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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Disp wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
The one I can't figure out is dumb ass bandwagon Niner fans minimizing the loss of Goldson. I like Reid, but *rookie* alert. Dahl? Please. Goldson was a force, and receivers knew he was always lurking. So did running backs. One of my favorite reporters, Jay Glazer, had nothing but praise for Goldon's off season routine, and thinks the guy could kick ass in MMA right NOW. Thinking he can be replaced as a player, and especially as a hard worker and great example off the field, is kind of silly. I think we both know letting Whittner go and keeping Goldson would have been a better move.


The funny thing about so many Hawks fans here is apparently every player who left the Niners in free agency was some dynamic playmaker that can't easily be replaced. Don't get me wrong Scottemojo, like you, I'm on the edge of my seat with anticipation for Goldson's future MMA career and I love watching his offseason workouts with no pads. Unfortunately he is a top 15-ish NFL safety who was over-valued and paid as if he were the best safety in the league because of his highlight reel hits. Of course the Niners would rather have retained Goldson than Whitner, but while neither are particularly good players, Whitner costs half as much per year. Whitner is also unlikely to be resigned after this season. The reality is Goldson was at highest, the 7'th best player on the 49ers defense. Hardly irreplaceable.


LOL. I know, right? Its funny how it never occurs to these peeps that the 49ers could have franchised Goldson or kept the other FA they lost and CHOSE NOT TO. There was a reason for that. If they don't trade for Boldin, they'd almost have the money they needed to keep Goldson....but they chose not to.

Why do you think that is?


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Stupidity? I actually can't figure it out but whatever, He's not on your team so who cares? I know as much about the Ninners as you guys know about the Seahawks. Difference being I don't make myself look the fool on said opposing board.:)

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:18 pm 
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Word!
There is a time and a place to open your mouth, but these clowns missed the memo.

The get-along-girls got all hyped up on San fran coffee and hit the hawks board...bad choice.

Clearly they don't mind looking dumb and playing the creeper troll role here at .Net

The truth is you lost over half the board when you said Dorsey is not a waste! You are homering up a bum.

KC let the stud go for a reason...they knew his upside more then any other team...NONE


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:14 pm 
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Marvin49 wrote:
Disp wrote:
Scottemojo wrote:
The one I can't figure out is dumb ass bandwagon Niner fans minimizing the loss of Goldson. I like Reid, but *rookie* alert. Dahl? Please. Goldson was a force, and receivers knew he was always lurking. So did running backs. One of my favorite reporters, Jay Glazer, had nothing but praise for Goldon's off season routine, and thinks the guy could kick ass in MMA right NOW. Thinking he can be replaced as a player, and especially as a hard worker and great example off the field, is kind of silly. I think we both know letting Whittner go and keeping Goldson would have been a better move.


The funny thing about so many Hawks fans here is apparently every player who left the Niners in free agency was some dynamic playmaker that can't easily be replaced. Don't get me wrong Scottemojo, like you, I'm on the edge of my seat with anticipation for Goldson's future MMA career and I love watching his offseason workouts with no pads. Unfortunately he is a top 15-ish NFL safety who was over-valued and paid as if he were the best safety in the league because of his highlight reel hits. Of course the Niners would rather have retained Goldson than Whitner, but while neither are particularly good players, Whitner costs half as much per year. Whitner is also unlikely to be resigned after this season. The reality is Goldson was at highest, the 7'th best player on the 49ers defense. Hardly irreplaceable.


LOL. I know, right? Its funny how it never occurs to these peeps that the 49ers could have franchised Goldson or kept the other FA they lost and CHOSE NOT TO. There was a reason for that. If they don't trade for Boldin, they'd almost have the money they needed to keep Goldson....but they chose not to.

Why do you think that is?

Mother Effin Dollas? Don't pretend it's something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:25 pm 
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What? You mean they didn't want to pay the man? Or more to the point couldn't even try. I get the gist correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:24 am 
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Scottemojo wrote:
Marvin49 wrote:
Disp wrote:
The funny thing about so many Hawks fans here is apparently every player who left the Niners in free agency was some dynamic playmaker that can't easily be replaced. Don't get me wrong Scottemojo, like you, I'm on the edge of my seat with anticipation for Goldson's future MMA career and I love watching his offseason workouts with no pads. Unfortunately he is a top 15-ish NFL safety who was over-valued and paid as if he were the best safety in the league because of his highlight reel hits. Of course the Niners would rather have retained Goldson than Whitner, but while neither are particularly good players, Whitner costs half as much per year. Whitner is also unlikely to be resigned after this season. The reality is Goldson was at highest, the 7'th best player on the 49ers defense. Hardly irreplaceable.


