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SB54 Officiating, Game-Steering Calls Favoring KC?

Discuss any and all NFL-related topics. Ex-Seahawks fall into NFL topics. LANGUAGE: PG-13
  • OK, so the thread title was cherry-picking. Against SF. Let's be fair and discuss...
    SB54 Officiating, Game-Steering Calls Favoring KC or SF

    A Niner fan alleged there was an uncalled hold on Nick Bosa on the big KC 48-yard completion on 3rd and 15. I suggested, "to receive full and proper ridicule, (SF fan) should post a thread like "SB54 Officiating, Game-Steering Calls Favoring KC" . I decided to post such a thread. So, here we are. I think it would be entertaining and instructive to review and discuss potentially game-changing calls and NON-CALLS, favoring EITHER team, KC or SF.

    Suggested rules of engagement are:
    * Brief description of the call, including the game situation, why the call was incorrect, and the impact of the call on the game.
    * Actual evidence, including video clips and/or stills that clearly show the missed call, or why the called infraction should not have been called.

    Let's start with this one
    * With seconds remaining in the first half, George Kittle caught a long pass from Jimmy G that brought the 49ers into chip-shot FG range. However, Kittle was flagged for Offensive Pass interference, and the play was wiped out. This cost the 49ers a near-certain 3 points. In my opinion, this was a clear and obvious call by the interpretation of the rule, and the ref who called it was in perfect position to see it, immediately threw the flag upon seeing it. Conclusion: Proper call, no steering. Additional conclusion: by those standards, Kyle Rudolph TD catch in Vikings-Saints playoff game should have been OPI also. Oh well.
    Video:
    https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/02/2020-s ... ce-rudolph


    The hold on Bosa absolutely could have happened. Let's see actual evidence. There was also an uncalled delay-of-game IIRC on SF, but no biggie. Maybe a lined-up-offsides on KC that was ignored even. Who needs Dee Ford!

    Got some other game-steering calls by those evil refs? Let's see them!
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  • Washington49er wrote:https://twitter.com/i/status/1224158737776238593


    So where's the hold??!! Show us!!
    If in fact the perceived uncalled hold on this play is your beef. This clip shows nothing particularly compelling. Break it down for us. I, for one, promise to do my best to be open-minded and objective and even civil. (mileage with other posters may vary, but we can always hope) Inquiring minds want to know. After all, us Hawk fans suffered through the phantom hold on Sean Locklear that cost us, in part SBXL vs. the Stealers. We know the pain of bogus holding calls/non-calls in the big game. (We also know the pain of questionable/bogus OPI calls, courtesy of DJack's TD catch that was waved off in SBXL.)

    EDIT: OK, I see you added a bit more detail later. Still more would help...
    olyfan63
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  • olyfan63 wrote:
    Washington49er wrote:https://twitter.com/i/status/1224158737776238593


    So where's the hold??!! Show us!!
    If in fact the perceived uncalled hold on this play is your beef. This clip shows nothing particularly compelling. Break it down for us. I, for one, promise to do my best to be open-minded and objective and even civil. (mileage with other posters may vary, but we can always hope) Inquiring minds want to know. After all, us Hawk fans suffered through the phantom hold on Sean Locklear that cost us, in part SBXL vs. the Stealers.


    If you can't see the hold you're straight up blind. If your just trying to compare the Hawks loss to this one then this thread and discussion is just a waste of time. Should have been a penalty making it 3rd and 24 not 1st down, period! Huge momentum change.

    I'm sure you can watch a replay of the game. Try watching without your neon green and blue glasses. The Chiefs were holding both on O and D all night and not one call either way.

    It was pretty clear all week who the NFL wanted to win, from the whole KC not being a SB in 50 years down to the only showing KC fans after a KC score, or the only showing 1st half highlights of KC after the half even though the score was tied. KC couldn't buy a 3rd down conversion until the 49ers went up by 10.
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  • Washington49er wrote:If you can't see the hold you're straight up blind. If your just trying to compare the Hawks loss to this one then this thread and discussion is just a waste of time. Should have been a penalty making it 3rd and 24 not 1st down, period! Huge momentum change.

    I'm sure you can watch a replay of the game. Try watching without your neon green and blue glasses. The Chiefs were holding both on O and D all night and not one call either way.
    -snip-


    Can you make your point without name-calling, please, or is your point so weak and/or the situation so emotional that's all you can come up with? Maybe take off your red and gold glasses before alleging Seahawks bias on mine. What's the interpretation? Got some clearer shots you've run across? I've seen a couple different "expert" opinions on this, and don't have a clear opinion one way or another.

