Can the Hawks afford Irvin to be a project?

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  • Jason Pierre Paul only had 4.5 sacks his rookie year, and didn't record a single one until WEEK 8.

    Would you all be satisfied if it took Irvin a year to turn into a player like that? Obviously they're slightly different roles, but both were / are EXTREMELY gifted athletes who were super raw coming out of college. Give the guy some time. I agree it's been frustrating but I'm willing to bank on PC & JS knowing what the hell they are doing (on the defensive side, at least).

    And, not to be a total downer, but as clear as it seemed during the preseason that the Hawks "window" was now open, our play in week 1, and even more importantly the 49ers play tells me that we're not QUITE there yet. That's not to say I don't think we can make the playoffs and maybe make some noise, but I'm not ready to declare full on divisional dominance for the next 5-10 years, like maybe it seemed after the preseason.

    So yes, IMO, the Hawks can afford for Irvin to be a project.
    Last edited by SirTed on Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Excellent points, SirTed....

    The only part I differ with you is that I just don't see us as being playoff worthy this year, based on last week's game etc...Baring some catastrophic injuries, San Fran will likely run away and hide on the rest of the division in 2012...
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  • The only thing is...isn't JPP a few years younger than Bruce? Bruce is old for a rookie. He needs to hit his prime quick to justify the investment in my opinion.
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  • Missing_Clink wrote:The only thing is...isn't JPP a few years younger than Bruce? Bruce is old for a rookie. He needs to hit his prime quick to justify the investment in my opinion.



    1 year older.
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  • Are we kinda used to Pete's projects? Carpenter, Irvin...oh and that third round pick.
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  • SirTed wrote:
    Missing_Clink wrote:The only thing is...isn't JPP a few years younger than Bruce? Bruce is old for a rookie. He needs to hit his prime quick to justify the investment in my opinion.



    1 year older.


    He's 24 only 2 years older than your average rookie assuming your 22 when you end your senior year. It's not like he played 6 years of college ball and has that kind of wear.

    It's not like he's Brandon Weeden. This kind of concern is more reserved for a guy like Brandon Browner.

    Being a situational pass rusher his Jr year, i'd like to think he has less wear on his body than you expect.
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  • I think we can afford him to be a project. It is said many places that you draft for instant production, but if a guy takes a season or two to get it and has a good long carear on your team - thats a good pick too first round or not imo.
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  • The thing that worries me, is that a bit too much of his game is dependant on speed and change of direction, and not on a proven and/or signature move to get inside. At this moment in time, Irvin has not demonstrated a move that is effective at gaining him clean separation, and headed to the quarterback in a straight line, within a high enough percentage of attempts, to indicate a sure-dominance potential.

    Sure, he's showed on a few occasions some success with a move or two that has beaten his man, but just barely, and not decisively. It's just not enough times to indicate to this onlooker that we can be that confident he will definitely get there.

    To be crystal clear here:
    I'm not saying he needs to come out and light up the field in his first outing. Nor am I saying that he can't steadily develop over the course of 6-8 games into a confident groove and make a huge difference toward the end of the season. What I'm saying, is that I would really like to see him have much more success with at least one dominant move to get inside on a high enough percentage of attempts to make me believe it WILL happen.

    But, after all, I am a Seahawks fan, and I have developed more patience than any fan of professional sport can possibly muster. Therefore, I remain cautiously optimistic.
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  • HoustonHawk82 wrote:The thing that worries me, is that a bit too much of his game is dependant on speed and change of direction, and not on a proven and/or signature move to get inside. At this moment in time, Irvin has not demonstrated a move that is effective at gaining him clean separation, and headed to the quarterback in a straight line, within a high enough percentage of attempts, to indicate a sure-dominance potential.

    Sure, he's showed on a few occasions some success with a move or two that has beaten his man, but just barely, and not decisively. It's just not enough times to indicate to this onlooker that we can be that confident he will definitely get there.

    To be crystal clear here:
    I'm not saying he needs to come out and light up the field in his first outing. Nor am I saying that he can't steadily develop over the course of 6-8 games into a confident groove and make a huge difference toward the end of the season. What I'm saying, is that I would really like to see him have much more success with at least one dominant move to get inside on a high enough percentage of attempts to make me believe it WILL happen.

