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PFT: Having 3 NFL African American coaches is shameful

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  • Popeyejones wrote:
    For the NFL what this would mean is that for coordinator and head coach positions, instead of the Rooney Rule the NFL would offer to pay (say) 20% of the median coaches salary for teams when they hire non-white coaches and coordinators. It's a direct incentive to do so. .


    I don't think this would work in the NFL. Money (at least at the level of coaches salary) really isn't a huge incentive for owners, wins are the incentive.

    If I could guarantee to owners, that hiring this one specific position coach will guarantee 1 additional win every year, I am certain that almost all of them would be happy to pay an additional million per year in salary, or more.

    Obviously, you can't offer any kind of additional win guarantee.

    What might work is to offer a salary cap adjustment for diversity hires. You could offer a 1 million increase in cap for every minority coach that was hired. That would be very effective, and would put any racist owner in the interesting conundrum of deciding whether the additional cap space is worth hiring someone who he believes is a less capable hire.



    *disclaimer, this is only for the sake of argument, I'm not saying this should be done, I'm just saying what would be effective in getting more minority candidates hired.
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  • As much as I agree that it's weird that no one's interviewed a guy like Eric Bieniemy, the offensive coordinator of arguably the most dynamic offense in the entire league for two straight years now............the Rooney Rule is a textbook example of how you can't legislate or force businesses to hire who they don't want to hire.

    I don't know if it's racism, or just a bunch of closed minded owners and GM's that just keep hiring the same guys cause that's their comfort zone, hiring who they already have relationships with, or who they feel safe hiring.

    Either way, the answer is not to hold a gun to owner's heads forcing them to go through the motions of interviewing minority candidates when you know damn well they're not going to hire that person. The answer is to get more minority coaches and coordinators in the NFL and college, so that there's more of them coming up through the ranks to be considered once they're successful.

    More clinics, more recruiting, get some of that NFL money going towards making coach, coordinator and even intern jobs more attractive to minorities, so again more are in the league in general coming up through the ranks.
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  • Mindsink wrote:
    Resentment. This is key. And this is why the Rooney Rule will never work in the long run.

    This is a no-win situation. How do you possibly expand or change the Rooney rule to get more black coaches hired, short of FORCING these hires?

    Bias (racial or otherwise) may be a dirty word but this is reality. You think Christian McCaffrey's success will create a flood of opportunities for white skill position players from the pee wee league up? No. He's an anomaly. Black kids will always be seen as better athletes, because on average, this is what's been proven for decades.

    White coaches will always be seen as better, for whatever reason(s), unless proven otherwise. Look at how long it took for even black QBs to break the stereotype. And even today, it's hard to look at a black QB and not assume his athleticism isn't the key to his success. And when a white QB has athleticism (e.g. Josh Allen), people are surprised.


    OK, but you have to look at why there's so much resentment over the Rooney Rule. All it is is a mandate to interview one person who is not a white male for only the highest coaching position. Like I said, there are "rules" that only white coaches get (like outright nepotism) that NO ONE seems to have a problem with even as they are blatant, let alone the advantage created by growing up and being socialized/accepted in the white boy network that gives you these intangibles like "fit" that apparently Judge and Rhule had in spades over Bienemy, Richard, David Shaw.

    I contest that "white coaches will always be seen as better." Nope, white male coaches get vastly more opportunities than their minority counterparts from literally birth, and no one has a issue--but they're upset because a rule makes teams at least talk to one person who's not a white male for the highest coaching seat only.

    What is needed, besides the Rooney Rule, are diversity training opportunities along the pipeline. And for people getting salty over the prospect of the league subsidizing a few internships or minority hires, well, then at least protest egregious crap when it goes the other way. Steve Belichick, Nate Carroll, just happen to be the "best men" for the job irrespective of that they've only been on teams headed by their dads, with no consideration that their dad's stature had everything to do with it because "black white polkadot purple?" Get out of here.
    SantaClaraHawk
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  • SantaClaraHawk wrote:OK, but you have to look at why there's so much resentment over the Rooney Rule. All it is is a mandate to interview one person who is not a white male for only the highest coaching position. Like I said, there are "rules" that only white coaches get (like outright nepotism) that NO ONE seems to have a problem with even as they are blatant, let alone the advantage created by growing up and being socialized/accepted in the white boy network that gives you these intangibles like "fit" that apparently Judge and Rhule had in spades over Bienemy, Richard, David Shaw.

    I contest that "white coaches will always be seen as better." Nope, white male coaches get vastly more opportunities than their minority counterparts from literally birth, and no one has a issue--but they're upset because a rule makes teams at least talk to one person who's not a white male for the highest coaching seat only.

