Irvin to OLBer

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Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:59 am
  • NFL_Football2013 wrote:
    if he could be a better von miller, why not start him out as an LB to begin with?
    and really tony cline......thats the best example we can hope for?


    Look at DeMarcus Ware and his stats out of college. He is a few pound heavier and a bit shorter and slower. In college he played DE/OLB and during the draft he was listed much like Bruce a tweener. Ware is much stronger ( he is a beast) and moved to the DL I see Bruce as a guy who is better suited perhaps at the OLB.

    Last year was not wasted. Learning to play on the line is very valuable and he needed it. Bruce is a guy that plays best in space. I'm jacked about the move even if he is just a part time OLB.
    Bruce is now closer to 257-260 BTW not the 240s in college.
    Last edited by Happypuppy on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:01 am
  • NFL_Football2013 wrote:
    FlyingGreg wrote:I say, "why not"? The signings of Avril and Bennett gives us the flexibility to do some creative things.

    My biggest concern with Irvin at the Sam is teams running the ball right at him.


    ...this
    they ran at him as a DE, if they run at him as an OLB, he wont be able to set the edge and bye bye



    He'd have Red Bryant (most likely) in front of him setting the edge, so I'm not sure it's that big of a deal. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:12 am
  • It will be very interesting to see how he develops as an OLBer. I really hope he exceeds at it as it will allow him to become more versatile thus allowing him to see the field more often.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:17 am
  • jlwaters1 wrote:
    NFL_Football2013 wrote:
    FlyingGreg wrote:I say, "why not"? The signings of Avril and Bennett gives us the flexibility to do some creative things.

    My biggest concern with Irvin at the Sam is teams running the ball right at him.


    ...this
    they ran at him as a DE, if they run at him as an OLB, he wont be able to set the edge and bye bye


    He'd have Red Bryant (most likely) in front of him setting the edge, so I'm not sure it's that big of a deal. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


    The alignment of linebackers depends on the offensive formation - so if the strong side of the offense is away from Big Red, so will be the Sam.

    But I imagine what they envision for Bruce is filling the Sam role in obvious passing downs. It is fun to imagine a pass rush package when we have Clemons, Avril, Bennett (at DT) and Irvin (SAM) on the field at the same time.

    I would expect Malcolm Smith -- who is a more traditional LB -- to see the majority of snaps at Sam as he is better against the run.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:33 am
  • DavidSeven wrote:I don't think the move has as much to do with Bruce's strengths and weaknesses as it does our increased depth on defense. Last year, we were thin at DE. This year, we've loaded up with the additions of Avril and Bennett. Bruce has too much unique talent to keep him off the field, so Pete's going to find a way to get these guys looks. Theoretically, with Bruce at OLB, we could have a package that features Clemons, Avril, Bennett and Bruce on the field at the same time. Can you imagine being an opposing QB or O-lineman in that situation? Also, OP's quote points out that he'll still get looks at the DE position in obvious passing situations, so he still retains his role from his rookie season. Looks like we're training him to be an even more versatile weapon on D.



    This was my thought on this as well. With Clemons out and Irvin facing suspension, we'll still be looking pretty good for pass rush. When Clemons comes back and Irvin is off of suspension, it would be a struggle to get all of these guys on the DLine at the same time. I don't see Irvin getting much needed experience competing with Avril and Bennett, who are not only more refined pass rushers and run stoppers, but they have more experience.

    As for the size thing, I don't buy it. Irvin wasn't that much smaller than Clemons, and he actually has a larger frame. Look at the pictures from the OTA's; Irvin looks about 25-30% bigger than Clem when both are standing together, so he's gained significant weight this offseason.

    As for coverage, the word was that Irvin played Safety in High school. If he was half way decent, that should give him the coverage skills he needs to survive at LB.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:06 am
  • dontbelikethat wrote:My main concern are his coverage skills.


    Didn't Irvin play Saftey while he was at Junior College?

    I love this move personally.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:29 am
  • Is he going to have like an Aldon Smith rookie year type of role? non starter but situational pass rusher
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:34 am
  • Anyone suggesting this move has nothing to do with Irvin's abilities is kidding themselves. There's a reason we went out and signed several $$ DEs. We're putting him in a position to succeed with his speed. I doubt he'll be starting during TC, Carroll understands he's out for the first 4 games anyways and he has yet to prove anything at OLB.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:36 am
  • Makes sense because we used Clay Matthews and Brian Cushing--both linebackers--in the Leo role at USC. It's basically a hybrid role anyway.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:04 pm
  • Where did the quote come from in the original post? Did Pete ever come out and say Irvin will compete for the starting job at LB? As others have said, the comment about him not being big enough is strange and not something I can imagine Pete saying.

