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NFL facing similar conundrum to Harley Davidson

Discuss any and all NFL-related topics and matters of interest here. LANGUAGE RATING: PG-13
  • The question looming for Harley Davidson is whether they can deviate away from their all encompassing lifestyle brand to sell motorcycles to a younger generation. Despite being the 800 lb gorilla in the industry and having bought out and killed competitors there is a demographic cliff looming for them: Their target demo that have been loyal customers for decades are now getting to be above riding age. That same target demo is also completely adverse to changes to the underlying design and mechanics and is more than willing to pay more for that branding than better equipped and designed and less expensive bikes.

    To wit, their product line is less diverse, again to satiate the core customers they've had for decades.

    Harley Davidson at one point bought an intriguing company called Buell and gutted the entire company. Buell had several different types of bike, was forward thinking in aesthetics and technology, and had more nascent appeal among bike enthusiasts who weren't brand loyal.

    So where are the parallels to the NFL here?

    1. The long time viewers (4+ decades) of the NFL are going through two changes - their disposable income is going down as they end their careers (which like Harley is at odds with the premium the command). As such their advertising value is also shrinking. This will have an impact not only on what advertisers are willing to pay for NFL spots BUT will also have an impact on who chooses to advertise on NFL spots. For folks like me you really get a picture of the audience based on the advertisements. The ad programmers try their best to strike a balance of specific targets and general targets but there's a reason 60 minutes has so many quality of life pharma ads while Always Sunny does not.

    Secondly, they are remaining a captive audience by the medium they use. The advertising value on TV, one of the chiefly important revenue streams will be impacted by people 35 and under who in general, don't utilize TV as the sole source of entertainment or at least primary. You can see this in the multitude of stories about cord cutters (of which I am one) but in 10-15 years time what will the outlook be for over the air advertising revenues?

    2. Some large proportion of the audience imagines the NFL as some immutable status quo (Much like a large proportion of Harley fans think anything but air cooling is as wrong as sin). Read the ad nauseum comments about missing how brutal and raw and pure the NFL was back in the 70s and 80s. This nostalgia works well so long as new generations similarly lap it up but this is where both the NFL and Harley are running into issues - younger generations, especially with Harley view them as dentist weekend pirate cosplay whether they're even bike enthusiasts or not. For many younger fans of the NFL watching Ricardo Lockette be on death's door after that hit doesn't conjur up feelings of "OH MAN, THE NFL IS WAR! YAH!" it merely reinforces all the real negative impacts that the game itself has on the participants. In fact, one of the starkest divergences is the ability to stomach obviously detrimental hits and in some cases elevate those as the essence of football. For people that have a wide breadth of games, both sport and otherwise, I don't believe this has to be the case but I know more than a handful would shout me down for suggesting the NFL could learn a lot from Rugby.

    The connection to the NFL will always be tribal on some level just as brand loyalty is to Harley. An older generation views that brand loyalty in some small part as ownership of the brand itself. But what if the brand image being projected works really well on one cohort while being a complete turnoff to another? This is where cost benefit analysis comes into play, obviously, but for both the NFL and Harley it seems like most initiatives are borne out of trying to extract as much profit out already loyal customers by spurning potential new ones. Again, I allude to the premium that Harley commands among their core demographic that internalizes it as a lifestyle. Without the cultural cache they will be hard pressed to maintain profit margins and as time moves forward it is becoming apparent that Harley wants to ram their idea of a customer down the entire market's throat. From turning show rooms into schwag rooms to how their salespeople interact with the customer ("You man enough to ride a Harley?").

    Looping that back to the NFL, I believe a large proportion of NFL fans view it as part of their core identity - not quite to the level of college football but still very strong affinity in many markets. This is great in the short to medium turn but has the potential to alienate a wider following of the game in the long term.

    3. Outward resentment not only from other fans but from the league itself towards potential new and different viewers. This dovetails back into point 2 with regard to how fans view their place in football and how football places in their lives. The sense of ownership is the exact reason issues revolving around Kaep/Reid/Bennett are couched in terms of "it makes business sense to do X thing" but using a very near term outlook. Yes, it alienating old or longtime viewers isn't 'good business' per se BUT it will happen regardless if you do anything but remain stagnant.

    You could also use TD celebrations as another piece of evidence in the dichotomy and one where the NFL has yielded.

    Speaking towards resentment towards other fans, there is a bit of self selection here especially on sites like Seahawks.net and Fieldgulls where obviously we go out of our way to discuss everything and anything around the team but...there is a definite entitlement abundant about 'fanning' the right way. And what football should be. And it's all self serving to validate how one's self does it. Cause how else does one justify spending ~20 hours a week talking about a game we don't even participate in?

    4. Being the 800 lb gorilla is great until it isn't. And when it turns bad it's because the 800 lb gorilla starved to death resting on the laurels of being the 800 lb gorilla. There are changes under way right now demographically (and Mods, please please please excuse the political content of this point because the underlying point isn't the politics inherent but a reflection of how one cohort differs from another) where a younger generation is

    A. trending away from conservative identity. Much was written in the aftermath of the 2016 about how millenials et al are less likely to identify as either Republican or Democrat but when polled on specific issues and specific approval of current power holders more than just lean Democrat.

    B. Don't have the same reverence for cultural touchstones of Boomers. Whenever I hear an older person complaining about how young people ruin everything I just remind myself that it's a complaint about how young people don't appreciate the same exact things in the same exact way as the older person. That's just natural though, not an outrage.

    C. Have way less ingrained modes of entertaining themselves. Referencing point B, look at how some bristle at all the 'not football' things currently injected into the stadium and TV experience.

    D. Less disposable income at the same place in life as previous generations by a confluence of factors. This is especially the case with Harley but you could apply the underlying mechanics to ticket sales in the NFL. Imagine a future where the vast vast majority of NFL fans have never stepped foot inside the stadium of their favorite NFL team. And don't want to given the actual experience of gameday from the trip, the parking, the milling about, the other fans (don't get me started on stadium restrooms and the tragedy of the urinal commons), the inferior views, etc etc. And would be hard pressed to justify financially if they did want to. Assuming that ticket prices decline to clear the market though, this would impact the profitability of the NFL itself but also diminish the potential to enjoy the public funds that buoy their stadium projects in the first place.

    5. Apathy from long standing fans about the future of the NFL - fans who only care about the 10-15 year outlook and ensuring it aligns with what they already know and love. That certainly is a way to view the NFL and the world at large but it undercuts the value of input from those people. How are people concerned with the 20-30 outlook supposed to find useful information from people that implicitly state "let this thing die after I die"?

