Knocking receivers out of bounds

Aristotle22

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Ok pass plays near the sidelines seems like something that could be coached more. It seems to me that defenders are frequently trying to knock the ball loose with shoulders when they could maybe aim at the hips and knock their feet out of bounds(this only applies if they have to jump for the ball)
 

SalishHawkFan

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I've thought the same thing. Take that 2 pt. conversion vs Denver. Sherman played it perfectly except for one part: when he hit Thomas to drive him out of bounds, if he'd hit him a little lower, say in the gut, it would have bent Thomas, not driven him and possibly lifted his feet so he didn't get two feet down.
 

kobebryant

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Aristotle22":32ou7imp said:
Ok pass plays near the sidelines seems like something that could be coached more. It seems to me that defenders are frequently trying to knock the ball loose with shoulders when they could maybe aim at the hips and knock their feet out of bounds(this only applies if they have to jump for the ball)
.

My guess would be that it is a timing/risk thing.

If you miss-time knocking a guy out of bounds it could be: too early and an obvious PI; or: too late and you've missed your chance to compete for, swat at, and rake the ball or go for the interception.

A too early swat or rake, while at times does result in a PI, doesn't get flagged at the rate that a borderline early knock out of bounds would. Too late with the knock out of bounds, and you've largely allowed the reception to go uncontested.

I believe that the long held ideology of wanting dbs to play the ball is a very good one. In terms of the Broncos game, just great body control by an excellent and massive WR.
 

Rickomatic

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From NFL.com

A forward pass is complete when a receiver clearly possesses the pass and touches the ground with both feet inbounds while in possession of the ball. If a receiver would have landed inbounds with both feet but is carried or pushed out of bounds while maintaining possession of the ball, pass is complete at the out-of-bounds spot.


I think this is a recent rule change.
 

kidhawk

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Rickomatic":3edpynby said:
From NFL.com

A forward pass is complete when a receiver clearly possesses the pass and touches the ground with both feet inbounds while in possession of the ball. If a receiver would have landed inbounds with both feet but is carried or pushed out of bounds while maintaining possession of the ball, pass is complete at the out-of-bounds spot.


I think this is a recent rule change.


This is a rule change but what you are quoting is the old rule from a few seasons ago. The latest rule is if you get pushed out its not a catch.
 

dusktreader

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At some point you have to give Peyton and Thomas some credit for just making a great play. Sherman's coverage was good, but that pass was perfect.
 

ivotuk

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SalishHawkFan":3kycjqu3 said:
I've thought the same thing. Take that 2 pt. conversion vs Denver. Sherman played it perfectly except for one part: when he hit Thomas to drive him out of bounds, if he'd hit him a little lower, say in the gut, it would have bent Thomas, not driven him and possibly lifted his feet so he didn't get two feet down.

Richard screwed up on that play. He hesitated, then wrapped Demaryius up when he should have hit him. All wrapping him up did was help him stay in bounds. I replayed that several times, and then you see the after game interview with Sherman and he's unhappy, mentioning mistakes and letting the offense down. I think he's talking about that play, along with the 2 blow coverages.
 

HawkFan72

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The force-out rule is no more. You can knock a receiver out of bounds and if they don't get their feet down, it is not a catch.
 

MizzouHawkGal

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ivotuk":3nii81jx said:
SalishHawkFan":3nii81jx said:
I've thought the same thing. Take that 2 pt. conversion vs Denver. Sherman played it perfectly except for one part: when he hit Thomas to drive him out of bounds, if he'd hit him a little lower, say in the gut, it would have bent Thomas, not driven him and possibly lifted his feet so he didn't get two feet down.

Richard screwed up on that play. He hesitated, then wrapped Demaryius up when he should have hit him. All wrapping him up did was help him stay in bounds. I replayed that several times, and then you see the after game interview with Sherman and he's unhappy, mentioning mistakes and letting the offense down. I think he's talking about that play, along with the 2 blow coverages.
I prefer to give credit for an amazing catch because the only choice Sherman had was to force him out of bounds and well DT is a large human....
 