    NFL OLine holding has definitions and interpretations, like all rules do. I don't really know NFL holding rules/interpretation beyond a surface level. Most fans don't. HS and College may have slightly different rules and interpretations. How is this *clearly* an "NFL hold"?

    SB Officiating has an impact. In LIV and in XL. This thread is about SB54. XL has been rehashed endlessly. Old news. LIV is still fresh and raw.

    If you can't make a solid point on this "hold", are there other plays with uncalled holds on the SF DL you can point out?
    Last edited by olyfan63 on Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
    olyfan63
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  • This was in the previous thread, but I'll play along. :)

    https://www.49ers.com/video/49ers-chief ... homes-sack

    #91 (Armstead?) is WAY offsides, 49ers get a sack that leads to a second and very long and (if I remember correctly) Mahomes throwing an interception on the next play.

    I'm not saying the officiating was perfect, but it was not one sided by any stretch.
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  • Torc wrote:This was in the previous thread, but I'll play along. :)

    https://www.49ers.com/video/49ers-chief ... homes-sack

    #91 (Armstead?) is WAY offsides, 49ers get a sack that leads to a second and very long and (if I remember correctly) Mahomes throwing an interception on the next play.

    I'm not saying the officiating was perfect, but it was not one sided by any stretch.


    Oooh, shades of Dee Ford! That blue line sure does show Armstead's hand lined up in an offsides position. Sack should have been negated and KC awarded 5 yards. A sack is a drive-killer, difference-making play.

    Running score: SF +1 on officiating favorable steering calls, KC 0.

    I have no idea if the refs simply missed this or consider it such a ticky-tack violation they decided not to call it. I'm going with "simply missed it" for now.
    olyfan63
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  • We can b!@ch about non calls on holds on both sides of the line every play almost, we seen the 49ers tackle Clowney many times in our games.

    It can be frustrating yes, it is almost every game, the clock run out to zero was pretty bad also. The Pass interference on Kittle while a dagger in the heart was pretty obvious due to his extended arm to get separation. That was just a bad situational play, he needs to learn how to use his forearm better and watch a bunch of Gronk film.

    Over all they let the guys play for the most part I though, would rather have a few no calls then a bunch of ticky tacky maybe or not penalty calls.
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  • Washington49er wrote:
    olyfan63 wrote:
    Washington49er wrote:https://twitter.com/i/status/1224158737776238593


    So where's the hold??!! Show us!!
    If in fact the perceived uncalled hold on this play is your beef. This clip shows nothing particularly compelling. Break it down for us. I, for one, promise to do my best to be open-minded and objective and even civil. (mileage with other posters may vary, but we can always hope) Inquiring minds want to know. After all, us Hawk fans suffered through the phantom hold on Sean Locklear that cost us, in part SBXL vs. the Stealers.


    If you can't see the hold you're straight up blind. If your just trying to compare the Hawks loss to this one then this thread and discussion is just a waste of time. Should have been a penalty making it 3rd and 24 not 1st down, period! Huge momentum change.

    I'm sure you can watch a replay of the game. Try watching without your neon green and blue glasses. The Chiefs were holding both on O and D all night and not one call either way.

    It was pretty clear all week who the NFL wanted to win, from the whole KC not being a SB in 50 years down to the only showing KC fans after a KC score, or the only showing 1st half highlights of KC after the half even though the score was tied. KC couldn't buy a 3rd down conversion until the 49ers went up by 10.

    On that pass..I saw the hold and I couldn't believe it wasn't called.
    Yes I realize there is holding going on all game but on a big play like that
    it needs to be called.
    No doubt there was a little steering going on...It wasn't like our Steeler SB
    but it was there.
    IndyHawk
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  • Someone remind me, how many holds were the whiners called for? It's almost as if they let them play.
    UK_Seahawk
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  • UK_Seahawk wrote:Someone remind me, how many holds were the whiners called for? It's almost as if they let them play.

    They were not calling offensive holding on either team.

    I find it highly hypocritical but not surprising that the same Niner folks that said that Holister wasn’t interfered with on a game changing no call here in Seattle a few weeks ago are NOW complaining about officiating.
    Sports Hernia
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  • Sports Hernia wrote:
    UK_Seahawk wrote:Someone remind me, how many holds were the whiners called for? It's almost as if they let them play.

    They were not calling offensive holding on either team.

    I find it highly hypocritical but not surprising that the same Niner folks that said that Holister wasn’t interfered with on a game changing no call here in Seattle a few weeks ago are NOW complaining about officiating.


