NFL facing similar conundrum to Harley Davidson

mrt144

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The question looming for Harley Davidson is whether they can deviate away from their all encompassing lifestyle brand to sell motorcycles to a younger generation. Despite being the 800 lb gorilla in the industry and having bought out and killed competitors there is a demographic cliff looming for them: Their target demo that have been loyal customers for decades are now getting to be above riding age. That same target demo is also completely adverse to changes to the underlying design and mechanics and is more than willing to pay more for that branding than better equipped and designed and less expensive bikes.

To wit, their product line is less diverse, again to satiate the core customers they've had for decades.

Harley Davidson at one point bought an intriguing company called Buell and gutted the entire company. Buell had several different types of bike, was forward thinking in aesthetics and technology, and had more nascent appeal among bike enthusiasts who weren't brand loyal.

So where are the parallels to the NFL here?

1. The long time viewers (4+ decades) of the NFL are going through two changes - their disposable income is going down as they end their careers (which like Harley is at odds with the premium the command). As such their advertising value is also shrinking. This will have an impact not only on what advertisers are willing to pay for NFL spots BUT will also have an impact on who chooses to advertise on NFL spots. For folks like me you really get a picture of the audience based on the advertisements. The ad programmers try their best to strike a balance of specific targets and general targets but there's a reason 60 minutes has so many quality of life pharma ads while Always Sunny does not.

Secondly, they are remaining a captive audience by the medium they use. The advertising value on TV, one of the chiefly important revenue streams will be impacted by people 35 and under who in general, don't utilize TV as the sole source of entertainment or at least primary. You can see this in the multitude of stories about cord cutters (of which I am one) but in 10-15 years time what will the outlook be for over the air advertising revenues?

2. Some large proportion of the audience imagines the NFL as some immutable status quo (Much like a large proportion of Harley fans think anything but air cooling is as wrong as sin). Read the ad nauseum comments about missing how brutal and raw and pure the NFL was back in the 70s and 80s. This nostalgia works well so long as new generations similarly lap it up but this is where both the NFL and Harley are running into issues - younger generations, especially with Harley view them as dentist weekend pirate cosplay whether they're even bike enthusiasts or not. For many younger fans of the NFL watching Ricardo Lockette be on death's door after that hit doesn't conjur up feelings of "OH MAN, THE NFL IS WAR! YAH!" it merely reinforces all the real negative impacts that the game itself has on the participants. In fact, one of the starkest divergences is the ability to stomach obviously detrimental hits and in some cases elevate those as the essence of football. For people that have a wide breadth of games, both sport and otherwise, I don't believe this has to be the case but I know more than a handful would shout me down for suggesting the NFL could learn a lot from Rugby.

The connection to the NFL will always be tribal on some level just as brand loyalty is to Harley. An older generation views that brand loyalty in some small part as ownership of the brand itself. But what if the brand image being projected works really well on one cohort while being a complete turnoff to another? This is where cost benefit analysis comes into play, obviously, but for both the NFL and Harley it seems like most initiatives are borne out of trying to extract as much profit out already loyal customers by spurning potential new ones. Again, I allude to the premium that Harley commands among their core demographic that internalizes it as a lifestyle. Without the cultural cache they will be hard pressed to maintain profit margins and as time moves forward it is becoming apparent that Harley wants to ram their idea of a customer down the entire market's throat. From turning show rooms into schwag rooms to how their salespeople interact with the customer ("You man enough to ride a Harley?").

Looping that back to the NFL, I believe a large proportion of NFL fans view it as part of their core identity - not quite to the level of college football but still very strong affinity in many markets. This is great in the short to medium turn but has the potential to alienate a wider following of the game in the long term.

3. Outward resentment not only from other fans but from the league itself towards potential new and different viewers. This dovetails back into point 2 with regard to how fans view their place in football and how football places in their lives. The sense of ownership is the exact reason issues revolving around Kaep/Reid/Bennett are couched in terms of "it makes business sense to do X thing" but using a very near term outlook. Yes, it alienating old or longtime viewers isn't 'good business' per se BUT it will happen regardless if you do anything but remain stagnant.

You could also use TD celebrations as another piece of evidence in the dichotomy and one where the NFL has yielded.

