Defending our Receivers... Again

Ok, I don't why I get so hypersensitive about criticism of our receivers but I do. Instead of lashing out though, let me just say this.

We have been playing without Percy Harvin all year, and Sydney Rice for half of the year. Then we went into a series against the best defenses in the league.

And still came out with the 1st round bye and Home field through the playoffs. You think that was just Lynch?

Per DVOA Doug Baldwin ended up as the #2 receiver in the league (basically this means "clutch" receiver). You remember all those games (4 I can remember) in the 4th quarter where it came down to a 3rd down converting pass to Doug Baldwin? That's why he is #2.

Remember that Kearse catch in the Carolina game in the 4th quarter? We would be playing at Candlestick park this week without that catch.

Remember that one arm Golden Tate catch? Again, you want to play at Candlestick? We would be without that catch.

In my mind some analysts are mistaking numbers for quality of receiving. This is a huge mistake. And don't mistake a couple of dropped passes that past 2 games for a lack of talent. That was a RARE lack of concentration. Don't worry, this is group that learns from it's mistakes, I don't expect to see those drops in this game.

Or look at it another way. Take the two best receivers out of these teams and how do they play (after all we are missing two of our "best" receivers).

Broncos: Take away the 2 Thomas's? They still the #1 AFC Seed? (Seahawks are, and they did it without their 2 "top" receivers)
Bengals: Heck Just take out AJ Green.

Oh heck you get where I'm going with this. Take the two top receivers out of any team in the NFL and where are you at?

Am I willing to call Doug or Golden Legit #1's? I have no idea, because this is not a pass first team. But HOW they catch, WHEN they catch, the QUALITY that they provide to the team. That is just unquestioned.

You can feel good about this receiving core. If you go to the stats and put them against the number of opportunities they actually got, you are literally looking at top 10 in most areas. If you are looking at receivers with less than 50 catches, Kearse is top 5.

You can feel good about our receiving core. Don't listen to people telling you otherwise, they really haven't done the research to make that determination. (I have another post on our receivers, I just can't find it, but the stats/proof is in that post).

(Steps of Soap box)

This is the time of the week where I start getting myself pumped up about the team. So I would take this post that way. Go Hawks!

I don't know, but every play/replay I see, our receivers are quite open but Russell fails to throw it or not see them. Our recievers are probably one of the best in fighting for the ball in the air as shown by the so many incredible catches this season. They are all excellent blockers. What else can u ask a receiver than getting open, catching jumpballs, and blocking. Our recievers have earned their money this year.

I love our guys, they have heart and they fight for every ball. That alone is worth a lot. I see guys with more "talent" who don't fight for balls and their qb gets picked more often. I know there have been at least two passes this season where Tate was underthrown and he just our manned he defender to come back and get the ball. I've also seen our guys get those exact interceptions because the receivers they were up against didn't fight as hard for the ball.

With all that said, I think our receivers lack the ability to get wide open on a consistent basis, but they make up for that with sheer heart. What experts look for is the ability for a receiver to get open and our guys just aren't that good in that area.

I also think this accounts for fewer passes when we have a decent lead. No separation means ever pass has a higher risk of being picked off. IMHO this plays a large role in why we have relied on our ball control offense more with the lead. It can be very frustrating, but without a Harvin or a Rice out there, we do have an issue with WR separation.

I still believe in our guys and when it's needed, plays are made, but I can see where the experts are coming from when they look at film on these guys

I really like the Hawks' receivers, even without Percy and Rice (who TBH was my least favorite of the five who matter). As I've said before as a ball player Wilson is my favorite of the five young QBs, but it has been strange to see some Hawks fans turn on the team's WRs, because across the whole season (and even through Wilson's slump, although not as much), the frequency with which the WR corps bails him out is really remarkable. It really is a tough and gritty group, and the way they go up and fight for the ball as a whole group is really unmatched across the NFL, IMO. There's a little piece of me that feels like watching them do this week in and week out (e.g. the regularity with which they fight and come down with catches that are 50/50 propositions at best) may have spoiled Hawks fans a bit, the same way the 9ers guards have spoiled 9ers fans a bit (e.g. they don't realize that an unheralded player like Boone (and undrafted offensive tackle) being nearly automatic when pulling as a guard is something to behold).

