How much of the Percy blunder is Bevell's fault

seabowl

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I know all of us hate that it came to this and wished Percy would have worked out for us. With this said how much blame do you put on Bevell for Perc's failure? Not only from a standpoint of getting him correctly involved in the offensive scheme but also his involvement with even wanting to acquire Percy in the first place. Remember Bevell was Percy's OC in Minnesota and was completely informed of his on the field/off the field issues. Thoughts?
 

endzorn

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I think people really want to hate Bevell because everyone thinks they can draw up magical plays with someone of Percy's talent and score touchdown after touchdown. Seattle did their homework and thought it could work. Feels like Percy wanted to be center stage on a team that prides itself on playing a role. Add to it that there are reports rolling in saying he was a complete POS and you can see why JS lured him into a catapult and launched his ass to NY.

I'm guessing here, but I bet there was a huge sigh of relief from a lot of Seahawks yesterday.
 

brimsalabim

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I don't blame the office for trying and it's tuff to blame Bevel if it's true that Percy refused to go in and didn't know the offense. I also applaud the office for realizing their mistake and moving on. I just wish we could have used him to adress at least one of our immediate needs.
 
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seabowl

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endzorn":2k463y6d said:
I think people really want to hate Bevell because everyone thinks they can draw up magical plays with someone of Percy's talent and score touchdown after touchdown. Seattle did their homework and thought it could work. Feels like Percy wanted to be center stage on a team that prides itself on playing a role. Add to it that there are reports rolling in saying he was a complete POS and you can see why JS lured him into a catapult and launched his ass to NY.

I'm guessing here, but I bet there was a huge sigh of relief from a lot of Seahawks yesterday.

I hear you but from what I have read Percy was a POS prior to coming to Seattle. I'm curious how much Bevell knew (and letting the FO know) of this before making the deal and weighing the pros and cons of such a player.
 

-The Glove-

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I put a lot of blame on Bevell, Rice and TJack...but especially Bevell as he was his OC there. If all of the reports about Harvin are true, he should've known it wouldn't work out. It's like trying to date a crazy hot ex a couple years down the road thinking it would turn out differently
 

endzorn

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Still comes down to Carroll and Schneider believing they can make him fit. There was too much stench for one man to come in and say that shit pile actually smells like flowers.
 

ceej22

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-The Glove-":3w2r218g said:
I put a lot of blame on Bevell, Rice and TJack...but especially Bevell as he was his OC there. If all of the reports about Harvin are true, he should've known it wouldn't work out. It's like trying to date a crazy hot ex a couple years down the road thinking it would turn out differently

Everyone knew about his issues. Bevell didn't have to hide anything.
 

hawk45

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Pete and JS pulled the trigger but it sure would seem bevell was in the best position of nearly anyone in the league save Leslie Frazier to have seen this coming so some of this gets on bevell IMO.
Between all of them it sounds like they threw a grenade in the locker room in terms of chemistry. Fistfights, factions, now lynch getting pissy again reportedly...hope Pete learned his lesson here.
 

-The Glove-

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ceej22":1i72s07v said:
-The Glove-":1i72s07v said:
I put a lot of blame on Bevell, Rice and TJack...but especially Bevell as he was his OC there. If all of the reports about Harvin are true, he should've known it wouldn't work out. It's like trying to date a crazy hot ex a couple years down the road thinking it would turn out differently

Everyone knew about his issues. Bevell didn't have to hide anything.
Here's Bevell's comments in March 2013,

There were different times I was asked, by both Pete and (general manager) John (Schneider)," Bevell said. "My reply was the same: It's easy to see what he can do on the field, and off the field, I never had one issue with him. We had a good relationship, an open line of communication; we could always talk. There were no run-ins. Percy's just a very competitive guy who wants to win and wants you to show him how he can help you win.

"I don't think he's selfish. He never asked for the ball -- it was just however he fit in. Our relationship was always fine."
 

keasley45

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seabowl":1klvvtqs said:
I know all of us hate that it came to this and wished Percy would have worked out for us. With this said how much blame do you put on Bevell for Perc's failure? Not only from a standpoint of getting him correctly involved in the offensive scheme but also his involvement with even wanting to acquire Percy in the first place. Remember Bevell was Percy's OC in Minnesota and was completely informed of his on the field/off the field issues. Thoughts?

i think its all a bit more nuanced than people want to see. I don't think its any one person's fault but have a feeling by the end of the year, we'll know at who's feet the blame should lie. If you look at each of the conditions individually, it's easy to see how we got to where we are

1 - a player who although he did have a rep as a hot head, had teammates come out and say that its born out of a desire to compete and for everyone around him to have that same passion and commitment ... to be excellent. Doesn't excuse him calling out his former coaches publicly, but what are either of them doing now? He was openly critical of both for not being good enough. wrong for doing it, but at the end of the day... neither frazier nor childress are coaching a team.

