Sherman So Far

5_Golden_Rings

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Uncle Si":3sutxu37 said:
Popeyejones":3sutxu37 said:
Uncle Si":3sutxu37 said:
Popeyejones":3sutxu37 said:
Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.


This has always been the debate with Sherman.

Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.

Oh, I'm with you.

I used to get a ton of crap here for saying I thought Pat Peterson was better than Sherman even though his stats were worse because what Peterson was asked to do was much harder than what Sherman is asked to do.

That's a "who's the best of the best?" debate, though.

Sherman doesn't move around, but he also controls his side of the field. And quite frankly, if you have a player that can take a side of the field away entirely and the other side gets picked on, that's not an argument against the controlled side of the field, it's an argument against the disastrous play on the other side.

Having a guy like Sherman locking down one side of the field exposes the other side for who they are.


What I'm saying is on a very poor defense like the 9ers have, is he having that much of a good impact? How many times was a CB with half the physicality, technical skill and experience find himself matched up with the Packers best WR last night while Sherman got the 3rd/4th WR because he was on his side?

Do you think the 9ers wouldve been better last night if Adams (Packers clear #1) was matched up with Sherman?

Folks are pointing to stats that basically say Sherman isnt getting challenged. But the most important stat is the overall play of the defense, of which it's difficult to say he's helping.
Sherman is more or less eliminating one side of the field. As of right now, REPEATEDLY the other side is getting man handled. Next season, however, assuming Sherman remains and remains at about his at least above average play, if he is paired with someone else who is an upgrade over what is presently there, then he will be quite worth the investment.

It's a rebuild. Adding one good player ins't going to fix the team. Adding NO good players is definitely not going to fix the team.
 

RolandDeschain

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Popeyejones":wak11ctg said:
Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.
While Sherman remains a Niner, there will be many Seahawks fans who want to wish him ill or unnecessarily blame team woes on him, unfortunately.
 

Popeyejones

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Uncle Si":1ax9glgy said:
Popeyejones":1ax9glgy said:
Uncle Si":1ax9glgy said:
Popeyejones":1ax9glgy said:
Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.


This has always been the debate with Sherman.

Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.

Oh, I'm with you.

I used to get a ton of crap here for saying I thought Pat Peterson was better than Sherman even though his stats were worse because what Peterson was asked to do was much harder than what Sherman is asked to do.

That's a "who's the best of the best?" debate, though.

Sherman doesn't move around, but he also controls his side of the field. And quite frankly, if you have a player that can take a side of the field away entirely and the other side gets picked on, that's not an argument against the controlled side of the field, it's an argument against the disastrous play on the other side.

Having a guy like Sherman locking down one side of the field exposes the other side for who they are.


What I'm saying is on a very poor defense like the 9ers have, is he having that much of a good impact? How many times was a CB with half the physicality, technical skill and experience find himself matched up with the Packers best WR last night while Sherman got the 3rd/4th WR because he was on his side?

Do you think the 9ers wouldve been better last night if Adams (Packers clear #1) was matched up with Sherman?

Folks are pointing to stats that basically say Sherman isnt getting challenged. But the most important stat is the overall play of the defense, of which it's difficult to say he's helping.

You're asking two different questions.

One question is if Sherman would be an overall better player if he could play at the same level while shadowing the opponent's #1 receiver. The answer to that question is obvious, and is yes.

The other question is if the 49ers defense would overall be better if they had a less talented player than Sherman playing cornerback. The answer to that question is obvious, and is no.

To put it back into Seahawks terms, Shaquill Griffin doesn't shadow and is the Seahawks best cornerback. What you're arguing is that the Seahwks would have a better defense if they benched Shaquill Griffin because he's good at his job.
 

evergreen

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What if they had Patrick Peterson on the other side?
 

toffee

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All I know is that LOB v2 is performing at high level without Sherm, the current young v2 does not facing age related injury risk and age related erosion of skill, or weekly heck daily drama. So, I am good with what we got.
 

Uncle Si

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Popeyejones":2ra4c2e2 said:
Uncle Si":2ra4c2e2 said:
Popeyejones":2ra4c2e2 said:
Uncle Si":2ra4c2e2 said:
This has always been the debate with Sherman.

Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.

Oh, I'm with you.

I used to get a ton of crap here for saying I thought Pat Peterson was better than Sherman even though his stats were worse because what Peterson was asked to do was much harder than what Sherman is asked to do.

That's a "who's the best of the best?" debate, though.

Sherman doesn't move around, but he also controls his side of the field. And quite frankly, if you have a player that can take a side of the field away entirely and the other side gets picked on, that's not an argument against the controlled side of the field, it's an argument against the disastrous play on the other side.

Having a guy like Sherman locking down one side of the field exposes the other side for who they are.


What I'm saying is on a very poor defense like the 9ers have, is he having that much of a good impact? How many times was a CB with half the physicality, technical skill and experience find himself matched up with the Packers best WR last night while Sherman got the 3rd/4th WR because he was on his side?

Do you think the 9ers wouldve been better last night if Adams (Packers clear #1) was matched up with Sherman?

Folks are pointing to stats that basically say Sherman isnt getting challenged. But the most important stat is the overall play of the defense, of which it's difficult to say he's helping.

You're asking two different questions.

One question is if Sherman would be an overall better player if he could play at the same level while shadowing the opponent's #1 receiver. The answer to that question is obvious, and is yes.

The other question is if the 49ers defense would overall be better if they had a less talented player than Sherman playing cornerback. The answer to that question is obvious, and is no.

To put it back into Seahawks terms, Shaquill Griffin doesn't shadow and is the Seahawks best cornerback. What you're arguing is that the Seahwks would have a better defense if they benched Shaquill Griffin because he's good at his job.

I m asking one question:

The 9ers D sucks. Sherman is sitting on one side of the field. Noone is throwing at him because they dont have to. So his stats are inflated while the rest of the defense struggles. Shaquill Griffin is not Richard Sherman, and noone on here is pretending he is. He's also getting thrown at. So the comparisons are not applicable.

I know that if Sherman shadowed the other team's best receiver his stats would go down, alot.

The question is whether that would benefit the 9ers anyways.
 

Popeyejones

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Uncle Si":20c5a3l5 said:
I m asking one question:

The 9ers D sucks. Sherman is sitting on one side of the field. Noone is throwing at him because they dont have to. So his stats are inflated while the rest of the defense struggles. Shaquill Griffin is not Richard Sherman, and noone on here is pretending he is. He's also getting thrown at. So the comparisons are not applicable.

I know that if Sherman shadowed the other team's best receiver his stats would go down, alot.

The question is whether that would benefit the 9ers anyways.

Ah okay, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

And yeah, there's no way to really know.

FWIW though I don't see that probably ever happening because most teams don't have their cornerbacks shadow receivers, and primarily zone teams never really do, as there's not really any point when you're running zone.

Instead, everyone puts their best CB at LCB because most QBs are right handed and it's easier for right handed QBs to throw to the right side rather than across their bodies to their left side.

This why the Hawks moved Griffin from exclusively playing RCB last year when they had Sherman to exclusively playing LCB this year now that he's their best CB.

Likewise, save for the very few and elite primarily man-cover corners who may shadow a team's #1, it's just generally believed that you don't want to have someone inverting what they're doing all the time. It's the exact same logic that keeps teams from inverting their right and left offensive tackles from game to game as based on where their opponent's best pass rusher primarily lines up.



Sorry for the misunderstanding in what you were saying.



Also, slightly OT, but the 9ers defense doesn't totally suck to the degree that it looks on the surface. They're middle of the pack in yards per game and yards per play, which are the stats that stay stable.

They look awful though because they're 4th worst in points per game given up. In the long run it's pretty weird for a defense to be average in yards per game and yards per play but to be way towards the bottom in points.

You can explain it though using the stats that tend to be unstable over time: the 9ers are last in the league in takeaways (they have the least takeaways), and second to last in the league in giveaways (they have the second most giveaways), and as a result have the worst turnover margin in the NFL. That means that the likely reason they're giving more points than their other defensive stats would suggest is that their defense is playing on atyipically shorter fields (2nd in the league in giveaways) and also not getting turnover luck on defense.

Not even taking health into consideration, I think we're taking what's probably a below average defense (think around 20-22 or so) that due to small sample sizes and random variance looks like a 28-32 defense.

