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Mariners OFF-season thread

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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:43 am
  • For all the bashing Miller takes on here, some of it deserved, he has a chance to become the next Mariner to blossom once he's out of Seattle. I won't spend too much time mourning a player who just finished having a mediocre overall season, but at one point mid-season he was one of the most valuable shortstops in the game, playing excellent defense, with an above-average bat at the position. He wasn't able to maintain it or put it all together, but the tools are there for Miller to be an excellent player.

    Karns seems like a good pickup. The other two may or may not ever contribute significantly, but then, LoMo wasn't going to either, and Farquhar may well be done.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:29 am
  • Dipoto said we need to get more athletic in the outfield.

    Image

    Nailed it.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:37 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:Dipoto said we need to get more athletic in the outfield.

    Image

    Nailed it.

    I get this Sarge. Nice.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:37 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:Dipoto said we need to get more athletic in the outfield.

    Image

    Nailed it.

    Still slimmer than Bartolo Colon. 8)
    Sports Hernia
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:23 pm
  • Death to flying things for another year.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:46 am
  • Gutierrez got a one year after surprisingly staying healthy last year. 4th outfielder I'd imagine.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:11 pm
  • We just traded for Joaquin Benoit. He is one of the better relievers in the game, but he is 38. I believe he is only signed through 2016 at about 8 mill a year so not much of a risky deal there. I'm okay with this move, bullpen needed help.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:41 pm
  • Hawk-Lock wrote:We just traded for Joaquin Benoit. He is one of the better relievers in the game, but he is 38. I believe he is only signed through 2016 at about 8 mill a year so not much of a risky deal there. I'm okay with this move, bullpen needed help.

    Dipoto definitely working on that below avg bullpen.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:26 pm

Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:52 pm
  • I dunno, I was liking the bartender last year, and I kind of gave up on Martin ever being able to hit. I was really intrigued by him a couple of years ago, but I think our bullpen got weaker today and I don't know that Martin will be on the big league roster after the all-start break.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:10 pm
  • I love the Martin trade. He had a really bad year last year, but his defense and speed alone make him a great fit for Safeco. I think with a fresh start in Seattle he could be a really good player.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:02 am
  • HawkFan72 wrote:I love the Martin trade. He had a really bad year last year, but his defense and speed alone make him a great fit for Safeco. I think with a fresh start in Seattle he could be a really good player.


    Great in the field, can't hit.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:43 am
  • DTexHawk wrote:Great in the field, can't hit.


    As a Mariners fan, this sentence is very familiar. I think it's our team motto or something.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:19 pm
  • Chapow wrote:
    DTexHawk wrote:Great in the field, can't hit.


    As a Mariners fan, this sentence is very familiar. I think it's our team motto or something.

    No. Our motto under Jack Z was has a lot of pop in his bat but struggles to get on base.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:56 pm
  • I like that Dipoto is actively making changes and appears to have a vision of what he thinks it'll take to succeed at Safeco. I'm not crazy about losing Miller and Lomo (28 homers between them) or Wilhelmsen but I'm willing to see how it all pans out. Maybe he'll seek a decent free agent bat or make another big trade during the winter meetings. Karns is a great young arm and #3 starter in the rotation.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:59 pm
  • West TX Hawk wrote:I like that Dipoto is actively making changes and appears to have a vision of what he thinks it'll take to succeed at Safeco. I'm not crazy about losing Miller and Lomo (28 homers between them) or Wilhelmsen but I'm willing to see how it all pans out. Maybe he'll seek a decent free agent bat or make another big trade during the winter meetings. Karns is a great young arm and #3 starter in the rotation.

    Hope he's as smart as he is aggressive.
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Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:30 am
  • Dipoto has made some interesting moves so far. I kind of have a feeling that he knows what he's doing. With some money coming off of the books, I'd love to see them splash and sign Heyward. He would be a huge get - and an outfield of Guti/Smith/Martin/Heyward would be amazing defensively. It would be the antithesis of what Jack Z did.

    The King/Cano/Cruz/Seager window won't be open forever. I think if this team wants to win a WS any time soon, they need to go all in now before the core gets too old.

    Martin, CF
    Heyward, RF
    Cruz, DH
    Cano, 2B
    Seager, 3B
    Trumbo, 1B
    Guti, LF
    Zunino, C
    Marte, SS

    That's a great looking squad. Obviously, we need to hope that the horrible season that Martin had last season was just a blip on the radar. He's great defensively and has a top 3 OF arm. The black hole in the lineup would be Zunino, who was completely ruined by the Z regime. Edgar really has his work cut out for him in Zunino. Hopefully Dipoto signs a catcher and Mike can spend most of 2016 in AAA.