2 - a coach who has built a team in HIS own image and will defend that image and those key components of his approach that threaten its integrity. I personally think that this offense would be better off with someone else running it. Its not about drawing up 'magic plays' for a superstar, its about creativity, judgement, adjustment, maximizing the best of the players you have and exposing an enemy's weeknesses. Bev doesnt do that. But until this year, it hasnt mattered because the Hawk's philosophy has been to do what they do and dictate the game to their opponent. well now, they no longer have the benefit of a defense that can cover their O's mistakes and set them up in scoring position time and time again. But Pete has what he has. He's built it, orchestrated the acquiring of Bevell because i'm sure he figured he'd work within the system he wanted. remember the OC we had prior who on the surface didnt look too bad but was canned the second the season ended? he wasnt doing what PC wanted. bevell does. But without the D to support the ultra conservative approach and in my opinion, a very limited OC, the cracks are showing and the players see it and are beginning to show their frustration. But Pete cant let open criticism of his coach exist and thus, his philosophy exist.

3 - an OC that is limited and has been protected by his HC's desire for a simple approach and a QB who can turn his ineffective plays that dont help a bit to creatively free up WR . When he's most effective, he's doing what PETE wants him to do, which is run run run, set up the pass with the run and then hit the big play. When he's strayed from that or been given the freedom to push beyond that limitation of a few 'select' plays, you get a lot of WTF schemes and questionable calls. I think its BS that there's all this talk about how we just couldnt make Percy fit. You make him fit by stretching the field with him several times a game. BUT, Pete's in a pickle because he put Bevell in the spot he's in. he's Pete's puppet, in the past, running the plays he wanted and calling a game 'not to lose'. Now, when the O needs to do more, i think we're REALLY starting to see Bev's limitations (hopefully Pete is a s well).

So you end up with a situation where you have an offense sputtering because its being asked to do something its O coordinator cant do, a head coach who has to now stuck with his coordinator because he cant let him go 5 games in the season and up until now has been ok because he was never relied upon to win, and a dynamic player who's personality is to call a spade a spade, regardless of whether a player or coach. They had a star player who looked at the situation around him and probably spoke his mind. Problem is, and i'm not condoning the douchiness with which PH has hsitorically leveled his criticism, i cant disagree if what he was most troubled by and vocal about was piss poor planning, questionable offensive leadership, and a gameplan that literally wastes the talents of its players. But regardless, you cant let that type of dissension exist.

My gutt says this situation is not going to get better with PH's departure. I dont get the sense that the players are happy about it and slapping high fives because the guy was an ass. The responses so far have been more along the lines of regret. that alone should tell you that if he was complaining about how things are done, he was being used or a game is being called, that some must see the same thing. some might include ADB who has been vocal about the O's ineptitude and Lynch.

So we'll see over the next two months how the team responds. IF Pete can get bev to put together a string of solid games then he'll get buy in again. if not, i think things are going to boil over rather quickly because it will mean that the team let go its most talented (albeit hot-headed) player because he was being honest in his criticism of its leadership.

we shall see.
 

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When we win games, Bevell gets praised a lot. When we lose, people start "Fire Bevell" chants.
 

hawk45

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dumbrabbit":1gadxm0c said:
When we win games, Bevell gets praised a lot. When we lose, people start "Fire Bevell" chants.

And folks who criticize Bevell after both wins and losses get labeled as irrational Bevell haters because OMG we won the game after all.

Nice to set up a way to target fans either way I guess.
 

dumbrabbit

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hawk45":2hwvnipv said:
dumbrabbit":2hwvnipv said:
When we win games, Bevell gets praised a lot. When we lose, people start "Fire Bevell" chants.

And folks who criticize Bevell after both wins and losses get labeled as irrational Bevell haters because OMG we won the game after all.

Nice to set up a way to target fans either way I guess.

Was I talking about everyone? No, I didn't think so, but you can't deny the hatred on this board and other boards that Bevell gets when we lose.
 

hawksfansinceday1

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keasley45":2qxaylnj said:
seabowl":2qxaylnj said:
I know all of us hate that it came to this and wished Percy would have worked out for us. With this said how much blame do you put on Bevell for Perc's failure? Not only from a standpoint of getting him correctly involved in the offensive scheme but also his involvement with even wanting to acquire Percy in the first place. Remember Bevell was Percy's OC in Minnesota and was completely informed of his on the field/off the field issues. Thoughts?

i think its all a bit more nuanced than people want to see. I don't think its any one person's fault but have a feeling by the end of the year, we'll know at who's feet the blame should lie. If you look at each of the conditions individually, it's easy to see how we got to where we are

1 - a player who although he did have a rep as a hot head, had teammates come out and say that its born out of a desire to compete and for everyone around him to have that same passion and commitment ... to be excellent. Doesn't excuse him calling out his former coaches publicly, but what are either of them doing now? He was openly critical of both for not being good enough. wrong for doing it, but at the end of the day... neither frazier nor childress are coaching a team.

