Take back something I said about Bevell

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Take back something I said about Bevell
Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:34 am
  • I never liked the hire. IMO he benefited from exceptional personnel in Minny and a once in a lifetime year from Farve.

    Well

    Millen pointed out Bevell didn't even call the plays in Minny, it was Childress.

    So, yeah.
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  • It just seems to me we have plays we're good at yet give up on them. I like how the 49ers keep running the trap plays because we couldn't stop it.. We had some nice screen plays to the RBs going in the 1st half. Why give up on them?. make them stop us..

    In the end we'll never know.. If the offense passing game doesnt improve they wil have to do something and that somethng might not be good for Bevel. So hard to tell since we don't know the play calls.. are the other teams scheming us well or is it 100% executions. hard to say.
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  • He's confusing.

    Moore on the sideline route? Set-up a wheel route for Turbin, when Leon's there (not ripping on Turbin, that's a tough catch for inexpeirenced backs). Why Tate on those jump posts every time, why not the best WR on the roster, Rice? Why ditch I formation at the 50?

    When the plays there, it seems the wrong players are getting their numbers called.
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  • Speaking of Tate.. I don't understand how after 3 years he forgets the plays? How many times do we see him run wrong route or look confused of the play? Then the lapse in concentration on the dropped slant. A high school WR can catch that.. crazy.

    I understand Rice probably double covered (best WR) but why is Tate the target on huge 3rd down and short? I don't trust him. He makes big plays but geez.. We really need BIG #2 WR with great hands. Then they can't key on Rice if we have a go too guy on 3rd down.
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  • With ya on that. My guess would be if Tate has another game like that, he won't see the field anymore.

    If Sydney is doubled, scheme differently. A healthy and commited Rice is a rarity you can't waste.
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  • Are you watching this Viking game? I loved that play call for Ponder in the red zone. it was play action but a quick dump off for a TD. I love our play action but it seems the plays take SOOO long to develop. Why not make it easy on the QB?
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  • Well, I can't fault Bevell for the Hawks play-action. The philosiphies are different; Vikes to dink n dunk, Hawks to go up top. And, the Hawks are outstanding in play-action pass protection. Yes, for some reason, the Hawks Oline is tremendous on those plays.

    Nothing matches; WCO coordinater, with University of Wisconsin offensive model, with no WCO routs short.

    The entire things just off.

    Because he's usually wrong, I didn't listen when Absolute said "the Hawks offense can't figure out an identity, but I'd totally bang Bevell". The banging Bevell part is odd, but the rest is true.
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  • pehawk wrote:I never liked the hire. IMO he benefited from exceptional personnel in Minny and a once in a lifetime year from Farve.

    Well

    Millen pointed out Bevell didn't even call the plays in Minny, it was Childress.

    So, yeah.

    That's not completely accurate.... Childress called plays the year that Farve took them deep into the playoffs. Bevell called the others. So, yeah.
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  • There would be no discussion of Bevell if we would just catch the ball. Our best WRs, TEs and RBs are average at best catching the ball and no team can overcome a bad passing game. Wilson did what a QB needed to do to get the ball where it could be caught. Bevell nor Wilson are to blame for Sunday's debacle.
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  • Well, I never liked the hire, period. And, I do aknowledge the drops. But, as I said, maybe those we're the wrong players to utilize?
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  • pehawk wrote:Well, I never liked the hire, period. And, I do aknowledge the drops. But, as I said, maybe those we're the wrong players to utilize?


    The problem with that Pe, is that pretty much every player had a drop.
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  • pehawk wrote:Well, I never liked the hire, period. And, I do aknowledge the drops. But, as I said, maybe those we're the wrong players to utilize?

    Maybe we don't have enough RIGHT players to execute the plays called in Thursdays game, it's like everyone had forgotten the playbook, or the singnals were confusing to the players, dunno.
    More than anything else, it just looked like there were too many timing gafs.
    I just hope they sit these guys down and pick the problems apart and fix them, so's not to make these same damned mistakes for the rest of the Season, at times they looked awful on both sides of the ball in this game, and it wasn't just any one player or Coach at fault.
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  • Beyond the inexperienced QB the Seahawks offense is like a post-menopausal woman.

    No flow.

    It's almost like after every play he throws the playbook in a hopper and whatever one he picks out becomes the next play.