Shock2k":qdiw02kh said:

And still came out with the 1st round bye and Home field through the playoffs. You think that was just Lynch? !

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We went 13-3 because of many reasons, one of which was AT TIMES guys like Tate, Baldwin and Kearse stepped up and had great games. But that doesn't change the fact that against VERY good defenses (like one we're playing this weekend) these three guys have struggled to get open and help Russell under pressure.

I thought Tate and Baldwin started playing their best football once Rice got hurt. It seemed like they knew that they couldn't sort of hide in the background while Rice took a bunch of heat for the lackluster WR play this year. They stepped up and played really well. But now it seems like maybe Golden and Doug are getting worn down. They just aren't creating much separation right now. Put a good CB on Tate and he is locked down all game.

I REALLY like them both as complimentary guys. They are both quality #2 or #3 WRs. But having them both as your starters is not ideal in my opinion. But they are certainly capable of digging deep and playing great football. Lets just hope they can do it twice more this season, because they are our guys right now. Rice and very likely Harvin aren't coming to save the day. Golden and Doug know its on them. They will just have to get it done.

A receiver, any receiver coming into Seattle has to know that this is not the place to pad your stats as a receiver, or as a QB for that matter. They will be asked to play within an offensive scheme that requires them to perfect a skill set that few other teams embrace. It takes a level headed, very clutch, yet team oriented person to thrive in that environment. Baldwin and Tate have both had the added pill to swallow of having been slotted behind both Rice and Harvin on the roster. These are the guys who have gotten us here, under those circumstances, and for that I give them both a tip of the cap! SF will surely be trying to smother these two Sunday. They know how capable these guys are.

Sgt. Largent":3pyc7z6y said:

Shock2k":3pyc7z6y said:

And still came out with the 1st round bye and Home field through the playoffs. You think that was just Lynch? !

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We went 13-3 because of many reasons, one of which was AT TIMES guys like Tate, Baldwin and Kearse stepped up and had great games. But that doesn't change the fact that against VERY good defenses (like one we're playing this weekend) these three guys have struggled to get open and help Russell under pressure.

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How can u say they have failed to get open? Yes, not wide - wide open, but this is the NFL with extremely talented DBs and recievers won't get a 10 yard separation. So it's the QBs job to get the ball to them sometimes in very tight windows and give the recievers chances. This is RW'S weakness. He isn't able to do that or doesn't want to take the chance. This is where he needs to develop.

Watch all the elite qbs, like payton, their recievers aren't open, but he still throws them the ball. That's what differentiates an elite from average qb.

seadoc30":1kxou2f0 said:

Sgt. Largent":1kxou2f0 said:

Shock2k":1kxou2f0 said:

And still came out with the 1st round bye and Home field through the playoffs. You think that was just Lynch? !

Click to expand...

We went 13-3 because of many reasons, one of which was AT TIMES guys like Tate, Baldwin and Kearse stepped up and had great games. But that doesn't change the fact that against VERY good defenses (like one we're playing this weekend) these three guys have struggled to get open and help Russell under pressure.

Click to expand...

How can u say they have failed to get open? Yes, not wide - wide open, but this is the NFL with extremely talented DBs and recievers won't get a 10 yard separation. So it's the QBs job to get the ball to them sometimes in very tight windows and give the recievers chances. This is RW'S weakness. He isn't able to do that or doesn't want to take the chance. This is where he needs to develop.

Watch all the elite qbs, like payton, their recievers aren't open, but he still throws them the ball. That's what differentiates an elite from average qb.

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I totally agree, a lot of it's on Russell. He doesn't have a low QBR the past month for nothing, but it's not like his receivers are helping him a whole lot either.

