Irvin on the edge of bust

Mick063

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You gotta ask yourself.

After two seasons, is he playing like a first round pick? Is he disciplined? When was the last time he made a memorable, impactful play? I'm talking about a positive play, not a memorable, impactful play that gives the opponent a first down during a third down stop.

Personally, I think he is out when his contract is up.
 

RiverDog

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Mick063":13d6fjzd said:
You gotta ask yourself.

After two seasons, is he playing like a first round pick? Is he disciplined? When was the last time he made a memorable, impactful play? I'm talking about a positive play, not a memorable, impactful play that gives the opponent a first down during a third down stop.

Personally, I think he is out when his contract is up.

The last impactful play he made was the interception in the Rams game in October of last season when he made a spectacular diving catch while in perfect coverage. But that's been it. He literally disappeared in the playoffs, got less than 20 snaps in the SB. Last season, he missed the first 4 games for PED's. This year, he's coming off hip surgery. Unless he has an immediate turnaround, we're not picking up his option at the end of the season, but I suspect he'll still make the club. It's pretty hard to throw in the towel on a #15 overall, even on a team that is as deep as we are.

I was equally disappointed in James Carpenter's performance at the same point in his career, and he seems to have turned things around, made me eat my words. But Carpenter's problems were mostly physical and easier to correct by getting his fat butt in shape. Irvin's problem isn't something that can be corrected in Gold's Gym like Carp's was. He isn't a good run stopper (was that little Danny Woodhead that Irvin bounced off of?), and his pass rushing skills are still very vanilla. He seems to get decent pressure and can usually force the QB off his spot, but he gets locked up with a lineman and can't spin or swim to get out of it. He's still a raw, unrefined talent.

I've been waiting 3 years to see him progress into the pass rushing terror we were promised when we drafted him. He had 6 sacks in the first half of his rookie season and hasn't shown any improvement since. In the meantime, we've heard every excuse in the book that attempts to rationalize his meager contributions.
 

themunn

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Every time I saw Rivers under pressure last night I saw Irvin's number.

Until the moronic push I thought he'd been playing very well.

The annoying thing about that push is that I remember him doing the exact same thing to RGIII on 3rd down in the playoffs. "Fortunately" the pass was completed for a TD, so the effect of the penalty was that the Redskins kickoff went straight into the endzone and we started from our own 20.

Had the pass fallen incomplete or been intercepted though it would have given the redskins a fresh set of downs from our 2 yard line. I'd have thought he'd have been called out for it then and made sure never to make the same stupid mistake twice.
 

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themunn":200w2dse said:
Every time I saw Rivers under pressure last night I saw Irvin's number.

Until the moronic push I thought he'd been playing very well.

The annoying thing about that push is that I remember him doing the exact same thing to RGIII on 3rd down in the playoffs. "Fortunately" the pass was completed for a TD, so the effect of the penalty was that the Redskins kickoff went straight into the endzone and we started from our own 20.

Had the pass fallen incomplete or been intercepted though it would have given the redskins a fresh set of downs from our 2 yard line. I'd have thought he'd have been called out for it then and made sure never to make the same stupid mistake twice.

He gets good pressure and did a decent job of getting Rivers to move or hurry his throw, but he just can't release and make a tackle. Aaron Curry used to get good pressure, too, was great at collapsing the pocket, but could never seal the deal and get himself into position to make a play.

Bottom line is that he is not playing up to the expectations of a #15 overall. He's simply another number in our rotation, nothing special, easily overshadowed on a team that is as deep as we are.
 
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Those of us watching on TV saw the replay of Irvin chasing Rivers toward the sideline and gaining ground on him. I paid especially close attention to his eyes in pursuit, and noticed his gaze was fixed very high on Rivers body, and it appeared to this observer that BI lost proximity of the boundary in favor of "I'm gonna touch him before he...".

Not defending his "choice" in any way, but the thought did occur to me that Bruce's subconscious instincts drove him more than his conscious decisions at that moment, and the mental decision to get to the prize rendered his ability to process his surroundings and avoid a penalty null and void.