    I don't think we will know exactly what's going on with the Irvin/LB thing until training camp and more likely until the season starts and Irvin returns in game 5.

    I have a hard time believing that Irvin is going to become a starting outside LB. Obvious passing downs? No doubt that we will see Irvin at LB occasionally. Every other snap of the game? I doubt he is a better LB than Smith and Wright.

    I understand that if Irvin plays Sam he will always have Red in front of him (the Leo end plays weak side), so that will help with run defense. I also see the advantage of having pass rush come from the other side in our base defense (base defense all the pressure has been coming from the weak side).

    It'll be interesting to see how this plays out and what exactly Pete has planned.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:26 pm
  • The part that caught my attention was the bit about Irvin competing with Smith, not Avril. Smith is a pure WILL LB. If Irvin wins that competition, that means we might see Avril and Irvin on the field as LBs at the same time at some point this season. That would be interesting.

    I wonder how well he can cover. He did play safety in high school and briefly at the collegiate level, and he's got the speed (4.50).

    Props to Hawkblogger for calling an outright move to LB for Irvin way, way back (I think in January). He sounded sourced at the time, and given his connections to the team and coaches I thought there was a pretty good chance he wasn't full of crap. Turns out he was on the money.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:28 pm
  • What's the percentage that you guys run a 'base personal'?

    The Niners technically run a 3-4 but we run a 2-4-5 the most (in terms of percent of plays).

    I think this whole story is semantics... They'll use Irvin as a rush linebacker, whether there's a 3 or 4 man front. He does have the speed to play in coverage, but it remains to be seen if he has the mental fortitude to diagnose and be an effective OLB in a 4-3.

    Like several posters have said, I bet he's a 'pass rush specialist' a la Aldon Smith in his rookie year.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:29 pm
  • kearly wrote:The part that caught my attention was the bit about Irvin competing with Smith, not Avril. Smith is a pure WILL LB. If Irvin wins that competition, that means we might see Avril and Irvin on the field as LBs at the same time at some point this season. That would be interesting.

    I wonder how well he can cover. He did play safety in high school and briefly at the collegiate level, and he's got the speed (4.50).


    And it's interesting that they moved KJ Wright to Will and Malcom Smith to Sam.

    The possibilities and flexibility with this defense (once all hands are on deck) is amazing.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:38 pm
  • SNDavidson wrote:A means of having almost all of our pass rushers on the field at the same time.


    Clemons and Avril on the edges, Bennett and Hill in the m7ddle, Irvin at OLB, winne on the ege . ? ?
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:43 pm
  • T-Sizzle wrote:
    DavidSeven wrote:I don't think the move has as much to do with Bruce's strengths and weaknesses as it does our increased depth on defense. Last year, we were thin at DE. This year, we've loaded up with the additions of Avril and Bennett. Bruce has too much unique talent to keep him off the field, so Pete's going to find a way to get these guys looks. Theoretically, with Bruce at OLB, we could have a package that features Clemons, Avril, Bennett and Bruce on the field at the same time. Can you imagine being an opposing QB or O-lineman in that situation? Also, OP's quote points out that he'll still get looks at the DE position in obvious passing situations, so he still retains his role from his rookie season. Looks like we're training him to be an even more versatile weapon on D.

    :13:


    I think it's pretty clear that Irvin is being moved because of his strengths and weaknesses.

    First, you don't move a 1st round pick to a new position in year two to help fill out the depth chart a little better. If Seattle needed LB help, they had the entire offseason to work that out. It's worth noting too that Seattle did not sign a single LB in free agency, not even for the minimum, and they did not spend a single draft pick on a LB in the draft either, instead opting to wait for UDFA. During the combine, Pete Carroll spoke openly about his comfort and satisfaction with the Seahawks depth chart at LB. Clearly, Pete Carroll feels pretty comfortable about his LB situation.

    Second, we are much thinner at DE than we are at LB.

    Our LB corps is actually pretty loaded top to bottom, and there will be some starter caliber LBs who won't make the cut for us already. Smith is starter caliber and is stuck on the bench. Bradford showed some really good things in his preseason debut last year (and Pete Carroll noticed it). Morgan is a good linebacker that can play all 3 spots. John Lotulelei was one of the most athletic LBs in the 2013 draft, and I'm very high on fellow UDFA Craig Wilkins, who runs in the 4.50s but is a pain to block. There's also Korey Toomer, who has top shelf physical talent and is a decent bet to make the team during Irvin's suspension as he has good pass rush ability.

