparing the Steel Curtain and the Bears to the Hawks is patently unfair. The rules on player control and salary are so different.

However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:27 am 
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I love how these guys point out the 85 bears and the 00 Ravens, but then say the Hawks need to do it over the course of several years. We're talking about one season here. Funny how some people are so reluctant to say that something current is among the best ever. 2013 Seahawks are a top 5 best ever, and I think that's pretty fair.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:30 am 
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Best secondary of all time, 4th best defense of all time. 2000 ravens 1976 steelers 1985 bears.
It was however the best defensive Super Bowl performance ever, and no I don't want to hear about the bucs picking off rich Gannon a few times. We were against Peyton manning. That said I have a hard time putting them above those 3


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:31 am 
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He ranks them 4th.

1. '85 Bears
2. '76 Steelers
3. '00 Ravens
4. '13 Seahawks

Regardless, that's good company.

Those other defenses have the benefit of lore on their side. The '13 Hawks could be thought of higher if they repeat as SB champs, or if in 20 years guys like Earl Thomas & Richard Sherman become Hall of Famers.


Last edited by MVP53 on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:33 am 
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With the cap era, there could be so many changes that a team may not be the same as it was a year before. Therefore, having a consistency thru the years may not be a possibility much less a capability. Look at Atlanta and Baltimore. After 2 years ago and 3 years ago, their teams changed drastically. You would almost have to grade each team within its own parameters against other teams within their single year accomplishments. If you are evaluating the method or coaching, then the consistency could be challenged as the best of the best over a period of time.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:35 am 
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Scottemojo wrote:
However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

I put together data (and posted it) comparing the two defenses. I normalized the stats for both the era difference (2000 vs 2013) and the level of competition difference (they faced different levels of competition in their respective years).

From a scoring standpoint, the normalized data supports the premise that the Hawks 2013 defense was better than the 2000 Ravens defense.

Some may argue that stats be damned... "I saw what I saw"... but stats are more reliable than peoples' perceptions, especially from 13 years ago.

Btw, no knock on you, Scotte.

And I did the same analysis on the '85 Bears... and after normalizing the data, they were statistically better than the 2013 Hawks D.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:58 am 
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The only historically great defense to completely dismantle the greatest offense of all time was Seattle.

We're #1

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:02 am 
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I've been following this board since the AFC "Wild Wild West" days. The question has historically been...is this the year we have a top-5 (or top-10) defense? Inevitably, hopes would be crushed pretty regularly to that end. It's amazing that now the question is...where does this defense rank among the top-5 all-time greats?


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:11 am 
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To me it comes down to if you're talking dynasty v.s single year. Single year '13 hawks are up there, surely 3rd or 4th at worst. As a dynasty we just need to prove ourselves one more year and have the #1 defense again.

If we maintain our guys like we should be able to and have the #1 defense again next year I think it's hard to argue we aren't the best all time.
2010 - #25 defense
2011 - #7 defense
2012 - #1 defense
2013 - #1 defense with a tougher schedule and quite improved stat wise.
2014 - ?? at worst we lose Bennett and Clemons but keep the 'boom, should be able to go #1.

Still the improvement is amazing since Jim Mora really. I'm really excited for next year, the only improvement we need to make is run defense, we know ET and Sherman are smart enough to shut down the backfield.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:15 am 
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SacHawk2.0 wrote:
The only historically great defense to completely dismantle the greatest offense of all time was Seattle.

We're #1

REALLY good point. That Giants team the Ravens played was very meh.....Kerry Collins at QB anyone? So was the Pats team the Bears played.....Tony Eason? um, no. On that top 4 list, only the '76 Stealers faced an offense of any caliber (Cowboys with Staubach).

AbsolutNET wrote:
I love how these guys point out the 85 bears and the 00 Ravens, but then say the Hawks need to do it over the course of several years. We're talking about one season here. Funny how some people are so reluctant to say that something current is among the best ever. 2013 Seahawks are a top 5 best ever, and I think that's pretty fair.