    What is needed, besides the Rooney Rule, are diversity training opportunities along the pipeline. And for people getting salty over the prospect of the league subsidizing a few internships or minority hires, well, then at least protest egregious crap when it goes the other way. Steve Belichick, Nate Carroll, just happen to be the "best men" for the job irrespective of that they've only been on teams headed by their dads, with no consideration that their dad's stature had everything to do with it because "black white polkadot purple?" Get out of here.


    And here's the fundamental point where we disagree. I am not disagreeing with the existence of the bias. Where I disagree is that whether or not this is an issue that needs to be addressed. I say no, it is not.

    This is a topic that goes way beyond the NFL and coaching hires. Why do [insert minority group] need more representation...in ANYTHING? Is there a coalition of black coaches who are picketing NFL front offices for equality? How about Hispanic coaches? Pacific Islanders? I mean, we had many outstanding HoF players from the Pacific Islands with ZERO representation in the coaching ranks. Why no outrage there?

    No. The vast majority of it comes from talking heads who believe they need to voice outrage at racial disparity (particularly when it comes to African Americans) in the name of social justice.

    You know where there's the greatest racial disparity? It is with players, particularly skill position players. Why does nobody have a problem with the league having greater than 90% black Wide Receivers and Running Backs? Yet there are always race bean counters keeping score of how many black QBs there are.

    Answer me this... if the NFL were 100% black, would you have a problem with it? If not, then why not?
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  • I mean, it's totally logical that all the older white owners are like "ehhh, I'll take a lesser white coach candidate rather than a better black one who will get me a Lombardi".

    Makes perfect sense. I'm sure that's exactly how it is and why we need the Rooney Rule and more. I bet Paul Allen was trying to get one of our white players to hoist the Lombardi after Super Bowl 48 rather than Wilson, too.
    RolandDeschain
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:I bet Paul Allen was trying to get one of our white players to hoist the Lombardi after Super Bowl 48 rather than Wilson, too.


    Come on now. Wilson is practically white. ;)
    Mindsink
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  • Mindsink wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:I bet Paul Allen was trying to get one of our white players to hoist the Lombardi after Super Bowl 48 rather than Wilson, too.


    Come on now. Wilson is practically white. ;)

    Lmao. He did get accused of being an Oreo, IIRC.

    Fine - since we're just making ridiculous crap up anyways, let's go with Paul Allen tried to stop Sherman and Bennett from touching the Lombardi.
    RolandDeschain
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Mindsink wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:I bet Paul Allen was trying to get one of our white players to hoist the Lombardi after Super Bowl 48 rather than Wilson, too.


    Come on now. Wilson is practically white. ;)

    Lmao. He did get accused of being an Oreo, IIRC.

    Fine - since we're just making ridiculous crap up anyways, let's go with Paul Allen tried to stop Sherman and Bennett from touching the Lombardi.


    I thought it was "cornball brother". But either way, yeah, he's basically Carlton Banks. :)
    Mindsink
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  • Mindsink wrote:The mere existence of the Rooney Rule is racist itself, and undermines the legitimacy of ANY non-white coach hire. Quite frankly, it's insulting to minority coaching candidates.

    You're telling me that in this day and age, and with billions of dollars at stake, that coaching hires are overwhelmingly favoring "white" men because of racism? Then how do you explain the overwhelming percentage of black players, particularly in skill positions?

    GTFO with that crap!

    Those people who are keeping score based on skin color are the real racists, and THAT is what's shameful here.


    100% everything is about race these days.. It's exhausting ....
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  • Waiting for the NFL WOKE moment now.
    chris98251
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  • Best comment. The thread his indeed an eye-opener.
    kobebryant wrote:Frtiz Pollard was the first black coach, his last season was 1925; the next time a black Head Coach was hired was Art Shell in 1989! That's insane!
    Being the Offensive Coordinator for Andy Reid was a pipeline to being a Head Coach elsewhere (Pederson and Nagy); but not for Eric Bieniemy, not when it was the black guys' turn. Being the Defensive Coordinator for Pete Carroll was a pipeline to being a Head Coach elsewhere (Bradley & Quinn); but again, not for the black guys.
    Jim Caldwell had a winning record with Detroit! Detroit! That is so hard to do. But Matt Patricia keeps his job no matter how crappy he performs.
    It's all just so blatant and disheartening.
    joeseahawks
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  • What's gotten a lot of people looking at this again is probably the Judge hire.

    First, As someone hired w/o being a O/D coordinator, you'd expect him to have done excellent with his units. ST was a revolving door of multiple kickers. We all know what happened with WR.