    But, after all, I am a Seahawks fan, and I have developed more patience than any fan of professional sport can possibly muster. Therefore, I remain cautiously optimistic.

    Frankly, I don't see anything crystal clear in that rambling, convoluted, both, either/or mish-mash of a post.
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  • I think Bruce is 2 years older than JPP.

    Anyway...I do not understand why playing DE is apparently so tough to learn. If you are a pure pass rusher, it sounds so ridiculously simple: See QB, tackle QB. I would have thought it would be about the easiest position to learn in the NFL.
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  • Of course we can't afford it, we need pass rush help yesterday. Whether or not he is, thats a different discussion, but letting him take time to learn the pro game is not something this team can afford. We saw that last Sunday.
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  • Missing_Clink wrote:I think Bruce is 2 years older than JPP.

    Anyway...I do not understand why playing DE is apparently so tough to learn. If you are a pure pass rusher, it sounds so ridiculously simple: See QB, tackle QB. I would have thought it would be about the easiest position to learn in the NFL.


    You're right that Bruce is 2 years older than Pierre-Paul.

    However, here's why becoming a good pass-rushing DE is harder to learn than you think. The opposing team almost always puts a guy between the DE and the QB. And that guy is usually pretty motivated to prevent the DE from tackling the QB. If it was as simple as "see QB, tackle QB," then yeah, easiest position to play on the team. The learning process that DEs have to work through is how to address that guy in the middle.
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  • Missing_Clink wrote:I think Bruce is 2 years older than JPP.

    Anyway...I do not understand why playing DE is apparently so tough to learn. If you are a pure pass rusher, it sounds so ridiculously simple: See QB, tackle QB. I would have thought it would be about the easiest position to learn in the NFL.


    NFL positions by simplicity:

    Easy:
    DE (Leo): See QB, tackle QB
    RB: See hole, hit hole.
    WR: See ball, catch ball.
    DB: See ball, stop ball.

    Hard:

    DL: See QB, tackle QB AND See RB, tackle RB
    LB: See QB, tackle QB AND See RB, tackle RB
    QB: See WR, throw to WR AND See RB, hand off to RB

    Hardest

    OL: See DL, stop DL OR See DL, pancake DL OR See LB, stop LB OR see LB, pancake LB
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  • After re-watching this game for the first time on tape, I've learned a few thing.

    Primarily there is no question in my mind that Red is a much better pass rusher at this stage of their career. I think that we would have actually won the game if Red was playing on 3rd downs. He was disruptive and gaining immediate penetration on Massie.

    I'm not saying Irvin cannot be much better than Red as a pass rushing DE in the future, but for right now, he's pretty clear. Can Irvin get better without the 1st team reps and live games? I don't know, I never played DE. However, pass rushing DE seems like one of the easier positions to learn.

    One of the things I've noticed out of Irvin is that I don't feel like he has a high motor- he needs to get more aggressive. He is the most ineffective stunt rusher I've ever seen. He usually gets to the point of contact and just stutters his feet and sits back. After watching effective pass rushers like Matthews run stunts, it's clear he needs to aggressively attack the middle of the pocket.

    One of the reasons Irvin was so effective in College was that he was highly instinctive, raw and just tried to get after the QB with speed/power. I feel like now he is thinking too much. He looks uncomfortable and ineffective.

    He looks like I did when I was first learning to play golf. I thought of a hundred things before I'd take the club back...okay, Grip, posture, take the club back low and slow, left shoulder closed, right elbow in, high finish. Needless to say, it wasn't always a great result.

    I know Irvin is trying to learn different techniques, ect, but if he cannot do even one technique well then we need to put him on the bench until he has developed it. To this point, he gets erased on nearly every play. Massie should have been chewed up and spit out, but instead it was Irvin who was a non-factor for almost the entire game. Disappointed.
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  • lukerguy wrote:
    He looks like I did when I was first learning to play golf. I thought of a hundred things before I'd take the club back...okay, Grip, posture, take the club back low and slow, left shoulder closed, right elbow in, high finish. Needless to say, it wasn't always a great result.

    I know Irvin is trying to learn different techniques, ect, but if he cannot do even one technique well then we need to put him on the bench until he has developed it. To this point, he gets erased on nearly every play. Massie should have been chewed up and spit out, but instead it was Irvin who was a non-factor for almost the entire game. Disappointed.