    At DE, Avril is not really a complete LEO, he's more like Irvin than Clemons- he's a pure edge rusher. He's also got a foot problem. Though Bennett would make an awesome 5-tech, it sounds like he'll see most of his reps inside at 3-tech, similar to Jason Jones. He also has a lingering shoulder problem. Clemons is 32 years old, weighs 265 pounds (listed as less online, but during broadcasts last season he was listed in the 260s), and just tore his ACL in January. That's not a recipe for a quick recovery, most likely. You look at this roster, and they'd be crazy to move Irvin away from DE if he had the same LEO capability as Chris Clemons.

    Third, LB really does suit a player like Irvin much better. When given open space, he's a deadly pass rusher, but it's "game over" when a tackle wins the initial arm battle at the line. In college, Irvin compensated for that weakness with a surprisingly strong bull rush, but as is typically the case, his bull rush didn't translate to the NFL. It typically doesn't translate even for most 300 pound DTs, so I'm not surprised it didn't translate for a 245 pound featherweight DE. Getting Irvin in more open space situations where he can exploit speed is exactly the right way to handle him, IMO.
    Last edited by kearly on Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:49 pm
  • kearly wrote:Our LB corps is actually pretty loaded top to bottom, and there will be some starter caliber LBs who won't make the cut for us already. Smith is starter caliber and is stuck on the bench. Bradford showed some really good things in his preseason debut last year (and Pete Carroll noticed it). Morgan is a good linebacker that can play all 3 spots. John Lotulelei was one of the most athletic LBs in the 2013 draft, and I'm very high on fellow UDFA Craig Wilkins, who runs in the 4.50s but is a pain to block. There's also Korey Toomer, who has top shelf physical talent and is a decent bet to make the team during Irvin's suspension as he has good pass rush ability


    Kip, don't you see Smith as the most likely starter at Sam?
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:59 pm
  • FlyingGreg wrote:Kip, don't you see Smith as the most likely starter at Sam?


    SAM is more of a run stopping position and it typically plays very close to the strong side of the line, so it's almost like a hybrid DE/LB position. For a SAM LBer, it's really important to take blocks well because you have little protection and are asked to take on a lot in the running game.

    It's not that I think Smith "can't" play the position, but at 228 pounds with his injury history I think it would be reckless. And also a waste of his talent, as his coverage and blitzing ability fits the WILL spot very well. Mike Morgan is also sub-230, but he'd actually make a pretty good SAM because he plays much bigger than his weight and he stays healthy. Then you have KJ Wright of course, who is an elite run stopper and is as almost as tough to move as a 5-tech. Bradford would be a killer SAM as well. Toomer could play there. Wilkins could too, if they wanted. Of all the LBs I think of as likely to make the team, Smith seems like the very last player I'd peg for the SAM spot.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:17 pm
  • ^So if KJ moved to Will and Irvin is at Sam why is he competing with Malcolm Smith for thst spot instead of Toomer, Morgan or one of the other bigger LBs?

    My opinion is we are going to see a bunch of new and different stuff. I also think we will see more 3-4 looks.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:30 pm
  • PC and his coaching staff know 50X more than any of us about football. They clearly know what they are doing. If they think it's a good idea, I don't doubt it at all. If it doesn't work out, they'll move him back.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:44 pm

Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:15 pm
  • This is all over the video media today thanks to a blurb in the News Tribune. It's news to everyone but Seahawk fans who have heard about it for months. It must be July. You can only say so much about Aaron Hernandez which will finally disappear from the TV when TCs open around the NFL in a couple weeks.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:28 pm
  • The Seahawks aren't exactly inventing the wheel with this move either. The Giants did it with Mathias Kiwanuka, as just one example. Moving a DE to LB is all about scheme fit and getting your best players on the field. My opinion part of this is that I'd definitely rather maximize Irvin's reps than Malcom Smith's, who's been very good in the fill-in role. There is nothing wrong having that DD Lewis, sometimes starter on your team.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:59 pm
  • hawker84 wrote:I love it, i don't see him as a legit DE, too small... in order to succeed there, he'd really need to develope solid moves other than the bull and speed rush.. I love the move... How is his coverage skills though?