    Dipoto isn't even close to being done yet. Signing Heyward is a long shot but that could be a move that really sets things in motion.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:31 pm

Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:40 pm

Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:58 pm
  • Rob12 wrote: The black hole in the lineup would be Zunino, who was completely ruined by the Z regime. Edgar really has his work cut out for him in Zunino. Hopefully Dipoto signs a catcher and Mike can spend most of 2016 in AAA.

    Dipoto isn't even close to being done yet. Signing Heyward is a long shot but that could be a move that really sets things in motion.


    And so we signed a catcher today. http://m.mariners.mlb.com/news/article/ ... s-iannetta

    Chris Ianetta, 32, the Angels' catcher the last 4 seasons. He had a rough year, hitting .188 10hr 32 rbi in 92 games; career OBP .351 though and career avg. .252; 1 year stop-gap at $4.25 mil + incentives with option to vest next year; We'll see how he does but we are really becoming the Seattle Angels.

    And I too think Heyward would be a good signing. We still need more pop and athleticism in the lineup and he's got both. Should be some interesting winter meetings this year.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:55 pm
  • West TX Hawk wrote:
    Rob12 wrote: The black hole in the lineup would be Zunino, who was completely ruined by the Z regime. Edgar really has his work cut out for him in Zunino. Hopefully Dipoto signs a catcher and Mike can spend most of 2016 in AAA.

    Dipoto isn't even close to being done yet. Signing Heyward is a long shot but that could be a move that really sets things in motion.


    And so we signed a catcher today. http://m.mariners.mlb.com/news/article/ ... s-iannetta

    Chris Ianetta, 32, the Angels' catcher the last 4 seasons. He had a rough year, hitting .188 10hr 32 rbi in 92 games; career OBP .351 though and career avg. .252; 1 year stop-gap at $4.25 mil + incentives with option to vest next year; We'll see how he does but we are really becoming the Seattle Angels.

    And I too think Heyward would be a good signing. We still need more pop and athleticism in the lineup and he's got both. Should be some interesting winter meetings this year.

    That surely means Zunino will be in Tacoma this year? I hope he's able to recover from being rushed to the Show.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:30 pm
  • Sports Hernia wrote:
    Hasselbeck wrote:Cano reportedly wants out and to rejoin the Yankees.

    Great signing guys. :lol:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2592 ... g-national

    Bleacher report is the sports equivalent of the national enquirer.


    They're not the original source of the rumor.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:28 am
  • I'm not feeling Heyward for that dough. His name is bigger than his production, and we've seen what happens when national leaguers transfer their skills to Safeco. His .293 with 13 HR ends up at .245 with 9 HR really quick. We need a couple guys that can get on base, as do about 30 other teams. Who is going to hit leadoff?
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:52 am
  • hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
    West TX Hawk wrote:
    Rob12 wrote: The black hole in the lineup would be Zunino, who was completely ruined by the Z regime. Edgar really has his work cut out for him in Zunino. Hopefully Dipoto signs a catcher and Mike can spend most of 2016 in AAA.

    Dipoto isn't even close to being done yet. Signing Heyward is a long shot but that could be a move that really sets things in motion.


    And so we signed a catcher today. http://m.mariners.mlb.com/news/article/ ... s-iannetta

    Chris Ianetta, 32, the Angels' catcher the last 4 seasons. He had a rough year, hitting .188 10hr 32 rbi in 92 games; career OBP .351 though and career avg. .252; 1 year stop-gap at $4.25 mil + incentives with option to vest next year; We'll see how he does but we are really becoming the Seattle Angels.

    And I too think Heyward would be a good signing. We still need more pop and athleticism in the lineup and he's got both. Should be some interesting winter meetings this year.

    That surely means Zunino will be in Tacoma this year? I hope he's able to recover from being rushed to the Show.


    yep i highly doubt we bring him back next season. The dude is getting special hitting treatment with coaches, too. He had no business being the big leagues.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:40 am
  • Hasselbeck wrote:
    Sports Hernia wrote:
    Hasselbeck wrote:Cano reportedly wants out and to rejoin the Yankees.

    Great signing guys. :lol:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2592 ... g-national

    Bleacher report is the sports equivalent of the national enquirer.


    They're not the original source of the rumor.