    I also find it hypocritical that while they'll post vehemently about the lack of holding calls for their team, there's nothing mentioned about there were no holding calls on either team. None...

    and that means that either 9ers fans think their team doesn't hold. Or that the refs just let the teams go at each other without calling anything (which was something that refs across the league started doing about midway through the season).

    Which is it?
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  • Based on how they have called it this year, that OPI call was textbook. I don't get the complaining about that one. The only people who should be complaining about that call are Saints fans who would compare it to the Rudolph TD and throw their arms up in the air.
    HawkRiderFan
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  • The non call on the helmet to helmet on Jimmy G shoulda been flagged. Could of been a gsne changing scenario. I know on the webzone they were calling holding on the line pretty much literally on every snap the next one took.
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  • Watching live I certainly expected there to be a holding penalty on that play.
    KinesProf
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  • I thought the OPI on Kittle at the end of the first half was totally legit. Sorry fellow 9ers fans.

    I was very surprised the very clear hold on Bosa wasn't called on the Hill bomb (when it happened my thought was "whatever, it's coming back anyway"), just as I was very surprised that an equally egregious hold against Armstead wasn't called when the Chiefs were backed up at their goal line and converted a first down on a broken play that only happened because of the hold.

    Because of the blue line I saw both Armstead lined up offsides and the Chiefs player too; I was surprised neither of those were called.

    Overall, however, I don't like playing the game of pretending that NFL officiating is easy (it's the hardest sport to officiate in the world, and it's not close), or that there has ever in the history of the game been a game that both sides agree was perfectly called. :lol:

    As is ALWAYS the case for me, to people complaining about officiating in this game, I say what the hell ever and get over it. One score games (which this effectively was) are coin flips to begin with, and you can't get mad or blame the officials for losing a coin flip. Sorry, I just don't have any interest in that. :lol: :2thumbs:

    The Super Bowl was two very good teams playing a very close game and the favorite edged out the win. That is enough for me.
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  • My biggest problem with refs this whole season is the lack of consistency.

    You either let them play or you make the same calls on both sides.

    Anyone that thinks the league doesn't steer games is in denial.

    Bottom line, if you don't put the score out of reach of the opposition and the refs you could get screwed.
    Washington49er
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  • Washington49er wrote:My biggest problem with refs this whole season is the lack of consistency.

    You either let them play or you make the same calls on both sides.

    Anyone that thinks the league doesn't steer games is in denial.

    Bottom line, if you don't put the score out of reach of the opposition and the refs you could get screwed.


    They were consistent in this game. They let football decide the winner of the superbowl, not tic tacky flags. The 49ers lost a football game fair and square, and the fact that you are whining about refs and insinuating some nutjob conspiracy theory that refs and announcers are paid off for either team to win is why people can't stand niner fans. Whiney babies, or whiner babies I guess.

    You lost a fair game on a neutral field. Man up.
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  • Washington49er wrote:My biggest problem with refs this whole season is the lack of consistency.

    You either let them play or you make the same calls on both sides.

    Anyone that thinks the league doesn't steer games is in denial.

    Bottom line, if you don't put the score out of reach of the opposition and the refs you could get screwed.


    There is not "consistency" for one big reason and one small reason.

    SMALL REASON:

    (1) Football is an insanely hard game to officiate. Pretending as if you'll ever live in a world in which every call is perfectly consistent even within games is the cross you've chosen to bear, but it's a really stupid one.

    BIG REASON:

    (2) The people making the claim that what they want is consistency are universally full of sh!t. They're fans. They don't want consistency, they want favortism.

    You want proof?

    Here it is:

    You're a person who claims to want consistency, so tell us, when is the last time that you were up in arms and complaining about a lack of consistency that favored the 49ers and caused them to win a game they should have lost? You'e never done it before, because you actually don't care about consistency: you're a 49ers fan and you just want the 49ers to win. That's the long and short of it.

    Find me a Seahawks fan here who has ever complained and been upset about how BS it is that the Seahawks won because of inconsistent officiating. You can't find one. That fan literally doesn't exist here.


    The problem is that officiating in the NFL is very hard, and the even bigger problem is that fans act like fans and are generally full of sh!t.

    El Fin. :lol: :lol:
    Popeyejones
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  • Popeyejones wrote:I thought the OPI on Kittle at the end of the first half was totally legit. Sorry fellow 9ers fans.

    I was very surprised the very clear hold on Bosa wasn't called on the Hill bomb (when it happened my thought was "whatever, it's coming back anyway"), just as I was very surprised that an equally egregious hold against Armstead wasn't called when the Chiefs were backed up at their goal line and converted a first down on a broken play that only happened because of the hold.