    While there are some key differences between the NFL and Harley the similarities in catering to an aging hardcore demographic and potentially painting themselves into an intractable or less profitable corner is there and its a conundrum steeped in not having to adapt by virtue of market power over competitors. But both companies are hurtling towards the same question: "Have we done enough to replace the ultra loyal ranks willing to pay more for an outdated product with a similar consumer?" and in my estimation the answer is no.
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  • Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

    The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

    How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

    Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

    Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

    Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

    The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

    The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

    Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.
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  • chris98251 wrote:Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.


    This paragraph is all the validation my various points needed. Needlessly invective while claiming sole ownership to what football is and excluding everyone else for 'fanning' wrong. Seeming indifference if football exists in the future or a flat rejection of what football might become in the future.

    The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.


    False and wanders into personal social theory.

    How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.


    Clearly you don't work in marketing by asking such a question. It is such a defeatist and resentful old person thing to imagine the youth of today as an enigmatic sphinx beyond understanding by anyone, including themselves.

    Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.


    Okay, so hypothesize how that affects the future of sports leagues. Here's the impression I get from you:

    Image

    On the one hand you identify something that I can totally resonate with. On the other hand your reaction seems to be "they need to change to conform to preexisting structures". On a more fundamental level do you even really care if sports leagues exist in the future and do you really think the NFL or Harley Davidson should sit on their hands and tell potential customers to get in line, just cause you did? The internet genie is out of the bottle, there's no turning back on how that affected every cohort of society. The question is how we manage that reality but it's hard with nostalgists pretending there is a way to turn back.

    It comes across to me that you are severely disinterested in how the NFL will react to the oncoming demographic changes. I offered a morbid rationale for that but is there more to it than that? Just as a on the nose example, would you have started a thread like this on your own? ;)

    Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

    Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

    The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.


    Care to elaborate on your hypothesis in how sports will change? I'm genuinely interested! What do you see becoming more popular and why and on what timeline?

    The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

    Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.


    When you were 34, did you really expect the world to never change? I'm 34 now, I'll probably be similarly resentful about how the youth ruined my favorite things over time when I'm your age (please tell me you aren't 35 ;) ). But I'll also really make an effort to not think my nostalgia is that important. It already pisses me off that half the entertainment industry couldn't help but mine my childhood for ideas from the mid 2000s onward.

    FWIW, I played football in high school and equal parts resentful and thankful I couldn't play more. Wasn't blessed with a football frame but spared countless concussions. But man, to play football professionally...sigh...
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  • chris98251 wrote:Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

    The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

    How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

    Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

    Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

    Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

    The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

    The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

    Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.


    Well, you've convinced me, Chris. You've convinced you're unaware or deliberately ignoring growing evidence of various societal improvements, such as on-going declines in crime, unwanted teen pregnancy, etc. You've convinced me no matter how many classes I take, how many books I read, or how much work I do, I'll be confined to the overly biased stereotyping of someone fearing the unknown. You've shown me the words of a troll, a hater, a fool. You've convinced me your opinion is, for the time being, devoid of value. You've convinced me you're what I, like every member of every other modern generation has done when following the previous generation, will improve upon. You think you're calling us out but instead, the message we're receiving is "I don't know what I'm talking about and you should no longer look to me for suggestions about what to do with this planet you're going to become much more responsible for." Was the rant really worth it?
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  • Dat millenial-bashing doe.
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  • BirdsCommaAngry wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

    The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

    How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

    Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

    Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

    Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

    The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

    The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

    Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.


    Well, you've convinced me, Chris. You've convinced you're unaware or deliberately ignoring growing evidence of various societal improvements, such as on-going declines in crime, unwanted teen pregnancy, etc. You've convinced me no matter how many classes I take, how many books I read, or how much work I do, I'll be confined to the overly biased stereotyping of someone fearing the unknown. You've shown me the words of a troll, a hater, a fool. You've convinced me your opinion is, for the time being, devoid of value. You've convinced me you're what I, like every member of every other modern generation has done when following the previous generation, will improve upon. You think you're calling us out but instead, the message we're receiving is "I don't know what I'm talking about and you should no longer look to me for suggestions about what to do with this planet you're going to become much more responsible for." Was the rant really worth it?

    Wow...You have covinced me that you are so sensitive with little backbone over someones opinion.
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  • Please stay on track so an interesting subject isn’t closed

    Don’t argue why people are what they are stick to how the product can continue to be profitably delivered and grow in a changing environment
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  • mikeak wrote:Please stay on track so an interesting subject isn’t closed

    Don’t argue why people are what they are stick to how the product can continue to be profitably delivered and grow in a changing environment


    Thank you for saying this! It is kind of a symptom of the apathy or disinterest though. Instead of focusing on how to manage and deal a lot of people approach this from a "how do I feel and why did it happen (So I can provide a rationale for how I feel)" POV, which can be interesting but at this point doesn't cover much new ground in thought and action.

    I could lump in a few other companies facing this generational gap like Sears and JC Penny although they've been on notice since the mid 2000s and aren't seemingly finding their footing in a changing retail space. Is the fate of most retailers like that Mervyn's?
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  • mrt144 wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.


    This paragraph is all the validation my various points needed. Needlessly invective while claiming sole ownership to what football is and excluding everyone else for 'fanning' wrong. Seeming indifference if football exists in the future or a flat rejection of what football might become in the future.

    The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.


    False and wanders into personal social theory.

    How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.


    Clearly you don't work in marketing by asking such a question. It is such a defeatist and resentful old person thing to imagine the youth of today as an enigmatic sphinx beyond understanding by anyone, including themselves.

    Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.


    Okay, so hypothesize how that affects the future of sports leagues. Here's the impression I get from you:

    Image

    On the one hand you identify something that I can totally resonate with. On the other hand your reaction seems to be "they need to change to conform to preexisting structures". On a more fundamental level do you even really care if sports leagues exist in the future and do you really think the NFL or Harley Davidson should sit on their hands and tell potential customers to get in line, just cause you did? The internet genie is out of the bottle, there's no turning back on how that affected every cohort of society. The question is how we manage that reality but it's hard with nostalgists pretending there is a way to turn back.

    It comes across to me that you are severely disinterested in how the NFL will react to the oncoming demographic changes. I offered a morbid rationale for that but is there more to it than that? Just as a on the nose example, would you have started a thread like this on your own? ;)

    Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

    Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

    The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.


    Care to elaborate on your hypothesis in how sports will change? I'm genuinely interested! What do you see becoming more popular and why and on what timeline?

    The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

    Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.