    True, but the cited source was iffy at best and since that weak offseason rumor emerged there has been a video posted by Cano tagging the M's with the caption, "getting ready for the season."
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:49 pm
  • Dipoto pretty much said that most aquistions would be made via trades. Don't expect any splashy signings.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:17 pm
  • Hasselbeck wrote:Cano reportedly wants out and to rejoin the Yankees.

    Great signing guys. :lol:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2592 ... g-national


    Bleacher Report is a hack site, but I still believe it.

    I also believe Dipoto called Cano's agent and said "It ain't happening bro, so tell Robbie to knock it off he isn't going anywhere."

    Thus the backtracking and Dipoto's statement today.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:19 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Hasselbeck wrote:Cano reportedly wants out and to rejoin the Yankees.

    Great signing guys. :lol:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2592 ... g-national


    Bleacher Report is a hack site, but I still believe it.

    I also believe Dipoto called Cano's agent and said "It ain't happening bro, so tell Robbie to knock it off he isn't going anywhere."

    Thus the backtracking and Dipoto's statement today.


    I could have told anyone that the Cano signing was a bad one the minute he inked the contract. 10 year contracts are never a good thing, especially if the player will be playing the majority of that contract in his mid to late 30's.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:23 pm
  • Hawk-Lock wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Hasselbeck wrote:Cano reportedly wants out and to rejoin the Yankees.

    Great signing guys. :lol:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2592 ... g-national


    Bleacher Report is a hack site, but I still believe it.

    I also believe Dipoto called Cano's agent and said "It ain't happening bro, so tell Robbie to knock it off he isn't going anywhere."

    Thus the backtracking and Dipoto's statement today.


    I could have told anyone that the Cano signing was a bad one the minute he inked the contract. 10 year contracts are never a good thing, especially if the player will be playing the majority of that contract in his mid to late 30's.


    No one thinks 10 year contracts are a good idea, but when you're the Seattle Mariners and you've stunk the past 10-12 years, it's the only way a player of Cano's skill is going to sign with you.

    So I get it, and I was OK with the signing, still am. Cano just needs a manager that knows how to motivate him.......cause Lloyd obviously wasn't doing it.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:44 pm
  • The M's signed Chris Iannetta, a career .232 hitter and posted a BA of .188, to be their starting catcher. Only the Mariners would see this as an upgrade. :34853_doh:
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:33 pm
  • hawkfan68 wrote:The M's signed Chris Iannetta, a career .232 hitter and posted a BA of .188, to be their starting catcher. Only the Mariners would see this as an upgrade. :34853_doh:


    Well, its more about putting Zunino in a developmental role that can hopefully fix his offense than upgrade. At worst Ianneta provides the same performance of last years catchers. At best you get a little more hitting and a guy who can get on base better. But the trade off is giving Zunino the best opportunity to improve and re-develop.

    Ianneta was also the 2nd best pitch framer in 2015 and comes cheaper than most pegged him for.

    Low key move but it could pay off better.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:28 pm
  • The source on the Cano rumor was a "long time friend." And wasn't it the New York Daily News that first "broke" this rumor? Isn't that rag nothing more than a tabloid - and a New York based one at that? Come on Hasselbeck, do you really believe that? He has $192 million reasons to be just fine with being a Mariner. I thought we Seahawks fans know better than to believe unnamed or anonymous sources.

    I actually like the idea of converting Cano to first base. He's been declining defensively at a breakneck pace. I don't entirely trust defensive metrics all the time, but he's not passing the eye test. I doubt his ego would let this happen, but Dipoto won't care if that's what is best for the team.

    Iannetta was a good signing. One year at $4.25 million is basically 50-75 percent of the value that he was expected to get. He's good defensively, and despite a poor showing in 2015, he's not the black hole that Zunino was. This is also good because it doesn't force the team to bring Zunino north at the end of Spring Training. He needs at least a half season in Tacoma to continue to work on his swing. As someone else said in this thread, he has no business being in the big leagues right now. It's worthless to judge him based off his batting average. Modern metrics render that stat useless. He has a .756 career OPS and should be good for 1.5/2 WAR. He is one of the best in the game at framing pitches. That means the team is getting better at the position. Great signing for peanuts.

    Jerry seems to like trading for solid players coming off of bad years. I hope it works out. Time well tell, but I love the fact that the team has gotten much more athletic in the outfield and should be a better defensive ball club.

    Sign Iwakuma now. Still a lot of offseason left.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:33 pm
  • So were the Washington Redskins of Baseball now?
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:26 am
  • So the Marlins MLB.com beat writer (Frisaro is his name, look him up on Twitter) and Jerry Crasnick is reporting that the M's are making a big push for Ozuna. But Frisaro says the deal will be bigger than that. That leads me to at least wonder if Jose Fernandez is a part of the talks. For as insanely talented as he is, I guess he has some big issues with his attitude.

