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Sherman So Far

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Re: Sherman So Far
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:59 am
  • Honestly can't believe Sherm has played so well coming back from that Achilles injury. Figured he'd be a step or two slower which would really hurt his game since he was never really a super athletic, fast twitch type of guy.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:34 am
  • Popeyejones wrote:PFF is using traditional statistics to elevate Sherman, but their own advanced stats show that he's not absolutely dominating to the level those traditional stats make it seem to be.

    We also shouldn't shift the goalposts on the expectations for Sherman, though. Picking nits about how he has gotten beaten on passes where the ball was off target is beside the point, as you can say that about any CB in any year in the history of the NFL.

    The standard here is that Sherman is getting paid to be a Top 20 cornerback in the NFL, not the best cornerback in the NFL.

    In terms of if he's performing to expectations or not his comps are guys like Prince Amukamara, Joe Haden, Robert Alford, Logan Ryan, Aqib Talib, Chris Harris, Kareem Jackson, and Aaron Colvin.

    If he finishes in the middle of those 8 guys he's about where he should be in comparison to his salary. If he's in the top half he has over-performed on expectations. So far he has very much over-performed on expectations.


    Right but teams are flat out not throwing at him so he's about as effective as a CB can be. That said, do you think it's a dam about to burst situation? Meaning the first good QB to really test him exposes him and it all comes crashing down? I hope not as a fan but what are your thoughts pops?
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Re: Sherman So Far
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:01 am
  • adeltaY wrote:Right but teams are flat out not throwing at him so he's about as effective as a CB can be. That said, do you think it's a dam about to burst situation? Meaning the first good QB to really test him exposes him and it all comes crashing down? I hope not as a fan but what are your thoughts pops?


    Nah, I don't think it's a dam about to burst.

    From what we can see from the TV angle and replays, to be totally honest with you I think Sherm is down from his peak, but no more so than he was in the last year or two with Seattle either.

    To me he's kinda like the Frank Gore of corner backs, in that his raw athletic ability was never the interesting part of his game to begin with. That doesn't mean he'll be able to stay average to above average into his mid-30s (the important part of the story for Gore people always leave out is health), but the things he's good at (quick processing in diagnosing plays and route combos; leverage and position; staying just within the lines of legal grabbing and holding) aren't the type of things that get worse with age.

    Within reason I think he'll be able to play the game and not get totally picked on for as long as he's dedicated to doing that. It doesn't mean he's going to be a top CB week in and week out (those days are over, I think), but IMO he has a long window within that expansive gray area of "overall pretty good/not too bad" that Hawks fans who are so inclined will insist is "sucking" :lol:
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Re: Sherman So Far
Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:54 pm
  • Thanks for the answer. I think at some point this year someone's gonna test him and I wonder who it will be. Rodgers has been pretty content to avoid him so we probably won't see that this week. Hopefully he can get back on the INT train.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:12 pm
  • adeltaY wrote:Thanks for the answer. I think at some point this year someone's gonna test him and I wonder who it will be. Rodgers has been pretty content to avoid him so we probably won't see that this week. Hopefully he can get back on the INT train.


    Honestly, I think Popeye hit the nail on the head.

    I think Sherman has played well and has risen to the challenge when challenged, but he is rarely challenged. Some of that I think is reputation and some of that is that the guys on the other side are a leaving guys wide open. I honestly thought that there would be a big mismatch when they played KC. SOOOO much speed on that team and that's never been Sherman's strength. Through the first half though, it didn't happen (he was hurt for the second).

    At some point he's going to give up a few and to some the sky will fall, but to his credit he's played well so far.

    I also agree with Popeyes overlying point...Sherman was an athletic player no doubt. His biggest attribute physically was his length. That hasn't changed. He isn't fast but he was NEVER fast.

    What made him such a GREAT player though was his eyes and the gray matter between his ears. That hasn't changed.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:23 am
  • I like the job Sherman has done so far.

