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 Post subject: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:56 am 
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http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/948 ... arterbacks

...and he likes Russell the most in 2013.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:35 am 
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Wilson and Griffin are super-efficient at a higher level than even Kaepernick was. If Griffin's knee holds up, It will be between he and Wilson for who plays the best this year with Kaepernick bringing up a close third.

I am sure that Luck will improve his efficiency this year, but I would like to make sure he's not an interception machine at this level before mentioning him in the conversation.

Maybe it's my love of the high efficiency of the West Coast offense that has me valuing efficiency over almost everything else in a QB, but that's what I will mostly focus on to evaluate who is better, and that seems to be what Barnwell prefers whenever I read his stuff, too. Who can mix the highest efficiency (least INTs, highest comp. pct, highest YPC) with the most big plays of 20+ yards (I figure advancing at least 1/5th of the field one on play counts as "big")?

The nice thing is that if you ask the fans of Seattle, D.C., Indy, and San Francisco, none of those fans would trade their QB for any of the others. Lots of good talent here.

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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:42 am 
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I think he is gonna be on 710 later today, just a heads up. Danny just mentioned he was coming on the show.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:48 am 
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I like the fact that he mentions that Wilson had one of the more tougher schedules in the NFL.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:13 am 
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Man, the comparison of his first 5 games to his last 13 is just absolutely ridiculous. And he's only going to get better. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:29 am 
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Finally, an article that mentions SOS. Thank god. Its like people never even consider the possibility of stats being inflated or suppressed by the competition you face.

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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:56 am 
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I think of the 4 QB's profiled, Russell and Kaepernick stand out because of their supporting cast on both sides of the ball. If you are going to rephrase the question, who of the 4 will be more successful in 2013, it has to be Russell and Kaepernick.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:16 am 
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Incorrect

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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:29 am 
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SE174 wrote:
Man, the comparison of his first 5 games to his last 13 is just absolutely ridiculous. And he's only going to get better. :shock:



Heh. Was bored yesterday so I went to the very last page of the .NET Nation forum. The last posts there were just after the Rams game--lots and LOTS of debate about benching him for Flynn because he seemed overwhelmed at times.

Everyone should go mine the old posts for data--see and remember .Net freaking out about it's starting QB! Thankfully we won't be having those discussions again for another dozen years or so (wood knock).

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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:24 pm 
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Haven't read the article yet, but from my own eyes my breakdown would be as follows amongst the young QBs

Tier 1 (in no order): G3,Wilson, Newton (love his game, total package, unwarranted hate IMO)

Tier 2: Kaep (small sample size right now, but another half season like he played last year and he joins the top guys)

Tier 3: Luck (better decision making, less turnovers, and if he shows up against a less cupcake schedule there is nothing not to like and he becomes on par with G3 and Wilson)


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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:44 pm 
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kobebryant wrote:
Haven't read the article yet, but from my own eyes my breakdown would be as follows amongst the young QBs

Tier 1 (in no order): G3,Wilson, Newton (love his game, total package, unwarranted hate IMO)

Tier 2: Kaep (small sample size right now, but another half season like he played last year and he joins the top guys)

Tier 3: Luck (better decision making, less turnovers, and if he shows up against a less cupcake schedule there is nothing not to like and he becomes on par with G3 and Wilson)



I think you rate Newton, keep and even RG3, too high. But you are not alone. If all parts were equal (SOS, surrounding cast, etc), I'd put Wilson at the top (not being a homer...seriously) and Luck would follow. After that? I don't think it will matter. Not long term.

The reason I have RW at the top is his head. The same (I believe) can be said for Luck. These two are clearly team first, ego second. I don't get that from the others. I'm not calling Kaep, Newton or Griffin selfish, in fact, the opposite may be true..BUT...I do see those guys more apt to take unnecessary risks on the football field, trying to make something out of nothing to wow their fans and FO. I predict all 3 will suffer the same fate as Vick. Yes, they are bigger and stronger but when you are getting slammed by guys out weighing them by 100 lbs, how much does that really matter? NFL= Not For Long and that's my unbiased prediction for Kaep, Newton and RG3. They will be their own worst enemies (aside from Shanahan, that is).


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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:52 pm 
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That argument about "unnecessary risks" and how hard these players try as a mark against them is a weird argument. It's like people who complained that Ichiro took walks for his stats and not for the team. Getting on base helps the team. Getting a first down helps the team. Nothing about running and trying to get a couple extra yards has anything to do with egocentric thinking or team-based thinking. It's all about winning.

Sometimes fans do some odd mental gymnastics to try to get into a player's head and assume that they know that RGIII or Kaepernick straining for a first down is them trying "to wow their fans and FO."

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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:25 pm 
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You do understand the meaning of the word "unnecessary", don't you? How's this; 3rd and 10, Wilson sees the marker, sees the potential tackler, gets the first down and (safely) goes out of bounds. First down.

