Any legs to this?

Siouxhawk · Jan 24, 2017

I was discussing salary cap issues with a friend the other day and had this question: Do you think under-the-table payments are ever made to star players so that a team can be more competitive throughout the roster?

Of course the team I question most is the Patriots, who seem to follow the credo that if you're not cheatin, you're not trying. By taking such a supposed salary cut, Brady has given the Patriots tremendous flexibility to keep their roster restocked and fluid.

But what if Robert Kraft put $30 million in a Swiss bank account for Terrific Tom? Who would know the wiser? As long as there wasn't a paper trail like the inept Timberwolves got busted for 20 years ago. And what would be the penalty if it were detected? You can't give an NFL team the death penalty like they do in college.

And I don't necessarily mean to pick on the Patriots. Any team with an overzealous and ultracompetitive owner could be suspect.

2_0_6 · Jan 24, 2017

Too much at risk for the reward. All it would take is one player leaving and blowing the whistle for it all to be over.

Siouxhawk · Jan 24, 2017

Hawk_Nation":16i92jnm said:
Too much at risk for the reward. All it would take is one player leaving and blowing the whistle for it all to be over.

But why would any other players have to know?

Or what about this? What if the compensation was in a gift form, such as retail property or vacation land in Brazil? If it's not in a set salary, could it be held against the cap?

There's likely something in the CBA that would make this a violation, but it wouldn't really be illegal in the U.S. Court system, would it? I would guess a Super Bowl victory would make a team and its owner a lot of money. So would it be worth the gamble?

chris98251 · Jan 24, 2017

I think the 49ers did that and we seen what happened to De Bartolo and Carmen Policy.

Siouxhawk · Jan 24, 2017

They had to surrender all control and their shares of the team, right?
That's why they are in the mess they are now.

chris98251 · Jan 24, 2017

He had to hand over control, it was to his sister I believe don't quote me on that, but she was married to York who took control.

5_Golden_Rings · Jan 25, 2017

chris98251":322yvpx0 said:
I think the 49ers did that and we seen what happened to De Bartolo and Carmen Policy.

No they didn't. There was no need as there was no salary cap at the time. As soon as the cap was started the dynasty started falling apart.

5_Golden_Rings · Jan 25, 2017

Siouxhawk":39bh5db4 said:
They had to surrender all control and their shares of the team, right?
That's why they are in the mess they are now.

No. That was because Debartolo committed a felony. And the team transfered to his sister.

Siouxhawk · Jan 25, 2017

5_Golden_Rings":1xa3t0mq said:
Siouxhawk":1xa3t0mq said:

They had to surrender all control and their shares of the team, right?
That's why they are in the mess they are now.

Click to expand...

No. That was because Debartolo committed a felony. And the team transfered to his sister.

OK. Wasn't sure, so that would be off topic. I wonder if any owner has secretly paid a player to circumvent salary cap restrictions?

Pape · Jan 25, 2017

Siouxhawk":hyui76uo said:
5_Golden_Rings":hyui76uo said:

Siouxhawk":hyui76uo said:

They had to surrender all control and their shares of the team, right?
That's why they are in the mess they are now.

Click to expand...

No. That was because Debartolo committed a felony. And the team transfered to his sister.

Click to expand...

OK. Wasn't sure, so that would be off topic. I wonder if any owner has secretly paid a player to circumvent salary cap restrictions?

The Denver Broncos did it twice. Both times it involved players on their super bowl teams, and in at least one instance, it involved both Elway and Davis. They lost nearly 2 million dollars and two 3rd round picks. They circumvented the cap by not reporting to the league over 29 million dollars in deferred payments to elway/davis.

The difference between the Patriots / Brady deals and most (not all) other teams qb deals is simple - Brady earns the full amount of the contract. The flashy contracts which have a huge annual value are mostly for bragging rights, and the players know they will never see all that money (most or the time).

The one exception i can remember is drew brees and his current contract - but that was really a result of poor cap management by the saints and altering his contract too many tomes, eventually it caught up with them

Maulbert · Jan 25, 2017

5_Golden_Rings":15v3194f said:
chris98251":15v3194f said:

I think the 49ers did that and we seen what happened to De Bartolo and Carmen Policy.

Click to expand...

No they didn't. There was no need as there was no salary cap at the time. As soon as the cap was started the dynasty started falling apart.

BULLSHIT!

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...salary-cap-violations-carmen-policy-penalties

Siouxhawk · Jan 25, 2017

Pape":3u4kenie said:
Siouxhawk":3u4kenie said:

5_Golden_Rings":3u4kenie said:

Siouxhawk":3u4kenie said:

They had to surrender all control and their shares of the team, right?
That's why they are in the mess they are now.