HawkFan72

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MizzouHawkGal":1rwy0jgp said:
ivotuk":1rwy0jgp said:
SalishHawkFan":1rwy0jgp said:
I've thought the same thing. Take that 2 pt. conversion vs Denver. Sherman played it perfectly except for one part: when he hit Thomas to drive him out of bounds, if he'd hit him a little lower, say in the gut, it would have bent Thomas, not driven him and possibly lifted his feet so he didn't get two feet down.

Richard screwed up on that play. He hesitated, then wrapped Demaryius up when he should have hit him. All wrapping him up did was help him stay in bounds. I replayed that several times, and then you see the after game interview with Sherman and he's unhappy, mentioning mistakes and letting the offense down. I think he's talking about that play, along with the 2 blow coverages.
I prefer to give credit for an amazing catch because the only choice Sherman had was to force him out of bounds and well DT is a large human....

It really was a great catch.

The thing that really bugs me about that play though is the illegal pick by Welker. He ran straight at Kam and took him out of the play. If Welker doesn't do that illegal pick, Kam is going to be standing right in the throwing lane of that pass.

I credit Thomas with a great catch and great awareness to get his feet down. Can't blame Sherman for that, he did all he could do.

But the other part of that play really still bugs me.
 

hangumhi

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Aristotle22":d6expwtw said:
Ok pass plays near the sidelines seems like something that could be coached more. It seems to me that defenders are frequently trying to knock the ball loose with shoulders when they could maybe aim at the hips and knock their feet out of bounds(this only applies if they have to jump for the ball)

I really like this thread. As a former high school football coach myself I'm always thinking of new methods of coaching and this to me is one I would really be honing in on if I were coaching in the NFL. You hit the nail on the head when you suggested the coaching issue...it really is just a matter of coaching the cover guys to think differently on the sideline. I believe this slight adjustment would result in 3-5 incomplete passes per game on average (total guess but hey) that would normally be catches. Just think about how many catches we see where the receiver barely gets toes down in bounds. Targeting the hips and lifting the hips/torso with the hands while pushing at the right time would be an excellent idea. I would coach to take this approach on all sideline passes where the cover guy is OBVIOUSLY not in a place to make a play on the ball.

I love your picture by the way too...best actor of all times in my opinion. Long live the legacy of Don Knotts.
 

Sarlacc83

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I like the assumption that coaches in the NFL don't teach their players this rule. Someone should probably send them a link to this thread to make sure.

Less sarcastically, let me explain the major flaw in this thread: There is no concept, whatsoever, of the physics or awareness of the cornerbacks and safeties doing so. As if not being taught is not the problem instead of the fact that it's extremely difficult to change the inertia of 200-250 lb body or the reality some CBs will be better at pushing a receiver out of bounds by by knowing where the marker is. Not to mention closing speed. There's a huge element of 'luck' in pushing a receiver out of bounds as well, given that they need to be close enough for the impact force to move them - which is easiest when the receiver is already in the air and headed towards the line. A 'stationary' target (a player jumping straight up in the air), or one moving away from the sideline, require a lot more force to change inertia. A little physics application would go a long way in this thread.

Furthermore, anyone who thinks Sherman just didn't know the rule, that he could have just shoved Demaryius Thomas put of bounds (not to mention the fact that if Sherman hit his legs, he would have toppled him forward rather than gone backwards (again, physics, especially torque)) is being unrealistic. Unless you think Sherm is going to catch a 230 pound human being, which you shouldn't, then maybe it's time to give due credence to the fact these are professional players with all the ability that implies. People should act like this is case.
 

ivotuk

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Sarlacc83":2wyvuikp said:
I like the assumption that coaches in the NFL don't teach their players this rule. Someone should probably send them a link to this thread to make sure.

Less sarcastically, let me explain the major flaw in this thread: There is no concept, whatsoever, of the physics or awareness of the cornerbacks and safeties doing so. As if not being taught is not the problem instead of the fact that it's extremely difficult to change the inertia of 200-250 lb body or the reality some CBs will be better at pushing a receiver out of bounds by by knowing where the marker is. Not to mention closing speed. There's a huge element of 'luck' in pushing a receiver out of bounds as well, given that they need to be close enough for the impact force to move them - which is easiest when the receiver is already in the air and headed towards the line. A 'stationary' target (a player jumping straight up in the air), or one moving away from the sideline, require a lot more force to change inertia. A little physics application would go a long way in this thread.