    Second, he's not exactly a PR communicator as Rhule is, see here: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... is-hiring/

    If Judge had been black, the mainstream would have been full of commentators claiming strict tokenism for this hire and saying that's why the Rooney Rule failed. What everyone expects is ALREADY that weird hires like this can't be in favor of the black guy, because that would be obvious tokenism. In fact, the only black coaches we expect to get an interview come out of the upper ranks. Hell, the Raiders interviewed their own TE coach on their way to the Gruden hire, and the reaction was that this was pure "tokenism," followed by a modification to the RR to say teams can't consider nonwhite folks on their team itself for that rule.

    The rule itself exists because the league itself didn't want stuff to come out in litigation, and because the league realized that the look of having mostly white overlords overseeing mostly black players was a mostly disastrous look for fans and players themselves. That plus the emerging trend of ex-players joining the ranks should have resulted in more organic black coaching interviews and hires by now without a rule forcing them to at least sit down with a water to talk to one person who wasn't a white guy--but it ain't happening yet.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:As much as I agree that it's weird that no one's interviewed a guy like Eric Bieniemy, the offensive coordinator of arguably the most dynamic offense in the entire league for two straight years now............

    Pretty sure I saw a clip of him saying he had 3 interviews in the bye week and rumors that he's Cleveland's fallback if they can't land McDaniels.
    Osprey
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  • With today comes news that Freddie Kitchens is expected to interview for a position w/the Giants because he and Judge knew each other from college and were both under Parcells: https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2020/1/9/ ... all-giants

    So you'd expect black ex-HCs like Lewis or Hue Jackson to get similar chances, to end up on NFL teams with at least a job title. After all, Tomsula got that, and it looks like Kitchens will too. The article above implies that it is the norm. If it is, it should be the same norm for black HCs, which it isn't.

    Stephen A (whom I normally don't agree with) is right here:

    https://brobible.com/sports/article/ste ... oney-rule/
    Last edited by SantaClaraHawk on Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    SantaClaraHawk
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  • SantaClaraHawk wrote:With today comes news that Freddie Kitchens is expected to interview for a position w/the Giants because he and Judge knew each other from college and were both under Parcells: https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2020/1/9/ ... all-giants

    So you'd expect black ex-HCs like Lewis or Hue Jackson to get similar chances, to end up on NFL teams with at least a job title. After all, Tomsula got that, and it looks like Kitchens will too. The article above implies that it is the norm. If it is, it should be the same norm for black HCs, which it isn't.


    I agree with a lot of the points you've made in this thread, but think you're making sweeping statements here.
    Just a couple examples sans data mining:
    Todd Bowles & Romeo Crennel back to DC after bombing out as HC.
    *same for Ray Rhodes (shame on me for forgetting that one considering the Hawks connection)
    Osprey
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  • Osprey wrote:I agree with a lot of the points you've made in this thread, but think you're making sweeping statements here.
    Just a couple examples sans data mining:
    Todd Bowles & Romeo Crennel back to DC after bombing out as HC.
    *same for Ray Rhodes (shame on me for forgetting that one considering the Hawks connection)


    This is a legit criticism given the sample sizes are so small.

    But even so, seeing not only 5 of 8 black HCs in 2018 flame out plus them not all getting retread opportunities leads to the perception that something's awry. Because we can all name examples of whites who ascend to HC levels w/o going through the "channels," nearly all of whom if failed get a job title with another NFL team, or a HC/coordinator with a big college.

    I think it interesting get bent over what's actually a very modest rule (just interview one minority) but don't acknowledge all the favoritism/bias what have you when it goes the other way toward white coaches:

    McCarthy. Failed w/GB and Aaron Rogers. Not a "youth movement" coach. Spent a season amassing an untested model based on analytics, which is what got Peter King out there, which is what got him hired. If analytics are the answer, why isn't Cynthia Frelund getting offers at at least lower coaching levels, given that she developed the statistical model that the NFL network uses?

    Judge. Failed both his positional responsibilities (ST and WR) almost as much as possible but still got the job.

    Rhule: I guess a lot of people are high on him for turning around college teams that are on the fringe and training guys who went on to be in NFL. I mean, I would think there should be any number of black guys coaching college by now b/c of the player recruitment factor, but I don't follow much college and can't really say.

    Then there's Rivera. Like Lewis, he was on the Panthers a long time, and took them further into the playoffs than Lewis did. It's not just that he did this, but that he's not specifically black. Any Rooney Rule favoritism is seen as not applying to him, even though he as a Latino is under Rooney Rule. He is seen more as a Saleh, who being of Arab descent doesn't qualify under federal race-protected class guidelines unlike blacks, Latinos, Asians and Pacific Islanders. I'm not even sure the Rooney Rule would apply to him.

    The Rooney Rule is clumsy, but the resentment it gets for what it mandates (just talk to one nonwhite guy) is unreal especially given how much privilege exists and how it becomes more stark the higher you go.

