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Mariners OFF-season thread

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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:19 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:No one thinks 10 year contracts are a good idea, but when you're the Seattle Mariners and you've stunk the past 10-12 years, it's the only way a player of Cano's skill is going to sign with you.

    So I get it, and I was OK with the signing, still am. Cano just needs a manager that knows how to motivate him.......cause Lloyd obviously wasn't doing it.


    I agree that a team like the Mariners has to overpay for talent, but a past your prime 2B that feasted in a hitter friendly park? To lock him up until age 42?

    Honestly trading him back to NY wouldn't be a bad thing.. they're the one team that could eat that contract. Only problem is they would want you to take back an equally s**t contract in Ellsbury.

    Look at the contenders right now though in MLB.. KC was largely built from within with a few key players acquired via FA and trade. Houston is entirely from prospects and a dusting of FA/trade acquired talent. The Mets are primarily prospects. The Cubs. And on and on. Then the flip side you have the Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees, Angels .. all the teams that have depleted farms and high payrolls. None of them have really won anything lately, save for a fluky title run by the Red Sox.. ironically fueled in large part due to a massive salary dump.

    The M's continue to be in baseball no mans land with some really horrendous contracts to aging vets and a very very iffy farm. They are almost better off bottoming out for a few years just to rack up high draft picks and sell off whatever decent veteran talent they have for prospects. It's kind of a terrible way to present it to your fans though.. the notion that "hey we're probably going to lose 100 games for the next couple of years, but keep on coming out!" .. but over the long haul I think it's the only way the M's ever become relevant.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:58 pm
  • Not that anyone really cares about the Mariners but they traded Trumbo to the Orioles for a catcher today.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:02 pm
  • Hasselbeck wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:No one thinks 10 year contracts are a good idea, but when you're the Seattle Mariners and you've stunk the past 10-12 years, it's the only way a player of Cano's skill is going to sign with you.

    So I get it, and I was OK with the signing, still am. Cano just needs a manager that knows how to motivate him.......cause Lloyd obviously wasn't doing it.


    I agree that a team like the Mariners has to overpay for talent, but a past your prime 2B that feasted in a hitter friendly park? To lock him up until age 42?

    Honestly trading him back to NY wouldn't be a bad thing.. they're the one team that could eat that contract. Only problem is they would want you to take back an equally s**t contract in Ellsbury.

    Look at the contenders right now though in MLB.. KC was largely built from within with a few key players acquired via FA and trade. Houston is entirely from prospects and a dusting of FA/trade acquired talent. The Mets are primarily prospects. The Cubs. And on and on. Then the flip side you have the Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees, Angels .. all the teams that have depleted farms and high payrolls. None of them have really won anything lately, save for a fluky title run by the Red Sox.. ironically fueled in large part due to a massive salary dump.

    The M's continue to be in baseball no mans land with some really horrendous contracts to aging vets and a very very iffy farm. They are almost better off bottoming out for a few years just to rack up high draft picks and sell off whatever decent veteran talent they have for prospects. It's kind of a terrible way to present it to your fans though.. the notion that "hey we're probably going to lose 100 games for the next couple of years, but keep on coming out!" .. but over the long haul I think it's the only way the M's ever become relevant.


    You can't look at the recent contenders and their model and ignore that decades of baseball were virtually dominated by big spending franchises who created all star line ups.

    It's cyclical and the measure with which a team is put together only matters in terms of its players and their abilities. Teams like the Royals, Astros and Pirates waited decades to compete. Other teams bought their successes. Both ended up with results.

    The truth is that their is a whole lot of money in the sport. And because their is no hard cap many teams can spend their way to success. Others have to be far more frugal...and lucky. The landscape is ever evolving but their is no "right way" to do it.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:11 pm
  • I dunno Si. When the Yanks were winning really big, it wasn't primarily because of their payroll. When they were dominating, it was when they had Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Mariano, El Duque and middling vets. All guys that came up with them. It wasn't until after that success that they decided to throw money at their problems to try to keep winning, and they couldn't do it. When the Red Sox were contending every year, it was guys that had come up with them. They added Papi and Manny, but the rest of their core and pitchers were homegrown. Papi basically came up in their system too. Cardinals and Giants were the same way. Braves. You name it.

    It helps to have the money, of course, if you use it right. Once you have that good core, then having money gets you the luxury of going out to get that stud Ace or stud Closer that would put you over the top, or that big power bat in the middle of the lineup. Name a team that has had a good run that was built primarily by bringing in free-agents. I don't think you can find one. If you spend that money and burn your prospects too soon, haven't developed that young core, and you don't end up getting good enough, you're done. You are dead in the water, and your only choices are to throw more money at the futile situation or sell off whatever isn't nailed down to gather as many prospects as you can. Failing to sell off your vets when their window was closed was one of the biggest reasons the past 15 years in M's baseball happened. When you're bad, you've got to have the patience to build that young core. We completely whiffed when we tried doing this recently, and now have no choice but to try again. It is a really hard thing to do because there is pressure on managers and GM's and they need to win to keep their jobs. Fans are sick of losing. However, if we spend more money now, flip prospects for vets now, we're only getting deeper in the quicksand. In baseball, there isn't any other way to do it.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:16 am
  • Like others are saying, the window with Felix, Cano, Cruz ect is closing so a couple bold moves are hopefully made.

    Trade a young SP like Paxton+ for Puig or Elias+ for Ozuna. Since there are rumors of the Red Sox wanting to get rid of Hanley, trade a couple mid level prospects for him if Boston pays around 1/3 of the money left on his contract. Mike Napoli or Justin Morneau are probably the top two 1B free agent options if they don't trade for Hanley. Sign Nori Aoki for some added OF depth too.