    Niners need to improve the pass rush and give him a good FS to back him up.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:55 am
  • adeltaY wrote:Thanks for the answer. I think at some point this year someone's gonna test him and I wonder who it will be. Rodgers has been pretty content to avoid him so we probably won't see that this week. Hopefully he can get back on the INT train.


    How's he going to hold up when Carson runs him over?
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Re: Sherman So Far
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:01 am
  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:Thanks for the answer. I think at some point this year someone's gonna test him and I wonder who it will be. Rodgers has been pretty content to avoid him so we probably won't see that this week. Hopefully he can get back on the INT train.


    How's he going to hold up when Carson runs him over?


    He's one of the best tackling CBs, so I'm sure he'll hold his own.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:47 pm
  • Don't listen to the BS, we would love him as a player if he was here, yeah his angst against certain Coaches and the message got old but it had its substance also.


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Re: Sherman So Far
Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:38 am
  • NINEster wrote:I like the job Sherman has done so far.

    Niners need to improve the pass rush and give him a good FS to back him up.

    I hear Earl Thomas might be a free agent next year.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:28 am
  • adeltaY wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:Thanks for the answer. I think at some point this year someone's gonna test him and I wonder who it will be. Rodgers has been pretty content to avoid him so we probably won't see that this week. Hopefully he can get back on the INT train.


    How's he going to hold up when Carson runs him over?


    He's one of the best tackling CBs, so I'm sure he'll hold his own.


    I agree, but I don't recall seeing him go toe to toe with a big, hard hitting RB.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:17 pm
  • I miss Sherman too.

    He was my favorite among all the other talented players with colorful personalities.

    His play spoke for itself but the trash talking and jawing made him seem even more forceful.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:44 am
  • chris98251 wrote:Don't listen to the BS, we would love him as a player if he was here, yeah his angst against certain Coaches and the message got old but it had its substance also.


    Some time a new view clears every ones air.


    No thanks, I love the way our defense is playing without Sherman's pain in the ass negativity. Pete's greatest strength is teaching defensive scheme, especially at the DB position.

    So I'm just fine with continuing to draft and assemble the next group of great young positively motivated and hungry for success defenders. The Niners can have Sherman's mouth and 8 games missed per year due to injury.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:27 pm
  • Just cost the 49ers the game tonight with an illtimed illegal contact call that kept the defense on the field.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:29 pm
  • drrew wrote:Just cost the 49ers the game tonight with an illtimed illegal contact call that kept the defense on the field.


    Yeah it wasn't the fact that the Niners kept punting the ball back to the packers or that CJB threw a disastrous interception just outside of FG range that cost them the game, it was a holding penalty.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:33 pm
  • adeltaY wrote:
    drrew wrote:Just cost the 49ers the game tonight with an illtimed illegal contact call that kept the defense on the field.


    Yeah it wasn't the fact that the Niners kept punting the ball back to the packers or that CJB threw a disastrous interception just outside of FG range that cost them the game, it was a holding penalty.


    What are you a Sherman apologist. None of your rant addresses the factual statement that Sherman’s penalty led directly to them losing the game on the last drive.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:39 pm
  • Milehighhawk wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:
    drrew wrote:Just cost the 49ers the game tonight with an illtimed illegal contact call that kept the defense on the field.


    Yeah it wasn't the fact that the Niners kept punting the ball back to the packers or that CJB threw a disastrous interception just outside of FG range that cost them the game, it was a holding penalty.


    What are you a Sherman apologist. None of your rant addresses the factual statement that Sherman’s penalty led directly to them losing the game on the last drive.


    I guess you can say I am given many fans here are intent on hating the guy and it doesn't make sense to me. Label me whatever you want.

    I guess Russell Wilson cost us SB49 because he threw the INT and not the fact that the D couldn't stop Brady at all during the 4th quarter.

    Also Pete Carroll cost us the Rams game by calling timeout because it DIRECTLY led to the Rams running the clock out on us.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:41 pm
  • adeltaY wrote:
    Milehighhawk wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:
    drrew wrote:Just cost the 49ers the game tonight with an illtimed illegal contact call that kept the defense on the field.


