Deeper looks at the oline

At first I figured we were just getting manhandled on the line for easy sacks, simply being overpowered.
for a clearer explanation of what I am talking about, think about Jon Carlson trying to pass protect for hasselbeck against then Houston defensive end Mario Williams a few years ago. guys getting owned one on to bull rushes which is always debilitating.

however on further review of the st.louis rams game, it appears to be more of an issue of fits and understanding assignments than a simple case of rookies being overpowered. the sacks were largely the case of people flat out missing assignments, allowing for free runners off the edge to get at Wilson.

While on its surface this may look like there is no difference, missed assigments and schemes can be fixed within a week. something Pete seemed to elude to as he said "the problem has already been fixed". this seemed really odd for an Oline that while battered, seemed to have improved to at least serviceable over the last two games.

I don't think we are in as bad of a situation as we think, plus bren and kung coming back.

My frustration from the Rams game was more that the line seemed to regress instead of getting better, and this despite the same 5 guys being together for a few games now. Maybe they'll turn a corner somehow.

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

I think there is a lot of overthinking and trying to compensate for things.

It is one thing if one guy is new and learning (Bowie, as a for instance). But not only does he have to be wary of his mistakes but he also has to try to compensate for the mistakes of others. And the other guy has to do the same. If we had Okung and Breno in, and everyone playing their real position, then I think that you would find some of these young guys making less mistakes too. Because they would only have to focus on their play.

Right now, everyone is waiting for the other shoe to drop and so they are doing what any organization does when certain members are struggling - they are trying to have other members of the organization cover for them. Of course this pulls them off their own primary focus and they start making errors too. There is the snowball effect as people expect bad things and try to react to

My worry is that with younger players it causes people to learn bad habits. I think the line is going to continue to get worse over time until we get our people back. Even then, we are going to have to deal with people trying to remove some of the bad habits that they have gotten into in order to compensate for the problems they have been used to this year. Hopefully one of the older players will help get this line stable, but they cannot do that until it gets healthy.

Otherwise, that will be the weakness in the playoffs and teams like the 49ers and Saints will exploit it.

But an additional concern is the struggling/track record of struggling is going to draw additional scrutiny. We all know there are borderline holding plays and missed holding plays in plenty of games. But given we have a record of it, I imagine that refs are going to be more willing to believe they saw it and more willing to call it. For the same reason umpires give great pitchers borderline calls and squeeze wild pitchers a bit. You lose the benefit of the doubt.

True, last game was the worst performance of our offensive line for the year and maybe one of the worst I have seen (rivaling GB OL vs us in the fail mary game). So judging a group on the worst score in a batch is not really fair, but it is going to make it hard to fix things even when guys get healthy because we are conditioning everyone to expect poor OL play before the snap. Also, usually games like this are a harbinger of things to come in more important games/playoffs so hopefully it can be fixed.

brimsalabim":2q8xcp29 said:

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

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Exactly. Poor game plan, poor adjustments by the coaching staff. And it's not like out o-line, even when fully healthy hasn't had issues with the Lambs in previous games. I still can't believe that was the type of game plan/blocking schemes we saw after 11 days between games. A real low point in Pete's time in Seattle IMO.

Not sure if anybody caught Cable's interview on Brock & Danny this morning but I thought his comment about how they "were simply run by" was an admission that you can't really do THAT much about players sucking and/or not doing their job.

I anticipate less of what we saw against STL this week, but I wouldn't count on the problems being "fixed".

I agree that this is the case with Bowie, Sweezy, Carp, and at times, Unger.

But McQuistan just can't hack Tackle physically. It was a big mistake to try and plug him in there. Should have went with Bailey or a FA pickup immediately.

brimsalabim":2bc6kb15 said:

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

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Couldn't agree more! The whole game I was screaming "MOVE THE POCKET!!!" then one of the first things Steve Young says "I just don't understand why you don't move the pocket; try to help this young quarterback out?"

We can all say what we want about McQuistan and Bowie (sorry if I misspelled names) ya compared to two of the best D Ends in the league, they stink! but damn!!!! Help a brother out! Double tight, Two back set, screens, draws, All great ways to make those ding dongs on the outside have to slow the hell down and give RW a chance! I put this one solely on Bevell's shoulders not Tom Cable....who I think is the best O line coach in the NFL (personal opinion).

brimsalabim":3lkepyj0 said:

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

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This is why despite me being the number #1 critic of the oline, starting many weaks ago when I posted this thread after the Texan's win: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=75038

Stating that the Hawks need to:
"They need to go out and try some olinemen off the street. They need to make trades (don't know if this is possible). They need to try out some practice squad members. They need to drill this oline over and over and over again and get them playing right. Don't let it go until the playoffs when this oline may be exposed. Okung is of the utmost importance. I thought that this oline, even with the injuries, would play much better than it did. But they failed and were bailed out big time by Wilson."