    Holy crap do I identify with that metaphor. I only started playing golf like 3 years ago (because when you have a baby on the way seems like a perfect time to take up golf :roll: ). All those swing thoughts and keys are important, but they need to be reflexes more than active thoughts. Just let it rip and react, instead of thinking about how to react. It's like muscle memory; a boxer doesn't think about all the many subtle neuances that go into a right cross, they just see the opening and POW. That reflex will come for Irvin, but he needs to build up the muscle memory first.
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  • pehawk wrote:
    KCHawkGirl wrote:@Jkent82, spot on just because you and others think our window is open I don't and I'm confident JS/PC are far nearer my stance than yours.


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  • sutz wrote:
    HoustonHawk82 wrote:The thing that worries me, is that a bit too much of his game is dependant on speed and change of direction, and not on a proven and/or signature move to get inside. At this moment in time, Irvin has not demonstrated a move that is effective at gaining him clean separation, and headed to the quarterback in a straight line, within a high enough percentage of attempts, to indicate a sure-dominance potential.

    Sure, he's showed on a few occasions some success with a move or two that has beaten his man, but just barely, and not decisively. It's just not enough times to indicate to this onlooker that we can be that confident he will definitely get there.

    To be crystal clear here:
    I'm not saying he needs to come out and light up the field in his first outing. Nor am I saying that he can't steadily develop over the course of 6-8 games into a confident groove and make a huge difference toward the end of the season. What I'm saying, is that I would really like to see him have much more success with at least one dominant move to get inside on a high enough percentage of attempts to make me believe it WILL happen.

    But, after all, I am a Seahawks fan, and I have developed more patience than any fan of professional sport can possibly muster. Therefore, I remain cautiously optimistic.

    Frankly, I don't see anything crystal clear in that rambling, convoluted, both, either/or mish-mash of a post.


    Sutz, some day I hope to be as lucid and perfect at saying what I want to, as you.

    I think Bruce needs to be demonstrating a signature move that works to shed a block a high percentage of the time. Even though he won't be successful with it all the time, and part of his job is to keep the QB contained inside, we need him to be effective now at getting to, and sacking the QB. He can add other moves to add to his repertoir later down the road.
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  • It all depends on what the definition of "Project" is. Not many DEs have success right out of college unless they are going to a defense that already has a great pass rush. The Seattle Seahawks do not have that, so Bruce will be at a disadvantage this year. I could use San Francisco's defense and Aldon Smith as a comparison.

    The 49ers already had a great defense when Aldon Smith arrived. Opposing offenses had to worry about Patrick Willis and Justin Smith and most likely focused more on them than on Aldon Smith, who accumulated 14 sacks last year. But those didn't come easily.

    The runner up for Defensive Rookie of the Year only played situational football last year. As much as a talent as Aldon Smith has, he did have 7 games with zero sacks. Except for the Detroit game, his multiple sack games came in blowout wins (48-3 TB, 26-0 Rams, 20-3 Pittsburgh). But in San Francisco's 3 losses, Aldon only had 1 sack.

    My point is, don't expect Bruce to have instant success at this level. There isn't that much difference between Bruce Irvin and Aldon Smith physically (6'3" 250 vs 6'4" 260 ) but Bruce has the edge in combine statistics in the 40 yard dash, 225# reps, broad jump, 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle.

    Irvin has the physical talent, just not the live game experience he needs in order to get the most out of that talent. The Arizona game is not a true testament to Bruce's abilities because there wasn't a great pass rush by the defense. Seattle came away with only 1 sack against the immobile John Skelton.

    Give him a couple of games to see if there is improvement with each week. He has the physical talent and the desire to be great so I don't see any reason why he won't be successful. It's the NFL and phenoms are few and far between after the 10th pick in the NFL draft. I believe that even potentially great players won't succeed if they don't go to the right situation. The ones that do succeed are the ones that persevere and that don't let the frustration of early struggles get to them. I don't see that happening in this situation and the confidence of his team mates in his abilities is where I draw my confidence from.
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  • pehawk wrote: There's GOT TO a way to utilize that, outside of a hand down, dont ya think?