    Yeah it wasn't the fact that the Niners kept punting the ball back to the packers or that CJB threw a disastrous interception just outside of FG range that cost them the game, it was a holding penalty.


    What are you a Sherman apologist. None of your rant addresses the factual statement that Sherman’s penalty led directly to them losing the game on the last drive.


    I guess you can say I am given many fans here are intent on hating the guy and it doesn't make sense to me. Label me whatever you want.

    I guess Russell Wilson cost us SB49 because he threw the INT and not the fact that the D couldn't stop Brady at all during the 4th quarter.

    Also Pete Carroll cost us the Rams game by calling timeout because it DIRECTLY led to the Rams running the clock out on us.


    Non sequiter much? Again several sentences of unrelated nonsense. The dude made a bad play. It is ok to admit it. Otherwise you seem irrational and all your other arguments get washed away in the BS.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:50 pm
  • You claimed that Sherman directly cost them the game. I'm pointing out that a single play does not make a loss, it's a constellation of plays throughout the game. His penalty (which was ticky-tack, but callable) extended the drive, but that doesn't mean the Niners D couldn't have made a stop. The Packers weren't even in FG range after the penalty so how can you say the penalty directly cost them the game? It was bad and kept the drive alive, but did not cost them the game.

    Those other examples I brought up are to demonstrate how fallacious your line of thinking is for assigning blame for a loss. Russell Wilson is not the reason we lost 49 just because he threw the INT at the end of the game. Pete Carroll is not the reason we lost the Rams game despite his decision allowing the rams to change their minds and run out the clock. Those were basically the final plays in their respective games and this wasn't and they still weren't the main reasons we lost those games.

    An accurate statement would be that Sherman's penalty extended the Packers final drive and gave them a higher chance of winning. It didn't DIRECTLY cost the Niners the game.

    Another example is Fluker's holding penalty against the Rams. It was a ticky-tack call, but still callable and made our final offensive drive much more difficult. it did not directly cost us the game.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:13 pm
  • adeltaY wrote:You claimed that Sherman directly cost them the game. I'm pointing out that a single play does not make a loss, it's a constellation of plays throughout the game. His penalty (which was ticky-tack, but callable) extended the drive, but that doesn't mean the Niners D couldn't have made a stop. The Packers weren't even in FG range after the penalty so how can you say the penalty directly cost them the game? It was bad and kept the drive alive, but did not cost them the game.

    Those other examples I brought up are to demonstrate how fallacious your line of thinking is for assigning blame for a loss. Russell Wilson is not the reason we lost 49 just because he threw the INT at the end of the game. Pete Carroll is not the reason we lost the Rams game despite his decision allowing the rams to change their minds and run out the clock. Those were basically the final plays in their respective games and this wasn't and they still weren't the main reasons we lost those games.

    An accurate statement would be that Sherman's penalty extended the Packers final drive and gave them a higher chance of winning. It didn't DIRECTLY cost the Niners the game.

    Another example is Fluker's holding penalty against the Rams. It was a ticky-tack call, but still callable and made our final offensive drive much more difficult. it did not directly cost us the game.


    Give it a rest man. If you are going to quote someone, especially when the words are directly above, it is best to do so accurately, otherwise one might think you are twisting words. In the most plane definition of the word it cannot be denied that the penalty led directly to the loss. All your other diarrhea of words is meaningless and at best tangential to the point. The more you deny, the weaker and less salient your crusade to prop up an aging star becomes.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:16 pm
  • Aight dawg if you're gonna dismiss what I was saying out of hand and not even attempt to engage that's cool.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:12 am
  • adeltaY wrote:
    Milehighhawk wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:
    drrew wrote:Just cost the 49ers the game tonight with an illtimed illegal contact call that kept the defense on the field.


    Yeah it wasn't the fact that the Niners kept punting the ball back to the packers or that CJB threw a disastrous interception just outside of FG range that cost them the game, it was a holding penalty.


    What are you a Sherman apologist. None of your rant addresses the factual statement that Sherman’s penalty led directly to them losing the game on the last drive.