All while getting flamed by 90% of the board mind you...I was stating just how weak this Oline was. But I can't put the most blame on them. The most blame MUST go to the coaching staff and specifically Bevell. I think if the main issue was with the oline, Caroll would not have said "we fixed the problem on the flight home" after the Rams fiasco. How can you fix an f up by the oline on the flight home? What you can fix is an absolute travesty by the coaches and the playcalling. A million other people have stated over and over:

1) Why not chip the edge rushers with WRs, RBs, TEs or even other olinemen?
2) Why not concentrate on running the ball, even if it isn't working?
3) Why not run screens, bubble WR screens, TE screens?
4) Why not concentrate on short routes, hooks, outs, slants, TE seams, etc. 3 step drops
5) Why not move the pocket?
6) Why not max protect?
7) Hard counts?
And the list goes on and on. The truth is that the Hawks did not make adjustments, the coaching staff was caught like a deer in the headlights. Sure they tried a slant here or there, they tried running the ball here or there, but this was swamped by their 5-7 step drops while the edge rushers came off the line untouched, while they stunted, while they basically reeped havoc.

It was unexcusable by the coaching staff what happened on Monday night. They are 80% to blame for Russell getting molested out there over and over.

Some delayed runs (draws) bubble screens would have helped. The have to assume McQ is always going to fail against edge rushers. Either make them pay like when the flip the ball over the DEs head to lynch for a big gain. Keep the TE on that side to help. Fullback helps Sweezy out if not a run. Bowie gets even more confused with help he does not know what to do

plyka":3kbna3k5 said:

brimsalabim":3kbna3k5 said:

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

Click to expand...

This is why despite me being the number #1 critic of the oline, starting many weaks ago when I posted this thread after the Texan's win: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=75038

Stating that the Hawks need to:
"They need to go out and try some olinemen off the street. They need to make trades (don't know if this is possible). They need to try out some practice squad members. They need to drill this oline over and over and over again and get them playing right. Don't let it go until the playoffs when this oline may be exposed. Okung is of the utmost importance. I thought that this oline, even with the injuries, would play much better than it did. But they failed and were bailed out big time by Wilson."

All while getting flamed by 90% of the board mind you...I was stating just how weak this Oline was. But I can't put the most blame on them. The most blame MUST go to the coaching staff and specifically Bevell. I think if the main issue was with the oline, Caroll would not have said "we fixed the problem on the flight home" after the Rams fiasco. How can you fix an f up by the oline on the flight home? What you can fix is an absolute travesty by the coaches and the playcalling. A million other people have stated over and over:

1) Why not chip the edge rushers with WRs, RBs, TEs or even other olinemen?
2) Why not concentrate on running the ball, even if it isn't working?
3) Why not run screens, bubble WR screens, TE screens?
4) Why not concentrate on short routes, hooks, outs, slants, TE seams, etc. 3 step drops
5) Why not move the pocket?
6) Why not max protect?
7) Hard counts?
And the list goes on and on. The truth is that the Hawks did not make adjustments, the coaching staff was caught like a deer in the headlights. Sure they tried a slant here or there, they tried running the ball here or there, but this was swamped by their 5-7 step drops while the edge rushers came off the line untouched, while they stunted, while they basically reeped havoc.

It was unexcusable by the coaching staff what happened on Monday night. They are 80% to blame for Russell getting molested out there over and over.

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DITTO!!! Brilliantly stated!

brimsalabim":ernlfcbp said:

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

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Think about the GB last year. What did we have 8 sacks in the first half?

Don't think we had one in the second (might have had one that was called a sack that I think wasn't really one)

Point being the talking heads are right. Coaching staffs are supposed to fix things in half-time. They are supposed to do something that changes the outcome of the plays even when you have inferior players on a position. Double-team, chips etc

There were several plays where I could identify an unblocked guy before the play..... and I suck at the strategy part

I would cry tears of joy if the hawks announced today that they convinced John Gruden to become their new offensive coordinator I'm watching NFL Network and they're doing a piece on Gruden...dang that guy is awesome but with his short fuse and lack of patience he'd be a better coordinator than head coach so he can reduce his stress load and just focus on offense. He'd never go for it but a guy can dream

hangumhi":1mlsdhoa said:

I would cry tears of joy if the hawks announced today that they convinced John Gruden to become their new offensive coordinator I'm watching NFL Network and they're doing a piece on Gruden...dang that guy is awesome but with his short fuse and lack of patience he'd be a better coordinator than head coach so he can reduce his stress load and just focus on offense. He'd never go for it but a guy can dream

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I'd love it because I'll bet he'd try some moving pockets, screens, draws, DE chip blocks, more than 8 runs from Beast in a game, etc., etc.........

hangumhi":1plwmycj said:

brimsalabim":1plwmycj said:

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more! The whole game I was screaming "MOVE THE POCKET!!!" then one of the first things Steve Young says "I just don't understand why you don't move the pocket; try to help this young quarterback out?"