    Because of the blue line I saw both Armstead lined up offsides and the Chiefs player too; I was surprised neither of those were called.

    Overall, however, I don't like playing the game of pretending that NFL officiating is easy (it's the hardest sport to officiate in the world, and it's not close), or that there has ever in the history of the game been a game that both sides agree was perfectly called. :lol:

    As is ALWAYS the case for me, to people complaining about officiating in this game, I say what the hell ever and get over it. One score games (which this effectively was) are coin flips to begin with, and you can't get mad or blame the officials for losing a coin flip. Sorry, I just don't have any interest in that. :lol: :2thumbs:

    The Super Bowl was two very good teams playing a very close game and the favorite edged out the win. That is enough for me.



    I think this is a very fair assessment. I also bristle at the "game steering" notions, as if the league is that petty.

    If i'm a 9er fan, i'm upset with the OPI. That's probably it. as you noted, holding calls and other such quick action events are very difficult to call. And it appears that the NFL went into the game with the notion they were going to be very loose with those types of calls. Im certain Chiefs fans have 4-5 gifs of obvious 9er holds that went uncalled.

    The OPI was the only call that didnt seem to fit that narrative. I thought it was too small to call, even if it was "letter of the law"

    All that said, it was a very good game that probably came down to the execution of 3-4 big plays by either team. You look at misses in coverage, an overthrow, etc. that cost one team the initiative at a time when they could have killed it.

    Wash 49er fan has made a concerted effort to bring up the loss to the Patriots and felt it necessary to reference the throw on the goal line. But the Seahawks had the initiative at 24-14, the ball in their hands, in the 4th quarter. There was a miss on 2nd down, and a dropped pass on 3rd down, that would've carried the Hawks into Patriots territory. Those are the types of calls that start the ball rolling the other way.
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  • johnnyfever wrote:
    Washington49er wrote:My biggest problem with refs this whole season is the lack of consistency.

    You either let them play or you make the same calls on both sides.

    Anyone that thinks the league doesn't steer games is in denial.

    Bottom line, if you don't put the score out of reach of the opposition and the refs you could get screwed.


    They were consistent in this game. They let football decide the winner of the superbowl, not tic tacky flags. The 49ers lost a football game fair and square, and the fact that you are whining about refs and insinuating some nutjob conspiracy theory that refs and announcers are paid off for either team to win is why people can't stand niner fans. Whiney babies, or whiner babies I guess.

    You lost a fair game on a neutral field. Man up.

    Devils advocate...explain xl*.
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  • Cyrus12 wrote:
    johnnyfever wrote:
    Washington49er wrote:My biggest problem with refs this whole season is the lack of consistency.

    You either let them play or you make the same calls on both sides.

    Anyone that thinks the league doesn't steer games is in denial.

    Bottom line, if you don't put the score out of reach of the opposition and the refs you could get screwed.


    They were consistent in this game. They let football decide the winner of the superbowl, not tic tacky flags. The 49ers lost a football game fair and square, and the fact that you are whining about refs and insinuating some nutjob conspiracy theory that refs and announcers are paid off for either team to win is why people can't stand niner fans. Whiney babies, or whiner babies I guess.

    You lost a fair game on a neutral field. Man up.

    Devils advocate...explain xl*.


    Explain XL: Hasselbeck illegal block. 'Nuff said. :)


    If someone can show me ANY NFL play other than the Hasselbeck interception where the tackling player was called for an illegal block, my conspiracy belief will take a major blow. I've simply never seen a call like that in 40 years of watching football.
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  • Uncle Si wrote:The OPI was the only call that didnt seem to fit that narrative. I thought it was too small to call, even if it was "letter of the law"


    Yeah, there's a ton of gray area in this stuff, and the way I think about calls isn't binary (that DOES get called, or DOESN'T get called), but rather, how many times out of a 100 does that penalty get called? Once you allow for the variation that exists in the real world into your mental model then all of the BS of fandom starts to melt away.

    For me, Kittle's push off is absolutely a penalty by the letter of the law, and it's a penalty that gets called maybe 60-70% of the time that it happens? How mad can you be about it then?

    But the bigger issue is that fans argue all of this stuff opportunistically.

    By way of example for this case, let's take all the 49ers fans who think it's BS that Kittle was called for OPI in that situation. Okay, apparently they think OPI shouldn't be called strictly. Now of all of those 9ers fans, what % of them ALSO argued that Warner correctly shouldn't have been called for DPI in the endzone against Hollister because Hollister had committed OPI so it was a good no call. 75% of them? 80% of them? 90% of them? It looks like in that case they believe that OPI should be strictly considered, even when it comes to DPI.