I've been saying this all week, my hope is Pete and Darrell let Russell come out and throw it around in order to get some rhythm going. That way he doesn't HAVE to perfect on 3rd and 7 when the entire stadium knows he has to throw it.

Lot of really great feedback here: Let me add:

There are "technically" 32 #1 Receivers in the NFL. What if I told you that Golden and Baldwin are two of the top 32 in both DYAR (consistency) and DVOA ("clutchness"). There are only 4 other teams with 2 recievers that are top 32 (NO, DEN, SD, CHI). Basically either of these guys could be #1 receivers on most teams in the NFL.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr (You have to be a believer in FO.com's methodology, which I happen to be).

Seahawks receivers are good but not great. They are excellent YAC types though. The Seahawks don't throw much. They average between 20-25 pass attempts per game. This puts a higher premium on each attempt. They don't have much room for errors (drops, inaccurate passes, etc). Rice was their go to receiver when he was healthy. They have yet to find that type now. Tate and Baldwin have had games where they getting all the passes then they disappear the next game. So they've been inconsistent. The good thing is that the Seahawks are a well balanced team and can adapt to what is working. They've won games in which they threw the ball well and they've won games in which they were not throwing the ball well too.

All I know is that the team in general, and the offense very specifically, have been hearing since last weekend and for a time prior to that about how our offense is underperforming. Or that we require Harvin to win these big playoff games that matter.

Now, the Seahawks claim they 'tune out the noise' during the week, but come on...they hear it and it filters through the clubhouse.

The result this weekend, IMO, is that the offense will come out, gnashing their teeth (ESPECIALLY so if Percy does NOT play; us against the world) and ready to play up to and over their individual potential to make a point. I think the offense comes out hungry and really wanting to prove themselves, and the defense always does + the opponent being the 9ers + at home + trip to the SB on the line = Seattle success.

Just gonna leave this here...

# / Team / Passes Dropped
1 Detroit Lions 44
2 New England Patriots 41
3 Cleveland Browns 39
4 Denver Broncos 35
5 Washington Redskins 32
6 Kansas City Chiefs 31
7 St. Louis Rams 30
8 Jacksonville Jaguars 30
9 Buffalo Bills 29
10 New York Giants 29
11 Atlanta Falcons 27
12 Chicago Bears 27
13 Cincinnati Bengals 27
14 Baltimore Ravens 27
15 Indianapolis Colts 26
16 Oakland Raiders 26
17 Pittsburgh Steelers 26
18 Dallas Cowboys 25
19 Houston Texans 24
20 Miami Dolphins 24
21 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 24
22 Tennessee Titans 23
23 Carolina Panthers 21
24 New York Jets 20
25 San Francisco 49ers 19
26 Green Bay Packers 18
27 Arizona Cardinals 18
28 Minnesota Vikings 17
29 Philadelphia Eagles 17
30 New Orleans Saints 15
31 San Diego Chargers 13
32 Seattle Seahawks 13

253hawk":3ngvbtn7 said:

Just gonna leave this here...

# / Team / Passes Dropped
1 Detroit Lions 44
2 New England Patriots 41
3 Cleveland Browns 39
4 Denver Broncos 35
5 Washington Redskins 32
6 Kansas City Chiefs 31
7 St. Louis Rams 30
8 Jacksonville Jaguars 30
9 Buffalo Bills 29
10 New York Giants 29
11 Atlanta Falcons 27
12 Chicago Bears 27
13 Cincinnati Bengals 27
14 Baltimore Ravens 27
15 Indianapolis Colts 26
16 Oakland Raiders 26
17 Pittsburgh Steelers 26
18 Dallas Cowboys 25
19 Houston Texans 24
20 Miami Dolphins 24
21 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 24
22 Tennessee Titans 23
23 Carolina Panthers 21
24 New York Jets 20
25 San Francisco 49ers 19
26 Green Bay Packers 18
27 Arizona Cardinals 18
28 Minnesota Vikings 17
29 Philadelphia Eagles 17
30 New Orleans Saints 15
31 San Diego Chargers 13
32 Seattle Seahawks 13

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Awesome stat thanks for that. (Folks will say they are passed to less, but if I dug into the number and checked percentage drops per attempt, I'm sure the Seahawks would still be near the bottom).