    why is everyone saying he's to small? Him and Chris Clemons are the same height and Clemons weighs 7 lbs more than Irvin.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:55 pm
  • I've been trying all day to visualize and come to terms with this and make sense of it. Just doesn't pass the smell test to me. If you think he is progressing at all at DE, I can't see why you would consider making this move. I'm thinking Quinn doesn't believe in him at DE. He was already a project, now he's even more of one, and at a position he has never played before. I know I'm usually not the most optimistic fella around here, but even if I try to wear that hat I can't see him playing much and being productive. Even if you put him in on passing downs, the opposing team knows he is coming. I have all the trust in the world in our staff, but I don't see how you could spin this as anything other than the staff didn't believe he could be a productive DE and though it was time to try something else.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:32 pm
  • CALIHAWK1 wrote:I don't buy the part about him not being big enough to play line full time. I think that was obviouly opinion but mixed in so it may be construed as something Carroll may have hinted at.

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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:36 pm
  • I like the idea of having Irvin learn some OLB duties and eventually he can possibly become a 3 down player. However, I don't think Smith will actually be anywhere near a starter on the strong side and Toomer makes his elite athleticism a good part of the mixture and earns a starting role at least for the 1st 4 games, in which case, Irvin will likely have spot duty on 1st and 2nd down initially so Toomer probably starts a lot.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:52 pm
  • Something I think we need to keep an eye on is Wright just as good a WILL as he is a SAM?

    Like Kearly mentioned, Wright is pretty damn good at what he does. I don't see the advantage of taking Wright out of a position he excels at, put him in another that he may not be as good at and than replacing Wright at his original position with a question mark project.

    Irvin has some pretty big holes as a player. He has some raw talent but at LB, he would need to vastly improve on his fundamentals of the game. And for those saying it's no big deal, he will just rush the passer, while we use 3-4 looks, we are still a 4-3. Which means if Irvin is rushing from the LB spot, we are essentially sending 5 guys and you can only do that so often.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:05 am
  • amill87 wrote:Something I think we need to keep an eye on is Wright just as good a WILL as he is a SAM?

    Like Kearly mentioned, Wright is pretty damn good at what he does. I don't see the advantage of taking Wright out of a position he excels at, put him in another that he may not be as good at and than replacing Wright at his original position with a question mark project.

    Irvin has some pretty big holes as a player. He has some raw talent but at LB, he would need to vastly improve on his fundamentals of the game. And for those saying it's no big deal, he will just rush the passer, while we use 3-4 looks, we are still a 4-3. Which means if Irvin is rushing from the LB spot, we are essentially sending 5 guys and you can only do that so often.


    I do agree about sending 5 too often. Wright is just a LB through and through. Stepped in at MLB in 2011 and no one saw him make a single bad play. Don't worry about Wright. Besides, having him next to his buddy Wagner, whom he communicates with very well in game, is only good for continuity from left to right.

    Again though, I'd like to send 5 a little bit more than Gus did, but sending 5 too often puts your coverages at a disadvantage. A good DC has to know when he's facing a smart, vet QB. One of those will just figure out where the blitz is coming from and throw over top to the vacated area and kill that. It has to be done right. Certainly not too much.

    One of the reasons I really like the prospect of Toomer being an actual SLB more in the mold of a Wright type, but much, much, much better athlete. 1st and 2nd down would be less of a concern and Toomer has put his hand on the ground quite a bit too with all of the other positions he chipped in at.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:34 am
  • The thing about sending "5 guys too often" though is that the teams that usually do so are the ones that have little to no secondary quality, so you do it too much and eventually you'll be picked apart.
    When you have 5 pro-bowl DBs though, you can afford to pressure more, your matchup still gives 6 on 3/4/5 receivers, which is a numerical advantage - and in fact by consistently sending 5, your OC is forced to start holding back a TE/FB/RB to block more often, so you can focus on defending against 1 less player.

    Because we very rarely need to double team any WRs we can afford that extra rusher.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:29 am
  • We heard all this a while back, but this was confirmation from Pete, so it is news.

    I think this is a look we would only see a handful of times per game. Except in those games where an exceptional athlete is behind center, which unfortunately for the suspended Irvin is the first two weeks. Irvin parked at WILL could be a good deterrent for Kaepernick and Newton taking off around the weak side.

    I have been concerned about the WILL spot for a while, I don't see Malcom as fitting the model. Irvin fits the model, but is completely unproven at the spot.

    For those comparing Clemons and Irvin physically, I can't say how big Irvin is post "adderall", but last year he was way smaller than Clemons, I don't care what the official program says. And he plays way smaller. Clemons bullrushes from time to time, Irvin looks like a child when he tries that.