Speaking towards resentment towards other fans, there is a bit of self selection here especially on sites like Seahawks.net and Fieldgulls where obviously we go out of our way to discuss everything and anything around the team but...there is a definite entitlement abundant about 'fanning' the right way. And what football should be. And it's all self serving to validate how one's self does it. Cause how else does one justify spending ~20 hours a week talking about a game we don't even participate in?

4. Being the 800 lb gorilla is great until it isn't. And when it turns bad it's because the 800 lb gorilla starved to death resting on the laurels of being the 800 lb gorilla. There are changes under way right now demographically (and Mods, please please please excuse the political content of this point because the underlying point isn't the politics inherent but a reflection of how one cohort differs from another) where a younger generation is

A. trending away from conservative identity. Much was written in the aftermath of the 2016 about how millenials et al are less likely to identify as either Republican or Democrat but when polled on specific issues and specific approval of current power holders more than just lean Democrat.

B. Don't have the same reverence for cultural touchstones of Boomers. Whenever I hear an older person complaining about how young people ruin everything I just remind myself that it's a complaint about how young people don't appreciate the same exact things in the same exact way as the older person. That's just natural though, not an outrage.

C. Have way less ingrained modes of entertaining themselves. Referencing point B, look at how some bristle at all the 'not football' things currently injected into the stadium and TV experience.

D. Less disposable income at the same place in life as previous generations by a confluence of factors. This is especially the case with Harley but you could apply the underlying mechanics to ticket sales in the NFL. Imagine a future where the vast vast majority of NFL fans have never stepped foot inside the stadium of their favorite NFL team. And don't want to given the actual experience of gameday from the trip, the parking, the milling about, the other fans (don't get me started on stadium restrooms and the tragedy of the urinal commons), the inferior views, etc etc. And would be hard pressed to justify financially if they did want to. Assuming that ticket prices decline to clear the market though, this would impact the profitability of the NFL itself but also diminish the potential to enjoy the public funds that buoy their stadium projects in the first place.

5. Apathy from long standing fans about the future of the NFL - fans who only care about the 10-15 year outlook and ensuring it aligns with what they already know and love. That certainly is a way to view the NFL and the world at large but it undercuts the value of input from those people. How are people concerned with the 20-30 outlook supposed to find useful information from people that implicitly state "let this thing die after I die"?

While there are some key differences between the NFL and Harley the similarities in catering to an aging hardcore demographic and potentially painting themselves into an intractable or less profitable corner is there and its a conundrum steeped in not having to adapt by virtue of market power over competitors. But both companies are hurtling towards the same question: "Have we done enough to replace the ultra loyal ranks willing to pay more for an outdated product with a similar consumer?" and in my estimation the answer is no.
 

chris98251

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Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.
 
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mrt144

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chris98251":1zremmqc said:
Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

This paragraph is all the validation my various points needed. Needlessly invective while claiming sole ownership to what football is and excluding everyone else for 'fanning' wrong. Seeming indifference if football exists in the future or a flat rejection of what football might become in the future.

The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

False and wanders into personal social theory.

How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

Clearly you don't work in marketing by asking such a question. It is such a defeatist and resentful old person thing to imagine the youth of today as an enigmatic sphinx beyond understanding by anyone, including themselves.

Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

Okay, so hypothesize how that affects the future of sports leagues. Here's the impression I get from you:

888

On the one hand you identify something that I can totally resonate with. On the other hand your reaction seems to be "they need to change to conform to preexisting structures". On a more fundamental level do you even really care if sports leagues exist in the future and do you really think the NFL or Harley Davidson should sit on their hands and tell potential customers to get in line, just cause you did? The internet genie is out of the bottle, there's no turning back on how that affected every cohort of society. The question is how we manage that reality but it's hard with nostalgists pretending there is a way to turn back.

It comes across to me that you are severely disinterested in how the NFL will react to the oncoming demographic changes. I offered a morbid rationale for that but is there more to it than that? Just as a on the nose example, would you have started a thread like this on your own? ;)

Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

Care to elaborate on your hypothesis in how sports will change? I'm genuinely interested! What do you see becoming more popular and why and on what timeline?

The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.