    When you were 34, did you really expect the world to never change? I'm 34 now, I'll probably be similarly resentful about how the youth ruined my favorite things over time when I'm your age (please tell me you aren't 35 ;) ). But I'll also really make an effort to not think my nostalgia is that important. It already pisses me off that half the entertainment industry couldn't help but mine my childhood for ideas from the mid 2000s onward.

    FWIW, I played football in high school and equal parts resentful and thankful I couldn't play more. Wasn't blessed with a football frame but spared countless concussions. But man, to play football professionally...sigh...


    I will have to get back to your dissection and skewing of context comments when I am not at work.
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  • chris98251 wrote:
    I will have to get back to your dissection and skewing of context comments when I am not at work.


    I tried not to skew context except in the first paragraph. I want to keep you on the rails of what you think will happen ;)
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  • BirdsCommaAngry wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

    The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

    How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

    Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

    Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

    Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

    The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

    The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

    Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.


    Well, you've convinced me, Chris. You've convinced you're unaware or deliberately ignoring growing evidence of various societal improvements, such as on-going declines in crime, unwanted teen pregnancy, etc. You've convinced me no matter how many classes I take, how many books I read, or how much work I do, I'll be confined to the overly biased stereotyping of someone fearing the unknown. You've shown me the words of a troll, a hater, a fool. You've convinced me your opinion is, for the time being, devoid of value. You've convinced me you're what I, like every member of every other modern generation has done when following the previous generation, will improve upon. You think you're calling us out but instead, the message we're receiving is "I don't know what I'm talking about and you should no longer look to me for suggestions about what to do with this planet you're going to become much more responsible for." Was the rant really worth it?


    Oh your special by the way, we know saying something that could be associated with you and isn't empty praise and comes with a participation trophy so you don't deem yourself a failure is foreign.

    Feel better now.
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  • Very interesting and well thought out post, mrt144. I think you're spot-on on the vast majority of your points, and the situations with the NFL and Harley are microcosms of society today.

    mrt144 wrote:This nostalgia works well so long as new generations similarly lap it up but this is where both the NFL and Harley are running into issues - younger generations, especially with Harley, view them as dentist weekend pirate cosplay whether they're even bike enthusiasts or not. For many younger fans of the NFL watching Ricardo Lockette be on death's door after that hit doesn't conjur up feelings of "OH MAN, THE NFL IS WAR! YAH!" it merely reinforces all the real negative impacts that the game itself has on the participants.


    The bolded section had me in stitches - mainly because it's totally true. Younger generations look at Harley riders and fans who think NFL players should still be trying to paralyze each other and "just shut up and do their jobs" and they want NOTHING to do with it. It's seen as little more than toxic masculinity and false bravado. It probably sucks to be on the receiving end of such comments, but it's true.
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  • Where did Buell originate?

    Have you been in a Harley shop lately? They have a lot of variety. No crotch rockets, but that market has a ton of brands filling it.

    I see your point though. It's actually a great analogy. Just had to give you some shit. :)
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  • mrt144 wrote:
    The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.


    False and wanders into personal social theory.


    Not really. Some stereotypes are overdone, but exist for a reason.

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  • IndyHawk wrote:Wow...You have covinced me that you are so sensitive with little backbone over someones opinion.


    Would I convince you I have more backbone if I say nothing to correct a lie?

    I am sensitive. If you put me in an fMRI and watch my brain's activity, you'll probably see more brain activity during simple tasks, like reading a magazine or listening to music, than a majority or near-majority of other people. "Introverted" people test as being more sensitive to all kinds of things, like sounds, and in turn, will listen music with lower volume than some others, favor conversations where there are fewer people involved than some others, etc. You're trying to use this word as insult when it's not. It's like saying, "Your hair is brown."
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  • JGfromtheNW wrote:Very interesting and well thought out post, mrt144. I think you're spot-on on the vast majority of your points, and the situations with the NFL and Harley are microcosms of society today.

    mrt144 wrote:This nostalgia works well so long as new generations similarly lap it up but this is where both the NFL and Harley are running into issues - younger generations, especially with Harley, view them as dentist weekend pirate cosplay whether they're even bike enthusiasts or not. For many younger fans of the NFL watching Ricardo Lockette be on death's door after that hit doesn't conjur up feelings of "OH MAN, THE NFL IS WAR! YAH!" it merely reinforces all the real negative impacts that the game itself has on the participants.


    The bolded section had me in stitches - mainly because it's totally true. Younger generations look at Harley riders and fans who think NFL players should still be trying to paralyze each other and "just shut up and do their jobs" and they want NOTHING to do with it. It's seen as little more than toxic masculinity and false bravado. It probably sucks to be on the receiving end of such comments, but it's true.


    Pulling on this thread a bit more and stepping back from the specific argument put forth to a broader view - one of my perceptions is that like older generations previously through history, there are two disbeliefs going on among the Boomers+:

    1. That what they consider to be the natural status quo attained over the course of decades of their lives (6+ now) is in fact not a natural status quo but an cumulative outcome of action and reaction.

    2. That younger generations reject older generational values empirically. On a personal level, the amount of fealty my Boomer parents had towards their careers left a terrible taste in my mouth and questioning the existential value of placing career highly in my life. Materialism as well. This is a strong under current among many of my peers that a lot of the life lessons and imperatives to a good life are a rejection of what previous generations hold.

    Now there is a compelling argument to be made that a lot of our perception and values were forged in a time of increasing decadence so our values are overtly influenced by that. Even within that context though you can see there are adoptions and rejections of decadance that diverges from previous generations. For all the accusations of millenials being careless with money and prioritizing irrational things, the reality is that as an entire cohort millenials aren't drunk sailors on shore leave. Are food fads involving avocado ridiculous? Yes. Is rejecting a brand because of the obnoxious image it purposefully conveys ridiculous? No.

    A keen example of this is seen in the rise of video games and the perception of who plays video games. For many folks, if you identify one of your main hobbies as video or computer games, there's is an instant placing of you into a schema of who plays video games and what their lives are like - socially isolated and addicted. Yet when you broaden the scope of video games to include things like Farmville or anything like that, it appears that video games have a broad appeal across every spectrum and stripe of society and in fact the bare essence is that humans like games, period. The medium has changed and early adopters of media in that medium set the tone, yet society as a whole has adopted them as one of many forms of entertainment for all to enjoy.

    Then when you dig a little deeper you realize that as time has progressed, video games have leveraged the possibility of connecting with other people via the internet to play together into flourishing social communities. And in fact new entries into video game media are often time fostered as community improvement projects for the specific games. Not only do video games have the potential to unite folks of all walks together due to the infrastructure and connectivity advantages, they also can foster new ventures in creativity and cooperation.