    I guess you can say I am given many fans here are intent on hating the guy and it doesn't make sense to me. Label me whatever you want.

    I guess Russell Wilson cost us SB49 because he threw the INT and not the fact that the D couldn't stop Brady at all during the 4th quarter.

    Also Pete Carroll cost us the Rams game by calling timeout because it DIRECTLY led to the Rams running the clock out on us.

    Since you bring this up..Yeah he did no matter how much you try to use that D that was destroyed
    by injuries prior to and during the game..He could have sand lot(ran) into the EZ or simply thrown the damn
    ball away..
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:51 am
  • Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

    If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:40 am
  • Popeyejones wrote:Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

    If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.


    Sherman's played well this year when he's played, so no none of the Niner issues are on him, including last night. Beathard and the offense had two chances to drive the ball and get a couple first downs to kick a game winning FG, and couldn't do it. That's not on Sherman.

    But do I want him back here? Hell no. Pete's turning the defensive roster over injecting youth and getting back to a positive locker room full of young hungry players............we don't need Sherman undermining that.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:03 am
  • Popeyejones wrote:Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

    If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.



    This has always been the debate with Sherman.

    Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

    His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

    I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:01 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

    If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.



    This has always been the debate with Sherman.

    Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

    His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

    I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.


    Could be why we always looked for a RCB that had something to bring to the table and shaded Earl behind him to balance the scales. They don't challenge Sherman because most times he will make you pay by baiting you or just making a great play.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:05 am

Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:54 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

    If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.



    This has always been the debate with Sherman.

    Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

    His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

    I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.


    Oh, I'm with you.

    I used to get a ton of crap here for saying I thought Pat Peterson was better than Sherman even though his stats were worse because what Peterson was asked to do was much harder than what Sherman is asked to do.

    That's a "who's the best of the best?" debate, though.

    Sherman doesn't move around, but he also controls his side of the field. And quite frankly, if you have a player that can take a side of the field away entirely and the other side gets picked on, that's not an argument against the controlled side of the field, it's an argument against the disastrous play on the other side.

    Having a guy like Sherman locking down one side of the field exposes the other side for who they are.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:58 am
  • Popeyejones wrote:
    Having a guy like Sherman locking down one side of the field exposes the other side for who they are.


    Sherman's smart. He knows that most pass plays last 3-4 seconds, so all he has to do is use his length to jam WR's at the line, and turn his hips into the route for a short amount of time.

    If Sherman has to follow WR's across the middle of the field for longer routes? That's where you can get him, but that's also why McDaniels and his D-Coordinators play the exact defense the Hawk's ran with Sherman........high safety cover zones passing off WR's through their routes. So Sherman doesn't have to follow speedy WR's too long.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:51 am
  • Popeyejones wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

    If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.



    This has always been the debate with Sherman.

    Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

    His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

    I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.


    Oh, I'm with you.

    I used to get a ton of crap here for saying I thought Pat Peterson was better than Sherman even though his stats were worse because what Peterson was asked to do was much harder than what Sherman is asked to do.

    That's a "who's the best of the best?" debate, though.

    Sherman doesn't move around, but he also controls his side of the field. And quite frankly, if you have a player that can take a side of the field away entirely and the other side gets picked on, that's not an argument against the controlled side of the field, it's an argument against the disastrous play on the other side.

    Having a guy like Sherman locking down one side of the field exposes the other side for who they are.



    What I'm saying is on a very poor defense like the 9ers have, is he having that much of a good impact? How many times was a CB with half the physicality, technical skill and experience find himself matched up with the Packers best WR last night while Sherman got the 3rd/4th WR because he was on his side?

    Do you think the 9ers wouldve been better last night if Adams (Packers clear #1) was matched up with Sherman?

    Folks are pointing to stats that basically say Sherman isnt getting challenged. But the most important stat is the overall play of the defense, of which it's difficult to say he's helping.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:03 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

    If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.



    This has always been the debate with Sherman.

    Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

    His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

    I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.