REALLY good point too. On that top 4 list, only the 70s Stealers maintained it over a period of years to the point of winning more than one SB.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:22 am 
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Fixed the title, thanks for noticing my error...

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:24 am 
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"The only historically great defense to completely dismantle the greatest offense of all time was Seattle."

Didn't the Bucs team that dismantled the Raiders do that too?

It was my understanding that the Raiders were one of the top offenses at the time?

Of course the #s are a bit tainted in that the Bucs had an intimate level of knowledge of the inner workings and plays of the Raiders, and one of the very important players on the Raiders had a mental breakdown the night/or a few nights before the SB - but wouldn't you have still put the Raiders in the category of a really good offense save for that game?

It would be interesting to see the point differential between historical defenses (normalized against the strength of opponents vs the average strength of opponents to account for defenses that faced an easy or extra difficult schedule) and the point differential against the average team (again normalized against schedule).

We did get a few lucky breaks facing some teams missing or bringing ineffective QBs, but then again teh Seahawks also played some of the tougher teams in the league, beating most soundly. We likely easily fall in the top four or five still considering all those factors.

Obviously this is only for SB teams, since I think a few of the greatest defenses didn't make a SB.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:28 am 
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Didn't get the 2000 Ravens also get to play like four or five backup QBs in the regular season, too?

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:34 am 
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Without looking anything uo deep into stats etc what this defense has done against elite QBs and the high octane offenses they have its unquestioned in my mind they are the best ever.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:36 pm 
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RolandDeschain wrote:
Didn't get the 2000 Ravens also get to play like four or five backup QBs in the regular season, too?


I think so, but I think that's because they knocked out the starting QBs themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:44 pm 
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AbsolutNET wrote:
I love how these guys point out the 85 bears and the 00 Ravens, but then say the Hawks need to do it over the course of several years. We're talking about one season here. Funny how some people are so reluctant to say that something current is among the best ever. 2013 Seahawks are a top 5 best ever, and I think that's pretty fair.


I was thinking the same thing. The Ravens had a pretty good (though not as good) defense for a while but the Bears faded pretty quickly. Even while they were "good" they never again approached the level of dominance they showed in those special seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:08 pm 
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Scottemojo wrote:
The salary cap era is a different animal. Comparing the Steel Curtain and the Bears to the Hawks is patently unfair. The rules on player control and salary are so different..


OR... you just take it into account when you make the comparisons. Nothing wrong with that. Because it cuts both ways. In those eras, the offense didn't have such leeway. Now with the rules and game flow favoring the offense much more, to do what the Seahawks did also garners points.

And so with the salary cap being taken into account, a dynasty may no longer be 10 years, but maybe 3 years. (sadly, but true).

One of those conversations that will always be fun to have because everyone will have different filters and criteria. But at least the Seahawks D accomplished their goal: they will always be in the conversation.

How about that? They didn't just win a Super Bowl, but now they will always be talked about forever because they will always be in the conversation of top defenses.

HOW ABOUT THAT?!

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:32 pm 
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Well, I guess we'll just have to play even better next season, then.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:02 pm 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
RolandDeschain wrote:
Didn't get the 2000 Ravens also get to play like four or five backup QBs in the regular season, too?


I think so, but I think that's because they knocked out the starting QBs themselves.


I think the fact that Kerry Collins and Trent Dilfer were the two starting QBs in the Super Bowl that year tells you everything you need to know about the caliber of offenses in 2000.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:59 pm 
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onanygivensunday wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

I put together data (and posted it) comparing the two defenses. I normalized the stats for both the era difference (2000 vs 2013) and the level of competition difference (they faced different levels of competition in their respective years).

From a scoring standpoint, the normalized data supports the premise that the Hawks 2013 defense was better than the 2000 Ravens defense.

Some may argue that stats be damned... "I saw what I saw"... but stats are more reliable than peoples' perceptions, especially from 13 years ago.

Btw, no knock on you, Scotte.

And I did the same analysis on the '85 Bears... and after normalizing the data, they were statistically better than the 2013 Hawks D.