    Ozuna and Fernandez to Seattle? That would be insane. The package heading out would be huge. Probably something to the effect of Paxton, Walker, Peterson, Alex Jackson? It would be A LOT.

    Gonna be interesting to say the least.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:07 pm
  • Rob12 wrote:So the Marlins MLB.com beat writer (Frisaro is his name, look him up on Twitter) and Jerry Crasnick is reporting that the M's are making a big push for Ozuna. But Frisaro says the deal will be bigger than that. That leads me to at least wonder if Jose Fernandez is a part of the talks. For as insanely talented as he is, I guess he has some big issues with his attitude.

    Ozuna and Fernandez to Seattle? That would be insane. The package heading out would be huge. Probably something to the effect of Paxton, Walker, Peterson, Alex Jackson? It would be A LOT.

    Gonna be interesting to say the least.


    The Mariners wouldnt offer all of that up. Z left bro. Fernandez is talented, but has already had Tommy John surgery. If the rumors of his attitude are true then that combined with surgery significantly lowers his value. Especially since neither Paxton or Walker have had ligaments replaced.


    But, if they want to throw Dee Gordon into the mix then I am all ears.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:54 am
  • CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
    Rob12 wrote:So the Marlins MLB.com beat writer (Frisaro is his name, look him up on Twitter) and Jerry Crasnick is reporting that the M's are making a big push for Ozuna. But Frisaro says the deal will be bigger than that. That leads me to at least wonder if Jose Fernandez is a part of the talks. For as insanely talented as he is, I guess he has some big issues with his attitude.

    Ozuna and Fernandez to Seattle? That would be insane. The package heading out would be huge. Probably something to the effect of Paxton, Walker, Peterson, Alex Jackson? It would be A LOT.

    Gonna be interesting to say the least.


    The Mariners wouldnt offer all of that up. Z left bro. Fernandez is talented, but has already had Tommy John surgery. If the rumors of his attitude are true then that combined with surgery significantly lowers his value. Especially since neither Paxton or Walker have had ligaments replaced.


    But, if they want to throw Dee Gordon into the mix then I am all ears.


    I'd be all for Dee Gordon.

    That package I mentioned isn't much at all.

    Walker is a young pitcher who has shown brilliant flashes. He was unhittable at times last season. He has a bad habit of leaving his fastball up.

    Paxton is made of glass. He's 27, so it's not like he's a young prospect. He is hurt constantly, and can't really be counted on. His spot in the rotation is not a given.

    Peterson? He struggled mightily last season. That's troublesome for a college drafted bat that was largely considered to be the best pure hitter in his class.

    Jackson is completely unproven and insanely young. He couldn't hack it in A ball, so he had to be sent to short season where he was decent, but not really good.

    We tend to overvalue our prospects. But if the Marlins called tomorrow and offered me Ozuna and Fernandez for Walker, Paxton, Peterson, and Jackson, I would do it in a heartbeat. A possible rotation of Felix/Fernandez/Iwakuma (assuming they extend him) would be very nice. And you're giving up a potential star in Walker and three unproven prospects for a very good young outfielder and a bonafide ace who has some baggage. It's a high risk/high reward move.

    Despite the injury and reported "attitude" issue, Fernandez demands a huge package in return.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:16 am
  • Walker is off the table IMHO, unless you get Trout or Stanton in return and their respective teams would never make that trade.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:55 am
  • Rob12 wrote:
    CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
    Rob12 wrote:So the Marlins MLB.com beat writer (Frisaro is his name, look him up on Twitter) and Jerry Crasnick is reporting that the M's are making a big push for Ozuna. But Frisaro says the deal will be bigger than that. That leads me to at least wonder if Jose Fernandez is a part of the talks. For as insanely talented as he is, I guess he has some big issues with his attitude.

    Ozuna and Fernandez to Seattle? That would be insane. The package heading out would be huge. Probably something to the effect of Paxton, Walker, Peterson, Alex Jackson? It would be A LOT.

    Gonna be interesting to say the least.


    The Mariners wouldnt offer all of that up. Z left bro. Fernandez is talented, but has already had Tommy John surgery. If the rumors of his attitude are true then that combined with surgery significantly lowers his value. Especially since neither Paxton or Walker have had ligaments replaced.


    But, if they want to throw Dee Gordon into the mix then I am all ears.


    I'd be all for Dee Gordon.