    The good news from yesterday? Clemons thinks he will be good to go for day one.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:45 am
  • T-Sizzle wrote:
    Coach Pete Carroll says he plans to move defensive end Bruce Irvin to outside linebacker, where he'll compete with Malcolm Smith for the starting job.
    Irvin will still see looks as a defensive end in nickel pass-rushing situations, but isn't big enough to ever earn a full time role on the defensive line. Carroll brought up Irvin's versatility as being extremely valuable to the team, and added "We're a 4-3 personnel system that plays 3-4 looks," indicating Irvin will get plenty of pass rush opportunities at outside linebacker. Expect Irvin to win the job from Smith after serving his four-game suspension for PEDs.


    Smart move by Carroll. Im sure they will use him a lot like Von Miller, move him around and he will primarily rush. I like it.

    My thought exactly. Good move.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:52 am
  • I can see him over pursuing
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:37 am
  • As Pat Kirwin of CBSSports.com divulged today, one such scheme involves the use of a 'spinner'. Kirwin explains:

    "When the Seahawks have all four pass rushers (Chris Clemons, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett & Bruce Irvin) healthy enough to play together it could be a big problem for the opposition. Eventually Chris Clemons will get back on the field and Seattle will not have to blitz to get to quarterbacks. How will they get the four best rushers on the field considering only one (Michael Bennett) is really suited for the inside over a guard? Look for Cliff Avril at left end, Bennett inside over the center or a guard, Clemons at the right end and Bruce Irvin playing the "spinner" role. The "spinner" stands up and moves during the snap count, meaning he could rush from anywhere.

    "Most NFL teams know Pete Carroll has run this scheme before, one head coach is taking special notice: "That Seattle spinner package will be a major problem for teams visiting Seattle," the coach said. "The O-line has to constantly communicate about where the spinner is and where he might cross the line of scrimmage. It won't be easy up in that stadium and it's going to put a lot of stress on the offensive line."

    http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/3/22/4136666/bruce-irvin-the-spinner-role-in-the-seahawks-defense
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:06 pm
  • I said on draft day he will have to play LB some because he's not an everydown DE. That doesn't mean he'll be the next LT but he has the speed so there's a descent chance he could do well there . I do think that for as high a pick as he was they have to find ways to keep him on the field LB makes sense from that stand point.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:08 pm
  • CALIHAWK1 wrote:^So if KJ moved to Will and Irvin is at Sam why is he competing with Malcolm Smith for thst spot instead of Toomer, Morgan or one of the other bigger LBs?

    My opinion is we are going to see a bunch of new and different stuff. I also think we will see more 3-4 looks.


    Avril is going to SAM and he wasn't mentioned as being in competition with Irvin, so that logic cuts both ways. We're going to see a gazillion combinations out there in August, but if for arguments sake Smith ended up at SAM with Wright at WILL, that would completely mystify me. Though I guess it wouldn't be the first time Pete did something counter to convention on defense, I suppose.

    As far as the 5 man rushes, I think that's a good thing. It was either FO or Advanced NFL stats that proved how defenses are at their best when they rush 5, with a 4 man rush being a close second.

    As has been said though, I think a lot of Irvin's LB play time could just be in a spinner role on 3rd downs, and in those cases he'll be our 4th rusher, even as a blitzing LB.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:36 pm
  • hawker84 wrote:I love it, i don't see him as a legit DE, too small... in order to succeed there, he'd really need to develope solid moves other than the bull and speed rush.. I love the move... How is his coverage skills though?



    It was his rookie season and Irvin was undersized, he will need a little time to develop the strength and get more experience in the NFL but he can play DE just needs time. I think his move to SLB is to get more pass rush out of the 4-3 under formation w/Irvin lined up outside Red on the line of scrimage i doubt they will have him dropping back much its probably play the run on the way to the QB.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:53 pm
  • Bill Assumpcao wrote:As Pat Kirwin of CBSSports.com divulged today, one such scheme involves the use of a 'spinner'. Kirwin explains:

    "When the Seahawks have all four pass rushers (Chris Clemons, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett & Bruce Irvin) healthy enough to play together it could be a big problem for the opposition. Eventually Chris Clemons will get back on the field and Seattle will not have to blitz to get to quarterbacks. How will they get the four best rushers on the field considering only one (Michael Bennett) is really suited for the inside over a guard? Look for Cliff Avril at left end, Bennett inside over the center or a guard, Clemons at the right end and Bruce Irvin playing the "spinner" role. The "spinner" stands up and moves during the snap count, meaning he could rush from anywhere.