    True story: My sister's ex got involved in acting coaching the Bohemian Club for a while. For those who don't know, the Bohemian Club is a social club whose ostensible purpose is to have a couple plays that they put on for themselves every year. You cannot get tickets to these plays. If you are female, you are not allowed in this club officially.

    What this really is, is a draw for magnates of industry to gather at Healdsburg (Sonoma County wine country) to whoop it around a campfire. Dude goes out there, and there's people yelling "BILL GATES POOSEY" because he's not draining the beer bong fast enough or whatever. The 2.0 of this in Silicon Valley are $ex parties where women (usually realtors or personal trainers) are brought in, dosed with MDMA, and expected to do two or three hole performances because after all, we're all having a good time. Even though afterward, these VCs (mostly white and Indian) tell the media bluntly afterward that they'd never hire a chick who who** herself out like this.

    When me and my white friend go out, he's the one they first talk to, despite me having the double Ivy education and the paid off house. Pretty much every nonwhite person has examples like this. We are taught and told that this is just normative. We (or at least I) get probably more irritated than most when there's a minority who attempts to abuse the process (i.e. Colin Kaepernick) by attempting to bring in a Nike crew at the last minute, and then selling shoes to woke mostly white people as a result. We know there's BS on the other side, but that doesn't preclude us seeing the BS that already occurs privileging white people on top of a minority stack. We all know where we measure up in that.
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  • Forcing it for the sake of having it accomplishes nothing. The intentions of the Rooney Rule are great the results are expected.
    MD5eahawks
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  • I keep hoping this obsession with race and identitarianism is just a phase for the Millennial generation, but alas, you're all proving to be hopeless.
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  • It's not a millennial thing. It's more like the NFL needs to correct this because of optics.

    The gravitation of the league being 70 percent black happened organically. It's an interesting question as to why, but as it is, as a result, all viewers are rooting for African Americans, many with African American sounding names, many of whom said viewers would have avoided on the street as opposed to getting their autograph.

    So with that, you'd expect to see the coaching ranks trend toward more AA coaches, especially given that ex-players are gravitating that way.

    Why isn't that happening? I think it has a lot to do with HS and college and family backgrounds. If you're coming from say a Liberty City and from a broken home, standard interview-polishing is less an ingrained thing.
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  • The NFL is the ultimate ground for nepotism. NFL owners know it and want to keep it that way. Tons of people benefit from it and want to keep it that way forever. But consistently lie (or play dumb) to justify it. But, nothing new in America...
    To those who wonder why 70% of players are Black ... all players jobs are posted years in advance (it is called the draft, free agency). Everyone knows the requirements (run fast, tackle, catch, block, ...etc) and the dates when the players will be selected. There is at least 3-year college-tapes on players, High school tapes, combine, interviews, Wonderlic tests results, ..Teams even talk to player's parents, friends, churches, coaches, know player's credit scores ... etc.
    There is no secret about it.

    Most jobs in the back office of the NFL and teams are not posted anywhere. Hiring processes / procedures are dubious at best. Maybe someone can tell me when and where Pete Carroll(I'm a big fan of his) posted the jobs he gave to his family members and friends. How about the Shanahans? And the Belichick? And the Grudens? And the list goes on and on. I want to know who interviews for those jobs. How they scored on those interviews and how the decisions were made to give them jobs and not others. It is all subjective. Generally, people from the same circles benefit from those jobs. Even if they did post those jobs, they most likely just did it for formalities. It is not different than in a lots of places in corporate America. I used to work there. I know.

    The ideas that Blacks aren't interested in coaching or executives jobs (and need incentives to apply for these jobs) are pure lies. How can we justify that people who have played the game don't understand it enough to teach it? It doesn't even make sense... When I watch various networks (NFL Networks, ESPN, Fox,...), I see lots of former players who are well spoken, provide great analysis, understand the nuances of the game ... etc. But somehow, those guys are too dumb to coach.
    When a Black coach "fails", it is generally seen in certain circles as the failure of a whole race. And very few will ever get a second chance. As soon as McCarty was hired, he turns around and hire Nolan. Apparently, Nolan gave McCarty a job 15 years ago.
    joeseahawks
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  • The same people that b!@ch about less African American head coaches than they would like to see and offer stupid solutions are the same ones that don't mention the much more disproportionate majority of African American players on the field.

    Should we apply the Rooney Rule to the draft?

    Of course not. Everyone wants who they think is the best. It is the same with coaches. SJWs need to BTFO.
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  • This YouTuber “living room gangster” made a good argument why there is not a lot of black coaches. Never thought of it the way he did. I would embed the video but don’t have time to look it up.


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