    Then again, I have seasons to the NY Giants and have the priviledge of watching an elite QB in his prime (Wilson is actually better than Eli at the same point in their careers) , with an excellent OC and guys who are familiar with each other and all on the same page. So I admit I'm tainted.
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  • canucklhead wrote:Beyond the inexperienced QB the Seahawks offense is like a post-menopausal woman.

    No flow.

    It's almost like after every play he throws the playbook in a hopper and whatever one he picks out becomes the next play.

    Then again, I have seasons to the NY Giants and have the priviledge of watching an elite QB in his prime (Wilson is actually better than Eli at the same point in their careers) , with an excellent OC and guys who are familiar with each other and all on the same page. So I admit I'm tainted.


    I hear ya. 'Fluid' is the last word that comes to mind when watching this offense. Seems like they either get a dramatic burst or nothing at all. I think getting the timing down on the short-to-intermediate routhes would help a lot, but the OC needs to start running more of those plays, so the guys can actually get in rythum and string a few plays together.
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  • Again i think the Vikings Model of dink in dunk would be good for our young QB. Ponder is also athletic and them move him around the in pocket. Their plays seem to be quick hitters and it gets him in the flow of the game better. Not a lot of WR progressions to go thru (better for a young or rookie QB). Unlike the vikings we would have the extra element of the deep ball off play action every once in a while but it shouldn't be our bread and butter.

    Wilson could be better than Ponder IMO. Wilson's ran that type of offense at NC state..
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  • pehawk wrote:He's confusing.

    Moore on the sideline route? Set-up a wheel route for Turbin, when Leon's there (not ripping on Turbin, that's a tough catch for inexpeirenced backs). Why Tate on those jump posts every time, why not the best WR on the roster, Rice? Why ditch I formation at the 50?

    When the plays there, it seems the wrong players are getting their numbers called.


    DISAGREE... the ball was placed perfectly, easy over the left shoulder catch that landed softly in his hands.. it was too easy of a catch and he was probably thinking TD before he secured it... no excuse that's not a tough catch at all, and that play has got to be made... having said that moving on, i'm sure nobody feels worse than turbin about it..
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  • We had the same situation here with Holmgren and Haskell. The funny thing about that whole issue was that something bad had happened one week and the offense looked crazy good (it was a week where Seneca was starting because Matt was out I believe). Anyway, it was the same personnel as the previous week, but the team looked great. I didn't know what was going on.

    Then later I heard that Holmy had turned over play-calling for the entire week to Gil. Apparently Holmy was dealing with some personal issue or something or the other, and Haskell had put in the whole game plan (not just contributed with a set of plays that Holmy hand picked down to specifics like usual). Gil did the whole scripted scenario for the beginning of the game, and then called the entire game from then on out and the offense looked terrific.

    I remember watching Gil call the offense all by his lonesome in Carolina and ripping the league up. It was sort of like they were running an offense under Steve Bueurlein at QB of all people that was nearly identical to what teams are running now. Steve B. threw for about 4,000 yards and they had lots of receivers and RB's piling up yards. Their defense sucked though, so I believe everybody got canned, and Holmy got the Seattle job, and Gil rejoined him here anyway (He had been with him at GB). He should have been named Carolina's head coach, and at some point he should have been calling plays for the Hawks on a weekly basis.

    Maybe Pete is thinking that Bevell is deserving of a real chance to call the plays, as he's never really 100% gotten the chance, because sometimes those guys do pretty well (Jay Gruden in Cinci is doing pretty well, and for years people said he was an Arena guy only). I don't blame Pete for giving him a chance. Sometimes those guys blow you away. It's better than re-treading another Gregg Knapp I think. There are so many of those guys that just get turn after turn after turn. That was one of the main reasons I was pretty bummed out about Bates getting the axe after only one year. If nothing else, he seemed to have some really good ideas and seemed to have a lot to learn, but if he picked up offense half as well as his dad picked up defense then we were going to have a stellar coordinator. Big Jim was always tweaking things and finding ways to create mismatch hell on opponents, and the rumors were always that his son saw things the same way offensively. I don't know why that whole deal fell apart after one year. Rumor was it was the running game, but that makes no sense. The only thing I can figure is he wanted to keep Hass around. Oh well. Live and learn. Hopefully they bring in some wizard that can get it done, or it is a situation like Haskell's where they just need to figure out the right balance. For all I know Cable is calling 75% of the plays and Bevell is only scripting the first 2 drives. Who knows for sure?
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  • Dinking and dunking also can effectively control the clock. Not a popular approach with wideouts and fantasy football folk, but if done smoothly it can wear a defense down.