    "Most NFL teams know Pete Carroll has run this scheme before, one head coach is taking special notice: "That Seattle spinner package will be a major problem for teams visiting Seattle," the coach said. "The O-line has to constantly communicate about where the spinner is and where he might cross the line of scrimmage. It won't be easy up in that stadium and it's going to put a lot of stress on the offensive line."

    http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/3/22/4136666/bruce-irvin-the-spinner-role-in-the-seahawks-defense
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:03 pm
  • NFL_Football2013 wrote:
    FlyingGreg wrote:I say, "why not"? The signings of Avril and Bennett gives us the flexibility to do some creative things.

    My biggest concern with Irvin at the Sam is teams running the ball right at him.


    ...this
    they ran at him as a DE, if they run at him as an OLB, he wont be able to set the edge and bye bye

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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:16 pm
  • scutterhawk wrote:
    NFL_Football2013 wrote:
    FlyingGreg wrote:I say, "why not"? The signings of Avril and Bennett gives us the flexibility to do some creative things.

    My biggest concern with Irvin at the Sam is teams running the ball right at him.


    ...this
    they ran at him as a DE, if they run at him as an OLB, he wont be able to set the edge and bye bye



    You know I would actually wait until the new look Bruce Irvin takes the field in 2013 before making any assumptions on his play last year where he wasn’t really asked to be a bonafide run-defender until that last game vs the Falcons.

    1. Irvin put on about 7-12 pounds on his playing weight from 2012. Irvin looked undersized and lean coming in, now, he looks much stouter. At SAM, he is our biggest LBer by at least 9-14 pounds (K.J. Wright, 246. Bobby Wagner , 241. Craig Wilkins, 238. Every other LBer is "listed" under 235 pounds)

    2. Irvin is pretty strong, even though his bench press isn't really a necessary lift, its a comparable one. Irvin had 23 reps, to put that in perspective, recently drafted LBers: Toomer had 20, Wagner had 24, and Wright had 20. Clemons had 18, 9 years ago.

    The thing though is coming in last year Irvin didn't look strong, his arms were muscular but thin, heading into this season they look like they doubled in size.

    What bothers me mostly is Irvin's seeming lack of lower body strength compared to some of our other players, hopefully, he didn't just invest his off-season time developing just his upper body. To hold up the point attack I would say lower body strength is more necessary than upper body. But his lower body strength is about on par with Wright and entry level Hill, and Clemons. Wagner is elite in this aspect scoring a 11 foot Broad Jump and a 39.5 Vert. A big reason why Wags was one of the best vs the run last season.
    But to end my point, Bruce Irvin has undergone sort of a big transformation compared to where he was and what he looked like from last season. In 2013, he looks to be a much stronger, much stouter, and a much more capable defender from a physical aspect. And he has 2 more months to get even bigger, stronger, or just adapt to his new playing size . True, he has a lot to learn about instincts and coverage responsibility but I don’t think we can sit here and say he’ll underperform from a physical standpoint until we see him actually play SAM and see how well he does.

    To go away a little from the quoted point:

    3. I don't really read much into this move. We knew it was happening months ago. In order for Irvin to become a complete LEO, he needs to play with a LBer's mentality. I also believed this plan for development for Irvin was decided since he was drafted or even perhaps before he was drafted. It correlates well with the deals they gave Clemons, and the deal they gave Avril. Both contracts end after Irvin’s 3rd Season, which in my projection of Irvin’s development is about the time I expect him to become a more complete LEO.

    Year 1, learn to be a pass-rusher at the NFL level, work on pass-rush repertoire.

    Year 2, learn LBer skills + instincts: defend the point of attack, tackling, coverage responsibilities while continuing to develop his pass-rush abilities.

    Year 3, put the knowledge of year 1 and year 2 together, and learn to become a viable defender at the LEO position.

    Year 4, take over the LEO position long-term with 3 ½ years of training, coaching, and experience under his belt trending him towards being a more complete player.

    But really everything I said really is just speculation on my part. Hopefully, not too many people will strongly disagree like they have when I take a stance especially on this particular player. I just really have high hopes for Irvin, and feel if he can put in the hard work on the field, off the field, and in the classroom he can develop one day into truly elite player for the Seahawks as a LEO prospect and if not, he’ll at least be a terrorizing pass-rusher.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:41 pm
  • And with that I'll call it a night.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:30 am
  • Irvin had 8 sacks as a rookie, obviously productive so it is not like he is being moved for under performing. It is pretty realistic to think if they played him in the same role as last year he would be at least as good and likely a little better but with the addition of Avril, development of others, scheme changes and Clemons being ahead of schedule we end up with to many players in the same position and that would serve to get Irvin less playing time.

