The team may be too young.

kf3339 · Oct 23, 2014

I have been thinking about the trade of Percy Harvin with all the talk of his issues and how they affected the team. I also have been watching how this team has performed so far this year and have come to the conclusion we are too young.

Pete Carroll has been stressing getting younger and more athletic as a team. While I don't think anyone would argue with that approach it has been at the expense of some experienced veterans that have been cut to make room for this youth movement. His goal has been to develop talent much like you do with a college team. The problem is that free agency and the cap makes it very hard to keep that talent long term. So my thought is that a locker room with too much youth can be influenced by the wrong type of environment or personality(s). That is where your vocal veteran leaders must step in. Do we have those guys today? I don't think so.

Momentum within a game and a season can be a fluid thing. How often have you seen one team take or lose it that impacts the outcome of a game? How about within a full season? You see it all the time in sports.

It would be wise for PC to look at this issue within himself, and make sure his philosophy is taking into account how going so young is possibly leading him to not have that veteran presence which can be so key with a game like pro football being played by grown men. I'm not saying it's going to happen as I doubt he reflects much about his beliefs, but it is the one area I think he may be missing on with this team today and going forward.

Sgt. Largent · Oct 23, 2014

If you mean by too young that we've lost some of the veteran leaders like Red, Clem and M-Rob that were the glue to keeping the locker room together, I agree.

We were the 2nd youngest team ever to win the SB, so it's not just an age issue...............it's an internal leadership issue.

If we want to keep this train rolling in the right direction, guys like Sherm, Russell, ET, Max, Kam, Doug, etc are going to have to do a better job of galvanizing the locker room. I think they're trying, but it hasn't been enough so far this year. Definitely see some discourse on this team right now.

DavidSeven · Oct 23, 2014

The unit that's hurting this team most right now is the D-line. That is the oldest group on the team. Some would argue O-line, which also has vets and probably skews older.

I don't get sucked into media narratives. There are two sports stories that are ever written: (A) the emergence (and/or comeback); and (B) the downfall. To sell these stories, the media will find and manipulate any factoid that helps dramatize either Story A or Story B.

I don't think the results of this season have much to do with "veteran leadership" or the lack thereof. How is that manifesting itself? That wouldn't explain our lack of pressure up front or our blocking. We're a 3rd & 20 stop + a special teams stop away from being 5-1. Drop the temps in SD by 20 degrees, and you're talking 6-0. We got all the breaks last year; we're getting none of them this year. Along with less talent up front (not less leadership), that's what the three losses comes down to.

Sgt. Largent · Oct 23, 2014

DavidSeven":307hrqe3 said:
I don't think the results of this season have much to do with "veteran leadership" or the lack thereof. How is that manifesting itself? That wouldn't explain our lack of pressure up front or our blocking. We're a 3rd & 20 stop + a special teams stop away from being 5-1. Drop the temps in SD by 20 degrees, and you're talking 6-0. We got all the breaks last year; we're getting none of them this year. Along with less talent up front (not less leadership), that's what the three losses comes down to.

For sure things like talent, depth and what happens on the field is #1 when it comes to success or failure. But teams need locker room leaders to overcome adversity as well, it's definitely part of the winning equation..........and right now we're losing, so maybe not having guys like M-Rob and Big Red around that everyone respected and listened to is a negative.

volsunghawk · Oct 23, 2014

kf3339":fmk96uso said:
I have been thinking about the trade of Percy Harvin with all the talk of his issues and how they affected the team. I also have been watching how this team has performed so far this year and have come to the conclusion we are too young.

Pete Carroll has been stressing getting younger and more athletic as a team. While I don't think anyone would argue with that approach it has been at the expense of some experienced veterans that have been cut to make room for this youth movement. His goal has been to develop talent much like you do with a college team. The problem is that free agency and the cap makes it very hard to keep that talent long term. So my thought is that a locker room with too much youth can be influenced by the wrong type of environment or personality(s). That is where your vocal veteran leaders must step in. Do we have those guys today? I don't think so.

Momentum within a game and a season can be a fluid thing. How often have you seen one team take or lose it that impacts the outcome of a game? How about within a full season? You see it all the time in sports.

It would be wise for PC to look at this issue within himself, and make sure his philosophy is taking into account how going so young is possibly leading him to not have that veteran presence which can be so key with a game like pro football being played by grown men. I'm not saying it's going to happen as I doubt he reflects much about his beliefs, but it is the one area I think he may be missing on with this team today and going forward.

