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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:30 am 
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Irvin had 8 sacks as a rookie, obviously productive so it is not like he is being moved for under performing. It is pretty realistic to think if they played him in the same role as last year he would be at least as good and likely a little better but with the addition of Avril, development of others, scheme changes and Clemons being ahead of schedule we end up with to many players in the same position and that would serve to get Irvin less playing time.

Before you make to harsh a judgement on whether he will be able succeed at LB with his lack of experience, how did you think Red Bryant would do at DE? Quinn was given credit for that move and it took a player who was under achieving on the inside and made him very productive on the outside. I won't judge the move until I see how it plays out but I think it is safe to say they want him on the field more than they would have been able to with all the competition so this move to me doesn't look like a negative, it looks like trying the best possible combinations to get the best players on the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:31 am 
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This move is simply about 1 thing:

Getting more pass rush/talent on the field.

Clemons is ahead of schedule and they had to figure out a way to get on these guys on the field and play them all regularly. Clemons, Avril, Bennett, and Irvin will all get playing time but there is more ways Pete can get them on the field if he can move them around in multiple different positions.

There were reports earlier of having Avril play some at LB, is he also too small to play DE???

This is definitely not about Irvin being "too small". I get so sick and tired of hearing people say that. It's completely ignorant and lazy research! Last season (in Irvin's rookie year) he was 6 lbs. less than Clemons. Bruce was 3 lbs. HEAVIER than Robert Mathis who's been pretty damn good at DE for indy until last year when he got moved to OLB...

And that was last year in his rookie year before he really got the benefit of NFL weight training. If reports of a 10-12 lbs. muscle gain are true about Bruce then he is well above the average 4-3 DE weight of 250 lbs.

The media is stupid and I expect to hear this bs from them but people, don't be ignorant Seahawks fans, especially concerning our own players... Google is your friend


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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:56 am 
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seahawkfreak wrote:
hawker84 wrote:
I love it, i don't see him as a legit DE, too small... in order to succeed there, he'd really need to develope solid moves other than the bull and speed rush.. I love the move... How is his coverage skills though?


why is everyone saying he's to small? Him and Chris Clemons are the same height and Clemons weighs 7 lbs more than Irvin.


If you read my post i said he is too small and lacks all the moves to be successful at this time, if he want's to succeed at that position he needs to aquire more moves like Clemons who is successful at the position..

He was what 247lbs last season, he didn't put on the extra weight until this offseason so he was a good 10-15lbs lighter than Clemons. I don't care what people say that's small for a DE, you have to be a pretty special player to be successful at that size, he is not there YET, that's all i'm saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:10 am 
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This Irvin too small stuff is entertaining in a way. I've followed Clem's career for a very long time and he spent most of his career at 240, which is the same as when he was drafted. As a Leo you line up between 7 to 9 like a 3-4 OLB and not a conventional 4-3 DE. Clem put on 15 pounds of weight when he came to Seattle and it's helped him greatly, but the amount of bile I keep seeing about Irvin's size "as a DE" is indicative of the lack of perspective on the LEO position and player progression from rookie to veteran.

Irvin is much, much farther along than Clem was at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:49 am 
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Thanks for the opinion, I know what i watched on tv last season.. He had the majority of his sacks in a handful of games, let's not pretend he was consistant in any fashion last season, and was pretty much non exsistant the second half of the season.. I watched him time and time again try and use the bull/speed rush only to get tossed aside or O'layed right past the pocket.. I'm not saying he's not talented or lacks potential, I'm saying he needs more moves or more size. JMO

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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:54 am 
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hawker84 wrote:
Thanks for the opinion, I know what i watched on tv last season.. He had the majority of his sacks in a handful of games, let's not pretend he was consistant in any fashion last season, and was pretty much non exsistant the second half of the season.. I watched him time and time again try and use the bull/speed rush only to get tossed aside or O'layed right past the pocket.. I'm not saying he's not talented or lacks potential, I'm saying he needs more moves or more size. JMO

Understood, and you're right to an extent in that he does need a bit more strength and to be a better technician/tactician, but given where he's at as a rookie there really isn't much cause for concern, IMO. He's certainly not a polished player last year and still won't be this year.