LOL. I know, right? Its funny how it never occurs to these peeps that the 49ers could have franchised Goldson or kept the other FA they lost and CHOSE NOT TO. There was a reason for that. If they don't trade for Boldin, they'd almost have the money they needed to keep Goldson....but they chose not to.

Why do you think that is?

Mother Effin Dollas? Don't pretend it's something else.


Well of course it was about $$$$, but it's not that the 49ers couldn't afford to pay him. Franchiseing him would have cost them 7.2 mil. Boldins contract is 6. Not making that trade alone almost gets it done without reworking any other contracts.

Nobody is contending that Goldson totally sucks. He doesn't...he's a good player, but he isn't worth anything close to what he's making in Tampa.

The bottom line here is that you can't keep everyone. You REALLY can't keep everyone if you grossly overpay them. That was the deal on Goldson.

He'll be missed...just not as much as peeps would like to think. Just a couple of years ago he was a free agent and the Niners almost let him walk. Then their starting FS got hurt in camp so they went out and resigned Dashon to a 1 year contract. Nobody saw the Pro Bowl in his furure. They also drafted Aldon Smith that year.

All of the sudden, Dashon Goldson becomes a great player. Then, Justin Smith and Aldon Smith get hurt and Dashon is completely exposed (as is Whitner) in the secondary. There is a reason the 49ers didn't use the tag on him and didn't sign him long term in any of the past three offseasons. The 49ers have known all along he wasn't a part of their long-term future.

Look, Dashon is a big hitter. Hes fantastic in run support and he'll tackle like a linebacker in the hole. In coverage tho, he's average at best. The entire secondary was protected by a great pass rush. Once that rush disappeared, they began to give up over 300 yards a game and a rating over 100. Prior to that they gave up about 170 yards a game and a 70 rating.

BTW...about one of your previous posts...I could give exactly 2 sh*ts about Goldson and MMA. Really. Who cares?. Dahl? Dahl was never going to start. he was depth and Special Teams. The 49ers had the best Special Teams unit in the NFL 2 years ago. Last year they let a few of those key contributors walk away (Costanzo, Jones). This year they have already lost contributors Tvares Gooden and Delanie Walker (and of course Davis Akers). Signing Skuta fron Cincy, Dahl from St. Louis, and drafting Nick Moody was all about getting those Special teams back to what they were 2 years ago. We'll see if it works.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:26 am 
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KCHawkGirl wrote:
What? You mean they didn't want to pay the man? Or more to the point couldn't even try. I get the gist correct?


They could have afforded him. They chose not to. They could have franchised him and paid less than Tampa paid to keep him. They chose not to.

Good but not great player wanted enormous contract. Pass.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:13 am 
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They couldn't have kept him without ignoring other needs. Bold in was a need not a luxury and for equal money more important than Goldson.

It's easier and safer to draft defense than offenses as you can see with Jenkins. Safety is an easier position to evaluate and learn but no matter, you needed a #2 receiver ready to step on the field. Drafting a receiver for that spot was not an option.

So no they didn't simply pass on Goldson. Even an affordable contract would have been a bad move. I don't buy that your FO views him like you seem to but because of needs elsewhere and lack of cap room to secure both, he was allowed to walk. The franchise tag was never an option.

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:37 am 
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RichNhansom wrote:
They couldn't have kept him without ignoring other needs. Bold in was a need not a luxury and for equal money more important than Goldson.

It's easier and safer to draft defense than offenses as you can see with Jenkins. Safety is an easier position to evaluate and learn but no matter, you needed a #2 receiver ready to step on the field. Drafting a receiver for that spot was not an option.

So no they didn't simply pass on Goldson. Even an affordable contract would have been a bad move. I don't buy that your FO views him like you seem to but because of needs elsewhere and lack of cap room to secure both, he was allowed to walk. The franchise tag was never an option.