    And now, at the stage we're at with video game development, we have entire conventions like Penny Arcade Expo which is dedicated to all things gaming that attracts tens of thousands of attendees each year and generates significant economic activity.

    But there will always be a contingent of people that place video games in the negative context formed around the time of their first stab into the greater consciousness of society and who are unwilling to adjust their schema to the changing reality around them. Again, I invoke Principal Skinner.
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  • adeltaY wrote:Dat millenial-bashing doe.


    I won't bash millennials on this topic, but the comparison is a good one.

    The NFL, like Harley Davidson has to figure out a way to appeal to a generation that has zero regard for;

    - establishment
    - tradition
    - reverence for what their dads loved

    The NFL also has to figure out how to get millennials to watch and become engaged in a 3-4 hour game on cable, when most of them only stream, and don't have that type of attention span, especially for a sport they're apathetic about.

    But this is not just the NFL, all pro sports are having this problem. Hell, baseball's been trying to figure it our for over a decade, and not succeeding.

    Bottom line though, the NFL isn't going anywhere anytime soon. It just won't ever hit the popularity heights it's achieved over the past 10-15 years, and it'll continue to evolve (or devolve for some of us).
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  • ivotuk wrote:Where did Buell originate?

    Have you been in a Harley shop lately? They have a lot of variety. No crotch rockets, but that market has a ton of brands filling it.

    I see your point though. It's actually a great analogy. Just had to give you some shit. :)


    Buell was an engineer with Harley and started his own company, so I suppose it's a bit like Mama Shark eating her young ;)

    And the last time I was in a Harley shop I was with a bud and I got popped that "Are you man enough to ride a Harley" but I like to think my Renegade-like locks are proof enough.

    :lol: No problem on busting my chops though. Just by way of example, what does Harley offer in the cafe racer mold? Cause that's the kind of entry level bike they could leverage into a lifetime customer but are seemingly reluctant to do and which a bunch of my friends into motorcycles are clamoring for to get more people riding with them. Short distance economical bikes without pizzaz or the brand premium.

    My perception is Harley wants the ultra loyal brandist who uses the bike for long rides and get togethers instead of being a utilitarian tool for transportation. With the reurbanization of people 40 and under, it seems to be at odds with money on the table at current and what a younger rider can afford in a brand new bike, if they're even buying new.

    That leads into another potential crunch on Harley that is unique to them though: what will happen to the used bike market when Boomers+ start unloading them. Sure there will be the kids who inherit the bike and maybe take up the hobby but even then they are likely inheriting a monster bike and not a Softail or something. In 10 years, what can Harley do to position their new bikes as competitive against the glut of used Harleys?
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  • All the NFL has to do is sit back and see what MLB does to adjust

    The MLB is in way more trouble. The game has no action and if you look at the phone the wrong 10 seconds you miss the homer. At least in football you know when the ball is being snapped and you can look up...

    The NFL has done a lot. All the rule changes that people complain about is to speed up the game and see more scoring. Moving the ball in chunks. It is IMHO why even a good Seahawks season two years ago was deemed as a really bad season by people. It simply wasn’t “fun” to watch... it was nothing like the fast paced ball moving offenses that even when they lead to a punt are fun to watch in between.

    The main problem to me is the competing with so much content. There are only so many hours that can be spent watching something and now that content is available 24/7. If I am going to sit down and watch tv for 3.5hrs in the middle of they day then I can’t be streaming three shows later. This combined with more households were both spouses are working and guys expected to take care of our kids leads to people like me watching the Seahawks, a little bit of red zone here or there.

    It is the same problem the whole sport of golf has. It is a great time commitment and to do it means not doing a myriad of other things. When you worked 8hrs at work, came home and dinner was ready it was a whole lot easier.....
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  • I've definitely come to enjoy the NBA much more than the NFL over the past few years, which I never thought would be the case. It seems like NFL ownership keeps getting in its own way and stepping in it, and almost seems to work on the premise that their fan base is dumb and/or uneducated.
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  • chris98251 wrote:Oh your special by the way, we know saying something that could be associated with you and isn't empty praise and comes with a participation trophy so you don't deem yourself a failure is foreign.

    Feel better now.


    And you're just a senile old man labeling any and all changes to law, cultural norms, and whatever else as the pussification of society, right? I think you'll disagree with that as much as I disagree with being labelled as someone with a closet full of participation trophies as I avoid people while I drink Starbucks and manicure my neck-beard.
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  • kobebryant wrote:I've definitely come to enjoy the NBA much more than the NFL over the past few years, which I never thought would be the case. It seems like NFL ownership keeps getting in its own way and stepping in it, and almost seems to work on the premise that their fan base is dumb and/or uneducated.


    Same reason I like soccer..........faster games, less interruptions, less confusing and frustration over the rules and reffing.

    I love my Hawks, so I'm always into our games. But I've totally stopped being a football junkie making sure I'm home for SNF, MNF and now TNF. Unless I have a vested interest, NFL games are a slog to sit through.
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  • mrt144 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:Very interesting and well thought out post, mrt144. I think you're spot-on on the vast majority of your points, and the situations with the NFL and Harley are microcosms of society today.

    mrt144 wrote:This nostalgia works well so long as new generations similarly lap it up but this is where both the NFL and Harley are running into issues - younger generations, especially with Harley, view them as dentist weekend pirate cosplay whether they're even bike enthusiasts or not. For many younger fans of the NFL watching Ricardo Lockette be on death's door after that hit doesn't conjur up feelings of "OH MAN, THE NFL IS WAR! YAH!" it merely reinforces all the real negative impacts that the game itself has on the participants.


    The bolded section had me in stitches - mainly because it's totally true. Younger generations look at Harley riders and fans who think NFL players should still be trying to paralyze each other and "just shut up and do their jobs" and they want NOTHING to do with it. It's seen as little more than toxic masculinity and false bravado. It probably sucks to be on the receiving end of such comments, but it's true.


    Pulling on this thread a bit more and stepping back from the specific argument put forth to a broader view - one of my perceptions is that like older generations previously through history, there are two disbeliefs going on among the Boomers+:

    1. That what they consider to be the natural status quo attained over the course of decades of their lives (6+ now) is in fact not a natural status quo but an cumulative outcome of action and reaction.

    2. That younger generations reject older generational values empirically. On a personal level, the amount of fealty my Boomer parents had towards their careers left a terrible taste in my mouth and questioning the existential value of placing career highly in my life. Materialism as well. This is a strong under current among many of my peers that a lot of the life lessons and imperatives to a good life are a rejection of what previous generations hold.