    Once you think about it that way, the only obvious conclusion is that at minimum 75% of these people actually don't give a sh!t about OPI and it being called one way or the other: they just want their team to win. And of course they do, because they're fans, and that's what fans want. :lol:

    I'm going after my fellow 9ers fans in this example (and using an example against the Seahawks not only because it was recent but also because I'm on a Seahawks board), but I'm not just kissing ass here: you better believe that I think Seahawks fans are JUST AS FULL OF SH!T on this stuff too. :lol: :2thumbs:
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  • $h!t article. Nothing was steered. Armstead or what ever his name was constantly, lined up in the neutral zone. No flags, Kittle constantly holding for his blocks. Sf got away with a bunch to..









    Oh and Baalke chilling in NY with the review booth doesn’t hurt either I guess. Look. No further than the bear hug hollister got that was never reviewed.



    If you want an example of steering, look no further than SBXL. So get outta here with that bs. Jimmy Carapaplo sucks. Shanny boy blew his wad early and gave up leads in two SBs. Sherm got burned, by hill constantly. And ultimately the 9ers got away from what was working, they went full PC and relied on a weaklink. (Thankfully for us, Wilson’s our stronglink)
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  • Who cares we lost get over it about the refs its the same damn thing every week. This is why the NFL is going downhill cant even go a week without talk about the refs. All this talk and its the same thing every week and nothing is done about it. Cant even celebrate a play because you have to wait 10 seconds to see that there is no yellow. Then you have a big play called back because 2 guys in the back that had nothing to do with the play got caught playing with each others vaginas. Cant even celebrate a win anymore because a ref didnt throw a flag at a certain point of the game that means your win is undeserving and doesnt count anymore. Can't imagine being a Rams fan if they won the superbowl, no one would talk about those clutch 2 50+ yard field goals to tie and win the game or Brees getting intercepted in OT. Instead it would be about the no call PI and the Rams would have an asterisk superbowl forever. And the worst part is the same crew that did that game last year got to ref the superbowl :34853_doh:. If you mess up that big at my job you get fired, not promoted.
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  • SF49r wrote:Who cares we lost get over it about the refs its the same damn thing every week. This is why the NFL is going downhill cant even go a week without talk about the refs. All this talk and its the same thing every week and nothing is done about it. Cant even celebrate a play because you have to wait 10 seconds to see that there is no yellow. Then you have a big play called back because 2 guys in the back that had nothing to do with the play got caught playing with each others vaginas. Cant even celebrate a win anymore because a ref didnt throw a flag at a certain point of the game that means your win is undeserving and doesnt count anymore. Can't imagine being a Rams fan if they won the superbowl, no one would talk about those clutch 2 50+ yard field goals to tie and win the game or Brees getting intercepted in OT. Instead it would be about the no call PI and the Rams would have an asterisk superbowl forever. And the worst part is the same crew that did that game last year got to ref the superbowl :34853_doh:. If you mess up that big at my job you get fired, not promoted.



    I was surprised the same crew did the game.

    Although I personally have never viewed that game with an asterisk and wouldn't view the Super Bowl win that way either - it's hard to beat the Patriots so I would've been happy.

    Ironically, last year's Super Bowl was so much worse - Rams got called for 9 penalties, Patriots go called for 3.

    Eagles/Patriots was 6-1

    Falcons/Patriots was 9-4

    Panthers/Broncos was 12-6

    Seahawks/Patriots was 7-5

    Don't feel like going back any further, but I just don't believe the Patriots are that disciplined. The 9-4, 6-1 and 9-3 are complete bull $h!t. And in both the Rams and Falcons cases, a critical offensive holding call was made in the 4th quarter that altered the game for the Patriots. I don't typically bring this up because most people will throw the no call at me, which is fine - but I really wish the refs would stop helping the Patriots, even if they're doing in subconsciously. They don't need the help.
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  • JPatera76 wrote:If you want an example of steering, look no further than SBXL. So get outta here with that bs.


    I think as Seahawk fans we have a higher bar for refs screwing up a Super Bowl. :D

    So when we see something like this, we're like, 'That's what you're whining about?? That??'

    Hard to be sympathetic to someone when they got scratched by a kitten, and we've been mauled to death by a tiger.
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  • Just a theory cause I know I am guilty of it, when my team has the ball I have a tendency to have my eyes focused on my QB vs when my team is on D I will watch the pass rush more. So I am more likely to pick up on holding when the opposition is committing it. Mind you when I see replays I then I can see "Yeah we got away with one".