Hmm, so let me get this straight then, the '85 Bears played against the best Quarterback to EVER play the game at that time in that Super Bowl?
I'm not buying the notion that the Seahawks MUST prove by playing several Years, for a comparison to those others and their SINGLE Super Bowl wins.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:40 pm 
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scutterhawk wrote:
onanygivensunday wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

I put together data (and posted it) comparing the two defenses. I normalized the stats for both the era difference (2000 vs 2013) and the level of competition difference (they faced different levels of competition in their respective years).

From a scoring standpoint, the normalized data supports the premise that the Hawks 2013 defense was better than the 2000 Ravens defense.

Some may argue that stats be damned... "I saw what I saw"... but stats are more reliable than peoples' perceptions, especially from 13 years ago.

Btw, no knock on you, Scotte.

And I did the same analysis on the '85 Bears... and after normalizing the data, they were statistically better than the 2013 Hawks D.

Hmm, so let me get this straight then, the '85 Bears played against the best Quarterback to EVER play the game at that time in that Super Bowl?
I'm not buying the notion that the Seahawks MUST prove by playing several Years, for a comparison to those others and their SINGLE Super Bowl wins.

If you're referring to the analysis that I did, I looked at the whole regular season... not just one game.

The 2013 Seahawks D was statistically better scoring-wise then the 2000 Ravens D.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:50 pm 
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Lots of the teams listed in the article were before my time. I can't comment on the 1976 Steelers or earlier teams, since I wasn't fully cognizant of the NFL at the time. I remember the "Steel Curtain" D of the later years, when they were past their prime, and got shredded by the Cowboys in a Super Bowl. And that same Cowboys team boasted the "Doomsday Defense", which was another unit past its prime, and got shredded even more in return by the Steelers in that same game. Both those Ds were living on reputations of their past glories.

As for defenses that I actually saw, I remember the '85 Bears as being the most overwhelming, the most suffocating, the most intimidating. So putting them at #1 makes sense to me. But one thing about that '85 Bears defense is that in the game they lost, Dan Marino absolutely ripped them to shreds, racking up 38 points on them. That's more points than the 2000 Ravens ever gave up, and more than the 2013 Seahawks ever gave up, even in this high-scoring era. Something the 85 Bears and 2013 Seahawks have in common as that both Ds were #1 in fewest points, fewest yards, and most turnovers. No other D can say that from 1985 to now.

Statistically, the 1986 Bears D was even better than the 1985 one, but seemed less intimidating, maybe because the 46D was no longer new. And by 1987, teams had begun to figure the 46D out. I still smile when thinking back to the Seahawks 1987 game at Chicago. Chicago's defense was still highly regarded, but Seattle picked them apart to a 34-21 win. I remember particularly Dave Kreig faking a pitch right to Warner, which the Bears overpursued, then throwing the ball back to his left to a wide open John L Williams, who went for a 75-yard TD with nobody around him. :D

As for the 2000 Ravens, that was another great D, but they weren't even ranked #1 in overall D that year (the were #1 in least points, but Tennessee was #1 in fewest yards). And they got shredded by Jacksonville for 36 points in a particular game. The 2000 Ravens was a fantastic D, but my recollection is that they got famous in part because their offense was so horrible. The Ravens were won like 5 games in a row with the offense not scoring a TD, or something like that. So that team lived almost entirely on its D, since the O was inept. If the O had been even mediocre, I don't know that the D would've been as revered as it was, even as great as it indeed was.

Those are just some random thoughts I have. Nice to see the 2013 Seahawks in the conversation, and it's really "in the eye of the beholder" as the article says, no right or wrong answers, and it's impossible to make good comparisons between eras anyway.


Last edited by Escamillo on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:57 pm 
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scutterhawk wrote:
onanygivensunday wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

I put together data (and posted it) comparing the two defenses. I normalized the stats for both the era difference (2000 vs 2013) and the level of competition difference (they faced different levels of competition in their respective years).

