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 Post subject: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Saying it's lack of interior pressure from the DT position.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2012/12/17/37 ... -bills-nfl

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Seattle's biggest need is a pass-rushing interior defensive tackle, plain and simple. Having a good one, will do two things - 1. Disallow opposing QBs to step up in the pocket, making it easier for your speed rushers in Irvin and Clemons, to reach him; 2. Force opposing QBs to have to let go of the ball earlier, thus supporting your press-corners in their abilities to tie up receivers at the line.

If you're a defense that presses the corners, the goal is to disrupt the receiver's timing and delay his ability to get a release. The longer the QB has to sit back and scan the field, the more time the receiver has to break press. Remember, cornerbacks only have 5 yards to press. That's not much.


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Not exactly a revelation - I think we all agree.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:23 pm 
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FlyingGreg wrote:
Not exactly a revelation - I think we all agree.


yeah..... lol.

I haven't been entirely on the bandwagon though, so I guess I definitely am now. Trade up for Star Lotulei anyone?


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:36 am 
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hawksfan515 wrote:
Trade up for Star Lotulei anyone?


No.

I am kinda intrigued by the Randy Starks idea though.

I'm not complaining about our interior pressure. Seattle's DTs now have 9 sacks in 14 games. That's not bad. Compare that to Red Bryant who has 2 sacks in 37 games from a position that usually produces pass rush. I think if you really want to fix the pass rush, you find a Calais Campbell type to play Red Bryant's position. Or you biltz more like a 3-4 team would. That works too.


Last edited by kearly on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:40 am 
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kearly wrote:
hawksfan515 wrote:
Trade up for Star Lotulei anyone?


No.

I am kinda intrigued by the Randy Starks idea though.


Which DT do you like other than Will Sutton?

And on a sidenote, could Jaye Howard be our 3-tech of the future?


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:46 am 
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I like Ziggy Ansah. I don't think either Ansah or Sutton will be the next Geno Atkins, but they'll be good players. I don't like this DT class very much. The first round group is very over-rated, IMO.

I think Jaye Howard is the Craig Terrill of the future. Craig Terrill was horrible against the run, but he could get to the QB. Howard is a much better pass rusher but might be worse against the run than Terrill was. Honestly I am disappointed that Howard hasn't seen reps on 3rd down yet. He must not look as good in practices as he did in the preseason.


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:26 am 
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Size is the prerequisite to Bryant's role. An orthodox 3-4 five technique wouldn't be able to do that job. It's why Alan Branch was going to move over to DE is Red didn't make the Chicago trip. The 4-3 under put the one over the center and tries to force 1v1 match-ups for the three and the LEO. It leaves the five to essentially hold two blockers - maybe three if they keep a tight end blocking. If you run this system without Bryant's size, you're going to get gashed against the run every single time. They're not even trying to make that Bryant position a pass rushing role. They just need him to hold up against the run to try and max out the pressure on the other side. And that's the issue. We're not getting anything like enough penetration from the three.

I like Calais Campbell, but if you take 30-40lbs out of that DE position, this defense will not work. Which is why Red's the highest paid player on the defense right now.


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:49 am 
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So that begs the question why is James Jones having such a bad year? I guess we aren't going to re-sign him?


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:59 am 
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Waterhawk1 wrote:
So that begs the question why is James Jones having such a bad year? I guess we aren't going to re-sign him?

I didn't realize he was.


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:15 am 
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I think our interior pass rush is improved w/ James Jones but there is still room for much more improvement in there.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:19 am 
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I'd like to get a veteran pass rushing DT on the free agency market if one becomes available and then also draft one in the later rounds for growth/depth.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:19 am 
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oregonhawkfan wrote:
I think our interior pass rush is improved w/ James Jones but there is still room for much more improvement in there.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:22 am 
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James Jones already has 12 TD'S for the year though!!!!! Number 2 in the league!


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:43 am 
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Jason Jones is what he meant


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:10 am 
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The question is what pass rusher we can get with the 32nd pick............ :D


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:17 am 
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Waterhawk1 wrote:
So that begs the question why is James Jones having such a bad year? I guess we aren't going to re-sign him?


This has been the main problem with our interior tackle play. Bryant isn't built to play every down, he needs to be spelled........and the combo of Jones and Branch hasn't been very effective.

It doesn't help that Irvin is still a liability on run downs. He can hold his edge, but he rarely sheds blocks and helps the interior lineman make tackles. Eight sacks is great, but only nine tackles is no bueno for a starting DE who needs to help the rest of the line stop the run.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:24 am 
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kearly wrote:
Honestly I am disappointed that Howard hasn't seen reps on 3rd down yet. He must not look as good in practices as he did in the preseason.