    That package I mentioned isn't much at all.

    Walker is a young pitcher who has shown brilliant flashes. He was unhittable at times last season. He has a bad habit of leaving his fastball up.

    Paxton is made of glass. He's 27, so it's not like he's a young prospect. He is hurt constantly, and can't really be counted on. His spot in the rotation is not a given.

    Peterson? He struggled mightily last season. That's troublesome for a college drafted bat that was largely considered to be the best pure hitter in his class.

    Jackson is completely unproven and insanely young. He couldn't hack it in A ball, so he had to be sent to short season where he was decent, but not really good.

    We tend to overvalue our prospects. But if the Marlins called tomorrow and offered me Ozuna and Fernandez for Walker, Paxton, Peterson, and Jackson, I would do it in a heartbeat. A possible rotation of Felix/Fernandez/Iwakuma (assuming they extend him) would be very nice. And you're giving up a potential star in Walker and three unproven prospects for a very good young outfielder and a bonafide ace who has some baggage. It's a high risk/high reward move.

    Despite the injury and reported "attitude" issue, Fernandez demands a huge package in return.


    If I am overvaluing the prospects then you are undervaluing them. They are somewhere in between our to evaluations which makes them to valuable, at this time, to offer all of them in a trade.

    In your scenarios we have three very good pitchers. Only problem is that one was injured a good portion of last season and is declining. The other missed a significant amount of time with Tommy John surgery and recovery, and then where do we get the other two fifths of the rotation since the majority of the available payroll was just eaten up by your move?

    We would still have a defensive hole in the outfield as well with Smith and DTFT in a platoon.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:46 pm
  • Rob12 wrote:
    CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
    Rob12 wrote:So the Marlins MLB.com beat writer (Frisaro is his name, look him up on Twitter) and Jerry Crasnick is reporting that the M's are making a big push for Ozuna. But Frisaro says the deal will be bigger than that. That leads me to at least wonder if Jose Fernandez is a part of the talks. For as insanely talented as he is, I guess he has some big issues with his attitude.

    Ozuna and Fernandez to Seattle? That would be insane. The package heading out would be huge. Probably something to the effect of Paxton, Walker, Peterson, Alex Jackson? It would be A LOT.

    Gonna be interesting to say the least.


    The Mariners wouldnt offer all of that up. Z left bro. Fernandez is talented, but has already had Tommy John surgery. If the rumors of his attitude are true then that combined with surgery significantly lowers his value. Especially since neither Paxton or Walker have had ligaments replaced.


    But, if they want to throw Dee Gordon into the mix then I am all ears.


    I'd be all for Dee Gordon.

    That package I mentioned isn't much at all.

    Walker is a young pitcher who has shown brilliant flashes. He was unhittable at times last season. He has a bad habit of leaving his fastball up.

    Paxton is made of glass. He's 27, so it's not like he's a young prospect. He is hurt constantly, and can't really be counted on. His spot in the rotation is not a given.

    Peterson? He struggled mightily last season. That's troublesome for a college drafted bat that was largely considered to be the best pure hitter in his class.

    Jackson is completely unproven and insanely young. He couldn't hack it in A ball, so he had to be sent to short season where he was decent, but not really good.

    We tend to overvalue our prospects. But if the Marlins called tomorrow and offered me Ozuna and Fernandez for Walker, Paxton, Peterson, and Jackson, I would do it in a heartbeat. A possible rotation of Felix/Fernandez/Iwakuma (assuming they extend him) would be very nice. And you're giving up a potential star in Walker and three unproven prospects for a very good young outfielder and a bonafide ace who has some baggage. It's a high risk/high reward move.

    Despite the injury and reported "attitude" issue, Fernandez demands a huge package in return.


    That trade package is absolutely horrible from a M's perspective. Trading Walker, Peterson, and Jackson? Seriously. That's coming close to the Adam Jones fiasco. If Dipoto does that, then I hope he's not the GM much longer.
    hawkfan68
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:45 am
  • CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
    Rob12 wrote:
    CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
    Rob12 wrote:So the Marlins MLB.com beat writer (Frisaro is his name, look him up on Twitter) and Jerry Crasnick is reporting that the M's are making a big push for Ozuna. But Frisaro says the deal will be bigger than that. That leads me to at least wonder if Jose Fernandez is a part of the talks. For as insanely talented as he is, I guess he has some big issues with his attitude.

    Ozuna and Fernandez to Seattle? That would be insane. The package heading out would be huge. Probably something to the effect of Paxton, Walker, Peterson, Alex Jackson? It would be A LOT.