We can all say what we want about McQuistan and Bowie (sorry if I misspelled names) ya compared to two of the best D Ends in the league, they stink! but damn!!!! Help a brother out! Double tight, Two back set, screens, draws, All great ways to make those ding dongs on the outside have to slow the hell down and give RW a chance! I put this one solely on Bevell's shoulders not Tom Cable....who I think is the best O line coach in the NFL (personal opinion).

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Oh my god THANK YOU! Could not have said it better. All bevell. He has to be blamed for this. I was yelling "screens bevell" at the tv most the night. It forces the defense to play honest. Surely not an excellent mark on his resume if he wants an HC job somewhere in the future...

brimsalabim":235m1mgw said:

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

Click to expand...

You have to watch that with a super-critical eye because much of it is scripted role playing.

I kinda hope Russell Wilson and the Seahawks pull a end of the season 2012, just so Bevell can get the F up outta here. Score points so we can try someone else, he obviously isn't understanding what needs to be done, and no it's no longer a question it's obvious by any common fan that his play calls at many times could be better.

I'm glad we beat the Rams but holy sh... I don't think I've seen a poorer played win, in fact I can't wait until I can forget about it.

Lots of good posts in this thread, it's about coaches making adjustments and none were made against the Rams or not nearly enough.

hangumhi":21hp20s1 said:

brimsalabim":21hp20s1 said:

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more! The whole game I was screaming "MOVE THE POCKET!!!" then one of the first things Steve Young says "I just don't understand why you don't move the pocket; try to help this young quarterback out?"

We can all say what we want about McQuistan and Bowie (sorry if I misspelled names) ya compared to two of the best D Ends in the league, they stink! but damn!!!! Help a brother out! Double tight, Two back set, screens, draws, All great ways to make those ding dongs on the outside have to slow the hell down and give RW a chance! I put this one solely on Bevell's shoulders not Tom Cable....who I think is the best O line coach in the NFL (personal opinion).

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I couldn't understand why we weren't using more slip screens, bubble screens and well... screens. I can understand why we weren't using more two TE sets because Willson isn't exactly the best blocking TE, so 2 TE sets isn't going to improve pass protection much. M Rob just got back, so he might not have been ready for a full workload, but for the love of God... Can we get a variation of screens to use. Tate is almost the perfect screen receiver and I think we only targeted him once or twice for a screen pass the entire game. Our line is so exposed in pass pro, that an opposing defense would have a hard time telling the difference between a screen play and our poor pass protection. Screens should be an effective option for our offense.

hangumhi":11jrg6xm said:

brimsalabim":11jrg6xm said:

My frustration comes from listning to the NFL network players and the Monday night crew after the game question why we did so little to help our tackles out. It's one thing for us here o formulate opinions but most of these guys played and coached in the NFL. If they are seeing issues then there is somethig to worry about!

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more! The whole game I was screaming "MOVE THE POCKET!!!" then one of the first things Steve Young says "I just don't understand why you don't move the pocket; try to help this young quarterback out?"

We can all say what we want about McQuistan and Bowie (sorry if I misspelled names) ya compared to two of the best D Ends in the league, they stink! but damn!!!! Help a brother out! Double tight, Two back set, screens, draws, All great ways to make those ding dongs on the outside have to slow the hell down and give RW a chance! I put this one solely on Bevell's shoulders not Tom Cable....who I think is the best O line coach in the NFL (personal opinion).

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I respect your opinion, but curious as to what criteria you are using in anointing Cable best in the NFL? I sure the hell don't see it. Even when the line is at it's best, it's so-so and his "can't miss" draft picks are wholesale busts. The reality is Lynch had been Cable's personal smoke screen. I'll be shocked / dismayed / appalled if he is retained for '14.

One of the most patchworked lines in the nfl with a consistent top 5 rushing team....marshawn is great but you don't have the slightest clue if you can't see the half decent line cable constructs week after week with guys who shouldn't be starting....and when did cable become gm? Cable makes tackles out of guards and vice versa and keep in mind those are backups in their regular positions.