    Oh, I'm with you.

    I used to get a ton of crap here for saying I thought Pat Peterson was better than Sherman even though his stats were worse because what Peterson was asked to do was much harder than what Sherman is asked to do.

    That's a "who's the best of the best?" debate, though.

    Sherman doesn't move around, but he also controls his side of the field. And quite frankly, if you have a player that can take a side of the field away entirely and the other side gets picked on, that's not an argument against the controlled side of the field, it's an argument against the disastrous play on the other side.

    Having a guy like Sherman locking down one side of the field exposes the other side for who they are.



    What I'm saying is on a very poor defense like the 9ers have, is he having that much of a good impact? How many times was a CB with half the physicality, technical skill and experience find himself matched up with the Packers best WR last night while Sherman got the 3rd/4th WR because he was on his side?

    Do you think the 9ers wouldve been better last night if Adams (Packers clear #1) was matched up with Sherman?

    Folks are pointing to stats that basically say Sherman isnt getting challenged. But the most important stat is the overall play of the defense, of which it's difficult to say he's helping.

    Sherman is more or less eliminating one side of the field. As of right now, REPEATEDLY the other side is getting man handled. Next season, however, assuming Sherman remains and remains at about his at least above average play, if he is paired with someone else who is an upgrade over what is presently there, then he will be quite worth the investment.

    It's a rebuild. Adding one good player ins't going to fix the team. Adding NO good players is definitely not going to fix the team.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:28 pm
  • Popeyejones wrote:Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

    If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.

    While Sherman remains a Niner, there will be many Seahawks fans who want to wish him ill or unnecessarily blame team woes on him, unfortunately.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:49 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:Sherman allowed one catch for 10 yards and had an illegal contact penalty called against him.

    If he's the reason the 9ers D gave up 33 points I dont understand football.



    This has always been the debate with Sherman.

    Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

    His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

    I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.


    Oh, I'm with you.

    I used to get a ton of crap here for saying I thought Pat Peterson was better than Sherman even though his stats were worse because what Peterson was asked to do was much harder than what Sherman is asked to do.

    That's a "who's the best of the best?" debate, though.

    Sherman doesn't move around, but he also controls his side of the field. And quite frankly, if you have a player that can take a side of the field away entirely and the other side gets picked on, that's not an argument against the controlled side of the field, it's an argument against the disastrous play on the other side.

    Having a guy like Sherman locking down one side of the field exposes the other side for who they are.



    What I'm saying is on a very poor defense like the 9ers have, is he having that much of a good impact? How many times was a CB with half the physicality, technical skill and experience find himself matched up with the Packers best WR last night while Sherman got the 3rd/4th WR because he was on his side?

    Do you think the 9ers wouldve been better last night if Adams (Packers clear #1) was matched up with Sherman?

    Folks are pointing to stats that basically say Sherman isnt getting challenged. But the most important stat is the overall play of the defense, of which it's difficult to say he's helping.


    You're asking two different questions.

    One question is if Sherman would be an overall better player if he could play at the same level while shadowing the opponent's #1 receiver. The answer to that question is obvious, and is yes.

    The other question is if the 49ers defense would overall be better if they had a less talented player than Sherman playing cornerback. The answer to that question is obvious, and is no.

    To put it back into Seahawks terms, Shaquill Griffin doesn't shadow and is the Seahawks best cornerback. What you're arguing is that the Seahwks would have a better defense if they benched Shaquill Griffin because he's good at his job.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:10 pm
  • What if they had Patrick Peterson on the other side?
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Re: Sherman So Far
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm
  • All I know is that LOB v2 is performing at high level without Sherm, the current young v2 does not facing age related injury risk and age related erosion of skill, or weekly heck daily drama. So, I am good with what we got.

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Re: Sherman So Far
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:54 am
  • Popeyejones wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:

    This has always been the debate with Sherman.

    Is he "playing well" by not giving up catches but not matching himself with the opponent's best WRs? His limitations allow teams to scheme against him, and the 9ers are suffering, quite clearly, by how many points they are giving up with him on the field.