Same thing was said when we let Hass and Lofa walk. You've got to remember that all of these guys were leaders on their high school teams, their college teams. Wilson is a leader. ET is a leader. Sherm and ADB are leaders. Kam is a leader (remember who called the players-only meeting to put an end to the PED suspensions?).

Sometimes, it's just about the chemistry. Even leaders can't dictate how chemistry within a locker room is going to work. Minnesota had plenty of veteran leadership when Harvin was creating rifts there.

kf3339 · Oct 23, 2014

Sgt. Largent":1mfuowa9 said:
DavidSeven":1mfuowa9 said:

I don't think the results of this season have much to do with "veteran leadership" or the lack thereof. How is that manifesting itself? That wouldn't explain our lack of pressure up front or our blocking. We're a 3rd & 20 stop + a special teams stop away from being 5-1. Drop the temps in SD by 20 degrees, and you're talking 6-0. We got all the breaks last year; we're getting none of them this year. Along with less talent up front (not less leadership), that's what the three losses comes down to.

Click to expand...

For sure things like talent, depth and what happens on the field is #1 when it comes to success or failure. But teams need locker room leaders to overcome adversity as well, it's definitely part of the winning equation..........and right now we're losing, so maybe not having guys like M-Rob and Big Red around that everyone respected and listened to is a negative.

I agree about M-Rob and Big Red being gone is probably the largest issue for me. There is no real veteran of our offensive players that I believe would have the same vocal impact on the sideline or locker room as M-Rob. The same can be said for Big Red on defense. They had respect. The results speak for themselves.

kf3339 · Oct 23, 2014

volsunghawk":13hwc6d7 said:
kf3339":13hwc6d7 said:

I have been thinking about the trade of Percy Harvin with all the talk of his issues and how they affected the team. I also have been watching how this team has performed so far this year and have come to the conclusion we are too young.

Pete Carroll has been stressing getting younger and more athletic as a team. While I don't think anyone would argue with that approach it has been at the expense of some experienced veterans that have been cut to make room for this youth movement. His goal has been to develop talent much like you do with a college team. The problem is that free agency and the cap makes it very hard to keep that talent long term. So my thought is that a locker room with too much youth can be influenced by the wrong type of environment or personality(s). That is where your vocal veteran leaders must step in. Do we have those guys today? I don't think so.

Momentum within a game and a season can be a fluid thing. How often have you seen one team take or lose it that impacts the outcome of a game? How about within a full season? You see it all the time in sports.

It would be wise for PC to look at this issue within himself, and make sure his philosophy is taking into account how going so young is possibly leading him to not have that veteran presence which can be so key with a game like pro football being played by grown men. I'm not saying it's going to happen as I doubt he reflects much about his beliefs, but it is the one area I think he may be missing on with this team today and going forward.

Click to expand...

Same thing was said when we let Hass and Lofa walk. You've got to remember that all of these guys were leaders on their high school teams, their college teams. Wilson is a leader. ET is a leader. Sherm and ADB are leaders. Kam is a leader (remember who called the players-only meeting to put an end to the PED suspensions?).

Sometimes, it's just about the chemistry. Even leaders can't dictate how chemistry within a locker room is going to work. Minnesota had plenty of veteran leadership when Harvin was creating rifts there.

High school and college are not the same thing. They are kids; not grown men. Kam is a fiery guy, but I'm not sure he would qualify as a true veteran yet. I'm thinking more of guys that have been in the league for 8 plus years that have earned the respect of players thru-out their career, but also have a vocal presence that players will respond to in a positive way. We don't have that right now at least in my opinion.

DavidSeven · Oct 23, 2014

kf3339":2xnuqkvq said:
There is no real veteran of our offensive players that I believe would have the same vocal impact on the sideline or locker room as M-Rob. [. . .] The results speak for themselves.

They do? 26.5 PPG on offense this year; 26.1 PPG on offense last year.

The biggest change from last year is defensive points allowed -- but that is also where we lost the most talent and have suffered the most meaningful injuries. Forget leadership, if we had a legitimate interior pass rusher, Wagner, Lane, Maxwell and a non-gimpy Kam, this defense would look a lot different. Again, buying into media-driven narratives is silly, especially when there are easy and real explanations out there.

volsunghawk · Oct 23, 2014

kf3339":14xyf3ii said:
volsunghawk":14xyf3ii said:

kf3339":14xyf3ii said:

I have been thinking about the trade of Percy Harvin with all the talk of his issues and how they affected the team. I also have been watching how this team has performed so far this year and have come to the conclusion we are too young.