Yeah, you know that surprises me too. In my opinion Howard was one of the more intriguing picks we made last year because of what I thought he would bring to the table. Obviously it's still just year 1 for him and there's TONS of time for him, but I loved the thought of having him and Jones as our 3tech rushers. Really thought we would get a lot more push from the middle than we are.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:25 am 
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kearly wrote:
hawksfan515 wrote:
Trade up for Star Lotulei anyone?


No.

I am kinda intrigued by the Randy Starks idea though.

I'm not complaining about our interior pressure. Seattle's DTs now have 9 sacks in 14 games. That's not bad. Compare that to Red Bryant who has 2 sacks in 37 games from a position that usually produces pass rush. I think if you really want to fix the pass rush, you find a Calais Campbell type to play Red Bryant's position. Or you biltz more like a 3-4 team would. That works too.


In this case, sack numbers may not represent the true effectiveness of our ability to collapse the pocket consistently. I think what we are looking for is that dangerous penetrator you have to account for every down. I'm not sure Jones fulfills that need.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:28 am 
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Sgt. Largent wrote:
Waterhawk1 wrote:
So that begs the question why is James Jones having such a bad year? I guess we aren't going to re-sign him?


This has been the main problem with our interior tackle play. Bryant isn't built to play every down, he needs to be spelled........and the combo of Jones and Branch hasn't been very effective.

It doesn't help that Irvin is still a liability on run downs. He can hold his edge, but he rarely sheds blocks and helps the interior lineman make tackles. Eight sacks is great, but only nine tackles is no bueno for a starting DE who needs to help the rest of the line stop the run.


Irvin isn't a "starting DE"...but it is concerning he only has 9 tackles.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Move Sweezy back to DT....I'm kind of serious. Look at his college film, that guy is a beast up the middle.


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:21 pm 
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aawolf wrote:
Move Sweezy back to DT....I'm kind of serious. Look at his college film, that guy is a beast up the middle.


have faith in pete and john, they moved Sweezy to OG cause he is an OG and will boss it up there on his way to a billion pro bowls and the HOF.


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:32 pm 
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theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
Size is the prerequisite to Bryant's role. An orthodox 3-4 five technique wouldn't be able to do that job. It's why Alan Branch was going to move over to DE is Red didn't make the Chicago trip. The 4-3 under put the one over the center and tries to force 1v1 match-ups for the three and the LEO. It leaves the five to essentially hold two blockers - maybe three if they keep a tight end blocking. If you run this system without Bryant's size, you're going to get gashed against the run every single time. They're not even trying to make that Bryant position a pass rushing role. They just need him to hold up against the run to try and max out the pressure on the other side. And that's the issue. We're not getting anything like enough penetration from the three.

I like Calais Campbell, but if you take 30-40lbs out of that DE position, this defense will not work. Which is why Red's the highest paid player on the defense right now.


Great post, but if it's not working, why stick with that philosophy? Actually, it is working, it's just that I think Pete's plan of getting pressure with one pass rusher and a trio of 320 pounders seems pretty delusional to me. You put Geno Atkins in that 3 tech spot then sure, I think it could work. But you'd need an ELITE talent to carry a pass rush with a DT.

Honestly, maybe Seattle should at least dangle some trade scenarios in front of the Bengals this offseason. My offseason plan last year had us swinging a deal for Atkins. It would cost a fortune to deal for him now, maybe more than getting Suh, but I think it could still be worth it.

I'd be interested in a Randy Starks experiment too. He's basically a better version of Alan Branch.

The funny thing is, even with Seattle's massive defensive line, they've never had a truly great run defense through a whole season. I'd much rather see the team revert to a typical 4-3 or even a 3-4 than continue with the current philosophy, which could fly over a cliff in the near future when Clemons finally loses a step.

Also, have we really been using Mebane as a zero technique as your post implies when you say "over the center"? I hadn't noticed that.


Last edited by kearly on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:38 pm 
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I love how earlier in the year everyone wanted to have Jason Jones' children, and now they don't want him back. He's basically been the same exact performer all year. I think the appropriate reaction is somewhere inbetween the extremes. He's a good player, he's just not the answer- but very, very, very few DTs in this league would be that answer.


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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:42 pm 
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kearly wrote:
I love how earlier in the year everyone wanted to have Jason Jones' children, and now they don't want him back. He's basically been the same exact performer all year. I think the appropriate reaction is somewhere inbetween the extremes. He's a good player, he's just not the answer- but very, very, very few DTs in this league would be that answer.


My issue with him is his knee seems to be chronic. Which explains the one year deal.

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 Post subject: Re: THE Derek Stephens agrees with English about Hawks weakness,
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:18 pm 
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hawksfan515 wrote:
aawolf wrote:
Move Sweezy back to DT....I'm kind of serious. Look at his college film, that guy is a beast up the middle.


have faith in pete and john, they moved Sweezy to OG cause he is an OG and will boss it up there on his way to a billion pro bowls and the HOF.

heheh yup yup

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