From a scoring standpoint, the normalized data supports the premise that the Hawks 2013 defense was better than the 2000 Ravens defense.

Some may argue that stats be damned... "I saw what I saw"... but stats are more reliable than peoples' perceptions, especially from 13 years ago.

Btw, no knock on you, Scotte.

And I did the same analysis on the '85 Bears... and after normalizing the data, they were statistically better than the 2013 Hawks D.

Hmm, so let me get this straight then, the '85 Bears played against the best Quarterback to EVER play the game at that time in that Super Bowl?
I'm not buying the notion that the Seahawks MUST prove by playing several Years, for a comparison to those others and their SINGLE Super Bowl wins.


No crap. The 86 Giants were there the very next year so this "do it more than one year" is BS.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:13 pm 
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TwistedHusky wrote:
"The only historically great defense to completely dismantle the greatest offense of all time was Seattle."

Didn't the Bucs team that dismantled the Raiders do that too?

It was my understanding that the Raiders were one of the top offenses at the time?.


The Raiders were the highest scoring team that year; I don't know if they were the highest scoring of all time.

But regardless, I think 43-8 is more impressive than 48-21. :mrgreen:
And, OK, Raiders did get a special teams TD and garbage time points, but ALL of Denver's 8 points against Seattle were garbage time points.
And the media narrative was that since Gruden had been the Raiders coach, his TB team knew all of their plays. :P

One thing TB was more impressive in their SB win than Seattle was in theirs, is that TB has three pick-6's, while Seattle only had one.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:23 pm 
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onanygivensunday wrote:
scutterhawk wrote:
onanygivensunday wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

I put together data (and posted it) comparing the two defenses. I normalized the stats for both the era difference (2000 vs 2013) and the level of competition difference (they faced different levels of competition in their respective years).

From a scoring standpoint, the normalized data supports the premise that the Hawks 2013 defense was better than the 2000 Ravens defense.

Some may argue that stats be damned... "I saw what I saw"... but stats are more reliable than peoples' perceptions, especially from 13 years ago.

Btw, no knock on you, Scotte.

And I did the same analysis on the '85 Bears... and after normalizing the data, they were statistically better than the 2013 Hawks D.

Hmm, so let me get this straight then, the '85 Bears played against the best Quarterback to EVER play the game at that time in that Super Bowl?
I'm not buying the notion that the Seahawks MUST prove by playing several Years, for a comparison to those others and their SINGLE Super Bowl wins.

If you're referring to the analysis that I did, I looked at the whole regular season... not just one game.

The 2013 Seahawks D was statistically better scoring-wise then the 2000 Ravens D.

Football Outsiders would agree with you, as they have the 2013 Seahawks slightly ahead of the 2000 Ravens.

On the flip side, they also have a lot of modern defenses ahead of the 2012 Seahawks, including last year's Bears, the 2008 Steelers and Ravens and the 2002 Bucs.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:11 pm 
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Compiling all the advanced stats(multiple sites) actually has the 2013 Seahawks as the best ever. Factor in what we did against the best offense in regular season history and homerism aside I think this is the best defense of all time.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:13 pm 
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CALIHAWK1 wrote:
scutterhawk wrote:
onanygivensunday wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

I put together data (and posted it) comparing the two defenses. I normalized the stats for both the era difference (2000 vs 2013) and the level of competition difference (they faced different levels of competition in their respective years).

From a scoring standpoint, the normalized data supports the premise that the Hawks 2013 defense was better than the 2000 Ravens defense.

Some may argue that stats be damned... "I saw what I saw"... but stats are more reliable than peoples' perceptions, especially from 13 years ago.

Btw, no knock on you, Scotte.

And I did the same analysis on the '85 Bears... and after normalizing the data, they were statistically better than the 2013 Hawks D.

Hmm, so let me get this straight then, the '85 Bears played against the best Quarterback to EVER play the game at that time in that Super Bowl?
I'm not buying the notion that the Seahawks MUST prove by playing several Years, for a comparison to those others and their SINGLE Super Bowl wins.