Click to expand...

No. That was because Debartolo committed a felony. And the team transfered to his sister.

Click to expand...

OK. Wasn't sure, so that would be off topic. I wonder if any owner has secretly paid a player to circumvent salary cap restrictions?

Click to expand...

The Denver Broncos did it twice. Both times it involved players on their super bowl teams, and in at least one instance, it involved both Elway and Davis. They lost nearly 2 million dollars and two 3rd round picks. They circumvented the cap by not reporting to the league over 29 million dollars in deferred payments to elway/davis.

The difference between the Patriots / Brady deals and most (not all) other teams qb deals is simple - Brady earns the full amount of the contract. The flashy contracts which have a huge annual value are mostly for bragging rights, and the players know they will never see all that money (most or the time).

The one exception i can remember is drew brees and his current contract - but that was really a result of poor cap management by the saints and altering his contract too many tomes, eventually it caught up with them

Thank you for the info. Exactly what I was looking for. Two thirds and $2 million seems a paltry price if it helps a team win a pair of Super Bowls.

Brees can't be the only QB to play out their contracts. Veterans like Favre, Peyton, Roethlisberger, Rivers and Palmer must've burned through two or three deals by now. And that's just the QBs. I wouldn't be surprised if Brady were getting some unreported "perks."

Popeyejones · Jan 25, 2017

Lots of misinformation in this thread.

Debartolo didn't lose the team because of salary cap malfeasance or because he was charged with failure to report extortion and received probation for it (for that the NFL made him step down as owner for one year --that's it).

He lost the team because he co-owned Debartolo Corporation with his sister, and as the business went through a serious downturn they agreed to split assets. The 9ers were rising in value but not generating annual money, so Eddie was cash poor but investment rich in 1999, right when his sister's husband had just sold his medical laboratory business for gobs and gobs of money.

As a result when debartolo and his sister split their assets Eddie got the real estate empire and York & Eddie's sister got the long term investment, as they had the cash to actually support it as it rose in value.

TBF if Eddie and his sister didn't have the falling out what would have happened probably is that she would have just been the owner in name for the one year while he served his suspension, which wouldn't have really mattered anyway as Carmen Policy had been serving as the de facto head of the organization for quite some time anyway.

It's also incorrect to say that Policy was banned for the salary cap violations, even though they were his and they came under his watch. He paid a 400k fine for his role but went on to serve as Presodent and CEO of the Browns for the next four years after that.

As for the salary cap violations, they were reported to the NFL by John York :lol:

As the story goes (and I remember this) there was a MASSIVE fan backlash to York and his ownership, so he wanted to take some of the bloom off the rose of Eddie and Policy's accomplishments and went to the NFL. When this all came out, fans being fans, it has the exact opposite effect of what he was hoping for.

Osprey · Jan 26, 2017

Siouxhawk":2mzy5275 said:
And I don't necessarily mean to pick on the Patriots. Any team with an overzealous and ultracompetitive owner could be suspect.

Pretty sure the Pats have admitted to doing business with a company that Brady co-owns. If I recall correctly it's a training and nutritional consulting service so a great way to move cash to a player with little overhead on the player's side.

Pape · Jan 26, 2017

Siouxhawk":3eaupivr said:
Thank you for the info. Exactly what I was looking for. Two thirds and $2 million seems a paltry price if it helps a team win a pair of Super Bowls.

Brees can't be the only QB to play out their contracts. Veterans like Favre, Peyton, Roethlisberger, Rivers and Palmer must've burned through two or three deals by now. And that's just the QBs. I wouldn't be surprised if Brady were getting some unreported "perks."

I'm sure Brees isn't the only qb, he was the only one i remembered at the time. The difference in the Brady contract is he gets all his money upfront, and doesn't use the back end of a contract to inflate the total numbers of the deal. Does any one think the Ravens will be paying Joe Flacco a base salary of over $24,000,000 in the final year of his deal? Most likely not. That was the point I was trying to make.

As for the Brady contract and ilicit payments, not sure why the Patriots would do that. They have the cap room, and if they wanted could pay him a ton of money and not hurt the bottom line. Going into next year, they have nearly 68 million dollars in cap space.

Realize this - the NFL front office has a hard on for the Pats and I believe if they caught the Patriots doing something huge like this, it would be a SMU-type death penalty for the Kraft family. As in the NFL would force them out of ownership. Look what they did to the Patriots over a farts worth of air in a football.