Pete Carroll has been stressing getting younger and more athletic as a team. While I don't think anyone would argue with that approach it has been at the expense of some experienced veterans that have been cut to make room for this youth movement. His goal has been to develop talent much like you do with a college team. The problem is that free agency and the cap makes it very hard to keep that talent long term. So my thought is that a locker room with too much youth can be influenced by the wrong type of environment or personality(s). That is where your vocal veteran leaders must step in. Do we have those guys today? I don't think so.

Momentum within a game and a season can be a fluid thing. How often have you seen one team take or lose it that impacts the outcome of a game? How about within a full season? You see it all the time in sports.

It would be wise for PC to look at this issue within himself, and make sure his philosophy is taking into account how going so young is possibly leading him to not have that veteran presence which can be so key with a game like pro football being played by grown men. I'm not saying it's going to happen as I doubt he reflects much about his beliefs, but it is the one area I think he may be missing on with this team today and going forward.

Click to expand...

Same thing was said when we let Hass and Lofa walk. You've got to remember that all of these guys were leaders on their high school teams, their college teams. Wilson is a leader. ET is a leader. Sherm and ADB are leaders. Kam is a leader (remember who called the players-only meeting to put an end to the PED suspensions?).

Sometimes, it's just about the chemistry. Even leaders can't dictate how chemistry within a locker room is going to work. Minnesota had plenty of veteran leadership when Harvin was creating rifts there.

Click to expand...

High school and college are not the same thing. They are kids; not grown men. Kam is a fiery guy, but I'm not sure he would qualify as a true veteran yet. I'm thinking more of guys that have been in the league for 8 plus years that have earned the respect of players thru-out their career, but also have a vocal presence that players will respond to in a positive way. We don't have that right now at least in my opinion.

I disagree. Leadership is a skill that is honed over time. It's not like guys who were leaders in high school and college suddenly CAN'T be leaders as a professional. Likewise, there's nothing about longevity in the league that automatically grants leadership qualities. I would argue that Thomas - in his 5th year - is a vocal leader on the team, and that his leadership is just as good as Mebane's if not better, and Mebane is in that 8th year you're using as a benchmark.

I realize this is all opinion, but I think the "lack of leadership" argument is flawed. I think this team has ample leadership, even if some of it is less vocal. I recall one clip in training camp where Okung dragged a rookie lineman (might have been Moffitt) away from the cameras because the line had decided to not speak with the media at the time. That's an action where Okung was demonstrating leadership through actions, rather than words, even though he only had a couple of seasons under his belt.

SoulfishHawk · Oct 23, 2014

They were the youngest team in football last year, and won the whole thing.

MontanaHawk05 · Oct 23, 2014

Too young to do what, win a Super Bowl? Like they just did?

dumbrabbit · Oct 23, 2014

I thought about removing this post, but this can't be said enough times: so then we were too young to win the Super Bowl?

Largent80 · Oct 23, 2014

It pretty much IS what David said. D-line. 3 changes there in just departures alone, then Williams is in there.

Plus....CB injuries and departures.

Practice squad and traded for players that were on others practice squads or barely any playing time.

They have had plenty of time to figure it out so, I am not expecting any miracles, but would welcome getting tough up front again, that's going to help the DB's.

TwistedHusky · Oct 23, 2014

I pointed this out earlier.

This team literally lost almost all its locker room leaders.

Even Rice was a guy that kept people on the ball, based on what we were hearing but Red, Clem and MRob? Those were the heart of the leadership. They kept people in line and kept a strong allegiance to Russell.

The FO just mistakenly assumed that because Wilson won the SB and because of this dynamic personality that everyone would fall magically in line behind him. That was a tragic error, because not only are they not falling magically in line behind him - the rumors of problems between the pro-Wilson and anti-Wilson (not anti in being against, but anti in refusing to acknowledge the leadership or refusing to follow behind) crowds are leaking out.

Clearly, not everyone is falling behind Wilson blindly. Whereas guys like Red and Clem could get respect just from their years as veteran players. If you didn't follow or trust Wilson, you would follow and trust Red, Clem and Mike. So it kept things aligned.

Now we have the opposite. We have so many agendas and nobody that can take control of things. Wilson is trying, but wanting to be respected and being respected are two different things. The latter is really out of his control, all he can do is lead by example but even then - overcoming the agendas and preconceptions is a hard road.