    His stats are misleading. He's not giving up any yards per attempt because noone feels the need to challenge him when the other side of the field is basically wide open.

    I having nothing against Sherman, but this has always been part of the debate of his greatness.


    Oh, I'm with you.

    I used to get a ton of crap here for saying I thought Pat Peterson was better than Sherman even though his stats were worse because what Peterson was asked to do was much harder than what Sherman is asked to do.

    That's a "who's the best of the best?" debate, though.

    Sherman doesn't move around, but he also controls his side of the field. And quite frankly, if you have a player that can take a side of the field away entirely and the other side gets picked on, that's not an argument against the controlled side of the field, it's an argument against the disastrous play on the other side.

    Having a guy like Sherman locking down one side of the field exposes the other side for who they are.



    What I'm saying is on a very poor defense like the 9ers have, is he having that much of a good impact? How many times was a CB with half the physicality, technical skill and experience find himself matched up with the Packers best WR last night while Sherman got the 3rd/4th WR because he was on his side?

    Do you think the 9ers wouldve been better last night if Adams (Packers clear #1) was matched up with Sherman?

    Folks are pointing to stats that basically say Sherman isnt getting challenged. But the most important stat is the overall play of the defense, of which it's difficult to say he's helping.


    You're asking two different questions.

    One question is if Sherman would be an overall better player if he could play at the same level while shadowing the opponent's #1 receiver. The answer to that question is obvious, and is yes.

    The other question is if the 49ers defense would overall be better if they had a less talented player than Sherman playing cornerback. The answer to that question is obvious, and is no.

    To put it back into Seahawks terms, Shaquill Griffin doesn't shadow and is the Seahawks best cornerback. What you're arguing is that the Seahwks would have a better defense if they benched Shaquill Griffin because he's good at his job.


    I m asking one question:

    The 9ers D sucks. Sherman is sitting on one side of the field. Noone is throwing at him because they dont have to. So his stats are inflated while the rest of the defense struggles. Shaquill Griffin is not Richard Sherman, and noone on here is pretending he is. He's also getting thrown at. So the comparisons are not applicable.

    I know that if Sherman shadowed the other team's best receiver his stats would go down, alot.

    The question is whether that would benefit the 9ers anyways.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:29 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:I m asking one question:

    The 9ers D sucks. Sherman is sitting on one side of the field. Noone is throwing at him because they dont have to. So his stats are inflated while the rest of the defense struggles. Shaquill Griffin is not Richard Sherman, and noone on here is pretending he is. He's also getting thrown at. So the comparisons are not applicable.

    I know that if Sherman shadowed the other team's best receiver his stats would go down, alot.

    The question is whether that would benefit the 9ers anyways.


    Ah okay, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

    And yeah, there's no way to really know.

    FWIW though I don't see that probably ever happening because most teams don't have their cornerbacks shadow receivers, and primarily zone teams never really do, as there's not really any point when you're running zone.

    Instead, everyone puts their best CB at LCB because most QBs are right handed and it's easier for right handed QBs to throw to the right side rather than across their bodies to their left side.

    This why the Hawks moved Griffin from exclusively playing RCB last year when they had Sherman to exclusively playing LCB this year now that he's their best CB.

    Likewise, save for the very few and elite primarily man-cover corners who may shadow a team's #1, it's just generally believed that you don't want to have someone inverting what they're doing all the time. It's the exact same logic that keeps teams from inverting their right and left offensive tackles from game to game as based on where their opponent's best pass rusher primarily lines up.



    Sorry for the misunderstanding in what you were saying.



    Also, slightly OT, but the 9ers defense doesn't totally suck to the degree that it looks on the surface. They're middle of the pack in yards per game and yards per play, which are the stats that stay stable.

    They look awful though because they're 4th worst in points per game given up. In the long run it's pretty weird for a defense to be average in yards per game and yards per play but to be way towards the bottom in points.