    CF-Martin
    RF-Puig
    2B-Cano
    DH-Cruz
    3B-Seager
    1B-Ramirez
    C-Ianetta+Zunino
    LF-Aoki+Guti+Smith
    SS-Marte

    Felix
    Kuma
    Walker
    Karns
    Elias
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:14 am
  • Tical21 wrote:I dunno Si. When the Yanks were winning really big, it wasn't primarily because of their payroll. When they were dominating, it was when they had Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Mariano, El Duque and middling vets. All guys that came up with them. It wasn't until after that success that they decided to throw money at their problems to try to keep winning, and they couldn't do it. When the Red Sox were contending every year, it was guys that had come up with them. They added Papi and Manny, but the rest of their core and pitchers were homegrown. Papi basically came up in their system too. Cardinals and Giants were the same way. Braves. You name it.

    It helps to have the money, of course, if you use it right. Once you have that good core, then having money gets you the luxury of going out to get that stud Ace or stud Closer that would put you over the top, or that big power bat in the middle of the lineup. Name a team that has had a good run that was built primarily by bringing in free-agents. I don't think you can find one. If you spend that money and burn your prospects too soon, haven't developed that young core, and you don't end up getting good enough, you're done. You are dead in the water, and your only choices are to throw more money at the futile situation or sell off whatever isn't nailed down to gather as many prospects as you can. Failing to sell off your vets when their window was closed was one of the biggest reasons the past 15 years in M's baseball happened. When you're bad, you've got to have the patience to build that young core. We completely whiffed when we tried doing this recently, and now have no choice but to try again. It is a really hard thing to do because there is pressure on managers and GM's and they need to win to keep their jobs. Fans are sick of losing. However, if we spend more money now, flip prospects for vets now, we're only getting deeper in the quicksand. In baseball, there isn't any other way to do it.


    I agree, to a point. But the Yankees were more than just prospects that came good:

    World Series Champs by Yankees:
    1996- #1 in MLB payroll
    1998- #2
    1999- #1
    2000- #1
    2009- #1

    Even with a good core, the Yankees were paying a very high price for their success. The Mariners tried the prospect route and failed, epically. They have brought in some bigger free agents to mix with a young core and some solid vets. On paper, you'd hope it would work. I hope adding some defense and a better manager is enough.

    The thing with using prospects as a building block of your franchise is you have to get lucky, really lucky, and be very patient, as the Astros/Royals/Pirates have been.... or, you do what the Yankees did and spend big around great prospects. And once those prospects come good, will those teams hang on to them? If they do, they will be at or near the top of MLB payrolls...

    Point is, their is no "right way"... and I don't fear the Mariners are that far away. They could use a bit of luck though.

    To that, the Trumbo trade is interesting. It obviously saves alot of money, but leaves a big hole (two, really, three if you want another SP)...
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:51 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:I dunno Si. When the Yanks were winning really big, it wasn't primarily because of their payroll. When they were dominating, it was when they had Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Mariano, El Duque and middling vets. All guys that came up with them. It wasn't until after that success that they decided to throw money at their problems to try to keep winning, and they couldn't do it. When the Red Sox were contending every year, it was guys that had come up with them. They added Papi and Manny, but the rest of their core and pitchers were homegrown. Papi basically came up in their system too. Cardinals and Giants were the same way. Braves. You name it.

    It helps to have the money, of course, if you use it right. Once you have that good core, then having money gets you the luxury of going out to get that stud Ace or stud Closer that would put you over the top, or that big power bat in the middle of the lineup. Name a team that has had a good run that was built primarily by bringing in free-agents. I don't think you can find one. If you spend that money and burn your prospects too soon, haven't developed that young core, and you don't end up getting good enough, you're done. You are dead in the water, and your only choices are to throw more money at the futile situation or sell off whatever isn't nailed down to gather as many prospects as you can. Failing to sell off your vets when their window was closed was one of the biggest reasons the past 15 years in M's baseball happened. When you're bad, you've got to have the patience to build that young core. We completely whiffed when we tried doing this recently, and now have no choice but to try again. It is a really hard thing to do because there is pressure on managers and GM's and they need to win to keep their jobs. Fans are sick of losing. However, if we spend more money now, flip prospects for vets now, we're only getting deeper in the quicksand. In baseball, there isn't any other way to do it.


    I agree, to a point. But the Yankees were more than just prospects that came good:

    World Series Champs by Yankees:
    1996- #1 in MLB payroll
    1998- #2
    1999- #1
    2000- #1
    2009- #1

    Even with a good core, the Yankees were paying a very high price for their success. The Mariners tried the prospect route and failed, epically. They have brought in some bigger free agents to mix with a young core and some solid vets. On paper, you'd hope it would work. I hope adding some defense and a better manager is enough.

    The thing with using prospects as a building block of your franchise is you have to get lucky, really lucky, and be very patient, as the Astros/Royals/Pirates have been.... or, you do what the Yankees did and spend big around great prospects. And once those prospects come good, will those teams hang on to them? If they do, they will be at or near the top of MLB payrolls...

    Point is, their is no "right way"... and I don't fear the Mariners are that far away. They could use a bit of luck though.

    To that, the Trumbo trade is interesting. It obviously saves alot of money, but leaves a big hole (two, really, three if you want another SP)...


    Disagree with this, you have to have good scouting and evaluators, some teams can crank out prospects, others shop for them. We have had nothing since maybe the 80's here in any volume. Yanks have always spent money for vets going back to their first world series, they have also spent good money on their scouting departments and have really good talent evaluators. There is a reason they have won for a 100 yrs.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:15 pm
  • Love this pick up. Was hoping for it last year.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:20 pm
  • Should we sign Cliff Lee?He has been cleared to pitch again by doctors ect.I know he did well his last time in Seattle.I think he would be a low risk/high reward pickup as he is a FA
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:11 am
  • Iwa is a Dodger.

    Team needs a SP.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:02 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:Iwa is a Dodger.

    Team needs a SP.