Furthermore, anyone who thinks Sherman just didn't know the rule, that he could have just shoved Demaryius Thomas put of bounds (not to mention the fact that if Sherman hit his legs, he would have toppled him forward rather than gone backwards (again, physics, especially torque)) is being unrealistic. Unless you think Sherm is going to catch a 230 pound human being, which you shouldn't, then maybe it's time to give due credence to the fact these are professional players with all the ability that implies. People should act like this is case.

So you're saying that our DB s are incapable of changing the momentum of a wide receiver?

If you play that back a couple off times you can see Sherman's hesitation. And in his interview he was upset that the Broncos were able to tie the game up. "We let the offense down" That tells me that he was unhappy that he didn't prevent the game tying 2 point conversion.

Why he hesitated, then wrapped up DT seems strange, it's not like he's worried about stopping forward progress.
 

Sarlacc83

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ivotuk":3sssl5kd said:
Sarlacc83":3sssl5kd said:
I like the assumption that coaches in the NFL don't teach their players this rule. Someone should probably send them a link to this thread to make sure.

Less sarcastically, let me explain the major flaw in this thread: There is no concept, whatsoever, of the physics or awareness of the cornerbacks and safeties doing so. As if not being taught is not the problem instead of the fact that it's extremely difficult to change the inertia of 200-250 lb body or the reality some CBs will be better at pushing a receiver out of bounds by by knowing where the marker is. Not to mention closing speed. There's a huge element of 'luck' in pushing a receiver out of bounds as well, given that they need to be close enough for the impact force to move them - which is easiest when the receiver is already in the air and headed towards the line. A 'stationary' target (a player jumping straight up in the air), or one moving away from the sideline, require a lot more force to change inertia. A little physics application would go a long way in this thread.

Furthermore, anyone who thinks Sherman just didn't know the rule, that he could have just shoved Demaryius Thomas put of bounds (not to mention the fact that if Sherman hit his legs, he would have toppled him forward rather than gone backwards (again, physics, especially torque)) is being unrealistic. Unless you think Sherm is going to catch a 230 pound human being, which you shouldn't, then maybe it's time to give due credence to the fact these are professional players with all the ability that implies. People should act like this is case.

So you're saying that our DB s are incapable of changing the momentum of a wide receiver?

If you play that back a couple off times you can see Sherman's hesitation. And in his interview he was upset that the Broncos were able to tie the game up. "We let the offense down" That tells me that he was unhappy that he didn't prevent the game tying 2 point conversion.

Why he hesitated, then wrapped up DT seems strange, it's not like he's worried about stopping forward progress.


You completely missed the point in all phases of my post. Most importantly that I'm saying it can be done, but it's far harder than people have given credence to in this thread for a couple reasons. As th though it's purely a matter of education.

Sherman is a big guy but he gives up 35 pounds to Thomas and that matters when it comes to acceleration (I misused inertia above) because of the energy necessary to cause a change in direction. F=ma (Sherman) must be >> than F=ma (Thomas) where the conditions listed above are in effect to change the course of the receiver by yard or 2.

And of course Sherman was unhappy about giving up the tie. That doesn't equate at all to his needing to know he can push the receiver out of bounds. Not sacking Manning or getting help on Thomas mattered too, and that's a 'failure' of the entire D.
 

chris98251

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Yeah Sherm needs to pack one of these around on the field so he can figure this stuff out, after all he did go to Stanford. :)



Versa2
 

Sarlacc83

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chris98251":1tjci93a said:
Yeah Sherm needs to pack one of these around on the field so he can figure this stuff out, after all he did go to Stanford. :)



Versa2

He went to Stanford, you say? That means he should be able to do the math in his head. ;)
 

ivotuk

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From my viewpoint it looked like he hesitated and wrapped up instead of trying to push the receiver out. I never said that he could or could not push the receiver out, I was referring purely to technique.

Now this is just my opinion, for what little it's worth, but watching the games I see players go for the push out, and not wrapping up when it's on the boundary. Sometimes they succeed and the catch is incomplete, and sometimes they don't but it would be the best approach I would think. Just seems to me if Sherman was talking about making a mistake, that may be what he is talking about.

But I sure don't know what Sherman's intentions were or whether he was blaming his self for the final completion. I'm just talking about what I saw after rewinding the play several times.
 
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