We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Was the cap an issue in them not resigning him? Sure it was. They had to make a decision on who was expendable. They have known Goldson wasn't a part of long term plans for several years. Thats why he initially signed a 1 year contract and why he was franchised last year. Why was he expendable? He was expendable because his price far exceeded his value.

Put this another way....what if Browner wants 8-9 mil per season when his contract is up. Browner is a Pro Bowl player, but I think we can agree he's probably the 4th best member of that secondary (correct me if I'm wrong). Do the 'Hawks resign him at that number or do they let him walk because while being a good player he's not worth that much money and they have far better players they are going to need to pay. Additionally, they just might spend a 1st round pick to replace him.

How much of Browners performance tho is wrapped up in the players around him.....2 of the best safeties in the NFC and arguably the best CB in the NFL on the other side. Does Browner play just as well on another team if he's the featured guy? My guess is if Seattle lets Browner walk and they select another corner high you guys will be saying stuff very similar to what I'm saying right now.

Thats kinda my whole point. Goldson looked better than he was because of the players around him and the scheme. Reid has a really good opportunity to come in and get that same benefit. He's actually better than Goldson from a physical perspective (beat ALL of Goldson combine numbers) and he's a smart kid who had offers from Stanford coming out of high school. None of that guarantees he'll be a good player....but its a good bet. There will of course be a learning curve and I'm sure he'll make rookie mistakes, but I really don't think the falloff will be as great as people think.

As for your opinion of the Boldin move...they didn't know Boldin was even going to be available until after they had already made their decision on Goldson.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:24 am 
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If it wasn't Boldin it would have been another vet WR. No coincidence he was signed right after Harvin. They weren't going into the season with Crabtree and a rookie or Jenkins. As much as I'd like to think they are just that dumb.

As for Browner I think you are wrong about how we would react. Browner has earned a ton of respect around here and if he were to move on I really doubt you would see any Seahawks fans trying to convince Niner fans that he wasn't as good as you think or was way over rated. Especially if he walked with no suitable replacement like Goldson did. I think you would see people thinking it sucks that he moved on and hopefully one of the other guys can step up.

I also doubt you would see folks in here trying to convince anyone that a rookie is the better option. I think you would see people excited about the rookie and hoping he will be as good as Browner but understanding we have a cap and cannot keep every player at any cost like the Niners prior to FA.

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:51 pm 
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RichNhansom wrote:
If it wasn't Boldin it would have been another vet WR. No coincidence he was signed right after Harvin. They weren't going into the season with Crabtree and a rookie or Jenkins. As much as I'd like to think they are just that dumb.

As for Browner I think you are wrong about how we would react. Browner has earned a ton of respect around here and if he were to move on I really doubt you would see any Seahawks fans trying to convince Niner fans that he wasn't as good as you think or was way over rated. Especially if he walked with no suitable replacement like Goldson did. I think you would see people thinking it sucks that he moved on and hopefully one of the other guys can step up.

I also doubt you would see folks in here trying to convince anyone that a rookie is the better option. I think you would see people excited about the rookie and hoping he will be as good as Browner but understanding we have a cap and cannot keep every player at any cost like the Niners prior to FA.


It may have been another reciever, but probably not a 6 mil per year receiver. More like an aging vet like they've done the last couple years (Moss, Edwards). As for the timing....it is a coincidense. The call was initiated by JOHN Harbaugh, not the other way around.

I guess again we could agree to disagree. I think if the 'hawks let Browner walk when he is asking to be among the highest paid players at the position, you'd approve of the move to let him walk. If I said that losing Browner is going to be a HUGE loss to the 'Hawks secondary and I can't possibly see how they could overcome it, you'd probably counter by saying he was the 4th best player in that unit and he was expendable. That isn't a slam on him as a player....its a commentary on the gap between what he'd demand and what he's worth.

I'm not saying Reid is going to be better THIS year. He's a rookie...but he IS a better prospect than Goldson was coming out of the draft. Goldson was a 4th round pick. I'm not saying that the round he's taken in will always predict future success, but its not completely unreasonable to think that Reid might end up being a better player. Do I assume that? No. Is it POSSIBLE? Yes.

For the record...I have ALWAYS thought Goldson was overrated. He took poor angles and too often went for the hit instead of the ball. I'll also go on the record for NEXT year and say that I think Whitner is even worse.