2 - a coach who has built a team in HIS own image and will defend that image and those key components of his approach that threaten its integrity. I personally think that this offense would be better off with someone else running it. Its not about drawing up 'magic plays' for a superstar, its about creativity, judgement, adjustment, maximizing the best of the players you have and exposing an enemy's weeknesses. Bev doesnt do that. But until this year, it hasnt mattered because the Hawk's philosophy has been to do what they do and dictate the game to their opponent. well now, they no longer have the benefit of a defense that can cover their O's mistakes and set them up in scoring position time and time again. But Pete has what he has. He's built it, orchestrated the acquiring of Bevell because i'm sure he figured he'd work within the system he wanted. remember the OC we had prior who on the surface didnt look too bad but was canned the second the season ended? he wasnt doing what PC wanted. bevell does. But without the D to support the ultra conservative approach and in my opinion, a very limited OC, the cracks are showing and the players see it and are beginning to show their frustration. But Pete cant let open criticism of his coach exist and thus, his philosophy exist.

3 - an OC that is limited and has been protected by his HC's desire for a simple approach and a QB who can turn his ineffective plays that dont help a bit to creatively free up WR . When he's most effective, he's doing what PETE wants him to do, which is run run run, set up the pass with the run and then hit the big play. When he's strayed from that or been given the freedom to push beyond that limitation of a few 'select' plays, you get a lot of WTF schemes and questionable calls. I think its BS that there's all this talk about how we just couldnt make Percy fit. You make him fit by stretching the field with him several times a game. BUT, Pete's in a pickle because he put Bevell in the spot he's in. he's Pete's puppet, in the past, running the plays he wanted and calling a game 'not to lose'. Now, when the O needs to do more, i think we're REALLY starting to see Bev's limitations (hopefully Pete is a s well).

So you end up with a situation where you have an offense sputtering because its being asked to do something its O coordinator cant do, a head coach who has to now stuck with his coordinator because he cant let him go 5 games in the season and up until now has been ok because he was never relied upon to win, and a dynamic player who's personality is to call a spade a spade, regardless of whether a player or coach. They had a star player who looked at the situation around him and probably spoke his mind. Problem is, and i'm not condoning the douchiness with which PH has hsitorically leveled his criticism, i cant disagree if what he was most troubled by and vocal about was piss poor planning, questionable offensive leadership, and a gameplan that literally wastes the talents of its players. But regardless, you cant let that type of dissension exist.

My gutt says this situation is not going to get better with PH's departure. I dont get the sense that the players are happy about it and slapping high fives because the guy was an ass. The responses so far have been more along the lines of regret. that alone should tell you that if he was complaining about how things are done, he was being used or a game is being called, that some must see the same thing. some might include ADB who has been vocal about the O's ineptitude and Lynch.

So we'll see over the next two months how the team responds. IF Pete can get bev to put together a string of solid games then he'll get buy in again. if not, i think things are going to boil over rather quickly because it will mean that the team let go its most talented (albeit hot-headed) player because he was being honest in his criticism of its leadership.

we shall see.
Really good post man. I said before the season that the offense was going to have to carry this team more than it has because what we saw last year from our team's defense was a once in a generation season and it would be very difficult if not impossible to duplicate. Losing depth obviously was going to make that task a notch or two more difficult as well. So far, the offense has failed to step up and carry a larger share of the load save for game 1. However, game 1 does at least give me some hope that it is possible.

For me, TOP is the key here. Seattle has lost 2 games this season and on both occasions they lost the TOP battle very decisively. As you have mentioned, Pete's offensive philosophy is quite conservative and relying on the defense is key to his approach to winning football (along with limiting turnovers). He also believes in speed and thus has sacrificed size for speed on defense. Our team's defense needs time on the sideline to stay fresh and unless the offense is able to win the TOP battle, that doesn't happen.

That said, the problem this year is IMO is that then team has gotten away from its identity of ball control and in our losses, it's bit us in the rear end. How much of that is on Bevell? I don't know, but I suspect Pete gives him reasonable autonomy on game day to call the game as he sees fit and if that's the case, the answer is "quite a bit" because he got away from the identity of this team and as a result exposed the defense to their biggest weakness, too much time on the field.

