Next Great

So after pondering about qb's. Who is the next Great qb's? My short list that I think can be the next Manning, Brady, or even Montana is.

Rodgers

Maybe,
Drew B (big maybe)
Russ W (don't kill me but big maybe)
Rothlesburger (how ever you spell his name. Huge maybe)


Don't know who else. Kind of stumped. Also not debating about Wilson he is a stud. Purely speaking about Manning and Brady level.

If Luck ever gets that first Lombardi, I think you will see him being pointed to as one of the greats. Too many have vested their reputation on him not to mention him as one of the greats of his era. To me the jury is still out, we will see.

Cam has some image repair to do, but he is young and if he can curtail the running, folks will remove the great athlete tag and maybe see him as a great. His stature would have been much higher if not for the past SB. He was on his way. He is young and could put up the numbers folks like to see from their "Greats".

Wilson, luck, and newton.

Maybe mariota and Jameis Winston if they can get their teams built up around them.

Brees & Big Ben are already HOFers, don't think there's much debate there. ARod probably has more years left in him than either of those guys but he's gotta play at a higher level than he did last year even though he's the already crowned GOAT. If RW & Cam just keep playing like they have they could be the next Brady/Manning. Luck's got a lot to prove IMO. Mariota & Winston even more so, obvs.

I'm gonna go with Bortles.

rlkats":389b1rsu said:

So after pondering about qb's. Who is the next Great qb's? My short list that I think can be the next Manning, Brady, or even Montana is.

Rodgers

Maybe,
Drew B (big maybe)
Russ W (don't kill me but big maybe)
Rothlesburger (how ever you spell his name. Huge maybe)


Don't know who else. Kind of stumped. Also not debating about Wilson he is a stud. Purely speaking about Manning and Brady level.

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The stumped part is because there are no great QBs coming in,the reasons are varied but one of them I believe is simple -soft and weak.Take it as you will and I'm not going into detail.The proof is there year after year.

A QB is rated in many different ways. People look at their TD-INT ratio, their wins, total yards, Pro Bowls and passer rating to determine if a QB is any good but when it comes to the best it mostly comes down to dominance and post-season success.

You need multiple MVPs and SB wins. Peyton Manning has 5 MVPs and 2 SBs, while Montana and Brady have 2 MVPs and 4 SBs.

Nobody comes close to those achievements among active QBs. Rodgers has 2 MVPs but only 1 ring, Newton has 1 MVP but no ring, Roethlisberger has 2 SB wins but no MVPs, same as Eli Manning, then we have Wilson, Flacco and Brees with 0 MVPs and 1 ring.

Rodgers is already there.

Mariota and Winston had pretty good rookie years, neither of which were anywhere close to as good as RGIII's rookie year, or Josh Freeman or Daunte Culpepper's first years as full time starters.

I think Wilson, Luck, and Cam are perfect for the discussion, though.

One major problem we have IMO is that as football fans there has been a little bit of a lag (which is to be expected) in converting a QB's performance to the new scale of QB performance in what is increasingly a passing dominated league.

For instance, I think for many of us (myself included) if a guy passes for about 3,800 yards while completing around 63% of his passes while throwing 25 or so TDs and 10 or so INTs that's a pretty good year. On all those measures though that is exactly average. If you've been watching football for more than the last six or seven years you've learned to think of this as a pretty good stat line for a QB, but it's just average. Below this is below average and above this is above average.

Derek Carr is well on his way to being pretty good. That organization seems to have righted the ship and they are definitely putting a good team around him.

Only great qb is Wilson.

Popeyejones":1555w6km said:

Rodgers is already there.



I think Wilson, Luck, and Cam are perfect for the discussion, though.

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Luck? So far he is the only one making the argument for why he shouldn't be in this conversation.

Who is the real Alex Smith? The guy who excelled under Harbaugh or the guy without him?

How about Kaep? Are we seeing who he really is now without Jimmy's guidance?

I look at all the hype around Luck and then his actual performance through 4 years and I am asking the same question. Who is Andrew Luck?

I think at this pount it is pretty safe to say he us not the guy everyone expected and Harbaugh deserves emense credit for making him look like the next coming of Peyton Manning.

Maybe some day it will click for him but the excuses have all but dried up. Many were sold on him before ever taking an NFL snap and most of them are having extreme difficulty realizing that he is as much part of his performance problem as all the excuses he has been shielded by. You are just another example of someone who refuses to believe what your eyes and all the stats are showing you.

Cam I think needs to have more than one good season. He looked elite at many pounts last year but overall his stats weren't in line with his win total. Take away the 5 other pro bowlers on his offense and put him against some tough defenses and lets see how he does then.

I suspect Cam will come back to his previous levels this year with a super bowl hang over and a tougher schedule than last year. If not then I think he belongs in that conversation.

New generation of QB's only one is standing out at the moment and we have him, there may be a severe QB drought in the league for a while and we should feel lucky, all the truly elite and or established guys are going to be retiring over the next couple years. When you see a QB that can raise the teams level and make thing happen like Wilson you know you have a player, well if you keep him healthy. Carr may be coming into that list also as stated, but there is a large void of young players after that, a lot of don't lose the game types.

RichNhansom":3pezcoaz said:

Popeyejones":3pezcoaz said:

Rodgers is already there.



I think Wilson, Luck, and Cam are perfect for the discussion, though.

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I suspect Cam will come back to his previous levels this year with a super bowl hang over and a tougher schedule than last year. If not then I think he belongs in that conversation.

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I think it's safe to say he'll face tougher defenses this year, but I don't think the schedule itself will necessarily be tougher at all. At least from what we can guess in March. On the left are QBs he faced last year and on the right are the different QBs he'll likely face this year.

