Malcolm Smith should really be starting next season....

Irvin is seemingly invisible at times, and when Smith has gotten the chance he's been outstanding.

Irvins stats in 12 starts- 40 tackles, 2 sacks, 2 PD, 1 int (8 yards), 1 FF
In Smiths 8 starts-43 tackles, 1 sack, 3 PD, 2 ints (69 yards and a td, both 30+ yards), 1 FF

In Smiths starts they allowed 11.4 ppg, they went 7-1, allowed 254.9 yards per game, all better stats than our season average.

Then take their 3 playoff games where Smith had

23 tackles, 2 pd's, 2 ints (69 yards, 1 td, 1 game sealer),, 1 fumble recovery

while Irvin had... 5 tackles.... thats it.


Can we safely say the Irvin at LB experiment is over and give smith the spot? On a side note malcolm smith is 1 year 8 months YOUNGER than Irvin as well.

They'll compete for it and our excellent talent evaluators will more than likely make the correct call. If those stats prove to have any significance it will probably show up through the offseason.

Are you making a prediction?

My issue is that I rarely if ever see Irvin getting beat - it's as if defenses avoid him. Somebody with more X's and O's knowledge will probably be able to confirm that - but he started every game bar one after coming back from suspension (the Superbowl, oddly), not that starts on our defense mean anything, given, for example Cliff Avril's 2 starts in the regular season yielded 19.5 PPG against Arizona and Jacksonville of all teams, does that mean Avril shouldn't start?

And given that of Malcolm Smith's 10 starts in regular and post season, Irvin started 7 of them, it's not really a relevant comparison either, we averaged just 8.5PPG allowed in games where KJ Wright didn't start, maybe he's the weak link? That's nonsense of course, but illustrates the irrelevance of your point quite nicely

We need to have 4 good linebackers moving forward. I think some of our linebacking corp have been injured for part of the last several seasons. I like them both.

themunn":10k4zgor said:

My issue is that I rarely if ever see Irvin getting beat - it's as if defenses avoid him. Somebody with more X's and O's knowledge will probably be able to confirm that - but he started every game bar one after coming back from suspension (the Superbowl, oddly), not that starts on our defense mean anything, given, for example Cliff Avril's 2 starts in the regular season yielded 19.5 PPG against Arizona and Jacksonville of all teams, does that mean Avril shouldn't start?

And given that of Malcolm Smith's 10 starts in regular and post season, Irvin started 7 of them, it's not really a relevant comparison either, we averaged just 8.5PPG allowed in games where KJ Wright didn't start, maybe he's the weak link? That's nonsense of course, but illustrates the irrelevance of your point quite nicely

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Yeah I'm sure of our entire defense they were scheming to avoid Irvin, he's not a cornerback, he's an OLB in a 4-3, I'd also like to point out that in the superbowl he was only on the field for 24% of the snaps, compared to Smiths 49%. Against the 9ers Irvin was in 42% of the snaps, Smith was in 93%. For the saints game Smith was in 54 snaps and Irvin was in 42.

It must be tiring for his pure dominance while he's in so they rest him up while Smith just tries to avoid being embarassed.


Right?

bloodkingg":iplegwom said:

They'll compete for it and our excellent talent evaluators will more than likely make the correct call. If those stats prove to have any significance it will probably show up through the offseason.

Are you making a prediction?

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I wouldn't call it so much a prediction as an observation of irvin noticeably seeming to disappear during games, the snap count (which i hadn't looked at before making this thread) simply serves to backup my point. Hard to get beat as dude a few posts above me noted WHEN YOU AREN'T PLAYING.

So yes, I would FULLY expect the trend to continue and Smith to get more time as a penciled in starter rather than a replacement, over a guy who has not stood out whatsoever this season besides the one pick, that's literally about all I remember of Irvins impact this season.

capncrunch":18ggru31 said:

We need to have 4 good linebackers moving forward. I think some of our linebacking corp have been injured for part of the last several seasons. I like them both.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for his head, I simply think Malcolm deserves more of those snaps as the more polished player with 2 years youth on Irvin going into next season.