    Now there is a compelling argument to be made that a lot of our perception and values were forged in a time of increasing decadence so our values are overtly influenced by that. Even within that context though you can see there are adoptions and rejections of decadance that diverges from previous generations. For all the accusations of millenials being careless with money and prioritizing irrational things, the reality is that as an entire cohort millenials aren't drunk sailors on shore leave. Are food fads involving avocado ridiculous? Yes. Is rejecting a brand because of the obnoxious image it purposefully conveys ridiculous? No.

    A keen example of this is seen in the rise of video games and the perception of who plays video games. For many folks, if you identify one of your main hobbies as video or computer games, there's is an instant placing of you into a schema of who plays video games and what their lives are like - socially isolated and addicted. Yet when you broaden the scope of video games to include things like Farmville or anything like that, it appears that video games have a broad appeal across every spectrum and stripe of society and in fact the bare essence is that humans like games, period. The medium has changed and early adopters of media in that medium set the tone, yet society as a whole has adopted them as one of many forms of entertainment for all to enjoy.

    Then when you dig a little deeper you realize that as time has progressed, video games have leveraged the possibility of connecting with other people via the internet to play together into flourishing social communities. And in fact new entries into video game media are often time fostered as community improvement projects for the specific games. Not only do video games have the potential to unite folks of all walks together due to the infrastructure and connectivity advantages, they also can foster new ventures in creativity and cooperation.

    And now, at the stage we're at with video game development, we have entire conventions like Penny Arcade Expo which is dedicated to all things gaming that attracts tens of thousands of attendees each year and generates significant economic activity.

    But there will always be a contingent of people that place video games in the negative context formed around the time of their first stab into the greater consciousness of society and who are unwilling to adjust their schema to the changing reality around them. Again, I invoke Principal Skinner.


    The social interactive Video game brings a different kind of social interaction, faceless, you have heard the term keyboard warrior etc. Good and bad, cyber bullying another. Now take that same group and put them physically together and they are a much different personality group versus the behind the monitor personality.

    I see evolution to the degree we don't go to games, we have a casket or room or something where we are an avatar and virtually there at some point and charged for access, the rich and famous will be able to attend games physically but normal people won't be able to afford it. That goes for multiple forms of entertainment, think of the movie Avatar but on a society level, not being transported into a real body but that may happen also but to a environment as a character of some sort and being able to physically interact.

    You could argue that homes and apartments will go away and that we will have a form of chamber we get in and out of where we rest and are in a huge warehouse of sorts, pay to procreate and have to be selected. They are already doing genetic mutation and selection. Same goes for the forth coming anti ageing pill or whatever they say they have developed to a point, money will get them as well, that is something that the general public won't be able to afford. If 600 dollars for a epi pen sounds high what do you think a regression or anti aging drug is going to cost.

    All you have to do is look back at your life and really see how fast things have changed, when I was in Junior High school it was Pong and Atari and or Sega Genesis. Look where we are now and that's been only 40 or so years, the evolution of cars from hulking metal basic models that you drove from point A to B and hoped the radio being just AM then worked to what we have now.

    Many will see as they get older the technology age is flying still at warp speed, what you thought you knew becomes old stuff very fast and it keeps diverging and diversifying faster then anyone could learn it as a whole. IBM punch card computer was the first computer I operated in 1974, Microfilm was used a lot for information storage. Again look at things now.

    We like to be in a comfort zone with our surroundings with things we trust and know, delving into the unknown as a career, curiosity, knowledge or a challenge. The problem as you get older is the things around you change faster and faster and you eventually have a comfort zone that continues to shrink, skills taught are no longer relevant because they are inclusive in the new technology, you become very specialized in what you do in a field.

    The younger people are taught how to operate and use the new technology that was built by what they see as old information since they don't have to know it, just how to use it and operate the troubleshoot procedures etc. They work on ideas that have been made available by the development of the tools they have now.

    Take hand writing cursive, many schools are not teaching it anymore because everyone keyboards and prints or emails etc information. My and past generations had to know how, that's how we communicated in writing, letters, reports, etc.

    The bigger issue is as you get older the world around you is eroding, pollution, lack of space, place that are pristine, everywhere is more crowded people are in a hurry to get everything done fast and get someplace fast. We're really running a big race all day and have less down time then ever before. That's the change a lot of us see getting older.

    The advances are wonderful in many aspects, but you don't really see the cost until you can look back a bit. Wondering what it's going to cost to keep going forward at this pace.

    We need to focus on repercussions as well as the benefits of things more. Not just profit and loss. But social and world impact and what will be lost there as well.
    Last edited by chris98251 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:Dat millenial-bashing doe.


    I won't bash millennials on this topic, but the comparison is a good one.

    The NFL, like Harley Davidson has to figure out a way to appeal to a generation that has zero regard for;

    - establishment
    - tradition
    - reverence for what their dads loved

    The NFL also has to figure out how to get millennials to watch and become engaged in a 3-4 hour game on cable, when most of them only stream, and don't have that type of attention span, especially for a sport they're apathetic about.

    But this is not just the NFL, all pro sports are having this problem. Hell, baseball's been trying to figure it our for over a decade, and not succeeding.

    Bottom line though, the NFL isn't going anywhere anytime soon. It just won't ever hit the popularity heights it's achieved over the past 10-15 years, and it'll continue to evolve (or devolve for some of us).


    The last point with regard to reverence for what their dads loved is a dead ringer on Harley and perfect example of why the connection broke down between generations:

    1. Returning GIs buy Harleys as a utilitarian transportation vehicle

    2. They settled down, kept the bike as a hobby to work on.

    3. Many of those who didn't settle down go on to form the nascent motorcycle gangs and clubs and build a life around being an outcast, a rebel.

    4.Media of all stripes picks up on this under current prevailing and blow it up with mutliple media entries lionizing the rebel biker outlaw. Over the course of 2 decades, From the The Wild One to Fonzi you see this image evolve into a somewhat watered down 'cool guy who gives no damns' at the exact point where Boomers are now leaving college and entering the work force. This outlaw biker image is aspirational despite being tied to the reality of settling down.

    5. 1980, Boomers have families and disposable income. Why not a motorcycle? Especially to offset the existential compromises made by providing for a family. And pops rode a Harley, its a natural fit.