No crap. The 86 Giants were there the very next year so this "do it more than one year" is BS.



Article states the 86 Bears were actually better, statistically than the 85 version. They were also pretty good in 84 & 87. Only won one SB, but that doesn't mean their D was a one hit wonder.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:17 pm 
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MVP53 wrote:
CALIHAWK1 wrote:
scutterhawk wrote:
onanygivensunday wrote:
[quote="Scottemojo"]
However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

I put together data (and posted it) comparing the two defenses. I normalized the stats for both the era difference (2000 vs 2013) and the level of competition difference (they faced different levels of competition in their respective years).

From a scoring standpoint, the normalized data supports the premise that the Hawks 2013 defense was better than the 2000 Ravens defense.

Some may argue that stats be damned... "I saw what I saw"... but stats are more reliable than peoples' perceptions, especially from 13 years ago.

Btw, no knock on you, Scotte.

And I did the same analysis on the '85 Bears... and after normalizing the data, they were statistically better than the 2013 Hawks D.

Hmm, so let me get this straight then, the '85 Bears played against the best Quarterback to EVER play the game at that time in that Super Bowl?
I'm not buying the notion that the Seahawks MUST prove by playing several Years, for a comparison to those others and their SINGLE Super Bowl wins.


No crap. The 86 Giants were there the very next year so this "do it more than one year" is BS.



Article states the 86 Bears were actually better, statistically than the 85 version. They were also pretty good in 84 & 87. Only won one SB, but that doesn't mean their D was a one hit wonder.[/quote]

So does our 2012 defense not acount for anything? Its also called the 85 Bears. Not the 80's Bears. So we should actually be refering to the 86 Bears as the best defense of all time?


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:54 am 
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onanygivensunday wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

I put together data (and posted it) comparing the two defenses. I normalized the stats for both the era difference (2000 vs 2013) and the level of competition difference (they faced different levels of competition in their respective years).

From a scoring standpoint, the normalized data supports the premise that the Hawks 2013 defense was better than the 2000 Ravens defense.

Some may argue that stats be damned... "I saw what I saw"... but stats are more reliable than peoples' perceptions, especially from 13 years ago.

Btw, no knock on you, Scotte.

And I did the same analysis on the '85 Bears... and after normalizing the data, they were statistically better than the 2013 Hawks D.


I can see that point of view.
Mine is this: When teams played the Ravens, statistics be damned, the quarterbacks they faces were visibly frightened. In that playoff run, they knocked the QB out of damn near every game.

The big commonality of both teams is pure intimidation. I don't know how to quantify that, just that I thought the Ravens were more intimidating.

Two other defenses that get forgotten in the cap era are the Bucs and the Packers team that won a SB with Reggie White. Both good.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:59 am 
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Not many folks mention how the rules have changed over the years. I think the rule changes AND salary cap play big roles in this. If we are going to apply a year. "85""00" to this. When the "13" Seahawks dismantle the # 1 offense like they did. Our guys are arguably #1.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:18 pm 
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Brian Billick himself, when asked to compare his Ravens 2000 D with Seattle's 2013 D, concedes that his D faced mediocre QBs in the playoffs, while Seattle's faced two HOF QBs, so he gives Seahawks props for that.
He won't say that the Seahawks D is outright better, but he says they're comparable, and openly admits that self-pride makes him reluctant to say any D was outright better than his Ravens D.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Escamillo wrote:
Brian Billick himself, when asked to compare his Ravens 2000 D with Seattle's 2013 D, concedes that his D faced mediocre QBs in the playoffs, while Seattle's faced two HOF QBs, so he gives Seahawks props for that.
He won't say that the Seahawks D is outright better, but he says they're comparable, and openly admits that self-pride makes him reluctant to say any D was outright better than his Ravens D.


He was the HC, but calling it his D is kind of funny. Just sayin.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:40 pm 
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CALIHAWK1 wrote:
Escamillo wrote:
Brian Billick himself, when asked to compare his Ravens 2000 D with Seattle's 2013 D, concedes that his D faced mediocre QBs in the playoffs, while Seattle's faced two HOF QBs, so he gives Seahawks props for that.
He won't say that the Seahawks D is outright better, but he says they're comparable, and openly admits that self-pride makes him reluctant to say any D was outright better than his Ravens D.