Rodgers>Bridgewater
Eli>Rivers
Romo>Smith (Justin Houston may also miss significant time as of now)
Luck>Carr
Mariotta>whoever takes snaps for the 49ers
Bradford>whoever takes snaps for the Rams (?)(ironic saying that but at least as of now)
Bortles>Sanchez (?)

He does face Palmer in the regular season (so Palmer>Mallett) but it was ugly vs Palmer in the postseason so we'll see.

rideaducati":1f7o4nj8 said:

Derek Carr is well on his way to being pretty good. That organization seems to have righted the ship and they are definitely putting a good team around him.

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Good point. I think Carr's ceiling might be a little lower than some other guys' though (thinking of Bortles here).

Unlike other guys I think for him there's more limitations in the types of throws you can consistently ask him for.

As a passer he's like a rich man's Teddy Bridgewater, IMO.

He could have a long career as a top 10 guy, but I don't see him every being a top 4 guy.

Not born yet.

I could see Winston getting there if he continues to develop.

I actually don't think Wilson makes it. Not for lack of talent. But if you're talking Brady/Manning, then you're talking about Star Wars numbers. Seattle won't ever be a team that either wants to do that or designs to be that kind of team. Not with Carroll here.

I think you'd have to consider a couple seasons of 40+ TDs and a handful of 5,000 passing yards campaigns in order to get in that discussion. To do that you have to spend cap and draft capital on the offense. Seattle probably never will spend 50% or more on it's Offensive ledger. Same will be the case with Carolina as they retain their defense on 2nd contracts in the next year or two.

Indy could also produce that with Luck. They seem interested in investing for the SW offense.

You just need to have such an abundance of offensive talent in order to achieve those metrics. And for better or worse -- that's how the next playing legends will be judged in the 2020s.

Attyla the Hawk":1oh70tdd said:

I could see Winston getting there if he continues to develop.

I actually don't think Wilson makes it. Not for lack of talent. But if you're talking Brady/Manning, then you're talking about Star Wars numbers. Seattle won't ever be a team that either wants to do that or designs to be that kind of team. Not with Carroll here.

I think you'd have to consider a couple seasons of 40+ TDs and a handful of 5,000 passing yards campaigns in order to get in that discussion. To do that you have to spend cap and draft capital on the offense. Seattle probably never will spend 50% or more on it's Offensive ledger. Same will be the case with Carolina as they retain their defense on 2nd contracts in the next year or two.

Indy could also produce that with Luck. They seem interested in investing for the SW offense.

You just need to have such an abundance of offensive talent in order to achieve those metrics. And for better or worse -- that's how the next playing legends will be judged in the 2020s.

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Accumulative numbers over a career matter, playoff appearances matter, Super Bowl Wins and appearances matter.

chris98251":2dydjwcg said:

Attyla the Hawk":2dydjwcg said:

I could see Winston getting there if he continues to develop.

I actually don't think Wilson makes it. Not for lack of talent. But if you're talking Brady/Manning, then you're talking about Star Wars numbers. Seattle won't ever be a team that either wants to do that or designs to be that kind of team. Not with Carroll here.

I think you'd have to consider a couple seasons of 40+ TDs and a handful of 5,000 passing yards campaigns in order to get in that discussion. To do that you have to spend cap and draft capital on the offense. Seattle probably never will spend 50% or more on it's Offensive ledger. Same will be the case with Carolina as they retain their defense on 2nd contracts in the next year or two.

Indy could also produce that with Luck. They seem interested in investing for the SW offense.

You just need to have such an abundance of offensive talent in order to achieve those metrics. And for better or worse -- that's how the next playing legends will be judged in the 2020s.

Click to expand...

Accumulative numbers over a career matter, playoff appearances matter, Super Bowl Wins and appearances matter.

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Agree with you Chris. If Russ gets 3 or 4 rings with big though not immense numbers (similar to last season), he'll be in that group.

Popeyejones":23v0hjlu said:

For instance, I think for many of us (myself included) if a guy passes for about 3,800 yards while completing around 63% of his passes while throwing 25 or so TDs and 10 or so INTs that's a pretty good year. On all those measures though that is exactly average. If you've been watching football for more than the last six or seven years you've learned to think of this as a pretty good stat line for a QB, but it's just average. Below this is below average and above this is above average.

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Most of those stats in isolation are maybe average. But there are only 2 players in the league last year that completed 63% of their passes, threw for 3800 yards, 25 TDs and 10 or less interceptions.

chris98251":2xp7riti said:

Accumulative numbers over a career matter, playoff appearances matter, Super Bowl Wins and appearances matter.

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That's true to a point. But if you don't have those numbers, then the bar for those appearances is very high.

Rothlisberger isn't in this conversation. He has the occasional numbers year. He has 3 appearances (two titles). Yet isn't in the same breath.

Compare to Rodgers, who has one SB appearance and title. He only has 2 appearances in conference title games. And even in this thread, I see Rodgers name bandied about. Compare to Brees. Who also features in this thread. One title. One conference title lost.

Not a whiff to Rotlisberger. Or Eli Manning. Guys who have fewer big number years but double or more the playoff/conference title appearances.

Ultimately, I think playoff appearances, title appearances and SB appearances runs a vastly distant 2nd to just numbers.

Don't know what you watch or see but every time those two are on TV they are talking future HOF QB's in Eli and Ben. The analysts and pre game guys all say the same stuff, those are also their peers and coaches many times that do impact voting, so I will side with those guys as far as establishing value over a career.