    6. 1996, Boomer's kids are seeing how Dad and his buddies engage in performative toughness while having a pleasant materially comfortable upbringing absent any of the inflection points that would breed a counterculture. It doesn't reconcile and the contrivance is recognized - the impetus for my grandfather getting a bike wasn't to be cool, it was a cheap way to get to work when didn't have kids. But my Dad thought it was cool that Grandpa rode a Harley because Grandpa was cool and bikers were cool. I don't think my dad has ever been cool and a motorcycle wouldn't tick that box. The original impetus that made it cool simply wasn't there by the time my father's generation adopted it en masse.

    7. 2000s-Current
    The Harley Brand continues to calcify into being a lifestyle brand which many younger people just don't understand or get because Easy Rider is a historical entry to be deconstructed and analyzed, not a roadmap to thumbing your nose at the looming responsibilities as an adult.
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  • You don't know bad ass till you have seen 200 Hells Angels or more on Choppers in formation going down a California Speedway in the late 60's and early 70's. Many Vietnam Vets. The Bike was cool looking extender forks like 8 feet out and all, looked uncomfortable as hell to ride. That's the image many wanted to have. Now you have the new Harleys that are lounge chairs comparably, and many of the riders are professionals.

    You still have your Bike clubs but it a whole lot different then back then when it made Harley a household name.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    kobebryant wrote:I've definitely come to enjoy the NBA much more than the NFL over the past few years, which I never thought would be the case. It seems like NFL ownership keeps getting in its own way and stepping in it, and almost seems to work on the premise that their fan base is dumb and/or uneducated.


    Same reason I like soccer..........faster games, less interruptions, less confusing and frustration over the rules and reffing.

    I love my Hawks, so I'm always into our games. But I've totally stopped being a football junkie making sure I'm home for SNF, MNF and now TNF. Unless I have a vested interest, NFL games are a slog to sit through.


    That is a great description, and exactly how I feel about games that aren't the Seahawks or a marquee matchup.

    Whereas I can turn on a random weeknight NBA game with minimal implications and be thoroughly entertained by the flow of action and the athleticism.

    From Junior Seau to Ryan Shazier I'm also having a harder time reconciling what these guys are doing to their bodies and still enjoying it.
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  • Chris, thank you a million times for a more thoughtful and speculative and hypothetical post. I do appreciate it even though I can come across as a jerk sometimes.
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  • chris98251 wrote:You don't know bad ass till you have seen 200 Hells Angels or more on Choppers in formation going down a California Speedway in the late 60's and early 70's. Many Vietnam Vets. The Bike was cool looking extender forks like 8 feet out and all, looked uncomfortable as hell to ride. That's the image many wanted to have. Now you have the new Harleys that are lounge chairs comparably, and many of the riders are professionals.

    You still have your Bike clubs but it a whole lot different then back then when it made Harley a household name.


    Oh yah, i forgot to integrate that as well - vietnam vets returning and either purposefully or unpurposefully falling into gangs or just the motorcycle lifestyle. Good catch.
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  • mikeak wrote:All the NFL has to do is sit back and see what MLB does to adjust

    The MLB is in way more trouble. The game has no action and if you look at the phone the wrong 10 seconds you miss the homer. At least in football you know when the ball is being snapped and you can look up...

    The NFL has done a lot. All the rule changes that people complain about is to speed up the game and see more scoring. Moving the ball in chunks. It is IMHO why even a good Seahawks season two years ago was deemed as a really bad season by people. It simply wasn’t “fun” to watch... it was nothing like the fast paced ball moving offenses that even when they lead to a punt are fun to watch in between.


    So this ties back to us personally and specifically to football and I want to address it because it's a good inflection point on a dichotomy of expectations.

    During the 2016 season I remember thinking and feeling it was materially different than previous. It was disheartening because it didn't feel like there had been so much turnover and change to seemingly explain the turgidness of the team. To me it wasn't personally awful because I started trying to dissect it from a very dispassionate place but it just didn't feel like similar.

    There was of course the chorus of folks saying one of a few things: "A win is a win" "You're spoiled by recent success" "This is exactly what a PC team is like".

    But the fundamental question is what constitutes fun in an NFL football game and while I respect the idea that a 6-6 tie with multiple missed field goals is entertaining in its own way, it also reflects a certain loss of competency that was firmly in our grasp even a season or two prior.

    And to me, it's not about scoring per se, it's more about efficiency of play and stringing together mutliple successes big and small on both sides of the ball. On offense that obviously leads to more scoring but with the drought of turnovers on defense we just saw less 'good' or 'fun' or 'engaging' things on defense...simultaneously with the offense caving in.

    The 2017 season, I was rooting for small bits of amazing and at the very least RW and ADB connected on that front much to Arian's chagrin.
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  • mrt144 wrote:
    And to me, it's not about scoring per se, it's more about efficiency of play and stringing together mutliple successes big and small on both sides of the ball. On offense that obviously leads to more scoring but with the drought of turnovers on defense we just saw less 'good' or 'fun' or 'engaging' things on defense...simultaneously with the offense caving in. .


    Hard to achieve with 20 stoppages per half with all the challenges, reviews and penalties.

    Which IMO is by far the biggest reason NFL games have gone from fun to a slogfest of stoppages sucking out all the fun and continuity. Maybe that's progress that now they're getting the calls right?

    Idk, that's up for debate. But one thing is not debatable, it's made the game less fun to watch, and far more frustrating.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    mrt144 wrote:
    And to me, it's not about scoring per se, it's more about efficiency of play and stringing together mutliple successes big and small on both sides of the ball. On offense that obviously leads to more scoring but with the drought of turnovers on defense we just saw less 'good' or 'fun' or 'engaging' things on defense...simultaneously with the offense caving in. .


    Hard to achieve with 20 stoppages per half with all the challenges, reviews and penalties.

    Which IMO is by far the biggest reason NFL games have gone from fun to a slogfest of stoppages sucking out all the fun and continuity. Maybe that's progress that now they're getting the calls right?

    Idk, that's up for debate. But one thing is not debatable, it's made the game less fun to watch, and far more frustrating.


    With respect to stoppages and replays, part of me really wonders if part of the answer is...wait for it...technology and technology operators that can make the calls from a better vantage point in near real time. This actually flows upward to a larger question that is pervading all sports - how much do you want to lean on technology to get the most accuracy out of a situation and at what cost, in all its forms?

    The initial impetus for relying on technology as a tool was to remedy obvious wrongs. But much like how a hammer only sees the world in terms of nails and not nails, the revelation that there's a lot of stuff going on simultaneously under the purview of the rules that could be reviewed, has now made it seem like there is an imperative to put EVERYTHING under that microscope and right EVERY wrong on any given play. Missed holding penalties, fractional false starts, etc etc.