He was the HC, but calling it his D is kind of funny. Just sayin.

I agree.

Billick's coaching history before becoming the HC for the Ravens... he was always on the offensive side of the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:37 pm 
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onanygivensunday wrote:
CALIHAWK1 wrote:
Escamillo wrote:
Brian Billick himself, when asked to compare his Ravens 2000 D with Seattle's 2013 D, concedes that his D faced mediocre QBs in the playoffs, while Seattle's faced two HOF QBs, so he gives Seahawks props for that.
He won't say that the Seahawks D is outright better, but he says they're comparable, and openly admits that self-pride makes him reluctant to say any D was outright better than his Ravens D.


He was the HC, but calling it his D is kind of funny. Just sayin.

I agree.

Billick's coaching history before becoming the HC for the Ravens... he was always on the offensive side of the ball.


No. He was an offensive genius. Just ask him.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 3rd Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:54 pm 
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onanygivensunday wrote:
scutterhawk wrote:
onanygivensunday wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
However, I still would call the Ravens D that won a Bowl my number one of the cap era, followed by the '13 Hawks.

I put together data (and posted it) comparing the two defenses. I normalized the stats for both the era difference (2000 vs 2013) and the level of competition difference (they faced different levels of competition in their respective years).

From a scoring standpoint, the normalized data supports the premise that the Hawks 2013 defense was better than the 2000 Ravens defense.

Some may argue that stats be damned... "I saw what I saw"... but stats are more reliable than peoples' perceptions, especially from 13 years ago.

Btw, no knock on you, Scotte.

And I did the same analysis on the '85 Bears... and after normalizing the data, they were statistically better than the 2013 Hawks D.

Hmm, so let me get this straight then, the '85 Bears played against the best Quarterback to EVER play the game at that time in that Super Bowl?
I'm not buying the notion that the Seahawks MUST prove by playing several Years, for a comparison to those others and their SINGLE Super Bowl wins.

If you're referring to the analysis that I did, I looked at the whole regular season... not just one game.

The 2013 Seahawks D was statistically better scoring-wise then the 2000 Ravens D.

All that is well and good, but, and this is an important factor, what were the Bears opponents rankings for both Offenses, and Defenses, strength of Schedule, as all these play into where they were ranked statistically.
Same for the Ravens.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:00 pm 
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pmedic920 wrote:
Not many folks mention how the rules have changed over the years. I think the rule changes AND salary cap play big roles in this. If we are going to apply a year. "85""00" to this. When the "13" Seahawks dismantle the # 1 offense like they did. Our guys are arguably #1.

you'll get no argument from me, as that's exactly where I rank them.
Everyone admits that players are NOW bigger, faster, stronger, and more athletic than ever, and that has to play into the ratings also.


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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Defense, 4th Best All Time?
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:39 pm 
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Throwdown wrote:
Well according to Dan Pompei they are.

Quote:
What we can be sure of is this is one of the best collections of big, athletic, skilled players in history. The Seahawks are pretty special in that regard. But in order to be remembered by history like the Steel Curtain and the '85 Bears, the Seahawks D will need to be sustainable. Since it's such a young defense, we have no idea if there is even a single Hall of Fame player on the unit. "I'm not ready to put Seattle with that group yet," Dungy said of the Steelers of the mid-'70s. "You have to see it develop over the course of a couple years and see it over a period of time."


http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/68 ... um=twitter

Them old school defenses could'nt run the guantlet Seattle just did and come out on top. Seattle plays at a different speed with a very high level of physicality in a NFL with new offense friendly rules. If 13' Seattle Seahawks could play with the old school steel curtain era set of rules I doubt you would see any TD's threw the air and players would be be going to the hospital left and right. Bigger,Stronger,Faster it's just a different level the Seahawks play at.


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