I also think it would be rather disingenuous of Pete and John to lay all of this at the feet of Bevell because they went after Harvin in the first place and he is obviously the reason this team did get away from its strength, at least to my eyes anyway. In the end, unlike you I think this will be addition by subtraction and the team will get much better going forward because I think we'll get a hold back on TOP and our shitty o-line will respond to more run blocking in a positive fashion. However, at this point I don't think out offense is good enough to carry more of the weight for this team and as a result we'll likely finish in the 10-6, 11-5 range rather than 13-3 or 14-2.

Because it's early in the season still and because I think Pete and John will be honest with themselves as it relates to acquiring Harvin, Bevell survives and is OC again next year fulfilling his role as "Pete's puppet" as you put it though I would call it "calling the game the way Pete wants it called". I do think that this failure to incorporate Percy into the offense in a positive way will preclude Bevell from a head coaching job. Well, that and Gus' failure in Jax.
 

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Can't get my head around why 99.9% of this forum feel it necessary to dance around the fact this blunder is on Pete? Pete is human, humans make mistakes and as HC, Pete needs to be held accountable for his mistakes. This whole "Fire Bevel" campaign suddenly looks pretty damn well off base. It's now abundantly clear Pete was trying to showcase Harvin this year, hoping to get decent compensation for him in trade.

I've said this a zillion times, but Bevell is doing as asked by Pete. And trying to do his best with a crap o-line, which certainly isn't his fault, and worse, tying to implement plays that a team, on the brink of chaos, just might execute.

As for his position on Harvin, it doesn't sound like he withheld anything from Pete and simply told of his experiences with Harvin. You can't fault him for that. Bevell had Favre on that team and you can bet Favre had Harvin well under control. Favre once told Harvin "listen to me and I will put you in Canton".

There is ZERO chance Pete didn't know of Harvin's mercurial nature. Pete had been enamored by Harvin since about the time Percy got his 1st driver's license and certainly before Bevell ever even heard Harvin's name. In short, Pete won us a SB and we love him for that, but that certainly doesn't encapsulate him in Teflon and it certainty doesn't mean he is above critique.

To Pete's credit, I believe Harvin was gone before his 1st snap with the team. I recall Pete's pressers and watching his discomfort as he spoke of Harvin's decision to elect for surgery. My guess is the team was displeased as well, we know Tate was (!) and they played their ass' off last year to prove Harvin wasn't a necessary component. Pete's comments about the reported healthy Harvin, who "still didn't feel ready" (weeks after the Vike game) were quite telling when he said (I paraphrase) "The doctors have cleared Percy, he looks good to go but I think he's having some personal issues". Coaches don't say that stuff if there is not something seriously messed up.

Pete gambled and kept Harvin on the roster this year to try to maximize his trade value and also likely to save his own face. I'm fine with that. Human nature. When things got worse, and it appeared the team was spinning into disarray, Pete finally flushed the turd and while I give him credit for doing so, that doesn't give him a get out of jail free card for putting that turd in our punchbowl. Sorry, hope nobody was eating.
 

HawkAroundTheClock

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I blame the mental case with anger management issues. Personal responsibility.

I can't blame coaches for trying. I can't blame them for maintaining the philosophy that their players will want for nothing as long as they buy in. That takes trust and sometimes a leap of faith. I can't blame one of the tightest organizations in professional sports for believing that by providing every opportunity for a young man with special talents to self-actualize, that he might enter a new phase and become what he can be.

Percy has serious mental problems. More than we knew. The only way he'll maximize and actualize his potential is if he admits his faults and seeks professional help. Brandon Marshall is a prime example.

Just a reminder: While in high school, Percy punched a teacher in the cafeteria and a referee during a game. He was suspended another time for unsportsmanlike contact. Despite being an all-state track star, during his senior year the local high school sports association BANNED him, reportedly stemming from a fight during a basketball game. His antics in college, including violence against a coach, refusal to practice, and testing positive for weed, are well documented. He was a malcontent in Minnesota.

I understand the urge to blame our coaches who knew about all this. But I won't blame them for hoping they could help him turn the corner and finally grow up. I blame the violent head case who refuses to grow up.

When confronted with jackass behavior, blame the jackass. Don't blame those who gave him a chance to redeem himself.
 

dumbrabbit

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Why do we always have to blame someone? It just didn't work out. Let's move on for once.
 

akscoundrel

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Carroll and bevell knew exactly the type of guy Harvin was. They knew exactly what they were getting, and were cool with it. Why the sudden and drastic change? It seems every player, except for Tate(who is probably a little salty), liked Harvin and were surprised by his departure.

I can't help but think, if bevell wasn't a goober, would Harvin still be around?
 
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