    Read it this morning. Bummer.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:06 am
  • hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:Iwa is a Dodger.

    Team needs a SP.

    Read it this morning. Bummer.



    Yeah.. what now?
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:15 am
  • Should have traded him last summer, when we could have gotten something for him. Another stupid forced non move, by our ownership.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:32 am
  • CPHawk wrote:Should have traded him last summer, when we could have gotten something for him. Another stupid forced non move, by our ownership.


    Not necessarily. We should get an extra first round pick for him.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:42 am
  • CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
    CPHawk wrote:Should have traded him last summer, when we could have gotten something for him. Another stupid forced non move, by our ownership.


    Not necessarily. We should get an extra first round pick for him.



    Right...

    so what's the FA market look like at this point?
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:12 pm
  • Is it me or does this seem like a very underwhelming off season so far?
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:13 pm
  • Elias and smith traded for Wade Miley from Boston. I like Elias and Smith :(
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:24 pm
  • Glasgow Seahawk wrote:Elias and smith traded for Wade Miley from Boston. I like Elias and Smith :(


    What a stupid trade. Elias is equal to Miley but Elias is younger so he has the potentional to be better and Smith was fantastic out of the bullpen.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:26 pm
  • People are worked up over young pitchers getting traded. Smith and Elias are still prospects in my opinion. With Iwakuma gone they needed a decent pitcher and Miley is one.

    I must be the only one around that is fine with this trade. I mean what other decent quality starting pitchers could we get for Elias and Smith?
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:28 pm
  • dumbrabbit wrote:People are worked up over young pitchers getting traded. Smith and Elias are still prospects in my opinion. With Iwakuma gone they needed a decent pitcher and Miley is one.

    I must be the only one around that is fine with this trade. I mean what other decent quality starting pitchers could we get for Elias and Smith?


    I'm not sure but would rather have traded Paxton than either of those two.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:31 pm
  • It kind of appears that were in a mode to build a young field product that is going to take some lumps, I think that the draft and where we go there will be more telling. If we stock up on position versus pitchers or vice versa it will say something about all these moves we are seeing now.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:33 pm
  • Glasgow Seahawk wrote:
    dumbrabbit wrote:People are worked up over young pitchers getting traded. Smith and Elias are still prospects in my opinion. With Iwakuma gone they needed a decent pitcher and Miley is one.

    I must be the only one around that is fine with this trade. I mean what other decent quality starting pitchers could we get for Elias and Smith?


    I'm not sure but would rather have traded Paxton than either of those two.


    Paxton is a front-end potential, capable starter on other teams. I just don't like SP for SP trades.

    Elias and Smith are only like two years each into their MLB careers. Paxton has established himself. He would get a much larger haul.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:38 pm
  • dumbrabbit wrote:
    Glasgow Seahawk wrote:
    dumbrabbit wrote:People are worked up over young pitchers getting traded. Smith and Elias are still prospects in my opinion. With Iwakuma gone they needed a decent pitcher and Miley is one.

    I must be the only one around that is fine with this trade. I mean what other decent quality starting pitchers could we get for Elias and Smith?


    I'm not sure but would rather have traded Paxton than either of those two.


    Paxton is a front-end potential, capable starter on other teams. I just don't like SP for SP trades.

    Elias and Smith are only like two years each into their MLB careers. Paxton has established himself. He would get a much larger haul.


    He can't stay healthy though. What's the point having a SP that is out for large periods of time every season.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:11 pm
  • Paxton is a legit MLB pitcher. When healthy, he can be a legit #3 SP with potential to be a #2. Elias IMO is more of a project, I think at best he is a #4/5 SP. Losing Smith hurts, I liked him but he did struggle in the second half. Either way I don't like the trade. Wade Miley has been a gas can for the last two seasons. Not sure what the M's see in him. Seems like another JA Happ to me. You know what you are getting with him with little to no upside. Bringing in Miley has the same feeling as when the Hawks brought in Cary Williams.

    This rotation could be one of the worst we've had in years....i hope I'm wrong though.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:15 pm
  • Glasgow Seahawk wrote:
    dumbrabbit wrote:
    Glasgow Seahawk wrote:
    dumbrabbit wrote:People are worked up over young pitchers getting traded. Smith and Elias are still prospects in my opinion. With Iwakuma gone they needed a decent pitcher and Miley is one.

    I must be the only one around that is fine with this trade. I mean what other decent quality starting pitchers could we get for Elias and Smith?


    I'm not sure but would rather have traded Paxton than either of those two.


    Paxton is a front-end potential, capable starter on other teams. I just don't like SP for SP trades.

    Elias and Smith are only like two years each into their MLB careers. Paxton has established himself. He would get a much larger haul.


    He can't stay healthy though. What's the point having a SP that is out for large periods of time every season.


    Why would the Red Sox give up a durable Miley for an oft-injured player like Paxton then?
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:21 pm
  • Decent write up on the pros and cons of the trade...

    http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2015/12/7/9866944/mariners-trade-roenis-elias-and-carson-smith-for-wade-miley-and

    Couple points to take away:

    This trade is far from a steal for either side, with each team taking on a combination of risk/reward. Miley instantly becomes the Mariners 2nd best starting pitcher. he has averaged almost 200 IP, and accumulated over 10 fWAR over that time. In a market where Hisashi Iwakuma just got 45 million dollars at age 35 the 29 year old Miley is owed 15.5 million total through 2017, plus an option.

    The biggest loss is Carson Smith, who was the brightest star of 2015's bullpen.