Finally, I don't think Reid is a better option THIS year. He's a rookie and there will be growing pains. While I think Goldson is overrated, I don't think he is a horrible player. In fact, I think he's probably a top 10 FS in the NFL. I just think there is a HUGE gap between the way he wants to be paid and his true value.

As for that last parting shot...lol....the Niners being able to keep every one in the days before FA...so what? There was no free agency. There was very, very little player movement. All the players they had were a result of superior talent evaluation and shrewd trades. Why hold that against them?


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:32 pm 
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you realize we won four games without Browner last season? he's a good player no doubt but of the 5 db's on the starting roster and i'm including Winfield, Browner is the easiest to replace right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:48 pm 
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hawker84 wrote:
you realize we won four games without Browner last season? he's a good player no doubt but of the 5 db's on the starting roster and i'm including Winfield, Browner is the easiest to replace right now.


....and thats kinda my entire point.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 3:06 pm 
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RichNhansom wrote:
They couldn't have kept him without ignoring other needs.


If the front office wanted to re-sign him they would have; it's really as simple as that. They set his value to the franchise in the offseason 2 years ago, made him a 5 year/$25mil offer, he rejected it, so they signed him to a 1 year deal and then franchised him for the 2012 season instead. They knew what he wanted, and he wasn't worth that to the team so they let him walk. It's a real simple concept, and it's what good front offices do.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Disp wrote:
RichNhansom wrote:
They couldn't have kept him without ignoring other needs.


If the front office wanted to re-sign him they would have; it's really as simple as that. They set his value to the franchise in the offseason 2 years ago, made him a 5 year/$25mil offer, he rejected it, so they signed him to a 1 year deal and then franchised him for the 2012 season instead. They knew what he wanted, and he wasn't worth that to the team so they let him walk. It's a real simple concept, and it's what good front offices do.


This


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:45 pm 
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Marvin49 wrote:
RichNhansom wrote:
If it wasn't Boldin it would have been another vet WR. No coincidence he was signed right after Harvin. They weren't going into the season with Crabtree and a rookie or Jenkins. As much as I'd like to think they are just that dumb.

As for Browner I think you are wrong about how we would react. Browner has earned a ton of respect around here and if he were to move on I really doubt you would see any Seahawks fans trying to convince Niner fans that he wasn't as good as you think or was way over rated. Especially if he walked with no suitable replacement like Goldson did. I think you would see people thinking it sucks that he moved on and hopefully one of the other guys can step up.

I also doubt you would see folks in here trying to convince anyone that a rookie is the better option. I think you would see people excited about the rookie and hoping he will be as good as Browner but understanding we have a cap and cannot keep every player at any cost like the Niners prior to FA.


It may have been another reciever, but probably not a 6 mil per year receiver. More like an aging vet like they've done the last couple years (Moss, Edwards). As for the timing....it is a coincidense. The call was initiated by JOHN Harbaugh, not the other way around.

I guess again we could agree to disagree. I think if the 'hawks let Browner walk when he is asking to be among the highest paid players at the position, you'd approve of the move to let him walk. If I said that losing Browner is going to be a HUGE loss to the 'Hawks secondary and I can't possibly see how they could overcome it, you'd probably counter by saying he was the 4th best player in that unit and he was expendable. That isn't a slam on him as a player....its a commentary on the gap between what he'd demand and what he's worth.

I'm not saying Reid is going to be better THIS year. He's a rookie...but he IS a better prospect than Goldson was coming out of the draft. Goldson was a 4th round pick. I'm not saying that the round he's taken in will always predict future success, but its not completely unreasonable to think that Reid might end up being a better player. Do I assume that? No. Is it POSSIBLE? Yes.

For the record...I have ALWAYS thought Goldson was overrated. He took poor angles and too often went for the hit instead of the ball. I'll also go on the record for NEXT year and say that I think Whitner is even worse.

Finally, I don't think Reid is a better option THIS year. He's a rookie and there will be growing pains. While I think Goldson is overrated, I don't think he is a horrible player. In fact, I think he's probably a top 10 FS in the NFL. I just think there is a HUGE gap between the way he wants to be paid and his true value.

As for that last parting shot...lol....the Niners being able to keep every one in the days before FA...so what? There was no free agency. There was very, very little player movement. All the players they had were a result of superior talent evaluation and shrewd trades. Why hold that against them?