Ahh, you must have missed the part where I said "I'm not an X's and O's guy" and asked someone else to confirm it.

But thanks for pointing out that actually, there is no Bruce Irvin experiment, and Caroll already has Smith playing more snaps. So well done for creating an utterly pointless thread!

Unless you just want Smith to take that 1 extra snap a game so he can get his starts up? I mean, that will make all the difference given our starting defense was so awful this season, remember those whole 3 points they gave up on opening drives ALL SEASON? And that was only when Wilson fumbled in the red zone and set the Niners up in field goal range? We really need to get that starting defense sorted.

Cliff Avril started 2 games. Michael Bennett started 3. Maybe we should end the Red Bryant and Chris Clemons experiments too, because our starting defense was really outperformed by backups all year

bigcc":hk5nq4uq said:

capncrunch":hk5nq4uq said:

We need to have 4 good linebackers moving forward. I think some of our linebacking corp have been injured for part of the last several seasons. I like them both.

Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for his head, I simply think Malcolm deserves more of those snaps as the more polished player with 2 years youth on Irvin going into next season.

Click to expand...

Again, he's getting those snaps already, so all your advocating is that we don't change anything?

In what world does one extra snap equate to nearly double the snaps Irvin got in the playoffs?

What I want is the continued increase of snap count over Irvin, because Smith is younger yet has PLAYED BETTER.

You keep alluding to players at other positions which is a joke..... please enlighten me with a highlight reel of any sort of bruce irvin this season and correct the error of my ways.




EDIT: No, I want smith to get the lions share of snaps throughout the WHOLE season, not just the last few games.

The solution is to cut Clem thereby saving 2014 cap space to re-sign Michael Bennett... and move Irvin to Clem's LEO spot.

Irvin's stint at the SAM this year should have helped him with stopping the run, a weakness of his in the Atlanta playoff game last year.

I don't know what the answer is, all is know is the Kid is a playmaker, and we did not skip a beat when one of our starters went down and he stepped in, matter of fact he always showed up big time, what a great problem to have.

Just wait until he wants Superbowl MVP money, or anything even close to superbowl MVP money.

Whatever Pete does is the right thing. In Pete I Trust.

The posts that state we trust Pete and JS...I agree with those but so does every single person on the board. If that's the response to roster talk then I guess we can shut down the .NET servers.

The idea that Irvin is great because he's invisible...I was over that argument when it was used to prop Curry up. "He has an effect but you just can't see it." C'mon, man. Yes that argument applies to a shutdown corner and maybe the best free safety in the game. Applying it to players like Curry and Irvin is wishful thinking in the extreme.

I'm trying to find a hole in the OP and I can't find it. Smith has been pushing KJ to crack the top-2 in our LB core lately (though KJ was injured), that's how well he's been playing. Irvin is the 4th best linebacker on the squad and the distance between 3 and 4 is not small.

Please do not read this as a call to ditch Irvin, he may turn it on next year during camp competition, Pete and JS might find a way to use him that he excels at. But based on the performances of this year, yeah, I want Smith out there for all snaps except when he needs a breather.

@onanygivensunday, I really don't like the idea of Irvin back to LEO either. Irvin has been invisible at the POA this year, even his staunchest supporters mainly use the argument that they don't see him getting beat in coverage rather than try and claim he's a run-stopper. At linebacker Irvin can at least disappear. At LEO Irvin becomes conspicuous for being walked all over.

onanygivensunday":wlnfbqrh said:

The solution is to cut Clem thereby saving 2014 cap space to re-sign Michael Bennett... and move Irvin to Clem's LEO spot.

Irvin's stint at the SAM this year should have helped him with stopping the run, a weakness of his in the Atlanta playoff game last year.