Kaep, Newton and RG3, same play but stay in bounds taking the hit for an extra yard. Hobble back under center and either need a time out or prove to be ineffective the next play..(or more).

I'm uncertain how much football you watch. I watch a lot. I saw this time after time last year and anticipate seeing more of the same again this year.

What amounts to "mental gymnastics" for you, is no more than common sense for others.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Giedi wrote:
I think of the 4 QB's profiled, Russell and Kaepernick stand out because of their supporting cast on both sides of the ball. If you are going to rephrase the question, who of the 4 will be more successful in 2013, it has to be Russell and Kaepernick.

All that's true, but these two face off against each other two times a Year, with the possibility of meeting again in the playoffs.
The SOS forces both these guys to up their game, but having Percy Harvin in the line-up should take away some of the amped up pressure that Russell Wilson will be facing, while Kaepernick has lost his go to Receiver in Michael Crabtree.
It's a given that all four of these guys will be facing a more wised up Defensive Coaches and players in 2013, but I don't expect that any of them have leveled off in their abilities to digest, and rev up to meet those challenges.
I do know that Russell Wilson hasn't been resting on his past performances, and I assume that none of the other three have either.


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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:51 pm 
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HawkWow wrote:
You do understand the meaning of the word "unnecessary", don't you? How's this; 3rd and 10, Wilson sees the marker, sees the potential tackler, gets the first down and (safely) goes out of bounds. First down.

Kaep, Newton and RG3, same play but stay in bounds taking the hit for an extra yard. Hobble back under center and either need a time out or prove to be ineffective the next play..(or more).

I'm uncertain how much football you watch. I watch a lot. I saw this time after time last year and anticipate seeing more of the same again this year.

What amounts to "mental gymnastics" for you, is no more than common sense for others.


You are putting up a strawman and then trying to back it up with an appeal to authority regarding how much football you watch.

Try to focus. You, in your initial statement, tried to tie RGIII or Kaepernick playing for extra yards and getting injured to some nebulous ideas about "putting the team first" and "ego" as if you can read into the reasons that RGIII or Kaepernick may make those plays, as if this may not be just something that these players have to learn because they are using to being demonstrably better and faster than almost every college defense they ever came up against, as if you know for a fact that these QBs play the way that they do to impress the FO or the fans first and foremost (your words, by the way).

So spare me your "I WATCH A LOT OF FOOTBALL DUR HUR HURR" and stop acting like you know why these players do what they do on the field. Thanks, champ.

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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:47 pm 
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kobebryant wrote:
Haven't read the article yet, but from my own eyes my breakdown would be as follows amongst the young QBs

Tier 1 (in no order): G3,Wilson, Newton (love his game, total package, unwarranted hate IMO)

Tier 2: Kaep (small sample size right now, but another half season like he played last year and he joins the top guys)

Tier 3: Luck (better decision making, less turnovers, and if he shows up against a less cupcake schedule there is nothing not to like and he becomes on par with G3 and Wilson)

I like the complete package with Newton as well, but there's no way getting around it to be a SB QB you must have the intangibles and leadership, I don't think Newton has that. Good QB for a long time, yes. Top flight QB with multiple rings or even 1, not a chance


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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:40 pm 
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C'mon guys peeing on each others shoes causes a total breakdown of reasonable discussion and makes the threads less pleasant to read as debating points are made and polite slanging or less polite slaging of each other becomes the focus of the posts. JMO but you both have made good points. It is actually possible to debate w/o twitting the other persons observations. Just because you disagree doesn't in fact make one side right right or the other side wrong. Try to avoid ad hominem argument it only creates more ad hominem, hard feelings, and we are supposed to be friends here.

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 Post subject: Re: Barnwell breaks down the Young QB's
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Giedi wrote:
I think of the 4 QB's profiled, Russell and Kaepernick stand out because of their supporting cast on both sides of the ball. If you are going to rephrase the question, who of the 4 will be more successful in 2013, it has to be Russell and Kaepernick.


I agree with the highlighted part but the rest makes no sense at all unless you are predicting that Lockette and Martin are suddenly going to become probowlers. And I don't mean on the bowling tour which is probably just as likely.

Keap is returning one guy that has caught a pass from him in the past and one guy that has shown to be a very good #2 receiver when a #1 receiver draws coverage away from him. Beyond that his remaining core is a cast of nobodies trying to replace his #1 and #2 targets. Those top two targets made up for way more than half of San Frans passing attack and most importantly 3rd down and red zone efficiency.

Wilson is returning his entire receiving core of which he has even more chemistry and experience with and adding one of the most dynamic receivers in the game who will undoubtedly draw coverage away from every other receiver he throws to.

Do tell how that supporting cast on offense should help Kaep to be more successful (your phrase, not meaning than Wilson) in 2013.

I will tell you this, if Kaep is even in the conversation next year I will be impressed but not because I don't think he can be good but because his supporting cast would normally be the downfall of a good QB. Kind of the point made in the article. If Kaep can make receivers out of that group I will openly admit he is is good but I really don't expect it.

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