Maybe you view Goldston like I view Trufant but Trufant was actually released last year and then resigned on a near league minimum deal. Goldston was recently franchised (so paid and average of the top 5 safeties in the league IIRC) and signed a large contract with Tampa and is a current all pro. Maybe he is over rated but then how did he make the all pro list? Is it because he is a Niner? Who else on your defense is over rated then? Or was it just him?

You are also missing the point on your Browner scenario. No one here (that I know of) would be dogging Browner like the Niner fans are dogging Golston. Like I said the man is respected and degrading his play only comes across as justifying the move. A simple, yeah it sucks to lose good players but I think we will be OK, would be the appropriate response. You don't need to try and convince us that it's no big loss. If your team and coach's are as good as you guys believe then they will find a way even if that means a dip in secondary performance. Kind of like how we found a way when Browner missed 4 games.

As for the Golston was surrounded by talent that made him look better than he was. I hope you are referring to your front seven and not your secondary because he was the best player in your secondary whether you like him or not.

By the way, what other older receiver do you think they would have brought in if not Boldin? Personally I think they were going to make a splash in FA and that it is rumored they were in on the Harvin bidding as well as I believe Mike Wallace rumor wagon kind of confirms it. The reason Moss made sense last year is because you already had Manningham. This year a player like Moss would not be enough to keep you afloat. Going into next season with just some old vet and Crabtree would have been a sure fire way to set up Papaki for a sophomore slump. I'm not buying that your coaches are that dumb even if you want to try and convince me they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:49 pm 
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Marvin49 wrote:
Disp wrote:
RichNhansom wrote:
They couldn't have kept him without ignoring other needs.


If the front office wanted to re-sign him they would have; it's really as simple as that. They set his value to the franchise in the offseason 2 years ago, made him a 5 year/$25mil offer, he rejected it, so they signed him to a 1 year deal and then franchised him for the 2012 season instead. They knew what he wanted, and he wasn't worth that to the team so they let him walk. It's a real simple concept, and it's what good front offices do.


This


When you say this I assume you mean what I said about ignoring other needs? Because there is no way you guys sign a good WR and Goldston. You didn't have the cap room to do so PERIOD. There is no debate about that. It's not as simple as they didn't want to. That's just dumb.

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:48 am 
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RichNhansom wrote:
Marvin49 wrote:
RichNhansom wrote:
If it wasn't Boldin it would have been another vet WR. No coincidence he was signed right after Harvin. They weren't going into the season with Crabtree and a rookie or Jenkins. As much as I'd like to think they are just that dumb.

As for Browner I think you are wrong about how we would react. Browner has earned a ton of respect around here and if he were to move on I really doubt you would see any Seahawks fans trying to convince Niner fans that he wasn't as good as you think or was way over rated. Especially if he walked with no suitable replacement like Goldson did. I think you would see people thinking it sucks that he moved on and hopefully one of the other guys can step up.

I also doubt you would see folks in here trying to convince anyone that a rookie is the better option. I think you would see people excited about the rookie and hoping he will be as good as Browner but understanding we have a cap and cannot keep every player at any cost like the Niners prior to FA.


It may have been another reciever, but probably not a 6 mil per year receiver. More like an aging vet like they've done the last couple years (Moss, Edwards). As for the timing....it is a coincidense. The call was initiated by JOHN Harbaugh, not the other way around.

I guess again we could agree to disagree. I think if the 'hawks let Browner walk when he is asking to be among the highest paid players at the position, you'd approve of the move to let him walk. If I said that losing Browner is going to be a HUGE loss to the 'Hawks secondary and I can't possibly see how they could overcome it, you'd probably counter by saying he was the 4th best player in that unit and he was expendable. That isn't a slam on him as a player....its a commentary on the gap between what he'd demand and what he's worth.

I'm not saying Reid is going to be better THIS year. He's a rookie...but he IS a better prospect than Goldson was coming out of the draft. Goldson was a 4th round pick. I'm not saying that the round he's taken in will always predict future success, but its not completely unreasonable to think that Reid might end up being a better player. Do I assume that? No. Is it POSSIBLE? Yes.

For the record...I have ALWAYS thought Goldson was overrated. He took poor angles and too often went for the hit instead of the ball. I'll also go on the record for NEXT year and say that I think Whitner is even worse.