    I think certain players may get reputations and get flagged more in iffy calls.

    As far as overall though, I don't believe in the conspiracy as much as plain old fashioned incompetence - Leavy's admittance that he screwed up in the Super Bowl goes along with that.
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  • HawkRiderFan wrote:Just a theory cause I know I am guilty of it, when my team has the ball I have a tendency to have my eyes focused on my QB vs when my team is on D I will watch the pass rush more. So I am more likely to pick up on holding when the opposition is committing it.



    Nice observation.

    Never thought about it before but me too, and I'd guess the vast majority of people also.
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  • No one wants a marginal call to decide a game. Not me. The officiating was the way it should be in a Super Bowl, mostly hands off. Jimmy hits Sanders on that bomb pass and we would not be complaining, but he missed. But that's his MO, he has never been great at the deep pass.
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  • 94Smith wrote:No one wants a marginal call to decide a game. Not me. The officiating was the way it should be in a Super Bowl, mostly hands off. Jimmy hits Sanders on that bomb pass and we would not be complaining, but he missed. But that's his MO, he has never been great at the deep pass.


    I saw a stat leading up to the Super Bowl that had him at the top in deep passes but i wonder how it would look if you broke it down to deep shots off play action on early downs vs more obvious passing situations like that one.
    HawkRiderFan
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  • The whole conspiracy of the NFL steering games while on the surface seems to have plenty of evidence is in my opinion unrealistic. In today’s world if the NFL was trying to manipulate games using the part time refs someone would’ve most definitely snitched and wrote a book about it by now.
    With the rule book, speed of the game and players finding new and clever ways to subvert the rules it’s virtually impossible to get every call correct. The use of instant replay has both helped overturn bad calls and further the conspiracy with getting the call wrong even after review. The problem I see is that a flag could be thrown on almost every single play, and I can’t imagine anyone wants to see every penalty called. So the question the refs and the league face is when do they throw the flag not should they.
    Every Hawks game I watch I scream at the missed holding calls against them and then I ask myself do I want to watch a game with 25 flags for holding.

    As far as this game went I thought it was fairly balanced. The OPI was a penalty, the fact that in other games it wasn’t called makes no difference. The reality of the play to me is with the way the defender was positioned if Kittle doesn’t push off he probably gets an DPI call.

    And at the end of the day like most games teams like the 9er’s had the ball and a chance to overcome the “bad call” at the end and win the game.
    Flyingsquad23
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  • The problem with referees is they have no neutral oversight. They work for the NFL. So the issue with 'steering games' is dependent on how we define 'steering'. For instance, the NFL shows the referees video of what calls they need to emphasize during the week, they track their stats and performance, and they assign which referees call specific games. In such a system, simply assigning a referee who calls a higher amount of holding penalties against power blocking schemes could influence the outcome of a game.

    This system seems incredibly vulnerable to fraud by design, and it's structured in such a way that you can influence outcomes with very few people being implicated or even being aware that it's fraudulent activity. Why? because you can disguise how you evaluate and assign referees in such a way that it protects the integrity and quality of the product on the field.

    The question then becomes: do referees influence the outcome of games? Yes. Does the NFL choose which referees call games? Yes. Does the NFL tell the referees which penalties to watch out for in games? Yes.

    Ok... so steering is a thing whether it's done knowingly or unknowingly with malicious intent or not. The only way to remove this structural bias is to remove the NFL from the equation and give referees 3rd party oversight. The NFL still determines what rules the referees enforce, but they would cease control over emphasizing and assigning referees to games.

    Now, this doesn't actually solve any problems. People will still blame the referees because of their own implicit bias...
    knownone
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  • Cyrus12 wrote:
    johnnyfever wrote:
    Washington49er wrote:My biggest problem with refs this whole season is the lack of consistency.

    You either let them play or you make the same calls on both sides.

    Anyone that thinks the league doesn't steer games is in denial.

    Bottom line, if you don't put the score out of reach of the opposition and the refs you could get screwed.


    They were consistent in this game. They let football decide the winner of the superbowl, not tic tacky flags. The 49ers lost a football game fair and square, and the fact that you are whining about refs and insinuating some nutjob conspiracy theory that refs and announcers are paid off for either team to win is why people can't stand niner fans. Whiney babies, or whiner babies I guess.

    You lost a fair game on a neutral field. Man up.

    Devils advocate...explain xl*.