The Broncos cap fraud shows a relatively light penalty for cap circumvention. But that was under Tagliabue. I cannot imaging what carnage the Ginger Hammer would wreak on a team caught doing something akin to what the Broncos did. Tagliabue had a smooth way about how he carried himself and ran the league office. It didn't always go well, but it was effective. His stewardship led the league to experience its exponential growth. Two totally different styles of management at play here.

Goodell on the other hand is nothing but a wrecking ball, and is not what I consider to be a good leader of men. What he benefits from is the largess from the television contracts - he makes the owners money, and for that they are willing to overlook his obvious faults. He is heavy handed - just look at the crap the seahawks have had to deal with over a few practices and an omission from the injury report. I don't think he knows how to deal with an issue other than using a billy club to beat his opponents into submission.

pmedic920 · Jan 26, 2017

In before somebody says that RW was paid 100 million dollars for doing a Microsoft commercial.

:{)

Siouxhawk · Jan 26, 2017

You all bring up some interesting points, pmedic's illustrating how easy it would be for an owner to fill a player's pockets with extra loot. Just make a legitimate advertising or public relations deal with him on behalf of one of the owner's other businesses. Simple as pie.

Siouxhawk · Jan 26, 2017

Pape":280zel77 said:
Siouxhawk":280zel77 said:

Thank you for the info. Exactly what I was looking for. Two thirds and $2 million seems a paltry price if it helps a team win a pair of Super Bowls.

Brees can't be the only QB to play out their contracts. Veterans like Favre, Peyton, Roethlisberger, Rivers and Palmer must've burned through two or three deals by now. And that's just the QBs. I wouldn't be surprised if Brady were getting some unreported "perks."

Click to expand...

I'm sure Brees isn't the only qb, he was the only one i remembered at the time. The difference in the Brady contract is he gets all his money upfront, and doesn't use the back end of a contract to inflate the total numbers of the deal. Does any one think the Ravens will be paying Joe Flacco a base salary of over $24,000,000 in the final year of his deal? Most likely not. That was the point I was trying to make.

As for the Brady contract and ilicit payments, not sure why the Patriots would do that. They have the cap room, and if they wanted could pay him a ton of money and not hurt the bottom line. Going into next year, they have nearly 68 million dollars in cap space.

Realize this - the NFL front office has a hard on for the Pats and I believe if they caught the Patriots doing something huge like this, it would be a SMU-type death penalty for the Kraft family. As in the NFL would force them out of ownership. Look what they did to the Patriots over a farts worth of air in a football.

The Broncos cap fraud shows a relatively light penalty for cap circumvention. But that was under Tagliabue. I cannot imaging what carnage the Ginger Hammer would wreak on a team caught doing something akin to what the Broncos did. Tagliabue had a smooth way about how he carried himself and ran the league office. It didn't always go well, but it was effective. His stewardship led the league to experience its exponential growth. Two totally different styles of management at play here.

Goodell on the other hand is nothing but a wrecking ball, and is not what I consider to be a good leader of men. What he benefits from is the largess from the television contracts - he makes the owners money, and for that they are willing to overlook his obvious faults. He is heavy handed - just look at the crap the seahawks have had to deal with over a few practices and an omission from the injury report. I don't think he knows how to deal with an issue other than using a billy club to beat his opponents into submission.

Very thorough and well-written post. I like the comparisons of Tagliabue and Goodell. And yes, Roger might be perceived as a ruthless czar, but make no mistake, he's making the owners boatloads of cash. That's when I see a Robert Kraft act like he's all hot and bothered by a Goodell ruling, I don't sympathize because I know Kraft is also being compensated handsomely in part by one of Goodell's business dealings, especially, like you said, the TV contracts.

NINEster · Jan 26, 2017

chris98251":5ekkdwz2 said:
I think the 49ers did that and we seen what happened to De Bartolo and Carmen Policy.

"I think"....LOL.

Well, "I think" that the Seahawks have cheated with steroids, Adderall, defensive holding, referee manipulation.

We saw what happened when a team popped out of nowhere and had the #1 scoring defense 4 years in a row and didn't get it's ass kicked for a record 80 games or whatever it was.

NINEster · Jan 26, 2017

Hawk haters talking smack about Niners and cap infringements would be like Niner fans claiming the Seahawks DBs held in their losses to the Patriots, Panthers, Packers, and Falcons.

In other words, it had no effect on anything meaningful....and the team didn't go anywhere in respective years.

Keep trying guys. :2thumbs:

Any legs to this?

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