    Edit: I wonder if there's a market for a courtroom show like the People'sCourt where two people just argue about specific sports calls and present their case to a now retired Ed Hochuli.

    Even worse, technology hasn't abetted refs who will still stick with an obvious wrong call despite their ability to lean on it to better inform them. By design of how technology is integrated into the ruleset and the verbiage surrounding it's use, there are still marginal errors made on the same stuff that was always a borderline call but now with a way wider base of possible infractions and wrong calls to look at.

    In no small way, the deference to technology to capture everything has set up the problem of expecting near perfect judgment on nearly everything because it's all captured. By way of example, if aliens had the names and location of every human on earth and the myriad rules and laws we abide by, they still wouldn't know a lick about how humans are in sticking to their purported morals or laws. Having a complete picture in front of you doesn't in itself lend context to the picture.

    This leads to a broader question that might be worth its own post - are the current rules of the NFL compatible with trying to ensure near perfect accuracy on enforcement of the rules via technology? Or even more broadly, what amount of inaccuracy and murkiness are fans willing to tolerate in their games?
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  • I don't think it's the technology part, I think it's the part where the league wants the refs to make too many subjective calls pertaining to new rules, or changes rules.

    Instant replay was invented so that Vinnie Testeverde's head would no longer be mistaken for the football. Now the majority of challenges are not "was his foot out of bounds?"...........instead it's subjective calls like "was that a catch? Idk, what's a catch anyway, here are some new confusing rules! Was that pass interference? idk, what's pass interference? Did he have possession? Idk, what's possession mean anymore?"

    Now it's gonna get worse with the new head down rule. Was his head down? Was that targeting? Again, more and more subjective rules to be interpreted by 65 year old dudes who haven't been able to keep up with the speed of the game since the 80's........or some faceless old guy back east.
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  • Forgot about the thread

    I love watching NBA. The last few minutes in the NBA has become unwatchable. There are also issues introduced with replay. Example

    Defender gets the ball from the player but it is really hard to say did he hit the hand of the offensive player or get the ball cleanly. Referee says - I think he got the ball but either way ball went out of bounds so I give the ball to the offensive team and all is good.

    Now hold on - it was really close - who did the ball touch last? Ok lets review. Turns out the defender hit the hand of the offensive player so when the ball went out of bounds the ball now belongs to defender.

    There is no option at this stage to give the ball to the offensive player for the foul that occurred. What should have been called on the court should have been a double call really. One that showed - I think he got all ball so offense keeps ball, but if I am wrong then it is a foul

    This is an example of technology and rules not working well together

    In NFL we now sit there and wait as they play it over and over and over. They zoom in, they look at angles

    My solution is actually quite simple. The ref gets to watch it TWICE, TWO different angles - ONCE per. There is no slowmotion, there is no zoom - there is nothing else that they get to use. They basically get a second look at it from the perspective they saw it the first time. If they can't reverse we stick with the call as decided on the field.

    Getting it 95% correct and correct in spirit and sticking with judgment calls and going quickly is way more important than figuring out if there were two straws of grass between the foot and the line or not. We got to accept that being right in the moment is fine and keep the game going
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  • Fantastic OP that did a very good job of being even-handed and laying out the factors in a way that felt unbiased and fair (to this poster) to both the younger and older fan bases. Also used "allude" correctly instead of "elude" which on the internet is a real sighting-of-a-unicorn moment.

    One comment I would make is that messing with your brand is an extremely dicey proposition. Your Harley Davidson and NFLs of the world should have a bias towards fewer, rather than more, changes. Over time, iconic brands become a marketing tool all on their own. A selling point of a Harley Davidson is that it carries that name and is easily identifiable. In a lot of respects, the very resistance to change becomes a selling point. It's not something many companies can pull off, but if you have been pulling it off, you stray too far from it at your own peril. I believe you can do things around the fringes to pull in new customer bases but the instant you dilute your brand you have weakened the very thing that none of your competitors could ever touch. A Harley Davidson is a loud, distinctive motorcycle that resists aerodynamics in favor of style. I've never owned nor wanted to own a Harley but even I would puke my guts up if I ever saw something aerodynamic or silent that had a Harley badge on it.

    It's why the Porsches and BMWs of the world still have very recognizable models that change very little. A 9-11 is easily identifiable after decades, ditto a BMW sedan.

    So that's my first point. The NFL and Harley should be very, very resistant to change by default. There are many industries and companies that can and should put all avenues of evolution on the table, but I don't feel the NFL is one of those. The NFL and Harley don't resist change out of some quixotic desire to put existing customers above new customers. They resist it because if they dilute their brand they immediately lose their iconic status which is one of the things that many companies never ever achieve. It would be *especially* misguided IMO to dilute their brand one iota in seek of younger viewership precisely because younger viewership has so many options. The best chance for the NFL to retain the younger audience is for that younger audience to have been raised in the tradition of viewing, for the tribal mentality to have been cultivated and the brand emphasized. If the NFL starts waving its hands for attention it is just one more entertainment brand waving its hands for attention and that seems to me to be the quickest way to lose the younger audience.

    My second point is, for some sports such as football and boxing the viciousness is part of the attraction. The brutal hits of yesteryear got fans leaping out of their seats. As we learned more about the effects of such hits on players, it took some of the fun out those hits for many, and in response to that the NFL has moved towards legislating them out of the game. This isn't a case of where the newer, less-violent game will be just as popular. This is a case of where the newer game will be as popular as it can be, but will just never be the same without the violence. Younger fans will think this is an improved product, and it is because in today's environment it seems we just can't have the same game, but it will never be as good as it was before the medical science came to forefront. The absolute best most fun version of the NFL was watching players be decapitated without worrying about their health. That ship has sailed permanently.

    Here again, the NFL didn't resist toning down the violence out of some quixotic devotion to status quo. They resisted toning down the violence because the violence was a significant reason people watched the game over other sports. A younger generation may believe making it Rugby would make it better, but once more the more the NFL resembles other sports and not itself the quicker the channel gets changed. With the added negative that the older fan base is lost as well.
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  • It’s called “legacy”, just like a print magazine desperately hold on to print revenue when the audiences were switching to a different median.

    Or GM rather destroy or crush all EV1s just to protect their gas engined cars.

    So on and so forth.


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  • hawk45 wrote:Fantastic OP that did a very good job of being even-handed and laying out the factors in a way that felt unbiased and fair (to this poster) to both the younger and older fan bases. Also used "allude" correctly instead of "elude" which on the internet is a real sighting-of-a-unicorn moment.