We have all seen how a defender who has the ability of complete awareness will act after the play stops, as he will throw up his hands in a "I didn't touch him" way in the direction of the official. After that play, Bruce didn't do any of that, he just trotted back across the field. This is telling.

Not sure if it is tackle-stats or starring in a highlight that clouded his mind right then, but if the player can't keep all the input factors working smoothly and in concert with each other, and can display the visual characteristics of player that does, things like this will continue to occur.
 

RiverDog

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HoustonHawk82":35i60z4r said:
Those of us watching on TV saw the replay of Irvin chasing Rivers toward the sideline and gaining ground on him. I paid especially close attention to his eyes in pursuit, and noticed his gaze was fixed very high on Rivers body, and it appeared to this observer that BI lost proximity of the boundary in favor of "I'm gonna touch him before he...".

Not defending his "choice" in any way, but the thought did occur to me that Bruce's subconscious instincts drove him more than his conscious decisions at that moment, and the mental decision to get to the prize rendered his ability to process his surroundings and avoid a penalty null and void.

We have all seen how a defender who has the ability of complete awareness will act after the play stops, as he will throw up his hands in a "I didn't touch him" way in the direction of the official. After that play, Bruce didn't do any of that, he just trotted back across the field. This is telling.

Not sure if it is tackle-stats or starring in a highlight that clouded his mind right then, but if the player can't keep all the input factors working smoothly and in concert with each other, and can display the visual characteristics of player that does, things like this will continue to occur.

Good analysis, and I'll add another: He didn't realize that he was chasing a quarterback and/or that the refs will protect quarterbacks from late hits, especially after Wagner didn't get called earlier in the game for a similar push and of which Rivers gave an earful to the ref. At that point, all Irvin would have had to do was to blow on Rivers and he would have drawn a flag.

All that information has to be processed in a nano second, and like you said, I don't think Irvin has that kind of football smarts.
 

SoCalSeahawk

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Shouldn't the bust go to Schneider/Carroll for drafting a second round talent in the first round? Irvin is ok. A player doesn't all of a sudden become more talented because the front office deems him to be worthy of pick #15.
 

hawksfansinceday1

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SoCalSeahawk":1j4trk14 said:
Shouldn't the bust go to Schneider/Carroll for drafting a second round talent in the first round? Irvin is ok. A player doesn't all of a sudden become more talented because the front office deems him to be worthy of pick #15.
Good post and yeah, it is on John and Pete. He's a good player but not worthy of a 1st rounder IMO.........at least at this point. His run D has never been good and though he does at times get pressures, it rarely results in a sack. "Edge of bust"? Considering he was the 15th overall selection, yes. There is still time for him to justify his high selection, but it's running out, rapidly.
 

dontbelikethat

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Maybe not worth the #15th overall pick, especially with hindsight, but he's definitely not a bad player.
 
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dontbelikethat":10afz7x2 said:
Maybe not worth the #15th overall pick, especially with hindsight, but he's definitely not a bad player.

Agree, but his "quick-thinking-ness" is not quite there.

The question really is: Do we rely on Bruce enough to legislate change to his mentality and devote time continuing to mold him to justify is high selection, or do we capitalize on his strengths and hope he doesn't screw up until a better plan squeezes him out?

IMHO, I'm not convinced his pros and cons list is tipped in the direction of continuing to invest.
 

Ozzy

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Zero excuse for hitting Rivers 5 yards out of bounds during a crucial third down at that point in the game. LIterally one of the most baffling mistakes I can remember with this team.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Other than his rookie year, this guy has done NOTHING in the NFL. And he sure likes to open his pie hole a lot. Cut him, and I wouldn't care one bit.
 

Jacknut16

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dontbelikethat":27qb3o35 said:
Maybe not worth the #15th overall pick, especially with hindsight, but he's definitely not a bad player.

A Pass rush specialist who had 2 sacks last year and can never beat his man one on one?