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 Post subject: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Clayton said over the weekend something I think I agree with. He said it will allow him to move in space rush for different places and he way or may not put a hand down, like Clay Mathews . Quinn I think can do some good things with him I suspect that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:15 pm 
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vin.couve12 wrote:
This Irvin too small stuff is entertaining in a way. I've followed Clem's career for a very long time and he spent most of his career at 240, which is the same as when he was drafted. As a Leo you line up between 7 to 9 like a 3-4 OLB and not a conventional 4-3 DE. Clem put on 15 pounds of weight when he came to Seattle and it's helped him greatly, but the amount of bile I keep seeing about Irvin's size "as a DE" is indicative of the lack of perspective on the LEO position and player progression from rookie to veteran.

Irvin is much, much farther along than Clem was at this point.


I did a Clemons/Irvin comparison pretty much to show where both players were upon their entry level but got lot of hate solely because people were thinking that I was trying to say Irvin was better than Chris Clemons now.

http://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69512

As you said Clemons entered the league at 236 pounds, Bruce Irvin entered at 245. Clemons today is at 254, Irvin today is at least 255+ but I would garner around 260. Irvin said something like he put on 10 pounds in the off-season and was going to try to put on 5 more by training camp.

But people need to realize that if Irvin is going to play SAM, then the need to compare him to DE position is kind of unnecessary.

Irvin already is the biggest LBer at 6-3, 255+, probably still the fastest non-defensive back defender, and compared to 2012 SAM K.J. Wright, 6-4, 246, they have about the same lower body strength but Irvin entered the league statistically stronger than Wright.

Frankly, I think Irvin will be an Aaron Curry like talent at SAM but a much viable pass-rusher and someone who probably is more natural in coverage due to his athleticism although I don't see Irvin getting many coverage snaps.

*edit*

*Also, just so people don't put words in my mouth, I'm not saying Irvin will be a better LBer at SAM than K.J. Wright, only that Irvin is now bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic than K.J. Wright.

If everything goes to according to the Seahawk's plan in that Dan Quinn can coach these guys up as well as Irvin and Wright putting the maximum effort in their new positions. Seahawks are going to have a crazy breed of defense. I know at least Quinn is loving him some Wright and said nothing but great things about him at WLB. Even calling Wright, one of the best players this off-season, naming him along with Earl Thomas. I really can't say anything negative about Wright's positional move only because I think it will be an upgrade over what LeRoy Hill gave us the last couple of years even though some think Wright isn't suited to play WILL. However, I don't think Dan Quinn is going to hand out false appraisal just because he can... so my optimistic assumption is that Wright will transition well to the Weak-Side.

So its all up to Irvin to put in the work to be prepared physically (which he's already done) and mentally (which remains to be seen) but if Irvin can accomplish what many Seahawks fans doubt, we are talking about crazy big and tall base defense in the making:

Clemons/Avril at LEO (6-3, 254/260 pounds)
Jesse Williams/Tony McDaniel (6-4, 325 pounds/ 6-7, 307 pounds) replacing 6-6, 320 Alan Branch
Brandon Mebane (6-1, 311 pounds)
Red Bryant (6-4, 320 pounds)

Bruce Irvin (6-3, 255-260 pounds) replacing Wright
Bobby Wagner (6-0, 241 pounds)
K.J. Wright (6-3, 246 pounds) replacing 6-1, 238 LeRoy Hill.