    "The team is already rumored in other deals so expect rumors and deals to get pretty wild."
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:26 pm
  • I am kind of nervous about the state of the bull pen. Wasn't the bullpen for the Angels under Dipoto a big weakness as well minus Weaver and an overpaid CJ Wilson?
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:12 pm
  • I don't like the SP trade + we give up a young R pitcher..I hope Cliff Lee is coming back as FA,Hultzen returns to health,Paxton as well..I hope that new GM has a few good moves coming yet,not stupid ones either.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:47 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:Decent write up on the pros and cons of the trade...

    http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2015/12/7/9866944/mariners-trade-roenis-elias-and-carson-smith-for-wade-miley-and

    Couple points to take away:

    This trade is far from a steal for either side, with each team taking on a combination of risk/reward. Miley instantly becomes the Mariners 2nd best starting pitcher. he has averaged almost 200 IP, and accumulated over 10 fWAR over that time. In a market where Hisashi Iwakuma just got 45 million dollars at age 35 the 29 year old Miley is owed 15.5 million total through 2017, plus an option.

    The biggest loss is Carson Smith, who was the brightest star of 2015's bullpen.

    "The team is already rumored in other deals so expect rumors and deals to get pretty wild."


    If Miley is our second best pitcher going into the season then this team won't win many games. He is more of a #4/#5 SP. Still plenty of time to make moves, but both the starting rotation and bullpen have major holes right now.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:50 pm
  • I think were all going to have to look at things in a way that means were not going to win anything next year or the year after, this is full rebuild and re tooling and setting things up for moves down the road.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:17 pm
  • I'm of the wait and see crowd. I kind of like what we've done so far.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:32 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:I think were all going to have to look at things in a way that means were not going to win anything next year or the year after, this is full rebuild and re tooling and setting things up for moves down the road.


    And that's where the Mariners have an identity crisis. How can we rebuild when our 3 stars are not exactly young. Cruz, Felix and Cano aren't young studs. If they truly want to rebuild, then it might be time to ship.

    I was always under the impression that this team should just go for it now while the big 3 still have some youth on their side.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:25 pm
  • Hawk-Lock wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:I think were all going to have to look at things in a way that means were not going to win anything next year or the year after, this is full rebuild and re tooling and setting things up for moves down the road.


    And that's where the Mariners have an identity crisis. How can we rebuild when our 3 stars are not exactly young. Cruz, Felix and Cano aren't young studs. If they truly want to rebuild, then it might be time to ship.

    I was always under the impression that this team should just go for it now while the big 3 still have some youth on their side.


    You ship when you have leverage, that's when a team has a injury and a need to go for a pennant, I expect that to happen this coming season to get prospects.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:02 am
  • Dipoto is getting dependable players to plug in around the core. Look at the stats. Guys will get on base and pitchers will be available to pitch at least.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:01 pm
  • Subzero717 wrote:I'm of the wait and see crowd. I kind of like what we've done so far.


    Me too. Still a long offseason yet to go.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:38 am
  • Didn't like the trade with Boston. Elias seems like a younger version of Miley. Maybe I am wrong there. Miley is durable, and logs a lot of innings. I don't care too much about Carson Smith. I mean yes, it sucks that we lost our best reliever, but relievers are volatile, and change heavily from year to year. But Smith looks like a guy that could be very good for years to come. We'll see. It might be alright.

    Looks like the M's are closing in on Adam Lind. I wonder what the price is? DJ Peterson? I sure hope not.

    Dipoto literally can't sit still. He has no problem emptying out our system, and I love that he goes after guys that simply get on base.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:30 am

Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:33 am
  • Rob12 wrote:Didn't like the trade with Boston. Elias seems like a younger version of Miley. Maybe I am wrong there. Miley is durable, and logs a lot of innings. I don't care too much about Carson Smith. I mean yes, it sucks that we lost our best reliever, but relievers are volatile, and change heavily from year to year. But Smith looks like a guy that could be very good for years to come. We'll see. It might be alright.

    Looks like the M's are closing in on Adam Lind. I wonder what the price is? DJ Peterson? I sure hope not.

    Dipoto literally can't sit still. He has no problem emptying out our system, and I love that he goes after guys that simply get on base.

    I hear Zunino for Lind... I don't wanna give up DJ or mike. Rather get a FA Napoli.
    425HawkSpark
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:08 am
  • 425HawkSpark wrote:
    Rob12 wrote:Didn't like the trade with Boston. Elias seems like a younger version of Miley. Maybe I am wrong there. Miley is durable, and logs a lot of innings. I don't care too much about Carson Smith. I mean yes, it sucks that we lost our best reliever, but relievers are volatile, and change heavily from year to year. But Smith looks like a guy that could be very good for years to come. We'll see. It might be alright.

    Looks like the M's are closing in on Adam Lind. I wonder what the price is? DJ Peterson? I sure hope not.

    Dipoto literally can't sit still. He has no problem emptying out our system, and I love that he goes after guys that simply get on base.

    I hear Zunino for Lind... I don't wanna give up DJ or mike. Rather get a FA Napoli.


    I would be happy giving up Peterson for Lind. 3B is pretty much locked up for the next several years, and Peterson has injury issues. I would rather Dipoto draft his own guys and use Jack Z's prospects as bait.

    I do NOT want to give up Zunino. He is the M's future at catcher. I could be willing to move Jackson, but only for the right price.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:34 am
  • The rumor on twitter right now is that we might be getting Lind for two low-level prospects who are not on the 40-man roster. Lind is only here for 1 year (unless re-signed) and is generally a 1-2 WAR player at 1b, so would be a bit silly to give up DJ Peterson in a trade like that.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:46 pm
  • Done deal. We got Lind for 3 low level prospects. I like this move as he is only under contract for one year and we didn't give up much.
    Hawk-Lock
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:22 pm
  • Hawk-Lock wrote:Done deal. We got Lind for 3 low level prospects. I like this move as he is only under contract for one year and we didn't give up much.



    Thats some good work by the new GM
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:28 pm
  • Seeing all these trades is fun. Reminds me a bit of the 2010 Seahawks offseason.