SoulfishHawk · Oct 23, 2014

Too young and not black enough. Dang it :mrgreen:

kf3339 · Oct 24, 2014

TwistedHusky":2sxulty5 said:
I pointed this out earlier.

This team literally lost almost all its locker room leaders.

Even Rice was a guy that kept people on the ball, based on what we were hearing but Red, Clem and MRob? Those were the heart of the leadership. They kept people in line and kept a strong allegiance to Russell.

The FO just mistakenly assumed that because Wilson won the SB and because of this dynamic personality that everyone would fall magically in line behind him. That was a tragic error, because not only are they not falling magically in line behind him - the rumors of problems between the pro-Wilson and anti-Wilson (not anti in being against, but anti in refusing to acknowledge the leadership or refusing to follow behind) crowds are leaking out.

Clearly, not everyone is falling behind Wilson blindly. Whereas guys like Red and Clem could get respect just from their years as veteran players. If you didn't follow or trust Wilson, you would follow and trust Red, Clem and Mike. So it kept things aligned.

Now we have the opposite. We have so many agendas and nobody that can take control of things. Wilson is trying, but wanting to be respected and being respected are two different things. The latter is really out of his control, all he can do is lead by example but even then - overcoming the agendas and preconceptions is a hard road.

I agree completely. Some of course don't see this at all.

kf3339 · Oct 24, 2014

dumbrabbit":34n4wr52 said:
I thought about removing this post, but this can't be said enough times: so then we were too young to win the Super Bowl?

What happened last year is not my point at all.

volsunghawk · Oct 24, 2014

kf3339":2d8ggjsn said:
TwistedHusky":2d8ggjsn said:

I pointed this out earlier.

This team literally lost almost all its locker room leaders.

Even Rice was a guy that kept people on the ball, based on what we were hearing but Red, Clem and MRob? Those were the heart of the leadership. They kept people in line and kept a strong allegiance to Russell.

The FO just mistakenly assumed that because Wilson won the SB and because of this dynamic personality that everyone would fall magically in line behind him. That was a tragic error, because not only are they not falling magically in line behind him - the rumors of problems between the pro-Wilson and anti-Wilson (not anti in being against, but anti in refusing to acknowledge the leadership or refusing to follow behind) crowds are leaking out.

Clearly, not everyone is falling behind Wilson blindly. Whereas guys like Red and Clem could get respect just from their years as veteran players. If you didn't follow or trust Wilson, you would follow and trust Red, Clem and Mike. So it kept things aligned.

Now we have the opposite. We have so many agendas and nobody that can take control of things. Wilson is trying, but wanting to be respected and being respected are two different things. The latter is really out of his control, all he can do is lead by example but even then - overcoming the agendas and preconceptions is a hard road.

Click to expand...

I agree completely. Some of course don't see this at all.

I don't see ghosts, either. :mrgreen:

Cartire · Oct 24, 2014

This team may just be the right age...

See, I can say something too.

kf3339 · Oct 24, 2014

volsunghawk":3cjwba21 said:
kf3339":3cjwba21 said:

TwistedHusky":3cjwba21 said:

I pointed this out earlier.

This team literally lost almost all its locker room leaders.

Even Rice was a guy that kept people on the ball, based on what we were hearing but Red, Clem and MRob? Those were the heart of the leadership. They kept people in line and kept a strong allegiance to Russell.

The FO just mistakenly assumed that because Wilson won the SB and because of this dynamic personality that everyone would fall magically in line behind him. That was a tragic error, because not only are they not falling magically in line behind him - the rumors of problems between the pro-Wilson and anti-Wilson (not anti in being against, but anti in refusing to acknowledge the leadership or refusing to follow behind) crowds are leaking out.

Clearly, not everyone is falling behind Wilson blindly. Whereas guys like Red and Clem could get respect just from their years as veteran players. If you didn't follow or trust Wilson, you would follow and trust Red, Clem and Mike. So it kept things aligned.

Now we have the opposite. We have so many agendas and nobody that can take control of things. Wilson is trying, but wanting to be respected and being respected are two different things. The latter is really out of his control, all he can do is lead by example but even then - overcoming the agendas and preconceptions is a hard road.

Click to expand...

I agree completely. Some of course don't see this at all.

Click to expand...

I don't see ghosts, either. :mrgreen:

Really? I see them all over the damn place! :lol:

The team may be too young.

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