    The Niners created some problems with their linebacking core that we were trying to work around. It was obvious to this onlooker that we were doing a lot of the same things the Giants were doing against SF. Trouble with that is we found out the Niners had worked out those chinks in the armor and we didn't make adjustments soon enough. They covered well and they rushed well.

    I saw two halves of football offensively on Thursday. SF was playing a ton of single-safety looks and were covering the middle very effectively in the first half. They came out in the second half with the same thing but disguised the linebackers a bit better so as to force Russ into very few checkdown opportunities. Seemed to me that we weren't reading and calling audibles very much. Gotta hand it to the SF D, they're good.

    In terms of the offense, I can't stop thinking about why we can't approach the run with an effort that just says "yes, we are going to run to the left now, so go ahead and try to stop us". We saw this type of thing in the '05 season quite a bit. We'd line up in that power sweep formation, the defense knew it was coming, and we executed it for positive yards every time. Yes, we had two HOFers on the left side, but they got help from the TE's and WR's a ton to make it all work. Why in the world can't we just decide we want to simply load up the left side, put in our beefiest WR's to help block, and just run the damn ball off tackle. What the hell is up with all the off-guard stuff?

    Look, I may be talking out my ass a bit here, but I believe there is something to lining up in an obvious running formation, and passing from it on occasion when we see what the secondary is doing. If we are a running team, let's give them what they expect. I bring up the Holmy offense only to point out that he'd have success with the screen pass plays by showing run to the strong side, then run a weak-side screen to the fullback. IIRC, we'd take a look at the safeties pre-snap and if they were cheating up we'd run the crossing route off of play action with success as well.

    v1rotv2 makes a great point. It's a lot like how business treats middle-management when the field isn't doing well. The store managers get all the credit when the stores do good, but the area supervisor/regional manager gets yelled at when the stores do bad. Bevell's responsibility is to put-together an offensive attack based on a particular defense. He's going to chart-out plays based on matchups and situations from a known playbook. Aside from trick plays which really can only be successfully done once, every offense in the league all runs basically the same way. Blockers block, QB's throw, and RB's run. It's an exact science and there are very few secrets anymore.

    Even if the OC is a genius that calls all the plays, the HC is still going to walk up and say things like "I think we need to pass here, don't ya think?" Not to mention, Russ is going to have some input during those time-outs as well. I sound like I'm defending him, but Bevell can only draw up what are players are capable of executing. If wideouts can't get separation or can't catch the ball, all the scheming in the world won't help you.
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  • Shark and Houston, THANK YOU. Great stuff - and another example of why I love this place.

    My opinion on why Bates was shown the door is simple; McDaniels was available, they saw him as an upgrade, wanted to keep him from the Rams, but knew McDaniels wouldn't even pick up the phone if the Bates was still employed. They fired Bates, called McDaniels, McDaniels used the Hawks to leverage the Rams for real money and voila - Bevell.
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  • hawker84 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:He's confusing.

    Moore on the sideline route? Set-up a wheel route for Turbin, when Leon's there (not ripping on Turbin, that's a tough catch for inexpeirenced backs). Why Tate on those jump posts every time, why not the best WR on the roster, Rice? Why ditch I formation at the 50?

    When the plays there, it seems the wrong players are getting their numbers called.


    DISAGREE... the ball was placed perfectly, easy over the left shoulder catch that landed softly in his hands.. it was too easy of a catch and he was probably thinking TD before he secured it... no excuse that's not a tough catch at all, and that play has got to be made... having said that moving on, i'm sure nobody feels worse than turbin about it..


    How come Russell gets a get-out-of-jail card for being a rookie, but Turbin does not?

    Although the pass was placed perfectly, it was wobbling, and not that easy to catch. IMHO, you could see it in Turbin's eyes when he reached for the ball. YMMV.
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  • Childress called them and BRENT FAVRE changed them at the line
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  • LymonHawk wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:He's confusing.