EDIT: Yeah, just checked. They're 32nd in the NFL for average starting field position on defense.
 

5_Golden_Rings

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Say what you want, but even Aaron Rodgers didn't test him.

Yeah, half of that is how bad the guy on the other side is. But half of it is because Sherman is still sneaky good.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/p ... 2a0a240613

"Veteran cornerback Richard Sherman again was avoided for most of the night, allowing just one catch for 10 yards. Coming into the game, Sherman sported some eye-popping stats, as he allowed just one reception every 146 coverage snaps and a minuscule 0.12 yards per cover snap through Week 5. These numbers are unlikely to hold up over the course of the season, but he’s been the definition of a shutdown corner in 2018."



He's at least in the middle of the pack still. I'd argue is better than average at minimum. But the defensive backfield is like the OL: it only takes one weak link in the chain to break. (sidenote: maybe THAT was the Ace in the Hole Sherman had when he negotiated his own contract... maybe he knew the other cbs were so bad no one would test him)
 

Uncle Si

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Again.. its hard to determine how good sherman is in that context.

Rodgers threw for 425 yards and 2 TDs on 46 pass attempts without once throwing at sherman?

Its not a question of avoiding sherman. Its just picking the least resistance.

Im sure hes middle of the pack atleast. Just think the stats being used here regarding his impact only tell half the story.
 

poly1274

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Can someone check Sherman's stats? I read somewhere or heard from somewhere that when he's being targeted, he gives up a bunch of yards. Only one I remember was Diggs.
 

Sox-n-Hawks

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5_Golden_Rings":253sz599 said:
Say what you want, but even Aaron Rodgers didn't test him.

Yeah, half of that is how bad the guy on the other side is. But half of it is because Sherman is still sneaky good.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/p ... 2a0a240613

"Veteran cornerback Richard Sherman again was avoided for most of the night, allowing just one catch for 10 yards. Coming into the game, Sherman sported some eye-popping stats, as he allowed just one reception every 146 coverage snaps and a minuscule 0.12 yards per cover snap through Week 5. These numbers are unlikely to hold up over the course of the season, but he’s been the definition of a shutdown corner in 2018."



He's at least in the middle of the pack still. I'd argue is better than average at minimum. But the defensive backfield is like the OL: it only takes one weak link in the chain to break. (sidenote: maybe THAT was the Ace in the Hole Sherman had when he negotiated his own contract... maybe he knew the other cbs were so bad no one would test him)

Aaron Rodgers didn't have to test him, because the Whiners secondary sucks that bad. Hell, even the Bills were able to get a pick off of Rodgers this season.
 

Popeyejones

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poly1274":2sbf744v said:
Can someone check Sherman's stats? I read somewhere or heard from somewhere that when he's being targeted, he gives up a bunch of yards. Only one I remember was Diggs.


He has been targeted 10 times and given up 2 receptions for 26 yards.
 

SantaClaraHawk

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It's like Popeye said, he isn't targeted much when he is in games, but it is also true that he's not been in several games including today's.
 

Marvin49

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SantaClaraHawk":3ribfu2u said:
It's like Popeye said, he isn't targeted much when he is in games, but it is also true that he's not been in several games including today's.

He's missed 2.5 games, so he's played 4.5.
 

SantaClaraHawk

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We'll have to see beyond 4.5. People have avoided Sherm due to his record with the Seahawks, but with his recent injury plus his enhancements for playing, he will probably come back in not 100 percent, and be targeted.
 

Popeyejones

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SantaClaraHawk":7p1zk9l8 said:
People have avoided Sherm due to his record with the Seahawks

If that was the case why is he being targeted less on the 9ers than he ever was on the Seahawks?

As I recall his target rate on the Hawks increased every year from 2014 onward. 2014 was his lowest target rate year, and he's still lower than that with the 9ers this year.
 

Milehighhawk

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The answer is easy. Why take the stairs when there is an express elevator available?
 

BirdsCommaAngry

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Milehighhawk":gdwq59mv said:
The answer is easy. Why take the stairs when there is an express elevator available?

You get some exercise taking the stairs and temporarily increase your cognitive functioning. It's good for you.
 
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