    Gonna be interesting to say the least.


    The Mariners wouldnt offer all of that up. Z left bro. Fernandez is talented, but has already had Tommy John surgery. If the rumors of his attitude are true then that combined with surgery significantly lowers his value. Especially since neither Paxton or Walker have had ligaments replaced.


    But, if they want to throw Dee Gordon into the mix then I am all ears.


    I'd be all for Dee Gordon.

    That package I mentioned isn't much at all.

    Walker is a young pitcher who has shown brilliant flashes. He was unhittable at times last season. He has a bad habit of leaving his fastball up.

    Paxton is made of glass. He's 27, so it's not like he's a young prospect. He is hurt constantly, and can't really be counted on. His spot in the rotation is not a given.

    Peterson? He struggled mightily last season. That's troublesome for a college drafted bat that was largely considered to be the best pure hitter in his class.

    Jackson is completely unproven and insanely young. He couldn't hack it in A ball, so he had to be sent to short season where he was decent, but not really good.

    We tend to overvalue our prospects. But if the Marlins called tomorrow and offered me Ozuna and Fernandez for Walker, Paxton, Peterson, and Jackson, I would do it in a heartbeat. A possible rotation of Felix/Fernandez/Iwakuma (assuming they extend him) would be very nice. And you're giving up a potential star in Walker and three unproven prospects for a very good young outfielder and a bonafide ace who has some baggage. It's a high risk/high reward move.

    Despite the injury and reported "attitude" issue, Fernandez demands a huge package in return.


    If I am overvaluing the prospects then you are undervaluing them. They are somewhere in between our to evaluations which makes them to valuable, at this time, to offer all of them in a trade.

    In your scenarios we have three very good pitchers. Only problem is that one was injured a good portion of last season and is declining. The other missed a significant amount of time with Tommy John surgery and recovery, and then where do we get the other two fifths of the rotation since the majority of the available payroll was just eaten up by your move?

    We would still have a defensive hole in the outfield as well with Smith and DTFT in a platoon.


    Alright, dude. The Mariners haven't produced an above average outfielder in 20 years. Jose Cruz, Jr. was close, but he never quite got there.

    Name me a Mariners POSITIONAL prospect other than Kyle Seager that has panned out? Just one. And I'm not talking replacement level players here. You heavily overvalue our prospects when you look at the fact that the player development department has been absolutely atrocious over the past 20 seasons.

    DJ Peterson took a huge step back last season. He was completely and helplessly overmatched in Tacoma.

    Mike Zunino? Ruined by the Jack Z regime.

    Alex Jackson is only 19, but he had to be sent to short season Everett to actually compete. He's still got a lot of time, and a boatload of talent, but the odds of him being an above average major leaguer is small. It's just the nature of the beast.

    Paxton can't stay healthy. He's 27.

    Seattle has a bottom of the barrel minor league system, and that is earned by the fact that they can't produce Big League talent. Felix and Seager are the exceptions to the rule, and hundreds of other players have failed. It's hard to do anything but undervalue our prospects when you look at the results.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:53 am
  • hawkfan68 wrote:
    Rob12 wrote:
    CurryStopstheRuns wrote:
    Rob12 wrote:So the Marlins MLB.com beat writer (Frisaro is his name, look him up on Twitter) and Jerry Crasnick is reporting that the M's are making a big push for Ozuna. But Frisaro says the deal will be bigger than that. That leads me to at least wonder if Jose Fernandez is a part of the talks. For as insanely talented as he is, I guess he has some big issues with his attitude.

    Ozuna and Fernandez to Seattle? That would be insane. The package heading out would be huge. Probably something to the effect of Paxton, Walker, Peterson, Alex Jackson? It would be A LOT.

    Gonna be interesting to say the least.


    The Mariners wouldnt offer all of that up. Z left bro. Fernandez is talented, but has already had Tommy John surgery. If the rumors of his attitude are true then that combined with surgery significantly lowers his value. Especially since neither Paxton or Walker have had ligaments replaced.


    But, if they want to throw Dee Gordon into the mix then I am all ears.


    I'd be all for Dee Gordon.

    That package I mentioned isn't much at all.

    Walker is a young pitcher who has shown brilliant flashes. He was unhittable at times last season. He has a bad habit of leaving his fastball up.

    Paxton is made of glass. He's 27, so it's not like he's a young prospect. He is hurt constantly, and can't really be counted on. His spot in the rotation is not a given.

    Peterson? He struggled mightily last season. That's troublesome for a college drafted bat that was largely considered to be the best pure hitter in his class.

