Problem with NFL That You Dont See in Baseball

seahawksny · Oct 22, 2015

Last night -
Game 4 NLCS-
Called strike to end game. Batter thought it was high, and should have drawn walk, but he walks away and accepted it.
I thought the ball was high, and the ump had a delayed call. so I DID NOT like the call.
Cubs Manager Joe Maddon= also never mentioned anything about it, and accepted it.

All we hear in the NFL the last few years is the monday morning qb about how refs are so to speak "losing and winning games"

#1- they are human like umpires. they are supposed to make mistakes. its humanly impossible not to.
#2- you dont hear the Cubs or their fans saying they lost the game on that call.

To say Seattle won on the Fail mary or won on the non call against Detroit this year to me is such a turn off.

There is no guarantee that Detroit wins that game if the refs called a penalty.

The refs didnt know the rule? How can they know the rule with all of these technicalities? Making a football move.

If any of us are old enough- you will remember the concept or "non concept" of ground causing a fumble. If player hits ground, and ball falls out. Why should we be subject to a 15 minute review? the game is becoming unwatchable.

Baseball although probably needed, started instant replay, but not to the extent that football is taking it. Hopefully it doesnt get there. Refs make a decision and all you hear about is how they muffed the call and won or lost game for those teams. Games are not won on one call people. They just arent.

I love the Hawks- but its getting hard to watch these days.

seahawksny · Oct 22, 2015

I mention "making a football move" becuase its one of those ridiculous concepts that was unkown to everyone, refs included until last year.
It had nothing to do with the ball batted out by KJ at end of game. Just an FYI

ringless · Oct 22, 2015

Well there have been complaints about umpires in baseball before to be fair.

Chicago was also down by 5 runs at that point. While the other two plays you mentioned had a lot more on the line at that time. Interception vs touchdown.

Wins vs losses on those very calls.

Its an apples to oranges comparison. But thats just my opinion.

Sgt. Largent · Oct 22, 2015

That's because if this was the NFL, the Cub's owner would complain to the competition committee and next year called balls and strikes would be reviewable.

The NFL is so overwrought with "trying to get it right" that it's ran itself into the ground with too many complicated rules, replay, reviewable calls, coach's challenges...........all stemming from 1-2 controversial plays out of an entire season that now have to be integrated into the rules.

I'm all for getting stuff right, but with all these new rules and stoppages, the game's becoming excrutiatingly painful to watch.

seahawksny · Oct 22, 2015

Sgt. Largent":77h5npf0 said:
That's because if this was the NFL, the Cub's owner would complain to the competition committee and next year called balls and strikes would be reviewable.

The NFL is so overwrought with "trying to get it right" that it's ran itself into the ground with too many complicated rules, replay, reviewable calls, coach's challenges...........all stemming from 1-2 controversial plays out of an entire season that now have to be integrated into the rules.

I'm all for getting stuff right, but with all these new rules and stoppages, the game's becoming excrutiatingly painful to watch.

I agree 1000%
Can you imagine if they reviewed balls and strikes? That would be disaster. Unfortunately I wouldnt put it past them one day

seahawksny · Oct 22, 2015

ringless":11dhcoiw said:
Well there have been complaints about umpires in baseball before to be fair.

Chicago was also down by 5 runs at that point. While the other two plays you mentioned had a lot more on the line at that time. Interception vs touchdown.

Wins vs losses on those very calls.

Its an apples to oranges comparison. But thats just my opinion.

There have been complaints about umpires, yet to this day, we still know who Bill Leavy is.
10 years from now, nobody except Die hard Met fans will know that umps name.
And Im not so sold on how those calls in NFL determine win or loss.
if they happened in the 1st half or even the 3rd and early in 4th qtr, would they still be talking about it?
probably not. Because I think people in general dont remember what happens earlier in game.

Same thing can go for calls made by coaches. Everyone lynched Pete for the last call in SB.
Yet if he didnt gamble at end of 1st half and throw to end zone to Matthews, then we arent even in that spot to begin with at the end of game. Last play doesnt define the game is my point.

mikeak · Oct 22, 2015

Strikes vs Balls has been a hot topic with cameras installed to judge the umps. Still it remains a subjective call just like a PI call but you know every game it willbe called differently and be wrong multiple times.

To compare that to a correct / wrong call such as a catch, fumble, batted ball is like apes and oranges

Attyla the Hawk · Oct 22, 2015

In my mind, we're talking about apples and oranges.

In football, there isn't a substantive penalty for conduct. Players yell, scream and lobby for calls on virtually every play.