    You can explain it though using the stats that tend to be unstable over time: the 9ers are last in the league in takeaways (they have the least takeaways), and second to last in the league in giveaways (they have the second most giveaways), and as a result have the worst turnover margin in the NFL. That means that the likely reason they're giving more points than their other defensive stats would suggest is that their defense is playing on atyipically shorter fields (2nd in the league in giveaways) and also not getting turnover luck on defense.

    Not even taking health into consideration, I think we're taking what's probably a below average defense (think around 20-22 or so) that due to small sample sizes and random variance looks like a 28-32 defense.

    EDIT: Yeah, just checked. They're 32nd in the NFL for average starting field position on defense.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:36 pm
  • Say what you want, but even Aaron Rodgers didn't test him.

    Yeah, half of that is how bad the guy on the other side is. But half of it is because Sherman is still sneaky good.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/p ... 2a0a240613

    "Veteran cornerback Richard Sherman again was avoided for most of the night, allowing just one catch for 10 yards. Coming into the game, Sherman sported some eye-popping stats, as he allowed just one reception every 146 coverage snaps and a minuscule 0.12 yards per cover snap through Week 5. These numbers are unlikely to hold up over the course of the season, but he’s been the definition of a shutdown corner in 2018."



    He's at least in the middle of the pack still. I'd argue is better than average at minimum. But the defensive backfield is like the OL: it only takes one weak link in the chain to break. (sidenote: maybe THAT was the Ace in the Hole Sherman had when he negotiated his own contract... maybe he knew the other cbs were so bad no one would test him)
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Re: Sherman So Far
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:14 pm
  • Again.. its hard to determine how good sherman is in that context.

    Rodgers threw for 425 yards and 2 TDs on 46 pass attempts without once throwing at sherman?

    Its not a question of avoiding sherman. Its just picking the least resistance.

    Im sure hes middle of the pack atleast. Just think the stats being used here regarding his impact only tell half the story.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:31 am
  • Can someone check Sherman's stats? I read somewhere or heard from somewhere that when he's being targeted, he gives up a bunch of yards. Only one I remember was Diggs.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:33 am
  • All I know is that Julio ownes Sherman. LOL
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Re: Sherman So Far
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:36 am
  • 5_Golden_Rings wrote:Say what you want, but even Aaron Rodgers didn't test him.

    Yeah, half of that is how bad the guy on the other side is. But half of it is because Sherman is still sneaky good.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/p ... 2a0a240613

    "Veteran cornerback Richard Sherman again was avoided for most of the night, allowing just one catch for 10 yards. Coming into the game, Sherman sported some eye-popping stats, as he allowed just one reception every 146 coverage snaps and a minuscule 0.12 yards per cover snap through Week 5. These numbers are unlikely to hold up over the course of the season, but he’s been the definition of a shutdown corner in 2018."



    He's at least in the middle of the pack still. I'd argue is better than average at minimum. But the defensive backfield is like the OL: it only takes one weak link in the chain to break. (sidenote: maybe THAT was the Ace in the Hole Sherman had when he negotiated his own contract... maybe he knew the other cbs were so bad no one would test him)


    Aaron Rodgers didn't have to test him, because the Whiners secondary sucks that bad. Hell, even the Bills were able to get a pick off of Rodgers this season.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:42 am
  • poly1274 wrote:Can someone check Sherman's stats? I read somewhere or heard from somewhere that when he's being targeted, he gives up a bunch of yards. Only one I remember was Diggs.



    He has been targeted 10 times and given up 2 receptions for 26 yards.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:42 pm
  • It's like Popeye said, he isn't targeted much when he is in games, but it is also true that he's not been in several games including today's.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:31 pm
  • SantaClaraHawk wrote:It's like Popeye said, he isn't targeted much when he is in games, but it is also true that he's not been in several games including today's.


    He's missed 2.5 games, so he's played 4.5.
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Re: Sherman So Far
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:43 pm
  • We'll have to see beyond 4.5. People have avoided Sherm due to his record with the Seahawks, but with his recent injury plus his enhancements for playing, he will probably come back in not 100 percent, and be targeted.
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