    I liked the Aoki signing. It's a classic 'Honda civic' type move that Pat Gillick used to make all the time, a low cost vet that isn't going to headline, but will quietly add good value to the bottom line. It also gets Cruz out of right field.

    Parting ways with Trumbo made sense, at least if you buy into the value of defense. Trumbo had a good bat last season but he posted only a net WAR of 0.2 as a Mariner last year, with almost all of his offense being cancelled out by bad defense. If he repeated that performance in 2016, it would not be a good way to spend $9 million.

    By contrast, the Mariners acquired Adam Lind basically for a bag of Doritos, and Adam Lind is a much better fit for Dipoto's Mariners AND costs less money ($8 million in 2016). Yes, he's probably a rental player, but if he has a great year it could net Seattle an extra draft pick or maybe get trade deadline consideration. This was a pretty bad trade by Milwaukie to give up a 2 WAR player making only $8 million.

    Lind is a very consistent player at the plate, decently comparable to Kyle Seager if Seager had less pop and drew more walks. Lind's defense is his weak point, but even with bad defense he's still a good bet for 2 WAR. Lind has been worth a combined 7 WAR the past 3 seasons and was worth 3.1 WAR last year, thanks to his defense being better. Lind also bats left and his gap power is a good fit for Safeco. At 32, he still figures to have at least 1 prime year left. It's only a 1 year solution most likely but regardless this was a very nice pickup for Seattle to address a need at 1B. It reminds me a bit of the Raul Ibanez signing in 2004.

    I'm not all that high on the Ianetta signing, he was awful last year, but so were all our other catchers and Ianetta has been good in the past. Hard to complain about the pricetag though (1 year, $4.25m). Like most GMs, Dipoto has a bias towards his former players at previous jobs. Ianetta was Dipoto's handpicked catcher in Anaheim.

    Joaquin Benoit was a nice pickup. I always love it when my team is on the receiving end of a fire sale trade. Unfortunately, the bullpen might not be able to hand leads to Benoit in the ninth as much anymore with Dipoto dealing our three best setup men.

    I have mixed feelings on the Leonys Martin trade. For starters, he's a defense guy with a bad bat, who used to have a good bat. In other words, he's basically the CF equivalent of Brendan Ryan. Brendan Ryan's bat actually got worse in Seattle, and though he was probably the best defensive shortstop in the game, nobody missed him when the Mariners eventually kicked his ass to the curb. Like Ryan, Martin presents decent bang for the buck ($4.75m in 2016 for a guy that was a 1 WAR player isn't terrible). This trade is also a bit like the Austin Jackson trade in the sense that Jackson was a buy low guy who could maybe bounce back.

    But I just can't help but think that Martin probably won't bounce back and we'll probably hate seeing him in the lineup every day. There's a reason a division rival was willing to trade him to us despite his past history of being a 4.6 WAR player as recently as 2014.

    I'm okay with losing James Jones, he's a career AAA player IMO. But losing Wilhelmsen hurts especially after he turned things around last season. So while the trade has a chance to work out nicely, I think the odds are that Seattle cuts Martin after one unpleasant season and we'll miss Wilhelmsen. IMO, it was too much to give up for Brendan Ryan, the OF.

    Seattle gave up a lot to get Nathan Karns but I think it's an okay trade. I think Tampa won the trade more than Seattle, but I think Seattle will get more out of Karns than they would have out of the players they gave up since they didn't fit Dipoto's model. Karns is an excellent strikeout pitcher with high walks and a slightly above average FIP. He's basically a better version of 2014 Roenis Elias. Seattle also got a high OBP CF in Powell that might reach the majors at some point. Overall it was a solid trade.

    My least favorite transaction was the Elias / Smith swap for Wade Miley and a AAA reliever. Miley is better than Elias, but not by much. The part that sucks is that Elias isn't even the best player Seattle gave up. Carson Smith is one of the best setup pitchers in the game. Last season he nearly matched Miley's WAR despite having less than half as many innings.

    Miley has hidden value in that he's both consistent and durable, and his financial cost is fair (2y/$15m) but he's not worth Carson Smith. Seattle would have been better this season with Smith and Elias than with Miley, and would have saved money to boot. Sounds like Miley was drafted by the Dbacks when Dipoto was there, so this move smacks of Dipoto overvaluing his own players and undervaluing Jack Z's players.

    Dipoto also let Iwakuma walk for a reasonable amount of money. He's probably scared of the history of Japanese pitchers having an early decline, but not keeping Iwakuma flies in the face of all the other "win now" moves he's been making.

    Overall, the offseason has been a mixed bag. While many of the moves are smart, the overall amalgamation of these moves has made the roster older and only just barely better. If Dipoto wants to go 'win now' mode then fine, but then why hurt the team by trading Carson Smith and letting Iwakuma walk? Hopefully there is something big up his sleeve yet to come, because right now the Mariners probably still need to add 5 more wins to their team to have a realistic opportunity at the playoffs.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:31 pm
  • great write up.. you forgot Scribner...
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:39 pm
  • dumbrabbit wrote:
    425HawkSpark wrote:
    Rob12 wrote:Didn't like the trade with Boston. Elias seems like a younger version of Miley. Maybe I am wrong there. Miley is durable, and logs a lot of innings. I don't care too much about Carson Smith. I mean yes, it sucks that we lost our best reliever, but relievers are volatile, and change heavily from year to year. But Smith looks like a guy that could be very good for years to come. We'll see. It might be alright.

    Looks like the M's are closing in on Adam Lind. I wonder what the price is? DJ Peterson? I sure hope not.

    Dipoto literally can't sit still. He has no problem emptying out our system, and I love that he goes after guys that simply get on base.

    I hear Zunino for Lind... I don't wanna give up DJ or mike. Rather get a FA Napoli.


    I would be happy giving up Peterson for Lind. 3B is pretty much locked up for the next several years, and Peterson has injury issues. I would rather Dipoto draft his own guys and use Jack Z's prospects as bait.