In baseball, as in soccer, there is a very strict and narrow allowance for showing up refs/umps. The NFL has a much less authoritative structure for referees than those sports. It's about the culture of the sport.

I would guarantee you, if NFL refs were allowed to eject players for openly arguing judgement calls (like lame throwing the flag gestures on every single incompletion in a game) -- you'd see a big change.

The reality is that the NFL supports riding the refs hard. I'm not sure that's not necessarily a bad thing either. Football is a much more intense sport where tempers run a lot hotter. I do think it's rather stupid on the NFL's part to have/allow outside critiques of referees (whether it's network consultants or Dean Blandino himself) second guessing calls almost in real time. It only feeds a perception that refs can't function competently. Even if they get the calls right a vast majority of the time.

The NFL does a very poor job of protecting the referees in this regard. And give them no real tools in game to police defiant player conduct. If refs were allowed to eject players for showing up the officials, as they are allowed in baseball and soccer, I expect that the climate would change dramatically. When the players on the field are allowed to be openly disdainful to the refs repeatedly -- that fosters the expectation that everyone (fans included) can act likewise. When the head of officials piles on too, it becomes a real s--show.

seahawksny · Oct 22, 2015

Attyla the Hawk":3g6ayjnm said:
In my mind, we're talking about apples and oranges.

In football, there isn't a substantive penalty for conduct. Players yell, scream and lobby for calls on virtually every play.

In baseball, as in soccer, there is a very strict and narrow allowance for showing up refs/umps. The NFL has a much less authoritative structure for referees than those sports. It's about the culture of the sport.

I would guarantee you, if NFL refs were allowed to eject players for openly arguing judgement calls (like lame throwing the flag gestures on every single incompletion in a game) -- you'd see a big change.

The reality is that the NFL supports riding the refs hard. I'm not sure that's not necessarily a bad thing either. Football is a much more intense sport where tempers run a lot hotter. I do think it's rather stupid on the NFL's part to have/allow outside critiques of referees (whether it's network consultants or Dean Blandino himself) second guessing calls almost in real time. It only feeds a perception that refs can't function competently. Even if they get the calls right a vast majority of the time.

The NFL does a very poor job of protecting the referees in this regard. And give them no real tools in game to police defiant player conduct. If refs were allowed to eject players for showing up the officials, as they are allowed in baseball and soccer, I expect that the climate would change dramatically. When the players on the field are allowed to be openly disdainful to the refs repeatedly -- that fosters the expectation that everyone (fans included) can act likewise. When the head of officials piles on too, it becomes a real s--show.

Very well said

Sgt. Largent · Oct 22, 2015

seahawksny":2kv573u0 said:
Sgt. Largent":2kv573u0 said:

That's because if this was the NFL, the Cub's owner would complain to the competition committee and next year called balls and strikes would be reviewable.

The NFL is so overwrought with "trying to get it right" that it's ran itself into the ground with too many complicated rules, replay, reviewable calls, coach's challenges...........all stemming from 1-2 controversial plays out of an entire season that now have to be integrated into the rules.

I'm all for getting stuff right, but with all these new rules and stoppages, the game's becoming excrutiatingly painful to watch.

Click to expand...

I agree 1000%
Can you imagine if they reviewed balls and strikes? That would be disaster. Unfortunately I wouldnt put it past them one day

Well, I watched the baseball game last night.

The Ump had already given Ramirez a borderline strike, and called it a ball before this controversial called 3rd strike. That's what good umps do, they keep mental track of borderline pitches so that it works out fair.

Sorry Cubs fans, but when you're down to your last out, and last strike? Take the bat off your shoulder.............it's not time to be trying to work the ump for a walk on close pitches.

It was close, which is why Ramirez should have been swinging.

Throwdown · Oct 22, 2015

People actually sit and watch baseball?

seahawksny · Oct 22, 2015

Throwdown":2ks8bur0 said:
People actually sit and watch baseball?

Its a great game-

Imagine if home runs were called back because batters left foot was too far out of batters box.
In fact- Just throw a flag on every play while they are at it.

Imagine if every questionable call the umps made was talked about for weeks in the media you want to kill yourself
Imagine if the players had to retire at 30 years old because of concussions.
imagine if players that cheat DIDNT have repercussions ( patriots dont)
Imagine if the managers didnt rely on headsets and you arent fined by trying to figure out signs from other team.

Thats enough for now.

Well- thats what happens in the NFL, and baseball for the most part doesn't do those things. - This is why I think Baseball is a better sport.