    Before you make to harsh a judgement on whether he will be able succeed at LB with his lack of experience, how did you think Red Bryant would do at DE? Quinn was given credit for that move and it took a player who was under achieving on the inside and made him very productive on the outside. I won't judge the move until I see how it plays out but I think it is safe to say they want him on the field more than they would have been able to with all the competition so this move to me doesn't look like a negative, it looks like trying the best possible combinations to get the best players on the field.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:31 am
  • This move is simply about 1 thing:

    Getting more pass rush/talent on the field.

    Clemons is ahead of schedule and they had to figure out a way to get on these guys on the field and play them all regularly. Clemons, Avril, Bennett, and Irvin will all get playing time but there is more ways Pete can get them on the field if he can move them around in multiple different positions.

    There were reports earlier of having Avril play some at LB, is he also too small to play DE???

    This is definitely not about Irvin being "too small". I get so sick and tired of hearing people say that. It's completely ignorant and lazy research! Last season (in Irvin's rookie year) he was 6 lbs. less than Clemons. Bruce was 3 lbs. HEAVIER than Robert Mathis who's been pretty damn good at DE for indy until last year when he got moved to OLB...

    And that was last year in his rookie year before he really got the benefit of NFL weight training. If reports of a 10-12 lbs. muscle gain are true about Bruce then he is well above the average 4-3 DE weight of 250 lbs.

    The media is stupid and I expect to hear this bs from them but people, don't be ignorant Seahawks fans, especially concerning our own players... Google is your friend
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:56 am
  • seahawkfreak wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:I love it, i don't see him as a legit DE, too small... in order to succeed there, he'd really need to develope solid moves other than the bull and speed rush.. I love the move... How is his coverage skills though?


    why is everyone saying he's to small? Him and Chris Clemons are the same height and Clemons weighs 7 lbs more than Irvin.


    If you read my post i said he is too small and lacks all the moves to be successful at this time, if he want's to succeed at that position he needs to aquire more moves like Clemons who is successful at the position..

    He was what 247lbs last season, he didn't put on the extra weight until this offseason so he was a good 10-15lbs lighter than Clemons. I don't care what people say that's small for a DE, you have to be a pretty special player to be successful at that size, he is not there YET, that's all i'm saying.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:10 am
  • This Irvin too small stuff is entertaining in a way. I've followed Clem's career for a very long time and he spent most of his career at 240, which is the same as when he was drafted. As a Leo you line up between 7 to 9 like a 3-4 OLB and not a conventional 4-3 DE. Clem put on 15 pounds of weight when he came to Seattle and it's helped him greatly, but the amount of bile I keep seeing about Irvin's size "as a DE" is indicative of the lack of perspective on the LEO position and player progression from rookie to veteran.

    Irvin is much, much farther along than Clem was at this point.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:49 am
  • Thanks for the opinion, I know what i watched on tv last season.. He had the majority of his sacks in a handful of games, let's not pretend he was consistant in any fashion last season, and was pretty much non exsistant the second half of the season.. I watched him time and time again try and use the bull/speed rush only to get tossed aside or O'layed right past the pocket.. I'm not saying he's not talented or lacks potential, I'm saying he needs more moves or more size. JMO
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:54 am
  • hawker84 wrote:Thanks for the opinion, I know what i watched on tv last season.. He had the majority of his sacks in a handful of games, let's not pretend he was consistant in any fashion last season, and was pretty much non exsistant the second half of the season.. I watched him time and time again try and use the bull/speed rush only to get tossed aside or O'layed right past the pocket.. I'm not saying he's not talented or lacks potential, I'm saying he needs more moves or more size. JMO

    Understood, and you're right to an extent in that he does need a bit more strength and to be a better technician/tactician, but given where he's at as a rookie there really isn't much cause for concern, IMO. He's certainly not a polished player last year and still won't be this year.
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Irvin to OLBer
Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:30 pm
  • Clayton said over the weekend something I think I agree with. He said it will allow him to move in space rush for different places and he way or may not put a hand down, like Clay Mathews . Quinn I think can do some good things with him I suspect that way.
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:15 pm
  • vin.couve12 wrote:This Irvin too small stuff is entertaining in a way. I've followed Clem's career for a very long time and he spent most of his career at 240, which is the same as when he was drafted. As a Leo you line up between 7 to 9 like a 3-4 OLB and not a conventional 4-3 DE. Clem put on 15 pounds of weight when he came to Seattle and it's helped him greatly, but the amount of bile I keep seeing about Irvin's size "as a DE" is indicative of the lack of perspective on the LEO position and player progression from rookie to veteran.