    This has been what I've wanted to see. He may be a project as a classic DE, but in his rookie season to get him going and to make him useful they should be coming up with clever ways to use the guy, because I think he has the talent to be a very successfull NFL defender, just not a classic giant imposing hand down defensive end. Maybe some day he'll be good at that too, but lets get creative here !!
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  • Irvin may end up a good player, but he had lots of makeup issues before being drafted. This info on him from ESPN

    Arrested this past March the weekend after his pro day (March 16) for destruction of property and disorderly conduct after allegedly breaking a sign at a Jimmy John's sandwich shop in Morgantown. Ruled academically ineligible sophomore year of high school. Dropped out of school and struggled with off-the-field issues. Spent two years out of football and briefly spent time in juvenile detention center before earning GED in 2007. Grew up in Georgia in a rough neighborhood. Scouts will need to do some investigating on background. Attempted to walk on at Butler Community College in Kansas but didn't make the team and later enrolled at Mt San Antonio Community College. Played safety for one year them moved to defensive end to take advantage of ability to get to quarterback. De-committed from Tennessee and then Arizona State before settling on West Virginia. Some slight concerns about his ability to interpret and take coaching. Named team's rookie of the year in 2010.
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  • Here's one thing I do know......I'm watching the Patriots for the 2nd week in a row and for the 2nd week in a row Chandler Jones is absolutely tearing it up for N.E. IF Irvin ends up a bust (and I capitalized the word "IF" because I agree with most here that it is WAY too early to say one way or another.....I think we need to see 2 YEARS from the guy first) and Jones continues to be as good as he's shown so far (likely to my eyes) we're all going to be lamenting not taking Jones with the pick. Dude looks like a Pro-Bowl selection to me.
    .
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    .
    Oh, and the AZ defense is REALLY as good as they looked against our team last week. They're shuttingh down NE.
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  • But he could play a position that we werent really looking to draft. He might fit New England to a tee but would struggle in our system. I personally think it's early to start worrying , but feel free.
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  • morgulon1 wrote:But he could play a position that we werent really looking to draft. He might fit New England to a tee but would struggle in our system. I personally think it's early to start worrying , but feel free.

    Definitely a good point. And yeah, I said it was too early to dismiss Irvin, WAY too early.
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  • Bump for comic effect.
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  • Good stuff bmorepunk!
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  • Hopefully Irvin continues to play at this level or better. We've definitely gotten to see at times what they saw they wanted when he was drafted. That ankle sack on Newton from behind was incredible.
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  • Doesn't seem like much of a project to me anymore. He has been great so far for us.
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  • I'd rather have Curry than Bruce, 4.5 sacks for a rookie in 5 games is child's play.
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  • hawksfansinceday1 wrote:Here's one thing I do know......I'm watching the Patriots for the 2nd week in a row and for the 2nd week in a row Chandler Jones is absolutely tearing it up for N.E. IF Irvin ends up a bust (and I capitalized the word "IF" because I agree with most here that it is WAY too early to say one way or another.....I think we need to see 2 YEARS from the guy first) and Jones continues to be as good as he's shown so far (likely to my eyes) we're all going to be lamenting not taking Jones with the pick. Dude looks like a Pro-Bowl selection to me.
    .
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    .
    Oh, and the AZ defense is REALLY as good as they looked against our team last week. They're shuttingh down NE.



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  • No longer a project. He already has more sacks than some of the top DEs in the league. He is the TRUTH. Shut up about him and enjoy.
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  • :sarcasm_on: I'd rather have Curry than Bruce, 4.5 sacks for a rookie in 5 games is child's play. :sarcasm_off:


    Fixed it for ya.
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  • BobcatHawk wrote: :sarcasm_on: I'd rather have Curry than Bruce, 4.5 sacks for a rookie in 5 games is child's play. :sarcasm_off:


    Fixed it for ya.



    Fixed it for ya.

    EDIT: My joke was ruined when BobcatHawk recognized his error. Great.
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  • Carpenter, Unger, and Irvin are all great examples on this team of people giving up too quick on players.

    Glad the coaching staff is more patient than .net
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  • Golden Tate is a project too, who is finally starting to pay some real dividends. Dude is looking like a football player.
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  • jkitsune wrote:Carpenter, Unger, and Irvin are all great examples on this team of people giving up too quick on players.

    Glad the coaching staff is more patient than .net

    Can we throw our rookie starting QB in there as well?
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  • Decent project results... :34853_doh:
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