    I do NOT want to give up Zunino. He is the M's future at catcher. I could be willing to move Jackson, but only for the right price.


    Peterson played 1B in Tacoma and projects there at the MLB level. He's been a disappointment and didn't have a great showing in the AFL, either. He needs to have a great bounce back year.

    Three low level, 19 year old pitchers to the Brewers for Lind. I'll take it. Now we just have to figure out who his platoon partner will be. I wouldn't mind if Montero was given every opportunity to make the team out of ST to platoon with Lind, but I don't think Jerry can stomach his defense.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:55 pm
  • kearly wrote:Seeing all these trades is fun. Reminds me a bit of the 2010 Seahawks offseason.

    I liked the Aoki signing. It's a classic 'Honda civic' type move that Pat Gillick used to make all the time, a low cost vet that isn't going to headline, but will quietly add good value to the bottom line. It also gets Cruz out of right field.

    Parting ways with Trumbo made sense, at least if you buy into the value of defense. Trumbo had a good bat last season but he posted only a net WAR of 0.2 as a Mariner last year, with almost all of his offense being cancelled out by bad defense. If he repeated that performance in 2016, it would not be a good way to spend $9 million.

    By contrast, the Mariners acquired Adam Lind basically for a bag of Doritos, and Adam Lind is a much better fit for Dipoto's Mariners AND costs less money ($8 million in 2016). Yes, he's probably a rental player, but if he has a great year it could net Seattle an extra draft pick or maybe get trade deadline consideration. This was a pretty bad trade by Milwaukie to give up a 2 WAR player making only $8 million.

    Lind is a very consistent player at the plate, decently comparable to Kyle Seager if Seager had less pop and drew more walks. Lind's defense is his weak point, but even with bad defense he's still a good bet for 2 WAR. Lind has been worth a combined 7 WAR the past 3 seasons and was worth 3.1 WAR last year, thanks to his defense being better. Lind also bats left and his gap power is a good fit for Safeco. At 32, he still figures to have at least 1 prime year left. It's only a 1 year solution most likely but regardless this was a very nice pickup for Seattle to address a need at 1B. It reminds me a bit of the Raul Ibanez signing in 2004.

    I'm not all that high on the Ianetta signing, he was awful last year, but so were all our other catchers and Ianetta has been good in the past. Hard to complain about the pricetag though (1 year, $4.25m). Like most GMs, Dipoto has a bias towards his former players at previous jobs. Ianetta was Dipoto's handpicked catcher in Anaheim.

    Joaquin Benoit was a nice pickup. I always love it when my team is on the receiving end of a fire sale trade. Unfortunately, the bullpen might not be able to hand leads to Benoit in the ninth as much anymore with Dipoto dealing our three best setup men.

    I have mixed feelings on the Leonys Martin trade. For starters, he's a defense guy with a bad bat, who used to have a good bat. In other words, he's basically the CF equivalent of Brendan Ryan. Brendan Ryan's bat actually got worse in Seattle, and though he was probably the best defensive shortstop in the game, nobody missed him when the Mariners eventually kicked his ass to the curb. Like Ryan, Martin presents decent bang for the buck ($4.75m in 2016 for a guy that was a 1 WAR player isn't terrible). This trade is also a bit like the Austin Jackson trade in the sense that Jackson was a buy low guy who could maybe bounce back.

    But I just can't help but think that Martin probably won't bounce back and we'll probably hate seeing him in the lineup every day. There's a reason a division rival was willing to trade him to us despite his past history of being a 4.6 WAR player as recently as 2014.

    I'm okay with losing James Jones, he's a career AAA player IMO. But losing Wilhelmsen hurts especially after he turned things around last season. So while the trade has a chance to work out nicely, I think the odds are that Seattle cuts Martin after one unpleasant season and we'll miss Wilhelmsen. IMO, it was too much to give up for Brendan Ryan, the OF.

    Seattle gave up a lot to get Nathan Karns but I think it's an okay trade. I think Tampa won the trade more than Seattle, but I think Seattle will get more out of Karns than they would have out of the players they gave up since they didn't fit Dipoto's model. Karns is an excellent strikeout pitcher with high walks and a slightly above average FIP. He's basically a better version of 2014 Roenis Elias. Seattle also got a high OBP CF in Powell that might reach the majors at some point. Overall it was a solid trade.

    My least favorite transaction was the Elias / Smith swap for Wade Miley and a AAA reliever. Miley is better than Elias, but not by much. The part that sucks is that Elias isn't even the best player Seattle gave up. Carson Smith is one of the best setup pitchers in the game. Last season he nearly matched Miley's WAR despite having less than half as many innings.

    Miley has hidden value in that he's both consistent and durable, and his financial cost is fair (2y/$15m) but he's not worth Carson Smith. Seattle would have been better this season with Smith and Elias than with Miley, and would have saved money to boot. Sounds like Miley was drafted by the Dbacks when Dipoto was there, so this move smacks of Dipoto overvaluing his own players and undervaluing Jack Z's players.

    Dipoto also let Iwakuma walk for a reasonable amount of money. He's probably scared of the history of Japanese pitchers having an early decline, but not keeping Iwakuma flies in the face of all the other "win now" moves he's been making.

    Overall, the offseason has been a mixed bag. While many of the moves are smart, the overall amalgamation of these moves has made the roster older and only just barely better. If Dipoto wants to go 'win now' mode then fine, but then why hurt the team by trading Carson Smith and letting Iwakuma walk? Hopefully there is something big up his sleeve yet to come, because right now the Mariners probably still need to add 5 more wins to their team to have a realistic opportunity at the playoffs.


    Nice write up Kip. I like the moves overall so far, now will to translate to wins???? Who knows. I like the fact he is clearing out a lot of deadwood and going with his guys.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:20 am
  • kearly wrote:Seeing all these trades is fun. Reminds me a bit of the 2010 Seahawks offseason.