I would have, and Im serious, cut his ass yesterday if we had anyone else to go to. That play cost us significant time, and made the defense stay on the field in the most lopsided TOP game I have watched in a long time. It would have been 23-21 with the Hawks getting the ball in the 4th instead of 27-21, with more time remaining.

The guy is very near bust status, and to pull that stuff out of bounds, at that point in a road game.... WOW, just WOW.
 

ZagHawk

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RiverDog":9fwqsthy said:
Mick063":9fwqsthy said:
You gotta ask yourself.

After two seasons, is he playing like a first round pick? Is he disciplined? When was the last time he made a memorable, impactful play? I'm talking about a positive play, not a memorable, impactful play that gives the opponent a first down during a third down stop.

Personally, I think he is out when his contract is up.

The last impactful play he made was the interception in the Rams game in October of last season when he made a spectacular diving catch while in perfect coverage. But that's been it. He literally disappeared in the playoffs, got less than 20 snaps in the SB. Last season, he missed the first 4 games for PED's. This year, he's coming off hip surgery. Unless he has an immediate turnaround, we're not picking up his option at the end of the season, but I suspect he'll still make the club. It's pretty hard to throw in the towel on a #15 overall, even on a team that is as deep as we are.

I was equally disappointed in James Carpenter's performance at the same point in his career, and he seems to have turned things around, made me eat my words. But Carpenter's problems were mostly physical and easier to correct by getting his fat butt in shape. Irvin's problem isn't something that can be corrected in Gold's Gym like Carp's was. He isn't a good run stopper (was that little Danny Woodhead that Irvin bounced off of?), and his pass rushing skills are still very vanilla. He seems to get decent pressure and can usually force the QB off his spot, but he gets locked up with a lineman and can't spin or swim to get out of it. He's still a raw, unrefined talent.

I've been waiting 3 years to see him progress into the pass rushing terror we were promised when we drafted him. He had 6 sacks in the first half of his rookie season and hasn't shown any improvement since. In the meantime, we've heard every excuse in the book that attempts to rationalize his meager contributions.

Not to mention 4/6 sacks came out of one game. Where as impressive as that one game is, you're almost better off with 1 sack for six games, then 4 in 1 and 2 in the next 4.
 

ZagHawk

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You know Rivers was talking smack to the LOB all game. LOB talks tons of smack, but they usually let the other team make the mental mistakes.
 

hawkfan68

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Jacknut16":25xeyoq5 said:
dontbelikethat":25xeyoq5 said:
Maybe not worth the #15th overall pick, especially with hindsight, but he's definitely not a bad player.

A Pass rush specialist who had 2 sacks last year and can never beat his man one on one?

I would have, and Im serious, cut his ass yesterday if we had anyone else to go to. That play cost us significant time, and made the defense stay on the field in the most lopsided TOP game I have watched in a long time. It would have been 23-21 with the Hawks getting the ball in the 4th instead of 27-21, with more time remaining.

The guy is very near bust status, and to pull that stuff out of bounds, at that point in a road game.... WOW, just WOW.

Wow....


1) He was not used as a pass rush specialist last year. They switched him to a LB and wasn't called on to pass rush as often.

2) He had 8 sacks in 2011, his rookie year, as a pass rush specialist.

Irvin will be fine he's still learning. He wasn't the reason they lost. To pin it on him is being narrow-minded.
 

Bob Loblaw

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He is slowly rounding into bust form. Certainly hasnt done what expected and mix in that he cant stay on the field. He is starting to remind me of our Manny Lawson. Manny was supposed to be a sack artist for us. He never turned out to be that but the difference is that Manny was great in the run and covered pretty well. Irvin hasnt shown that he does any one thing particularly well.

If you pose this question you must also start posing the question is Christine Michael starting to reach LaMichael James status. 2nd year and practically doesnt exist. Lots of hype but where is the production. He has another season I guess, but the whispers are out
 

Ozzy

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I don't care if it was his first game of the season. You can't make that penalty at that point in the game. He should of had another one called on him earlier in the game. I'm not hammering him for his play on the field, I'm killing him for the mental mistake and it was a huge one.
 
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