The positive here is that SF's secondary is its weakest part of its defense.

Shock2k":2uofxlds said:

Awesome stat thanks for that. (Folks will say they are passed to less, but if I dug into the number and checked percentage drops per attempt, I'm sure the Seahawks would still be near the bottom).

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I think they are tied for 3rd (3.2%) behind the Saints and Chargers (who have some of the most accurate QB's in the league.)

soxhawk":1g1egngp said:

The positive here is that SF's secondary is its weakest part of its defense.

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That's only a positive if our gameplan is to try and take advantage of a weaker secondary........which from listening to Pete talk about ball security, not making mistakes and trusting his defense doesn't sound like the gameplan is going to change this week.

253hawk":210uimzl said:

Just gonna leave this here...

# / Team / Passes Dropped
1 Detroit Lions 44
2 New England Patriots 41
3 Cleveland Browns 39
4 Denver Broncos 35
5 Washington Redskins 32
6 Kansas City Chiefs 31
7 St. Louis Rams 30
8 Jacksonville Jaguars 30
9 Buffalo Bills 29
10 New York Giants 29
11 Atlanta Falcons 27
12 Chicago Bears 27
13 Cincinnati Bengals 27
14 Baltimore Ravens 27
15 Indianapolis Colts 26
16 Oakland Raiders 26
17 Pittsburgh Steelers 26
18 Dallas Cowboys 25
19 Houston Texans 24
20 Miami Dolphins 24
21 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 24
22 Tennessee Titans 23
23 Carolina Panthers 21
24 New York Jets 20
25 San Francisco 49ers 19
26 Green Bay Packers 18
27 Arizona Cardinals 18
28 Minnesota Vikings 17
29 Philadelphia Eagles 17
30 New Orleans Saints 15
31 San Diego Chargers 13
32 Seattle Seahawks 13

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I wonder how many DJack and Koren had that season where we all were complaining about the dropsies.

One other issue, we have receivers that are trained to fight for the ball and generally have the ability to go up and get the ball even when the defender is on their hip.

We have had plenty of plays this year where a WR did not get separation but did get position and made the play. The problem is that you take a risk when you toss those up and I think we stopped taking those risks. (Even though I think those can effectively be punts too). The other issue is that guys like Tate really excel at that kind of football and so we take away a huge weapon from them.

I think part of the reason our wide outs were looking so much worse is that we stopped doing the things with them that have gotten us the best results because we have both played better defenses and because it was deemed riskier in important games.

Our guys were not always great at getting separation but they were good at getting position.

TwistedHusky":cf2u9t8l said:

One other issue, we have receivers that are trained to fight for the ball and generally have the ability to go up and get the ball even when the defender is on their hip.

We have had plenty of plays this year where a WR did not get separation but did get position and made the play. The problem is that you take a risk when you toss those up and I think we stopped taking those risks. (Even though I think those can effectively be punts too). The other issue is that guys like Tate really excel at that kind of football and so we take away a huge weapon from them.

I think part of the reason our wide outs were looking so much worse is that we stopped doing the things with them that have gotten us the best results because we have both played better defenses and because it was deemed riskier in important games.

Our guys were not always great at getting separation but they were good at getting position.

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Hmm, that's an interesting perspective. I would say, how many times have you seen a receiving play target getting behind the DB (basically a play where the ball falls behind the DB)?

I'm not sure if this is by design or not, but the throws are almost always with our receiver on the QB side while catching and the DB on the endzone side. So it's almost always back shoulder. It happens so often I wonder if this is just how they play it.

If it was by design it would really make it look like receivers were not getting separation, when it was actually the game plan. Though this style would also significantly reduce the possibility of getting intercepted.