When you were 34, did you really expect the world to never change? I'm 34 now, I'll probably be similarly resentful about how the youth ruined my favorite things over time when I'm your age (please tell me you aren't 35 ;) ). But I'll also really make an effort to not think my nostalgia is that important. It already pisses me off that half the entertainment industry couldn't help but mine my childhood for ideas from the mid 2000s onward.

FWIW, I played football in high school and equal parts resentful and thankful I couldn't play more. Wasn't blessed with a football frame but spared countless concussions. But man, to play football professionally...sigh...
 

BirdsCommaAngry

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chris98251":7v32rg7z said:
Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.

Well, you've convinced me, Chris. You've convinced you're unaware or deliberately ignoring growing evidence of various societal improvements, such as on-going declines in crime, unwanted teen pregnancy, etc. You've convinced me no matter how many classes I take, how many books I read, or how much work I do, I'll be confined to the overly biased stereotyping of someone fearing the unknown. You've shown me the words of a troll, a hater, a fool. You've convinced me your opinion is, for the time being, devoid of value. You've convinced me you're what I, like every member of every other modern generation has done when following the previous generation, will improve upon. You think you're calling us out but instead, the message we're receiving is "I don't know what I'm talking about and you should no longer look to me for suggestions about what to do with this planet you're going to become much more responsible for." Was the rant really worth it?
 

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BirdsCommaAngry":vvjk2qrc said:
chris98251":vvjk2qrc said:
Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.

Well, you've convinced me, Chris. You've convinced you're unaware or deliberately ignoring growing evidence of various societal improvements, such as on-going declines in crime, unwanted teen pregnancy, etc. You've convinced me no matter how many classes I take, how many books I read, or how much work I do, I'll be confined to the overly biased stereotyping of someone fearing the unknown. You've shown me the words of a troll, a hater, a fool. You've convinced me your opinion is, for the time being, devoid of value. You've convinced me you're what I, like every member of every other modern generation has done when following the previous generation, will improve upon. You think you're calling us out but instead, the message we're receiving is "I don't know what I'm talking about and you should no longer look to me for suggestions about what to do with this planet you're going to become much more responsible for." Was the rant really worth it?
Wow...You have covinced me that you are so sensitive with little backbone over someones opinion.
 

mikeak

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Please stay on track so an interesting subject isn’t closed

Don’t argue why people are what they are stick to how the product can continue to be profitably delivered and grow in a changing environment
 
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mrt144

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mikeak":2bx12hms said:
Please stay on track so an interesting subject isn’t closed

Don’t argue why people are what they are stick to how the product can continue to be profitably delivered and grow in a changing environment

Thank you for saying this! It is kind of a symptom of the apathy or disinterest though. Instead of focusing on how to manage and deal a lot of people approach this from a "how do I feel and why did it happen (So I can provide a rationale for how I feel)" POV, which can be interesting but at this point doesn't cover much new ground in thought and action.

I could lump in a few other companies facing this generational gap like Sears and JC Penny although they've been on notice since the mid 2000s and aren't seemingly finding their footing in a changing retail space. Is the fate of most retailers like that Mervyn's?
 

chris98251

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mrt144":jy6wy3hg said:
chris98251":jy6wy3hg said:
Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

This paragraph is all the validation my various points needed. Needlessly invective while claiming sole ownership to what football is and excluding everyone else for 'fanning' wrong. Seeming indifference if football exists in the future or a flat rejection of what football might become in the future.

The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

False and wanders into personal social theory.

How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

Clearly you don't work in marketing by asking such a question. It is such a defeatist and resentful old person thing to imagine the youth of today as an enigmatic sphinx beyond understanding by anyone, including themselves.

Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

Okay, so hypothesize how that affects the future of sports leagues. Here's the impression I get from you:

888

On the one hand you identify something that I can totally resonate with. On the other hand your reaction seems to be "they need to change to conform to preexisting structures". On a more fundamental level do you even really care if sports leagues exist in the future and do you really think the NFL or Harley Davidson should sit on their hands and tell potential customers to get in line, just cause you did? The internet genie is out of the bottle, there's no turning back on how that affected every cohort of society. The question is how we manage that reality but it's hard with nostalgists pretending there is a way to turn back.