    Jackson is completely unproven and insanely young. He couldn't hack it in A ball, so he had to be sent to short season where he was decent, but not really good.

    We tend to overvalue our prospects. But if the Marlins called tomorrow and offered me Ozuna and Fernandez for Walker, Paxton, Peterson, and Jackson, I would do it in a heartbeat. A possible rotation of Felix/Fernandez/Iwakuma (assuming they extend him) would be very nice. And you're giving up a potential star in Walker and three unproven prospects for a very good young outfielder and a bonafide ace who has some baggage. It's a high risk/high reward move.

    Despite the injury and reported "attitude" issue, Fernandez demands a huge package in return.


    That trade package is absolutely horrible from a M's perspective. Trading Walker, Peterson, and Jackson? Seriously. That's coming close to the Adam Jones fiasco. If Dipoto does that, then I hope he's not the GM much longer.


    What makes you think they will succeed in this organization? DJ Peterson is 23, and hit .223 and had a .632 OPS between two stops last season. He has looked overmatched in the Arizona Fall League. He can't play defense. His calling was supposed to be his power, yet he hit seven home runs last season.

    Alex Jackson? Love the potential, but the results have been poor. He hit .157 in Clinton with a .453 OPS. He was shut down and had to wait for the short season to start, and in Everett he hit .239.

    Adam Jones actually produced some Minor League results.

    Another classic case of M's fans overvaluing prospects. If you guys are good with waiting for the prospects to pan out, be my guest. But the window for this current team to make some noise is closing fast, Felix, Cano, Cruz, and Seager are all aging. When you can ship off unproven prospects for bonafide Major League talent, you do it. I guess the past 20+ years has taught us very little.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:53 am
  • I would say Adam Jones and Seager, but you tried to nix that right out of the gate, but I won't let you tie my hands behind my back and ask me to arm wrestle.

    And, your idea of trading prospects for "bonafide MLB talent," is what sent Adam Jones away.


    BTW, Asdrubel Cabrera, Shin Soo Choo, and Carlos Guillen. I will even throw in Jason Varitek. All players traded away for, "bonafide MLB talent." Although Guillen was already up and playing before he was sent packing.
    CurryStopstheRuns
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:47 am
  • The team as it is currently assembled has zero chance. There is one, and only one way to build a successful MLB franchise. It HAS to start with prospects. Name any prolonged playoff run you can think of, any. Pick one. Any of them. Yankees, Braves, Indians, Giants, Cardinals, Red Sox, heck, even the M's most successful years. They all started the same way. If you trade our prospects, you are only adding years to a rebuilding process that is already going to take several years to possibly harvest any fruit. If we do this right, we can have a decent major league product in 3-4 years, but in order for that to happen, we need to hit on some trades and prospects. There is one, and only one way to build a MLB franchise. It has to be from the ground up, otherwise you wind up with an expensive and old team without any prospects of getting better any time soon. And if you start that process of putting your resources into the MLB team, you'd better be damn well sure that you've got a contending team, otherwise you're going to be old, expensive, and bad. This is the worst case scenario for any franchise. If you're old, expensive and bad and don't have a bunch of talent on the horizon, it will take a decade to dig yourself out.
    Tical21
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:00 am
  • Tical21 wrote:The team as it is currently assembled has zero chance. There is one, and only one way to build a successful MLB franchise. It HAS to start with prospects. Name any prolonged playoff run you can think of, any. Pick one. Any of them. Yankees, Braves, Indians, Giants, Cardinals, Red Sox, heck, even the M's most successful years. They all started the same way. If you trade our prospects, you are only adding years to a rebuilding process that is already going to take several years to possibly harvest any fruit. If we do this right, we can have a decent major league product in 3-4 years, but in order for that to happen, we need to hit on some trades and prospects. There is one, and only one way to build a MLB franchise. It has to be from the ground up, otherwise you wind up with an expensive and old team without any prospects of getting better any time soon. And if you start that process of putting your resources into the MLB team, you'd better be damn well sure that you've got a contending team, otherwise you're going to be old, expensive, and bad. This is the worst case scenario for any franchise. If you're old, expensive and bad and don't have a bunch of talent on the horizon, it will take a decade to dig yourself out.


    Basically right on the money. It's tough to avoid overvaluing your own prospects, given that the only way to build consistent success in MLB is a successful farm system. The gap between college and high school baseball and MLB is simply too large to play players right after they're drafted (compare to NFL, for instance), and without a successful and talent-rich farm system, you're basically stuck paying older, expensive players towards the end of their careers.