    One comment I would make is that messing with your brand is an extremely dicey proposition. Your Harley Davidson and NFLs of the world should have a bias towards fewer, rather than more, changes. Over time, iconic brands become a marketing tool all on their own. A selling point of a Harley Davidson is that it carries that name and is easily identifiable. In a lot of respects, the very resistance to change becomes a selling point. It's not something many companies can pull off, but if you have been pulling it off, you stray too far from it at your own peril. I believe you can do things around the fringes to pull in new customer bases but the instant you dilute your brand you have weakened the very thing that none of your competitors could ever touch. A Harley Davidson is a loud, distinctive motorcycle that resists aerodynamics in favor of style. I've never owned nor wanted to own a Harley but even I would puke my guts up if I ever saw something aerodynamic or silent that had a Harley badge on it.

    It's why the Porsches and BMWs of the world still have very recognizable models that change very little. A 9-11 is easily identifiable after decades, ditto a BMW sedan.

    So that's my first point. The NFL and Harley should be very, very resistant to change by default. There are many industries and companies that can and should put all avenues of evolution on the table, but I don't feel the NFL is one of those. The NFL and Harley don't resist change out of some quixotic desire to put existing customers above new customers. They resist it because if they dilute their brand they immediately lose their iconic status which is one of the things that many companies never ever achieve. It would be *especially* misguided IMO to dilute their brand one iota in seek of younger viewership precisely because younger viewership has so many options. The best chance for the NFL to retain the younger audience is for that younger audience to have been raised in the tradition of viewing, for the tribal mentality to have been cultivated and the brand emphasized. If the NFL starts waving its hands for attention it is just one more entertainment brand waving its hands for attention and that seems to me to be the quickest way to lose the younger audience.


    My second point is, for some sports such as football and boxing the viciousness is part of the attraction. The brutal hits of yesteryear got fans leaping out of their seats. As we learned more about the effects of such hits on players, it took some of the fun out those hits for many, and in response to that the NFL has moved towards legislating them out of the game. This isn't a case of where the newer, less-violent game will be just as popular. This is a case of where the newer game will be as popular as it can be, but will just never be the same without the violence. Younger fans will think this is an improved product, and it is because in today's environment it seems we just can't have the same game, but it will never be as good as it was before the medical science came to forefront. The absolute best most fun version of the NFL was watching players be decapitated without worrying about their health. That ship has sailed permanently.

    Here again, the NFL didn't resist toning down the violence out of some quixotic devotion to status quo. They resisted toning down the violence because the violence was a significant reason people watched the game over other sports. A younger generation may believe making it Rugby would make it better, but once more the more the NFL resembles other sports and not itself the quicker the channel gets changed. With the added negative that the older fan base is lost as well.


    Thanks for the reply and insight!

    The highlighted is think this is where the NFL is potentially setting itself up for a stumble - the reports on the ground make it seem like that foundational upbringing into the tribe so to speak is being chipped away at. Any high school should be able to churn out 30-50 young football fans for life and yet some areas are dropping football as a sport altogether.

    I think the comparison to boxing is interesting but FWIW I can digest boxing and the punishment the participants take because at this point in time boxing is a very self selected sport with the downsides very well known. If 30 dudes in the world want to claim they're the greatest boxer in the world, let em have at it. It's too bad that the way prize fighting is organized leads to lot of tomato cans padding the records of stars to set up huge payday fights down the road.
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  • Boxing or the Military, selecting to be a participant in either you know going in their may be ramifications, NFL is no different.
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  • chris98251 wrote:Boxing or the Military, selecting to be a participant in either you know going in their may be ramifications, NFL is no different.


    At this point in time - sure. Back in the 80s, not nearly as much with football, and precisely in the timeframe that many long time fans consider a golden era. I think hawk45 is right on here - it was easier to revel in it before a full awareness of the toll was out there. I think Junior Seau's suicide is a particularly damning moment for the NFL, all factors considered.

    It's also why there is a diminishing participation among young players into football and why boxing is a once in a while spectacle. The military, FWIW, seems to be doing a better job of reducing combat fatalities even if post combat care is abysmal at times - hell even basic visits are a pain in the butt.

    This elicits another question though which is, what exactly can the NFL do to straddle the line between "this is inherently dangerous and that's why its exciting" and "but not so dangerous that your little Jaden or Brayden or Kayden shouldn't play it". Almost like riding ATVs... ;)
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  • mrt144 wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Boxing or the Military, selecting to be a participant in either you know going in their may be ramifications, NFL is no different.


    At this point in time - sure. Back in the 80s, not nearly as much with football, and precisely in the timeframe that many long time fans consider a golden era. I think hawk45 is right on here - it was easier to revel in it before a full awareness of the toll was out there. I think Junior Seau's suicide is a particularly damning moment for the NFL, all factors considered.

    It's also why there is a diminishing participation among young players into football and why boxing is a once in a while spectacle. The military, FWIW, seems to be doing a better job of reducing combat fatalities even if post combat care is abysmal at times - hell even basic visits are a pain in the butt.

    This elicits another question though which is, what exactly can the NFL do to straddle the line between "this is inherently dangerous and that's why its exciting" and "but not so dangerous that your little Jaden or Brayden or Kayden shouldn't play it". Almost like riding ATVs... ;)


    I disagree, if you played at all you know you can get thumped,get your hand stepped on, get your bell rung etc, the problem was that nobody told anyone when they were hurt becasue you would be looked upon as a wimp by your own team and would not want to give the other team the satisfaction of knowing they hurt you to a point where you should ask to be taken out. Cheap shots, going for the knees were considered a forbidden aspect still, those that crossed the line had better have their head on a swivle becasue you were then a target. Knee injuries were the one thing that were forgiven, you were taken out usually running, catching or in some aspect playing and your body broke down on you, you didn't mentally quit. I mean players played with casts for broken arms and hands all the time.

    The Manly man played Football, or Hockey, don't want to leave that out. It was a mans man sport and only the toughest SOB's played, Baseball and Basketball were the games for those who didn't want contact, or as we later defined to be part of a collision sport.

    The players going into the College and Pro Game have enough interaction with former players to know the toll taken on them, yet the era of those players never complained either,Boys/ Men don't cry or complain. Remember those phrases, or Man up etc.

    Think of Hockey if they made crashing the boards on a player illegal, they are almost doing that with the NFL trying to rid out Kickoffs and now the helmet contact rule. As I said in another trhead, Spearing falls under the cheap shot aspect in my book, incidental contact should be left alone.
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  • Oh yeah, I remember why I quit this board.
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