It comes across to me that you are severely disinterested in how the NFL will react to the oncoming demographic changes. I offered a morbid rationale for that but is there more to it than that? Just as a on the nose example, would you have started a thread like this on your own? ;)

Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

Care to elaborate on your hypothesis in how sports will change? I'm genuinely interested! What do you see becoming more popular and why and on what timeline?

The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.

When you were 34, did you really expect the world to never change? I'm 34 now, I'll probably be similarly resentful about how the youth ruined my favorite things over time when I'm your age (please tell me you aren't 35 ;) ). But I'll also really make an effort to not think my nostalgia is that important. It already pisses me off that half the entertainment industry couldn't help but mine my childhood for ideas from the mid 2000s onward.

FWIW, I played football in high school and equal parts resentful and thankful I couldn't play more. Wasn't blessed with a football frame but spared countless concussions. But man, to play football professionally...sigh...

I will have to get back to your dissection and skewing of context comments when I am not at work.
 
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mrt144

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chris98251":1511nvra said:
I will have to get back to your dissection and skewing of context comments when I am not at work.

I tried not to skew context except in the first paragraph. I want to keep you on the rails of what you think will happen ;)
 

chris98251

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BirdsCommaAngry":33esvhap said:
chris98251":33esvhap said:
Outdated product? This is all about tradition and a historic value, adapting to cater to pussified society that can't handle being told they are wrong, held accountable, or need to change how they do stuff or stand up for themselves face to face not behind a keyboard. While behind their computer or now smart phone, will gut and gore and waste thousands of lives a week in video games.

The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

How are you going to market a product to a drive by generation. That's not just football anything.

Things are changing, at your fingertip society, now days you don't go out for dinner you have it delivered, you stream movies at home, we are turning more and more to people who are fearful of association with others and how we interact seems to keep regressing to isolationism more and more.

Now add a population that is really exploding and finite resources and more pressure to survive and compete against a growing list of challenges.

Disposable income is getting less and less. Being charged by item rather then a service on almost everything is a lot more expensive, that's a evolution that has happened as well.

The Sporting worlds next 25 years is going to see a dramatic shift in how they are perceived as well as how they get revenue.

The old guys as you say are going to miss the simple fun of watching a sport many of us played and that's not just football, it will be too expensive or rules of the game will have changed to where it's almost unrecognizable.

Maybe professional dodgeball will be the next best thing, only if they use sponge balls nd have protective gear however.

Well, you've convinced me, Chris. You've convinced you're unaware or deliberately ignoring growing evidence of various societal improvements, such as on-going declines in crime, unwanted teen pregnancy, etc. You've convinced me no matter how many classes I take, how many books I read, or how much work I do, I'll be confined to the overly biased stereotyping of someone fearing the unknown. You've shown me the words of a troll, a hater, a fool. You've convinced me your opinion is, for the time being, devoid of value. You've convinced me you're what I, like every member of every other modern generation has done when following the previous generation, will improve upon. You think you're calling us out but instead, the message we're receiving is "I don't know what I'm talking about and you should no longer look to me for suggestions about what to do with this planet you're going to become much more responsible for." Was the rant really worth it?

Oh your special by the way, we know saying something that could be associated with you and isn't empty praise and comes with a participation trophy so you don't deem yourself a failure is foreign.

Feel better now.
 

JGfromtheNW

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Very interesting and well thought out post, mrt144. I think you're spot-on on the vast majority of your points, and the situations with the NFL and Harley are microcosms of society today.

mrt144":yvm1pvwy said:
This nostalgia works well so long as new generations similarly lap it up but this is where both the NFL and Harley are running into issues - younger generations, especially with Harley, view them as dentist weekend pirate cosplay whether they're even bike enthusiasts or not. For many younger fans of the NFL watching Ricardo Lockette be on death's door after that hit doesn't conjur up feelings of "OH MAN, THE NFL IS WAR! YAH!" it merely reinforces all the real negative impacts that the game itself has on the participants.

The bolded section had me in stitches - mainly because it's totally true. Younger generations look at Harley riders and fans who think NFL players should still be trying to paralyze each other and "just shut up and do their jobs" and they want NOTHING to do with it. It's seen as little more than toxic masculinity and false bravado. It probably sucks to be on the receiving end of such comments, but it's true.
 

ivotuk

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Where did Buell originate?