Im on this forum cause im a die hard Hawks fan- but the league they play in has become repulsive

bjornanderson21 · Oct 23, 2015

seahawksny":1pkfx5py said:
I mention "making a football move" becuase its one of those ridiculous concepts that was unkown to everyone, refs included until last year.
It had nothing to do with the ball batted out by KJ at end of game. Just an FYI

Ive known about "making a football move" for a few years, theyve brought it up in replays/commentaries before last year, it just wasn't very common.

The hitting the ball out of endzone by a defensive player was pretty much new to everyone though. Weird rule

seahawksny · Oct 23, 2015

bjornanderson21":3ayg4v29 said:
seahawksny":3ayg4v29 said:

I mention "making a football move" becuase its one of those ridiculous concepts that was unkown to everyone, refs included until last year.
It had nothing to do with the ball batted out by KJ at end of game. Just an FYI

Click to expand...

Ive known about "making a football move" for a few years, theyve brought it up in replays/commentaries before last year, it just wasn't very common.

The hitting the ball out of endzone by a defensive player was pretty much new to everyone though. Weird rule

Exactly. Game has become too technical

Sgt. Largent · Oct 23, 2015

Throwdown":1khc88om said:
People actually sit and watch baseball?

Regular season? Not really, boring.

But I LOVE playoff baseball, because it has what the regular season slog of 162 games doesn't have, urgency where every single pitch and play matters.

Plus this is the first time in a long time where every team in the playoffs save for maybe the Dodgers is easy to root for because it's been so long. No Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, etc.

kobebryant · Oct 23, 2015

Baseball is boring and I don't care to follow it, but just through osmosis as a sports fan I know the names of Joe West, C.B Bucknor, Jim Joyce and Don Denkinger. So let's not act like blown calls in baseball don't leave lasting impressions.

seahawksny · Oct 23, 2015

kobebryant":2j818rux said:
Baseball is boring and I don't care to follow it, but just through osmosis as a sports fan I know the names of Joe West, C.B Bucknor, Jim Joyce and Don Denkinger. So let's not act like blown calls in baseball don't leave lasting impressions.

Not acting like they don't exist.
Just saying they do better job of letting things go.

I personally as a fan do not give a crap about the fail mary. Do not give a crap about the batted ball out of the end zone.

Yet for some reason people can't seem to let it go.

To say Seattle should be *2-5 now is outright drivel in my opinion.

You play for 4qtrs. Not for one play in second half. Yet the media still play on the weak minded NFL fans that care and actually believe this crap.

kobebryant · Oct 23, 2015

seahawksny":3ap4n647 said:
kobebryant":3ap4n647 said:

Baseball is boring and I don't care to follow it, but just through osmosis as a sports fan I know the names of Joe West, C.B Bucknor, Jim Joyce and Don Denkinger. So let's not act like blown calls in baseball don't leave lasting impressions.

Click to expand...

Not acting like they don't exist.
Just saying they do better job of letting things go.

I personally as a fan do not give a crap about the fail mary. Do not give a crap about the batted ball out of the end zone.

Yet for some reason people can't seem to let it go.

To say Seattle should be *2-5 now is outright drivel in my opinion.

You play for 4qtrs. Not for one play in second half. Yet the media still play on the weak minded NFL fans that care and actually believe this crap.

Football is wagered on considerably more than baseball is. People are passionate about their cash, and have a harder time letting go when it directly impacts them.

Baseball fandom also seems to be a little more rational and calm than most sports, which ultimately is a good thing.

Ask college hoops fans about Teddy Valentine, Buffalo Sabres fans about Brett Hull, Seahawks fans about Bill Leavy or Mike Carey, or Irish soccer fans about Thierry Henry and you'll get a whole lot of passion.

Exittium · Oct 23, 2015

Well regardless, last nights game was a craptastic officiated one. The refs decided when to swallow their whistle, and every damn time we're down there we play the refs not SF.

Like those dudes made the replacement's a while back look amazing. Its aggravating for 1 thing, if it was us we would have been called for most those penalties that went uncalled for SF (multiple holdings.. there wasn't a replay that I didn't see it not happen. a few personal fouls etc etc)

In the end Seattle and Russ judging by his presser, understood they had to keep their foots on their throats, and outplay everyone including refs.

kearly · Oct 23, 2015

Chicago was down 8-3 in the game, and down 3-0 in the series. It's extremely unlikely the strike call would have made any difference in the grand scheme of things, which is why the Cubs just shrugged it off.

I would bet that it's only a matter of time before MLB goes to a tracer based strike zone, aka "robots calling strikes". Who knows, maybe in some very distant day computers might be used to make calls in NFL games too.

Problem with NFL That You Dont See in Baseball

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