    I liked the Aoki signing. It's a classic 'Honda civic' type move that Pat Gillick used to make all the time, a low cost vet that isn't going to headline, but will quietly add good value to the bottom line. It also gets Cruz out of right field.

    Parting ways with Trumbo made sense, at least if you buy into the value of defense. Trumbo had a good bat last season but he posted only a net WAR of 0.2 as a Mariner last year, with almost all of his offense being cancelled out by bad defense. If he repeated that performance in 2016, it would not be a good way to spend $9 million.

    By contrast, the Mariners acquired Adam Lind basically for a bag of Doritos, and Adam Lind is a much better fit for Dipoto's Mariners AND costs less money ($8 million in 2016). Yes, he's probably a rental player, but if he has a great year it could net Seattle an extra draft pick or maybe get trade deadline consideration. This was a pretty bad trade by Milwaukie to give up a 2 WAR player making only $8 million.

    Lind is a very consistent player at the plate, decently comparable to Kyle Seager if Seager had less pop and drew more walks. Lind's defense is his weak point, but even with bad defense he's still a good bet for 2 WAR. Lind has been worth a combined 7 WAR the past 3 seasons and was worth 3.1 WAR last year, thanks to his defense being better. Lind also bats left and his gap power is a good fit for Safeco. At 32, he still figures to have at least 1 prime year left. It's only a 1 year solution most likely but regardless this was a very nice pickup for Seattle to address a need at 1B. It reminds me a bit of the Raul Ibanez signing in 2004.

    I'm not all that high on the Ianetta signing, he was awful last year, but so were all our other catchers and Ianetta has been good in the past. Hard to complain about the pricetag though (1 year, $4.25m). Like most GMs, Dipoto has a bias towards his former players at previous jobs. Ianetta was Dipoto's handpicked catcher in Anaheim.

    Joaquin Benoit was a nice pickup. I always love it when my team is on the receiving end of a fire sale trade. Unfortunately, the bullpen might not be able to hand leads to Benoit in the ninth as much anymore with Dipoto dealing our three best setup men.

    I have mixed feelings on the Leonys Martin trade. For starters, he's a defense guy with a bad bat, who used to have a good bat. In other words, he's basically the CF equivalent of Brendan Ryan. Brendan Ryan's bat actually got worse in Seattle, and though he was probably the best defensive shortstop in the game, nobody missed him when the Mariners eventually kicked his ass to the curb. Like Ryan, Martin presents decent bang for the buck ($4.75m in 2016 for a guy that was a 1 WAR player isn't terrible). This trade is also a bit like the Austin Jackson trade in the sense that Jackson was a buy low guy who could maybe bounce back.

    But I just can't help but think that Martin probably won't bounce back and we'll probably hate seeing him in the lineup every day. There's a reason a division rival was willing to trade him to us despite his past history of being a 4.6 WAR player as recently as 2014.

    I'm okay with losing James Jones, he's a career AAA player IMO. But losing Wilhelmsen hurts especially after he turned things around last season. So while the trade has a chance to work out nicely, I think the odds are that Seattle cuts Martin after one unpleasant season and we'll miss Wilhelmsen. IMO, it was too much to give up for Brendan Ryan, the OF.

    Seattle gave up a lot to get Nathan Karns but I think it's an okay trade. I think Tampa won the trade more than Seattle, but I think Seattle will get more out of Karns than they would have out of the players they gave up since they didn't fit Dipoto's model. Karns is an excellent strikeout pitcher with high walks and a slightly above average FIP. He's basically a better version of 2014 Roenis Elias. Seattle also got a high OBP CF in Powell that might reach the majors at some point. Overall it was a solid trade.

    My least favorite transaction was the Elias / Smith swap for Wade Miley and a AAA reliever. Miley is better than Elias, but not by much. The part that sucks is that Elias isn't even the best player Seattle gave up. Carson Smith is one of the best setup pitchers in the game. Last season he nearly matched Miley's WAR despite having less than half as many innings.

    Miley has hidden value in that he's both consistent and durable, and his financial cost is fair (2y/$15m) but he's not worth Carson Smith. Seattle would have been better this season with Smith and Elias than with Miley, and would have saved money to boot. Sounds like Miley was drafted by the Dbacks when Dipoto was there, so this move smacks of Dipoto overvaluing his own players and undervaluing Jack Z's players.

    Dipoto also let Iwakuma walk for a reasonable amount of money. He's probably scared of the history of Japanese pitchers having an early decline, but not keeping Iwakuma flies in the face of all the other "win now" moves he's been making.

    Overall, the offseason has been a mixed bag. While many of the moves are smart, the overall amalgamation of these moves has made the roster older and only just barely better. If Dipoto wants to go 'win now' mode then fine, but then why hurt the team by trading Carson Smith and letting Iwakuma walk? Hopefully there is something big up his sleeve yet to come, because right now the Mariners probably still need to add 5 more wins to their team to have a realistic opportunity at the playoffs.

    Bo knows hockey?


    I really wanted Dipoto to go as young as possible and go all Houston Astros on us, but I'm sure the front office gave him firm instructions to try and win now, which IMO is going to cost him his job, unless he can draft ridiculously well and we get really lucky on some kids that currently aren't projected to amount to much.

    At the very least, I think it is a good thing that we got rid of a bunch of guys that "definitely" aren't any good and got a bunch of players that only "probably" aren't any good.

    I think we are bad, overpriced, and old, and just got rid of some promising teenaged pitchers to try to make us not as bad. I was listening to the MLB network the other day and I couldn't make out who, but somebody said we had the worst minor league system of any team in 25 years.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:37 am
  • Tical21 wrote:
    kearly wrote:Seeing all these trades is fun. Reminds me a bit of the 2010 Seahawks offseason.