    Irvin is much, much farther along than Clem was at this point.


    I did a Clemons/Irvin comparison pretty much to show where both players were upon their entry level but got lot of hate solely because people were thinking that I was trying to say Irvin was better than Chris Clemons now.

    http://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69512

    As you said Clemons entered the league at 236 pounds, Bruce Irvin entered at 245. Clemons today is at 254, Irvin today is at least 255+ but I would garner around 260. Irvin said something like he put on 10 pounds in the off-season and was going to try to put on 5 more by training camp.

    But people need to realize that if Irvin is going to play SAM, then the need to compare him to DE position is kind of unnecessary.

    Irvin already is the biggest LBer at 6-3, 255+, probably still the fastest non-defensive back defender, and compared to 2012 SAM K.J. Wright, 6-4, 246, they have about the same lower body strength but Irvin entered the league statistically stronger than Wright.

    Frankly, I think Irvin will be an Aaron Curry like talent at SAM but a much viable pass-rusher and someone who probably is more natural in coverage due to his athleticism although I don't see Irvin getting many coverage snaps.

    *edit*

    *Also, just so people don't put words in my mouth, I'm not saying Irvin will be a better LBer at SAM than K.J. Wright, only that Irvin is now bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic than K.J. Wright.

    If everything goes to according to the Seahawk's plan in that Dan Quinn can coach these guys up as well as Irvin and Wright putting the maximum effort in their new positions. Seahawks are going to have a crazy breed of defense. I know at least Quinn is loving him some Wright and said nothing but great things about him at WLB. Even calling Wright, one of the best players this off-season, naming him along with Earl Thomas. I really can't say anything negative about Wright's positional move only because I think it will be an upgrade over what LeRoy Hill gave us the last couple of years even though some think Wright isn't suited to play WILL. However, I don't think Dan Quinn is going to hand out false appraisal just because he can... so my optimistic assumption is that Wright will transition well to the Weak-Side.

    So its all up to Irvin to put in the work to be prepared physically (which he's already done) and mentally (which remains to be seen) but if Irvin can accomplish what many Seahawks fans doubt, we are talking about crazy big and tall base defense in the making:

    Clemons/Avril at LEO (6-3, 254/260 pounds)
    Jesse Williams/Tony McDaniel (6-4, 325 pounds/ 6-7, 307 pounds) replacing 6-6, 320 Alan Branch
    Brandon Mebane (6-1, 311 pounds)
    Red Bryant (6-4, 320 pounds)

    Bruce Irvin (6-3, 255-260 pounds) replacing Wright
    Bobby Wagner (6-0, 241 pounds)
    K.J. Wright (6-3, 246 pounds) replacing 6-1, 238 LeRoy Hill.

    Brandon Browner (6-4, 221 pounds)
    Earl Thomas (5-10, 202 pounds)
    Kam Chanchellor (6-3, 232 pounds)
    Richard Sherman (6-3, 195 pounds)

    With Antoine Winfield, Walter Thurmond, Michael Bennett, and Jordan Hill waiting in various sub-packages amongst others its going to be legend-wait-for-it-f**king-dary.*
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:33 am
  • Great post as usual Pandion, thanks....
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Re: Irvin to OLBer
Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:56 pm
  • "If everything goes to according to the Seahawk's plan in that Dan Quinn can coach these guys up as well as Irvin and Wright putting the maximum effort in their new positions. Seahawks are going to have a crazy breed of defense". ~Pandion

    Not suggesting you are...but the one thing regarding Irvin, that I am not concerned with is his effort. More times than not, Irvin looked the definition of "crazy" last year. Doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. Speed rush, speed rush, speed rush. BUT as crazy and exhaustive as it all appeared, I never saw him take plays off and seldom witnessed him overly frustrated. That impressed me a lot and Pete had to have felt the same. It was like Pete was intentionally trying to wilt Irvin in last year's pre-season (in particular). I have no numbers to support this, but I doubt any D player played as many pre-season snaps as BI. Wherever we line him up this year, I believe his effort will top the reasons we should anticipate his success.
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