Finally, I don't think Reid is a better option THIS year. He's a rookie and there will be growing pains. While I think Goldson is overrated, I don't think he is a horrible player. In fact, I think he's probably a top 10 FS in the NFL. I just think there is a HUGE gap between the way he wants to be paid and his true value.

As for that last parting shot...lol....the Niners being able to keep every one in the days before FA...so what? There was no free agency. There was very, very little player movement. All the players they had were a result of superior talent evaluation and shrewd trades. Why hold that against them?


Maybe you view Goldston like I view Trufant but Trufant was actually released last year and then resigned on a near league minimum deal. Goldston was recently franchised (so paid and average of the top 5 safeties in the league IIRC) and signed a large contract with Tampa and is a current all pro. Maybe he is over rated but then how did he make the all pro list? Is it because he is a Niner? Who else on your defense is over rated then? Or was it just him?

You are also missing the point on your Browner scenario. No one here (that I know of) would be dogging Browner like the Niner fans are dogging Golston. Like I said the man is respected and degrading his play only comes across as justifying the move. A simple, yeah it sucks to lose good players but I think we will be OK, would be the appropriate response. You don't need to try and convince us that it's no big loss. If your team and coach's are as good as you guys believe then they will find a way even if that means a dip in secondary performance. Kind of like how we found a way when Browner missed 4 games.

As for the Golston was surrounded by talent that made him look better than he was. I hope you are referring to your front seven and not your secondary because he was the best player in your secondary whether you like him or not.

By the way, what other older receiver do you think they would have brought in if not Boldin? Personally I think they were going to make a splash in FA and that it is rumored they were in on the Harvin bidding as well as I believe Mike Wallace rumor wagon kind of confirms it. The reason Moss made sense last year is because you already had Manningham. This year a player like Moss would not be enough to keep you afloat. Going into next season with just some old vet and Crabtree would have been a sure fire way to set up Papaki for a sophomore slump. I'm not buying that your coaches are that dumb even if you want to try and convince me they are.


Alot there to respond to...

1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but Trufant is an older player. Goldson is not. As for who on the Niner D is overrated.....WHITNER. In a really big way. Goldson is better than Whitner and I'd have much rather let Whitner walk and Goldson stay...just not at that price.

2) My intent here is not to "dog" Goldson. I wish they could have kept him. I think tho that he is WAY overrated tho and those contract demands were nuts. I've felt this way for 2 years BTW...this isn't a new thing. I've written quite a bit about it on Niner forums. I'd put him in the top 10 of FS in the NFL, but I wouldn't make him the highest paid safety in the NFL. Earl Thomas for example is to me a FAR superior player. Goldson is OUTSTANDING in the box. He supports the run like nobody else. He can close from deep in the secondary in a blink....but he has issues in coverage. He always has. Thats not me trying to "dog" him. Thats simply true. I saw the guy get drafted. I saw him move from a backup to a starter. I saw the Niners almost let him walk because they wanted someone better and then only resign him because the guy they were replaceing him with got hurt. I saw him suddenly become a really good player when Fangio came in and Aldon Smith started playing. I then saw the pass D fall apart when Aldon and Justin got hurt.

3) Make no mistake. There is a 95% chance that Reid will not be better than Goldson this year. He is tho FAR cheaper and is a better PROSPECT than Goldson was coming out of Washington. Time will tell how good Reid will be. I personally like the kid and think he'll be a player. Just my opinion tho. The HOPE is that he's a better coverage player than Goldson was....but again, thats long-term.

4) When I was talking about the talent around him, I was talking about the entire defense. You say that Goldson was the best member of that secondary, but I'd counter that IMO the best member of that secondary is the vastly UNDERrated Terrell Brown. He isn't flashy. He's not Sherman or Browner...or Winfield for that matter. He just quietly game in and game out goes and does his job...and nobody notices. Looking at that entire defense I'd have put Goldson at the 6th or 7th best member of that defense.....(I'd place Willis, Bowman, Aldon, Justin, and Brooks ahead of him and Brown would be a question).