    Moore on the sideline route? Set-up a wheel route for Turbin, when Leon's there (not ripping on Turbin, that's a tough catch for inexpeirenced backs). Why Tate on those jump posts every time, why not the best WR on the roster, Rice? Why ditch I formation at the 50?

    When the plays there, it seems the wrong players are getting their numbers called.


    DISAGREE... the ball was placed perfectly, easy over the left shoulder catch that landed softly in his hands.. it was too easy of a catch and he was probably thinking TD before he secured it... no excuse that's not a tough catch at all, and that play has got to be made... having said that moving on, i'm sure nobody feels worse than turbin about it..


    How come Russell gets a get-out-of-jail card for being a rookie, but Turbin does not?

    Although the pass was placed perfectly, it was wobbling, and not that easy to catch. IMHO, you could see it in Turbin's eyes when he reached for the ball. YMMV.


    you're going to compare being a rookie qb to catching a routine pass.... interesting, you're entitled to your opinion...being someone who played the game a bit...it was a routine catch... for a pro, rookie, college, high schooler....and sometimes the wabbly passes are easier to catch the spirals, you can see them better in the air....
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  • Turbin was a fine/great receiver in college. It all depended on the day and what type of defense they were opposing. There's a reason I said he reminded me of a mini John L. Williams around draft time. The guy has very sure hands, and I thought he would be used like we used MoMo and John L. Throw to him out of the backfield on swing passes and screens, but also split him out as a WR and have him run plays exactly like the one we saw him drop on Thursday. It was great to finally see that play. It was disheartening that he dropped it, because in watching Robert for a few years, that is a play he makes 99 out of 100 times. He's not a bobbly-handed receiver. He's very MoMo-eque, and Mo was a guy who ran routes and caught the ball like a receiver many times over his career. But he was a change-up running back. Turbin has the chance to be an every down back and add that dimension of being an extra WR, and he is strong enough and can pick up blocks so that he could be in the backfield with Lynch.

    As the offense grows (and we hope Bevell doesn't give up on things and throw them out) then there is a good chance that we'll see plays with Lynch and Turbin both in at once and Lynch moving to the slot, and then Turbin going in motion and splitting wide. I can see it creating real havoc for defenses who are going to be LBer heavy when seeing those two guys in at once and assuming run all the way and we end up with an empty backfield. We have the players to come up with creative options right now. You don't need the best talent in the world to beat teams. Look at what Boise State has done. Look at what even some NFL teams have done. The Broncos were knocking off teams all year with the world's worst QB, just by creating plays that used his advantages. The Raiders were winning games with Jason Campbell at QB. The Dolphins even went so far as to line Ronnie Brown up at QB extensively a few years ago and won games doing it.

    We've got talent. Let's use it. We've got Edwards, Rice (2 tall WR's), Tate, Baldwin, Obo (3 good possession receivers), Miller, McCoy, Moore (3 BIG TE's), Turbin, Lynch, (2 STRONG RB's that can catch), Robinson (a VERY athletic and smart FB who can also throw the ball), and Leon Washington (A VERY dangerous weapon when given the ball in space, but all they ever use him for now is an occasional handoff like he's the usual running back... how about an end around? How about a bubble screen? How about an option play to Leon? How about splitting him out to WR and have him run that Lockette 'just run past everybody on the field and throw it as far as you can' play?

    Get creative with what you have guys. Our QB is a playmaker. Give him the chance to make plays to the playmakers he is surrounded with.
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  • Great stuff Shark. I've always looked forward to your posts. I live in Utah and am an Aggie (1998), so your knowledge of local sports, especially related to the Hawks, is always informative and interesting to me.

    BTW. Bobby Wagner was at the USU game last Saturday. Awesome to see two Aggies drafted in the same year, never thought I would see that. Turbin effed up, but he is a solid back and is an extremely motivated worker. He'll be just fine.

    I remember being so frustrated with drops in 03 and 04. Once we got that worked out, things got a little a better;) Hopefully the same follows suit with this team.
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  • Oops now that I read my post, I am realizing that I was thinking of Jazz. SHOOT! Jazz is from Utah

    Still love your posts though Shark, especially in this thread.