    I liked the Aoki signing. It's a classic 'Honda civic' type move that Pat Gillick used to make all the time, a low cost vet that isn't going to headline, but will quietly add good value to the bottom line. It also gets Cruz out of right field.

    Parting ways with Trumbo made sense, at least if you buy into the value of defense. Trumbo had a good bat last season but he posted only a net WAR of 0.2 as a Mariner last year, with almost all of his offense being cancelled out by bad defense. If he repeated that performance in 2016, it would not be a good way to spend $9 million.

    By contrast, the Mariners acquired Adam Lind basically for a bag of Doritos, and Adam Lind is a much better fit for Dipoto's Mariners AND costs less money ($8 million in 2016). Yes, he's probably a rental player, but if he has a great year it could net Seattle an extra draft pick or maybe get trade deadline consideration. This was a pretty bad trade by Milwaukie to give up a 2 WAR player making only $8 million.

    Lind is a very consistent player at the plate, decently comparable to Kyle Seager if Seager had less pop and drew more walks. Lind's defense is his weak point, but even with bad defense he's still a good bet for 2 WAR. Lind has been worth a combined 7 WAR the past 3 seasons and was worth 3.1 WAR last year, thanks to his defense being better. Lind also bats left and his gap power is a good fit for Safeco. At 32, he still figures to have at least 1 prime year left. It's only a 1 year solution most likely but regardless this was a very nice pickup for Seattle to address a need at 1B. It reminds me a bit of the Raul Ibanez signing in 2004.

    I'm not all that high on the Ianetta signing, he was awful last year, but so were all our other catchers and Ianetta has been good in the past. Hard to complain about the pricetag though (1 year, $4.25m). Like most GMs, Dipoto has a bias towards his former players at previous jobs. Ianetta was Dipoto's handpicked catcher in Anaheim.

    Joaquin Benoit was a nice pickup. I always love it when my team is on the receiving end of a fire sale trade. Unfortunately, the bullpen might not be able to hand leads to Benoit in the ninth as much anymore with Dipoto dealing our three best setup men.

    I have mixed feelings on the Leonys Martin trade. For starters, he's a defense guy with a bad bat, who used to have a good bat. In other words, he's basically the CF equivalent of Brendan Ryan. Brendan Ryan's bat actually got worse in Seattle, and though he was probably the best defensive shortstop in the game, nobody missed him when the Mariners eventually kicked his ass to the curb. Like Ryan, Martin presents decent bang for the buck ($4.75m in 2016 for a guy that was a 1 WAR player isn't terrible). This trade is also a bit like the Austin Jackson trade in the sense that Jackson was a buy low guy who could maybe bounce back.

    But I just can't help but think that Martin probably won't bounce back and we'll probably hate seeing him in the lineup every day. There's a reason a division rival was willing to trade him to us despite his past history of being a 4.6 WAR player as recently as 2014.

    I'm okay with losing James Jones, he's a career AAA player IMO. But losing Wilhelmsen hurts especially after he turned things around last season. So while the trade has a chance to work out nicely, I think the odds are that Seattle cuts Martin after one unpleasant season and we'll miss Wilhelmsen. IMO, it was too much to give up for Brendan Ryan, the OF.

    Seattle gave up a lot to get Nathan Karns but I think it's an okay trade. I think Tampa won the trade more than Seattle, but I think Seattle will get more out of Karns than they would have out of the players they gave up since they didn't fit Dipoto's model. Karns is an excellent strikeout pitcher with high walks and a slightly above average FIP. He's basically a better version of 2014 Roenis Elias. Seattle also got a high OBP CF in Powell that might reach the majors at some point. Overall it was a solid trade.

    My least favorite transaction was the Elias / Smith swap for Wade Miley and a AAA reliever. Miley is better than Elias, but not by much. The part that sucks is that Elias isn't even the best player Seattle gave up. Carson Smith is one of the best setup pitchers in the game. Last season he nearly matched Miley's WAR despite having less than half as many innings.

    Miley has hidden value in that he's both consistent and durable, and his financial cost is fair (2y/$15m) but he's not worth Carson Smith. Seattle would have been better this season with Smith and Elias than with Miley, and would have saved money to boot. Sounds like Miley was drafted by the Dbacks when Dipoto was there, so this move smacks of Dipoto overvaluing his own players and undervaluing Jack Z's players.

    Dipoto also let Iwakuma walk for a reasonable amount of money. He's probably scared of the history of Japanese pitchers having an early decline, but not keeping Iwakuma flies in the face of all the other "win now" moves he's been making.

    Overall, the offseason has been a mixed bag. While many of the moves are smart, the overall amalgamation of these moves has made the roster older and only just barely better. If Dipoto wants to go 'win now' mode then fine, but then why hurt the team by trading Carson Smith and letting Iwakuma walk? Hopefully there is something big up his sleeve yet to come, because right now the Mariners probably still need to add 5 more wins to their team to have a realistic opportunity at the playoffs.

    Bo knows hockey?


    I really wanted Dipoto to go as young as possible and go all Houston Astros on us, but I'm sure the front office gave him firm instructions to try and win now, which IMO is going to cost him his job, unless he can draft ridiculously well and we get really lucky on some kids that currently aren't projected to amount to much.

    At the very least, I think it is a good thing that we got rid of a bunch of guys that "definitely" aren't any good and got a bunch of players that only "probably" aren't any good.

    I think we are bad, overpriced, and old, and just got rid of some promising teenaged pitchers to try to make us not as bad. I was listening to the MLB network the other day and I couldn't make out who, but somebody said we had the worst minor league system of any team in 25 years.


    we were projected to win 90+ games last year... and have arguably gotten better. I guess the question will be whether last year was an anomaly of the talent we have, or we are you say.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:26 pm
  • Nice write up Kearly and Ticals 2 bits.I didn't realize you both are M's fans but I like that.
    IndyHawk
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