Have you been in a Harley shop lately? They have a lot of variety. No crotch rockets, but that market has a ton of brands filling it.

I see your point though. It's actually a great analogy. Just had to give you some shit. :)
 

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mrt144":3jkhmcyg said:
The Millennial generation is non committed, flighty and has no sense of loyalty to anyone or anything. It's because they had less and less family and friends time and have been whisked from one day care or living situation to another even more then the Gen X'ers. Schools hand cuffed by stupid laws by over protective parents and Administrators have a harder time teaching social development as well. All this can be blamed on the early baby boomers and post WW!! birthers who indulged and then spoiled a whole generation which became entitled themselves. Me Generation.

False and wanders into personal social theory.

Not really. Some stereotypes are overdone, but exist for a reason.

Signed, another 34-year-old
 

BirdsCommaAngry

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IndyHawk":13rrvacw said:
Wow...You have covinced me that you are so sensitive with little backbone over someones opinion.

Would I convince you I have more backbone if I say nothing to correct a lie?

I am sensitive. If you put me in an fMRI and watch my brain's activity, you'll probably see more brain activity during simple tasks, like reading a magazine or listening to music, than a majority or near-majority of other people. "Introverted" people test as being more sensitive to all kinds of things, like sounds, and in turn, will listen music with lower volume than some others, favor conversations where there are fewer people involved than some others, etc. You're trying to use this word as insult when it's not. It's like saying, "Your hair is brown."
 
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JGfromtheNW":bz8fad00 said:
Very interesting and well thought out post, mrt144. I think you're spot-on on the vast majority of your points, and the situations with the NFL and Harley are microcosms of society today.

mrt144":bz8fad00 said:
This nostalgia works well so long as new generations similarly lap it up but this is where both the NFL and Harley are running into issues - younger generations, especially with Harley, view them as dentist weekend pirate cosplay whether they're even bike enthusiasts or not. For many younger fans of the NFL watching Ricardo Lockette be on death's door after that hit doesn't conjur up feelings of "OH MAN, THE NFL IS WAR! YAH!" it merely reinforces all the real negative impacts that the game itself has on the participants.

The bolded section had me in stitches - mainly because it's totally true. Younger generations look at Harley riders and fans who think NFL players should still be trying to paralyze each other and "just shut up and do their jobs" and they want NOTHING to do with it. It's seen as little more than toxic masculinity and false bravado. It probably sucks to be on the receiving end of such comments, but it's true.

Pulling on this thread a bit more and stepping back from the specific argument put forth to a broader view - one of my perceptions is that like older generations previously through history, there are two disbeliefs going on among the Boomers+:

1. That what they consider to be the natural status quo attained over the course of decades of their lives (6+ now) is in fact not a natural status quo but an cumulative outcome of action and reaction.

2. That younger generations reject older generational values empirically. On a personal level, the amount of fealty my Boomer parents had towards their careers left a terrible taste in my mouth and questioning the existential value of placing career highly in my life. Materialism as well. This is a strong under current among many of my peers that a lot of the life lessons and imperatives to a good life are a rejection of what previous generations hold.

Now there is a compelling argument to be made that a lot of our perception and values were forged in a time of increasing decadence so our values are overtly influenced by that. Even within that context though you can see there are adoptions and rejections of decadance that diverges from previous generations. For all the accusations of millenials being careless with money and prioritizing irrational things, the reality is that as an entire cohort millenials aren't drunk sailors on shore leave. Are food fads involving avocado ridiculous? Yes. Is rejecting a brand because of the obnoxious image it purposefully conveys ridiculous? No.

A keen example of this is seen in the rise of video games and the perception of who plays video games. For many folks, if you identify one of your main hobbies as video or computer games, there's is an instant placing of you into a schema of who plays video games and what their lives are like - socially isolated and addicted. Yet when you broaden the scope of video games to include things like Farmville or anything like that, it appears that video games have a broad appeal across every spectrum and stripe of society and in fact the bare essence is that humans like games, period. The medium has changed and early adopters of media in that medium set the tone, yet society as a whole has adopted them as one of many forms of entertainment for all to enjoy.