    Sorry for the massive brain fart.
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  • Umm, no, Shark is our resident Utahite. I've officially coined him our WAC/Mountain West dot.net scout. He's beyond reliable scouting those conferences.
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  • Thanks for setting me straight Pe! I should have trusted my instinct. Maybe the Utah Jazz and JazzHawks threw me off!
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  • Jazzhawks our resident passive-aggressive poster.

    Didn't mean to come off demeaning, rj. Just making sure one of our resident experts gets their due.
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  • LymonHawk wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:He's confusing.

    Moore on the sideline route? Set-up a wheel route for Turbin, when Leon's there (not ripping on Turbin, that's a tough catch for inexpeirenced backs). Why Tate on those jump posts every time, why not the best WR on the roster, Rice? Why ditch I formation at the 50?

    When the plays there, it seems the wrong players are getting their numbers called.


    DISAGREE... the ball was placed perfectly, easy over the left shoulder catch that landed softly in his hands.. it was too easy of a catch and he was probably thinking TD before he secured it... no excuse that's not a tough catch at all, and that play has got to be made... having said that moving on, i'm sure nobody feels worse than turbin about it..


    How come Russell gets a get-out-of-jail card for being a rookie, but Turbin does not?

    Although the pass was placed perfectly, it was wobbling, and not that easy to catch. IMHO, you could see it in Turbin's eyes when he reached for the ball. YMMV.


    After watching the play over again I'd say it's more rookie mistake on Turbo's part. Turbo slowed for a moment after beating his man. That pass was well thrown and easily caught if Turbo had anticipated the pass to come his way while beating his man then quickly running up the sideline. Just a slight hesitation was the difference between a difficult catch and getting it in stride for a potential touchdown. As for the slightly wobbly passes criticism, had it been a perfect spiral it gets there faster and likely makes it even more out of reach.
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  • I was thinking the same thing with the personnel, thinking Washington would've been better in the pass route than Turbin.

    Thing is, SF would've thought the same thing. It's also the reason we ran the ball on 3rd and 4 with Washington. SF doesn't believe we're going to run Washington, and that we will run Turbin. You're using personnel in situations where there isn't a lot of tape of them doing these things. It will take the defense by surprise, as evidenced by Turbin being that open against a good secondary. Turbin, if he does go out in pass routes, is usually out in the flat and is the checkdown.

    Washington rarely runs the ball; he's usually in pass routes.

    We bitch about Bevell's play calling, then we bitch that he puts the "wrong" guys in, when he's trying to catch the defense off balance. We can't have it both ways.
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  • Hawks46 wrote:I was thinking the same thing with the personnel, thinking Washington would've been better in the pass route than Turbin.

    Thing is, SF would've thought the same thing. It's also the reason we ran the ball on 3rd and 4 with Washington. SF doesn't believe we're going to run Washington, and that we will run Turbin. You're using personnel in situations where there isn't a lot of tape of them doing these things. It will take the defense by surprise, as evidenced by Turbin being that open against a good secondary. Turbin, if he does go out in pass routes, is usually out in the flat and is the checkdown.

    Washington rarely runs the ball; he's usually in pass routes.

    We bitch about Bevell's play calling, then we bitch that he puts the "wrong" guys in, when he's trying to catch the defense off balance. We can't have it both ways.


    Then how do bisexuals have it both ways? If anything, my current GF proves it's possible.

    But, yeah, I do kinda agree. Although, SF's 2nd half-adjustments weren't rocket science. It was the right personnel, right play calls, and neither was a mystery to Seattle's defense.

    So, maybe Bevell's outthinking himself with trying to catch defenses offguard based on personnel?
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  • C'mon Pehawk, we all know that's the best kind of both ways. Unless you're bisexual.....cuz bisexual dudes are still gay. But I digress....

    I don't know if he's over thinking it, or if we're just not making necessary adjustments, or if we're just not executing. If Turbin catches that pass, the play call is genius. Personally, I still think it's a damn good call. Turbin wasn't known as a receiver in college, he was more well known for his ypc average and his TD's, but if you actually watched a lot of tape on the guy, he was a good receiver in college. He's also faster than Lynch, meaning he will get better separation from LBers downfield.

    Washington has proven to be a decent runner on 3rd downs, and he's more than capable of getting 4 yards. There was good blocking, but SF's defense is capable of getting him down without a perfect tackle, which is what happened. Turbin could've broken the tackle, but with Turbin in the backfield, SF would've been keying run more.
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