    The hawks let it be close enough for a bad call decide sixty minutes of football. I'm not in the camp that cries about it. I leave that ref whining stuff to 9er fans.
    johnnyfever
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  • Been saying it for years, streamline the rule book and only call obvious infractions.
    Also, once you do that, publicly hold the officials that screw up accountable. Let the public know how they grade out after every game. If officials consistently can’t do their job correctly, get rid of them, just like any other job.
    Sports Hernia
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  • Sports Hernia wrote:Been saying it for years, streamline the rule book and only call obvious infractions.
    Also, once you do that, publicly hold the officials that screw up accountable. Let the public know how they grade out after every game. If officials consistently can’t do their job correctly, get rid of them, just like any other job.


    Totally agree. Damn it
    Washington49er
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  • Washington49er wrote:
    Sports Hernia wrote:Been saying it for years, streamline the rule book and only call obvious infractions.
    Also, once you do that, publicly hold the officials that screw up accountable. Let the public know how they grade out after every game. If officials consistently can’t do their job correctly, get rid of them, just like any other job.


    Totally agree. Damn it



    I agree with some concepts... but why does the public get to see how their job is being done? It's football.

    Referees should be a vendor of the NFL, however, not actual employees.
    Uncle Si
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  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Washington49er wrote:
    Sports Hernia wrote:Been saying it for years, streamline the rule book and only call obvious infractions.
    Also, once you do that, publicly hold the officials that screw up accountable. Let the public know how they grade out after every game. If officials consistently can’t do their job correctly, get rid of them, just like any other job.


    Totally agree. Damn it



    I agree with some concepts... but why does the public get to see how their job is being done? It's football.

    Referees should be a vendor of the NFL, however, not actual employees.


    I've always thought refs should be fulltime, not Drs and Lawyers doing it part time on Sunday. They should be fined just like the players when they screw up. If its your only source of income you're more likely to take it seriously and do a better job.


    The public knows when players are fined or screw up, refs should be the same.

    I agree refs should be not only a vender but completely independent of the NFL with strict penalties for interference from NFL should they try to sway the refs or influence them in any way.
    Washington49er
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  • Washington49er wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    Washington49er wrote:
    Sports Hernia wrote:Been saying it for years, streamline the rule book and only call obvious infractions.
    Also, once you do that, publicly hold the officials that screw up accountable. Let the public know how they grade out after every game. If officials consistently can’t do their job correctly, get rid of them, just like any other job.


    Totally agree. Damn it



    I agree with some concepts... but why does the public get to see how their job is being done? It's football.

    Referees should be a vendor of the NFL, however, not actual employees.


    I've always thought refs should be fulltime, not Drs and Lawyers doing it part time on Sunday. They should be fined just like the players when they screw up. If its your only source of income you're more likely to take it seriously and do a better job.


    The public knows when players are fined or screw up, refs should be the same.

    I agree refs should be not only a vender but completely independent of the NFL with strict penalties for interference from NFL should they try to sway the refs or influence them in any way.



    Yeah, I think full time would help quite a bit. I dont know of any other professional leagues that treat it like this, but I know it would atleast help the visibility issue the NFL has.

    I know the refs in the English Premier (soccer) league are full time. However, they are employees of the league.
    Uncle Si
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  • Washington49er wrote:
    Sports Hernia wrote:Been saying it for years, streamline the rule book and only call obvious infractions.
    Also, once you do that, publicly hold the officials that screw up accountable. Let the public know how they grade out after every game. If officials consistently can’t do their job correctly, get rid of them, just like any other job.


    Totally agree. Damn it


    YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!
    johnnyfever
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  • What they need is scale back the rules 20 years and only allow the ones for player protection, simplify and obvious, too many subjective rules these days to get wrong or interpret incorrectly.
    chris98251
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  • 1---full time refs that get a reasonable but fairly low salary. Thinking maybe 40000 base. Then have an additional 40000 in bonus if they have a perfect season. Deduct 5000 for calls that are phantom, deduct 2500 for egregious missed calls. They can only lose the 40000 bonus, not their bade pay. This then sideskirts various possible lawsuits as only the 40000 is their pay. This also motivates to not only not make the wrong call, but also not miss blatant ones. Judgement on missed blown calls by an independent panel made up of maybe network employees or elected analysts. The best refs with the highest bonus amounts then are the post season refs, making an addl 1000 per game with 1000 adsl bonus available. 40000 with the option of 80000 for 16 nfl games might be high, may be low looking at the power refs weild and the income of the nfl, so those numbers could be tweaked. Just figured at 80000 that would be a decent wage, and folks would probably work pretty hard for that much seeing as it comes with a lot of downtime.