Click to expand...

actually I think Avril becomes the Leo and Irvin is the situational pass rusher

bigcc":1nnm23z6 said:

Irvin is seemingly invisible at times, and when Smith has gotten the chance he's been outstanding.

Irvins stats in 12 starts- 40 tackles, 2 sacks, 2 PD, 1 int (8 yards), 1 FF
In Smiths 8 starts-43 tackles, 1 sack, 3 PD, 2 ints (69 yards and a td, both 30+ yards), 1 FF

In Smiths starts they allowed 11.4 ppg, they went 7-1, allowed 254.9 yards per game, all better stats than our season average.

Then take their 3 playoff games where Smith had

23 tackles, 2 pd's, 2 ints (69 yards, 1 td, 1 game sealer),, 1 fumble recovery

while Irvin had... 5 tackles.... thats it.


Can we safely say the Irvin at LB experiment is over and give smith the spot? On a side note malcolm smith is 1 year 8 months YOUNGER than Irvin as well.

Click to expand...

Are you kidding me? I can't believe the impatience I'm hearing from a lot of people. Smith has been on this team 3 years and has taken 3 years to make any significant impact on this team. Now factor in that Malcolm was in Pete's system at USC and realize he's been playing Pete's scheme for 7 years or so and it's taken that entire time for him to be an impact player.

Meanwhile Bruce just finished a solid season starting a entirely new position. IMO it's ridiculous to expect Bruce to be at Smitty's level of knowledge with just 2 years in the system and 1 in the specific position. Give the guy a chance, he's shown great promise and I expect with a good offseason for him to take a significant leap forward in his consistency and instincts at Lber.

I trust Quinn, Norton and Pete on this. No worries.

It all depends on the formation and package. Some formations, Irvin is the better pick because you don't know if he's going to be in coverage or rush the passer. In others, smith is the answer.

Doesn't matter who starts, they'll both contribute to their assignments accordingly.

bigcc":1n3wj7zr said:

themunn":1n3wj7zr said:

My issue is that I rarely if ever see Irvin getting beat - it's as if defenses avoid him. Somebody with more X's and O's knowledge will probably be able to confirm that - but he started every game bar one after coming back from suspension (the Superbowl, oddly), not that starts on our defense mean anything, given, for example Cliff Avril's 2 starts in the regular season yielded 19.5 PPG against Arizona and Jacksonville of all teams, does that mean Avril shouldn't start?

And given that of Malcolm Smith's 10 starts in regular and post season, Irvin started 7 of them, it's not really a relevant comparison either, we averaged just 8.5PPG allowed in games where KJ Wright didn't start, maybe he's the weak link? That's nonsense of course, but illustrates the irrelevance of your point quite nicely

Click to expand...

Yeah I'm sure of our entire defense they were scheming to avoid Irvin, he's not a cornerback, he's an OLB in a 4-3, I'd also like to point out that in the superbowl he was only on the field for 24% of the snaps, compared to Smiths 49%. Against the 9ers Irvin was in 42% of the snaps, Smith was in 93%. For the saints game Smith was in 54 snaps and Irvin was in 42.

It must be tiring for his pure dominance while he's in so they rest him up while Smith just tries to avoid being embarassed.


Right?

Click to expand...

Impartial observer here as I am sure we keep and use both quite a bit as we need all of them and our staff will figure best combos. But, by your own numbers there, it appears Smith had twice as many opportunities to make plays during his 8 games as Irvin so really those stat lines are probably much closer than they really appear. Just saying. Carry on.

hawk45":ia00xu1s said:

Please do not read this as a call to ditch Irvin, he may turn it on next year during camp competition, Pete and JS might find a way to use him that he excels at. But based on the performances of this year, yeah, I want Smith out there for all snaps except when he needs a breather.]

Click to expand...

That's what I'm saying, I'm not calling Irvin a bust or to cut him or anything like that, I just think Smith is the better LB.