5) Finally the WR question...remember...the 49ers still have WRs on the roster. Crab of course, but they also have Kyle WIlliams and Mario Manningham coming back from injury. They still have AJ Jenkins who thus far has looked much better (and bigger). I'm not saying they weren't going to look at a WR, but they were never going to pay the $$$ that Harvin got or Wallace got. Remember, they weren't looking for a #1 WR...they were looking for a compliment to Crabtree. The guy that they signed would be no better than the THIRD receiving option behind Crab and Vernon in a run heavy offense. The identity of that #2 WR was an issue, but it wasn't even close to priority #1. What they needed far more was a #2 TE. Losing Walker hurt them. They played 2 TE sets as much as any team in the NFL. Thats why they drafted Vance McDonald. I a;so think that since they actually did get Boldin that he'll take over some of those "joker" duties that Walker did last year...but the point is that I really don't think the 49ers had planned on investing a great deal in that #2 WR. Thats why they had tried to go cheap on it with Moss and Edwards. I dunno what vet is out there that might come cheap...but even the 6 mil they are paying Boldin is high for that position.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:01 am 
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You guys know that there's no chance in hell of either of you convincing the other to agree with you in any way, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:03 am 
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RichNhansom wrote:
Marvin49 wrote:
Disp wrote:
If the front office wanted to re-sign him they would have; it's really as simple as that. They set his value to the franchise in the offseason 2 years ago, made him a 5 year/$25mil offer, he rejected it, so they signed him to a 1 year deal and then franchised him for the 2012 season instead. They knew what he wanted, and he wasn't worth that to the team so they let him walk. It's a real simple concept, and it's what good front offices do.


This


When you say this I assume you mean what I said about ignoring other needs? Because there is no way you guys sign a good WR and Goldston. You didn't have the cap room to do so PERIOD. There is no debate about that. It's not as simple as they didn't want to. That's just dumb.


You missed the point of his post.

The 49ers under Baalke and Harbaugh have a particular way of doing business. They assign their value to a player. They then won't budge from it. Dorsey signed a SMALL contract. Woodson came in and left. Nnamdi came in, got the offer...waited to see if he could get something better and finally ended up signing in SF. Moss signed a small deal last year.

The point I'm making is that there is very little negotiation. the 49ers will make an offer and move on if the player doesn't like it. This isn't something we are assuming her either. It has been well covered by the beat writers who observe the team. Baalke is on record defending the way they ofer contracts by saying "you can't pay every one...particularly when you overpay some of them". That's his mantra.

This is why Goldson was franchised last year. The tag was only 6 mil which isn't that far above their perceived value for him. Franchising him AGAIN this year would have cost 7.2 mil. Too much. They were NEVER going to offer any contract that was anywhere near the ballpark of the Bucs.

The Niners don't make big splasheds in Free Agnecy. Its just not what they do. They build in the draft and they look for value in FA. Look at the players they have signed. Whitner. Rogers. Edwards. Moss. Dorsey. Goodwin. Jacobs. Asomugha. I mean seriously...they shop in the bargain isle. They don't go after the big shiny object.

Finally...you need to get past the WR for Safety thing. LOL. I know you brought it up because I mentioned the money aspect, but you are taking it too far. LOL. #2 WR was a need but not more than a starting FS. The 49ers could very easily rework a few contracts and be able to get Goldson under contract if they wanted to do that long-term deal. They are just choosing not to because they don't want to jack up the cap in future years.

Could the 49ers have paid him what he wanted. Yes. Would it have been prudent? No. Drafting a promising young player to replace him is their strategy. The player can be coached up by a good coaching staff and he'll be playing for about a quarter of what Goldon got....for a full 5 years thanks to the new CBA.

You guys had better start getting used to this concpt BTW because its gonn ahppen in Seattle very soon. The downside of drafting so well is that you can't keep them all. The 49ers are just a year or so further down that line. In the next few years you guys are going to have to get players like Wilson, Sherman and Wagner under much larger contracts. That will force you to replace some players you don't want to lose with rookies under cheaper contracts.

That was kinda my point in bringing up Browner. He is an example of a player you will likely lose in order to keep Sherman and Thomas.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:05 am 
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AbsolutNET wrote:
You guys know that there's no chance in hell of either of you convincing the other to agree with you in any way, right?


Of course! I never thought I'd be able to convince anyone of anything in enemy territory.

It doesn't make the debate any less fun tho.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:09 am 
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You'll never convince me of that absolute.

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:15 am 
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RichNhansom wrote:
You'll never convince me of that absolute.