    2--replay review from New York, the the ref can object to that. This way a review by New York deemed incorrect by the indecent panel but objected to by the ref will still earn the ref his bonus. If he objects, and New York is deemed correct, no bonus for the ref.

    3---focus on only egriguos calls. Also calls that directly effect the gameplay (other than personal).

    I think this would be a decent starting point, then tweak as necessary.
    johnnyfever
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  • chris98251 wrote:What they need is scale back the rules 20 years and only allow the ones for player protection, simplify and obvious, too many subjective rules these days to get wrong or interpret incorrectly.


    This is true too. Football use to be a Gladiator sport, yes you could get seriously hurt, but players know that going in and get paid a $h!t of money to play a game.

    I'm curious to see a Dragon's game to see how the XFL handles officiating, and how their rules make the game flow.
    Washington49er
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  • These things happen. Kind of like the no-call at the end of the Seahawks/Niners game.
    TAB420
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  • And here I was hoping for a breakdown of some of the lesser-noticed calls and non-calls that influenced the game.
    The helmet-to-helmet thing on Garoppolo seemed like a nothingburger to me. The uncalled offsides seem to be a wash, each side getting away with a couple obvious ones. The DOG non-call on SF was within the bounds of typical NFL officiating.

    I was still hoping someone had a clear breakdown on the hold on Bosa on the big pass to Hill for 44 yards. It was a hold, because... the elements of NFL holding were present... which elements? Got that level of analysis for the OPI call on Kittle, in real time during the game.
    olyfan63
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  • olyfan63 wrote:And here I was hoping for a breakdown of some of the lesser-noticed calls and non-calls that influenced the game.
    The helmet-to-helmet thing on Garoppolo seemed like a nothingburger to me. The uncalled offsides seem to be a wash, each side getting away with a couple obvious ones. The DOG non-call on SF was within the bounds of typical NFL officiating.

    I was still hoping someone had a clear breakdown on the hold on Bosa on the big pass to Hill for 44 yards. It was a hold, because... the elements of NFL holding were present... which elements? Got that level of analysis for the OPI call on Kittle, in real time during the game.



    Who really gives 2 $h!t. The game was called. The niners lost. It wasn't the refs fault. It was Kyle, the D and Jimmy that lost the game. I'm so GD sick of hearing about this game.
    rlkats
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  • rlkats wrote:
    olyfan63 wrote:And here I was hoping for a breakdown of some of the lesser-noticed calls and non-calls that influenced the game.
    The helmet-to-helmet thing on Garoppolo seemed like a nothingburger to me. The uncalled offsides seem to be a wash, each side getting away with a couple obvious ones. The DOG non-call on SF was within the bounds of typical NFL officiating.

    I was still hoping someone had a clear breakdown on the hold on Bosa on the big pass to Hill for 44 yards. It was a hold, because... the elements of NFL holding were present... which elements? Got that level of analysis for the OPI call on Kittle, in real time during the game.



    Who really gives 2 $h!t. The game was called. The niners lost. It wasn't the refs fault. It was Kyle, the D and Jimmy that lost the game. I'm so GD sick of hearing about this game.



    You are visiting a football fan website within a week of the biggest game of the year.

    If you don't want to "hear" about the game, maybe avoid football related websites for a bit?

    It's the biggest sport in America and it's fans are hungry for consistency. The refs have been a topic of conversation since TVs invented slow motion
    Uncle Si
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  • If the " fix is in " then why do we watch or follow at all ? I watch on the off chance that half the games might be legit . :D
    xray
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  • xray wrote:If the " fix is in " then why do we watch or follow at all ? I watch on the off chance that half the games might be legit . :D


    Well people watch the WWE and our Presidential Elections also.
    chris98251
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  • As I said... but got nothing (but didn't really like it)
    I was still hoping someone had a clear breakdown on the hold on Bosa on the big pass to Hill for 44 yards. It was a hold, because... the elements of NFL holding were present... which elements?

    Like the fake hold called on Sean Locklear in SBXL on the Hasselbeck completion to TE Jerramy Stevens at llike the 2 yard line, where Shaun Alexander would have run it in for the go-ahead score on the very next play, what were the elements that made that an NFL hold... or not?

    We eventually had great discussion here on Success Mary, establishing that Golden Tate's GW TD catch was a *catch* by the elements that define a catch. (please keep THAT discussion in other threads) The point is, there is a rule, and a set of interpretations of the rule that officials are trained to, that the refs apply (inconsistently) in calling or not calling penalties. Why was or was it not a hold on Bosa? One blog I saw basically said that while it *looked* like a hold, it was not, that in fact the OLineman used Bosa's momentum against him, and the elements of a hold were not present.
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