Then when you dig a little deeper you realize that as time has progressed, video games have leveraged the possibility of connecting with other people via the internet to play together into flourishing social communities. And in fact new entries into video game media are often time fostered as community improvement projects for the specific games. Not only do video games have the potential to unite folks of all walks together due to the infrastructure and connectivity advantages, they also can foster new ventures in creativity and cooperation.

And now, at the stage we're at with video game development, we have entire conventions like Penny Arcade Expo which is dedicated to all things gaming that attracts tens of thousands of attendees each year and generates significant economic activity.

But there will always be a contingent of people that place video games in the negative context formed around the time of their first stab into the greater consciousness of society and who are unwilling to adjust their schema to the changing reality around them. Again, I invoke Principal Skinner.
 

Sgt. Largent

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adeltaY":2q38gg71 said:
Dat millenial-bashing doe.

I won't bash millennials on this topic, but the comparison is a good one.

The NFL, like Harley Davidson has to figure out a way to appeal to a generation that has zero regard for;

- establishment
- tradition
- reverence for what their dads loved

The NFL also has to figure out how to get millennials to watch and become engaged in a 3-4 hour game on cable, when most of them only stream, and don't have that type of attention span, especially for a sport they're apathetic about.

But this is not just the NFL, all pro sports are having this problem. Hell, baseball's been trying to figure it our for over a decade, and not succeeding.

Bottom line though, the NFL isn't going anywhere anytime soon. It just won't ever hit the popularity heights it's achieved over the past 10-15 years, and it'll continue to evolve (or devolve for some of us).
 
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mrt144

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ivotuk":1x1jxnan said:
Where did Buell originate?

Have you been in a Harley shop lately? They have a lot of variety. No crotch rockets, but that market has a ton of brands filling it.

I see your point though. It's actually a great analogy. Just had to give you some shit. :)

Buell was an engineer with Harley and started his own company, so I suppose it's a bit like Mama Shark eating her young ;)

And the last time I was in a Harley shop I was with a bud and I got popped that "Are you man enough to ride a Harley" but I like to think my Renegade-like locks are proof enough.

:lol: No problem on busting my chops though. Just by way of example, what does Harley offer in the cafe racer mold? Cause that's the kind of entry level bike they could leverage into a lifetime customer but are seemingly reluctant to do and which a bunch of my friends into motorcycles are clamoring for to get more people riding with them. Short distance economical bikes without pizzaz or the brand premium.

My perception is Harley wants the ultra loyal brandist who uses the bike for long rides and get togethers instead of being a utilitarian tool for transportation. With the reurbanization of people 40 and under, it seems to be at odds with money on the table at current and what a younger rider can afford in a brand new bike, if they're even buying new.

That leads into another potential crunch on Harley that is unique to them though: what will happen to the used bike market when Boomers+ start unloading them. Sure there will be the kids who inherit the bike and maybe take up the hobby but even then they are likely inheriting a monster bike and not a Softail or something. In 10 years, what can Harley do to position their new bikes as competitive against the glut of used Harleys?
 

mikeak

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All the NFL has to do is sit back and see what MLB does to adjust

The MLB is in way more trouble. The game has no action and if you look at the phone the wrong 10 seconds you miss the homer. At least in football you know when the ball is being snapped and you can look up...

The NFL has done a lot. All the rule changes that people complain about is to speed up the game and see more scoring. Moving the ball in chunks. It is IMHO why even a good Seahawks season two years ago was deemed as a really bad season by people. It simply wasn’t “fun” to watch... it was nothing like the fast paced ball moving offenses that even when they lead to a punt are fun to watch in between.

The main problem to me is the competing with so much content. There are only so many hours that can be spent watching something and now that content is available 24/7. If I am going to sit down and watch tv for 3.5hrs in the middle of they day then I can’t be streaming three shows later. This combined with more households were both spouses are working and guys expected to take care of our kids leads to people like me watching the Seahawks, a little bit of red zone here or there.

It is the same problem the whole sport of golf has. It is a great time commitment and to do it means not doing a myriad of other things. When you worked 8hrs at work, came home and dinner was ready it was a whole lot easier.....
 

kobebryant

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I've definitely come to enjoy the NBA much more than the NFL over the past few years, which I never thought would be the case. It seems like NFL ownership keeps getting in its own way and stepping in it, and almost seems to work on the premise that their fan base is dumb and/or uneducated.
 
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