Sorry. Doesn't make it less true.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:00 am 
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RichNhansom wrote:
When you say this I assume you mean what I said about ignoring other needs? Because there is no way you guys sign a good WR and Goldston. You didn't have the cap room to do so PERIOD. There is no debate about that. It's not as simple as they didn't want to. That's just dumb.


You should do more research to understand the way current contracts are structured. Front offices can do just about anything they want to manipulate the cap. Look at Percy Harvin; he counts for less than $5mil. against the Seahawks cap this year, despite getting paid nearly $15mil this season. If Goldson was a core player and worth the money he was asking, they would have signed him. And they still would've signed Boldin. The FO could get $10mil. in cap space tomorrow if they needed to by just extending Justin Smith and Boldin.

Goldson is a pretty good player, but Tarell Brown and Carlos Rogers were both better than him the past 2 seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:36 am 
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If I agree does that make Absolute wrong? Oh and Marvin too?

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 Post subject: Re: Drafts of Other NFC West Teams--What's your grade?
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:33 pm 
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aawolf wrote:
As scary as it is, IMO, the teams that did the best in this draft all came from the NFC West.

Arizona Cardinals

7. Jonathan Cooper, guard, North Carolina.
45. Kevin Minter, inside linebacker, LSU.
69. Tyrann Mathieu, free safety, LSU.
103. Alex Okafor, outside linebacker, Texas.
116. Earl Watford, guard/center, James Madison.
140. Stepfan Taylor, running back, Stanford.
174. Ryan Swope, receiver, Texas A&M.
187. Andre Ellington, running back, Clemson.
219. D.C. Jefferson, tight end, Rutgers.

My Draft Grade: B+--The Cards made several picks that may add instant help and were some favorites of .net including Cooper (who may help accross the O-line), Ryan Swope (probably a second rounder if concussions don't end his carreer early), Alex Okafor (can be added to the mix of an already impressive pass rush), and, of course, Honey Badger (possibly the steal of the draft, as long as he returns to form and is not arrested and expelled before the season). They upgraded the QB position, IMO, with the addition of Carson Palmer. They would have gotten an "A" from me if they drafted more o-line help and a higher-quality RB, both of which they sorely need to help their anemic offense.

San Francisco 49ers

18. Eric Reid, free safety, LSU.
40. Tank Carradine, outside linebacker, Florida State.
55. Vance McDonald, tight end, Rice.
88. Corey Lemonier, outside linebacker, Auburn.
128. Quinton Patton, receiver, Louisiana Tech.
131. Marcus Lattimore, running back, South Carolina.
157. Quinton Dial, defensive end, Alabama.
180. Nick Moody, linebacker, Florida State.
237. B.J. Daniels, quarterback, South Florida.
246. Carter Bykowski, tackle, Iowa State.
252. Marcus Cooper, cornerback, Rutgers.

My Draft Grade: A---Sorry, but the 9'ers are stacked already and all of these picks were quality for when they were taken. I took exception to the trade-up in the first round to get Reid in the first, but looking at how many picks they had and who they were able to take later on, it didn't strike me as that bad of a move when the draft was over. I suspect that all first 5 picks will see the field this year and play good minutes, and the pick of Lattimore is another candidate for steal of the draft once he comes back from injury. The rest are all talented enough to earn a roster spot.

St. Louis Rams

8. Tavon Austin, receiver, West Virginia.
30. Alec Ogletree, linebacker, Georgia.
71. T.J. McDonald, safety, USC.
92. Stedman Bailey, receiver, West Virginia.
113. Barrett Jones, center/guard, Alabama.
149. Brandon McGee, cornerback, Miami.
160. Zac Stacy, running back, Vanderbilt.

Draft Grade: A- - Geeze...how the heck did they get Austin, Ogletree, and Baily where they did in this draft? STEALS, IMO. All of these three are impact players and have pro-bowl potential and immediately upgrade the offense. They did the best they could with where they picked in this draft, but they desprately need a sure-fire running back with the departure of Stephen Jackson.. I don't think Daryl Richardson and Isaiah Pead are up to the task of filling those shoes.

Again--NFC West= scary good after this draft. I still think the Seahawks should win it this year, but a few years down the road it will be a lo harder if those teams keep drafting like this.


Regarding the Rams running back situation; what do you think of Ganaway?


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