Brandon Browner (6-4, 221 pounds)
Earl Thomas (5-10, 202 pounds)
Kam Chanchellor (6-3, 232 pounds)
Richard Sherman (6-3, 195 pounds)

With Antoine Winfield, Walter Thurmond, Michael Bennett, and Jordan Hill waiting in various sub-packages amongst others its going to be legend-wait-for-it-f**king-dary.*

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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:33 am 
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Great post as usual Pandion, thanks....

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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:56 pm 
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"If everything goes to according to the Seahawk's plan in that Dan Quinn can coach these guys up as well as Irvin and Wright putting the maximum effort in their new positions. Seahawks are going to have a crazy breed of defense". ~Pandion

Not suggesting you are...but the one thing regarding Irvin, that I am not concerned with is his effort. More times than not, Irvin looked the definition of "crazy" last year. Doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. Speed rush, speed rush, speed rush. BUT as crazy and exhaustive as it all appeared, I never saw him take plays off and seldom witnessed him overly frustrated. That impressed me a lot and Pete had to have felt the same. It was like Pete was intentionally trying to wilt Irvin in last year's pre-season (in particular). I have no numbers to support this, but I doubt any D player played as many pre-season snaps as BI. Wherever we line him up this year, I believe his effort will top the reasons we should anticipate his success.


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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:58 pm 
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They wanted him to be a DL, but it is not to be as he is too small and he got caught taking roids trying to get more weight on so this is not going to work. I think they are admitting that this is not the guy they thought they drafted. Moving him to OLB is a good idea, but now he has to pass cover and he has never done that. Carroll is stuck with guy. Add the problem with Clemons ACL and now a whole new problem has opened up called the Defensive Line. This will be the Hawks weak spot this year. Bennett and Arvil were not let go because they are good. TB and Detriot understood those 2 guys looked good because of the others around them. Be interesting to see how it turns out.


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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:02 pm 
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vanillasuede wrote:
They wanted him to be a DL, but it is not to be as he is too small and he got caught taking roids trying to get more weight on so this is not going to work. I think they are admitting that this is not the guy they thought they drafted. Moving him to OLB is a good idea, but now he has to pass cover and he has never done that. Carroll is stuck with guy. Add the problem with Clemons ACL and now a whole new problem has opened up called the Defensive Line. This will be the Hawks weak spot this year. Bennett and Arvil were not let go because they are good. TB and Detriot understood those 2 guys looked good because of the others around them. Be interesting to see how it turns out.


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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Besides RB, LB might be the most instinctive position on the field, especially in a variation of the 4-3. There is just so much going on, and so many responsibilities, and you don't have a quarter of a second to think. Good LB's are born, not coached. There is a wrinkle here we are yet to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:52 pm 
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I hope we blitz him early and often.

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 Post subject: Re: Irvin to OLBer
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:47 am 
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kearly wrote:
CALIHAWK1 wrote:
^So if KJ moved to Will and Irvin is at Sam why is he competing with Malcolm Smith for thst spot instead of Toomer, Morgan or one of the other bigger LBs?

My opinion is we are going to see a bunch of new and different stuff. I also think we will see more 3-4 looks.


Avril is going to SAM and he wasn't mentioned as being in competition with Irvin, so that logic cuts both ways. We're going to see a gazillion combinations out there in August, but if for arguments sake Smith ended up at SAM with Wright at WILL, that would completely mystify me. Though I guess it wouldn't be the first time Pete did something counter to convention on defense, I suppose.

As far as the 5 man rushes, I think that's a good thing. It was either FO or Advanced NFL stats that proved how defenses are at their best when they rush 5, with a 4 man rush being a close second.

As has been said though, I think a lot of Irvin's LB play time could just be in a spinner role on 3rd downs, and in those cases he'll be our 4th rusher, even as a blitzing LB.


Ive heard Avril to SAM but nothing official. Just here. I have read on the team site and heard KJ say he is switching to the othet side. I just assumed WILL. The article stayes that Irvin is going to move to SAM and compete with Smith for the starting spot which he will likely win once back from suspension. I wouldn't sleep on Smith. It will be interesting.


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