    There are some rare exceptions where younger stars hit free agency and can justify huge amounts of money (Heyward, for instance, is only 26 or so, and can reasonably be expected to be valuable for 10 more years barring injury), but it just doesn't happen that often. Similarly, it can be tough to acquire younger players in trade without selling off too many prospects to recover.

    It's always advisable to deal from a position of strength - only trade away players at positions where you have other promising players to fill the void. This was part of the problem with ditching Castillo so quickly - not that we could have known he would blow up the way he did, but because we had nobody to replace him with, and it kept 'forcing' the team to go with Zunino.

    The one point where I disagree with you, Tical, is that the current team has zero chance of contending. I would argue that there's enough talent on the M's major league roster that they could make their way into the postseason this year, and we've seen 88 win teams win it all before (I believe the Cardinals a few years ago). The problem is that there is currently no depth and no sustainability, and the roster is deeply flawed as Z constructed it. As such, you're left relying a lot on people having good years and no injuries - there's simply no room to pick up the slack if a player like Cano is struggling.

    There's also very little help imminently on its way, given that players like Peterson and Jackson are struggling. The M's need to be looking primarily at either reloading their farm system or acquiring players in their mid 20s who will be Mariners for many years and can contribute at the Major League level for many years - if we load up on one- and two-year players, we may improve our odds of contention for one year, at the cost of many more years of losing teams.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:00 pm
  • Either they need a new scouting department having missed on so many prospects while drafting high, or re tool their coaching ranks in the farm system to guys that can develop players. The rush jobs they have done in the past only damage players confidence also.

    Open the check book put a team on the field of vets that can compete, 5 years down the road you start bring up these guys ready to play. Or do what the Royals did suck for a decade or so then make a run with cheap rosters for a few years.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:08 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:The team as it is currently assembled has zero chance. There is one, and only one way to build a successful MLB franchise. It HAS to start with prospects. Name any prolonged playoff run you can think of, any. Pick one. Any of them. Yankees, Braves, Indians, Giants, Cardinals, Red Sox, heck, even the M's most successful years. They all started the same way. If you trade our prospects, you are only adding years to a rebuilding process that is already going to take several years to possibly harvest any fruit. If we do this right, we can have a decent major league product in 3-4 years, but in order for that to happen, we need to hit on some trades and prospects. There is one, and only one way to build a MLB franchise. It has to be from the ground up, otherwise you wind up with an expensive and old team without any prospects of getting better any time soon. And if you start that process of putting your resources into the MLB team, you'd better be damn well sure that you've got a contending team, otherwise you're going to be old, expensive, and bad. This is the worst case scenario for any franchise. If you're old, expensive and bad and don't have a bunch of talent on the horizon, it will take a decade to dig yourself out.

    I agree with this.One franchise you can use thats doing what you talked about is the Cubs.Ground up is the key
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:03 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:Either they need a new scouting department having missed on so many prospects while drafting high, or re tool their coaching ranks in the farm system to guys that can develop players. The rush jobs they have done in the past only damage players confidence also.

    Open the check book put a team on the field of vets that can compete, 5 years down the road you start bring up these guys ready to play. Or do what the Royals did suck for a decade or so then make a run with cheap rosters for a few years.


    The Mariners have actually made significant changes to their coaching structure in the farm system, and it has been implied repeatedly by Dipoto that he views player development as an enormous deficiency of the franchise as a whole. I'm inclined to agree that this is a major problem, and am hopeful that in the long run it will make a significant difference.
    jkitsune
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:04 am
  • CurryStopstheRuns wrote:I would say Adam Jones and Seager, but you tried to nix that right out of the gate, but I won't let you tie my hands behind my back and ask me to arm wrestle.

    And, your idea of trading prospects for "bonafide MLB talent," is what sent Adam Jones away.


    BTW, Asdrubel Cabrera, Shin Soo Choo, and Carlos Guillen. I will even throw in Jason Varitek. All players traded away for, "bonafide MLB talent." Although Guillen was already up and playing before he was sent packing.


    Fair enough, bro. Fair enough.

    My point was over the past 10 years, Seager is really the only offensive prospect that this team has developed.

    The Adam Jones set us back quite a while.

    I'm hoping that some of these minor leaguers can find more success with a new regime in place. Dipoto cleaned house throughout the entire organization, so my hope is that we see some results.
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:11 am
  • Tical21 wrote:The team as it is currently assembled has zero chance. There is one, and only one way to build a successful MLB franchise. It HAS to start with prospects. Name any prolonged playoff run you can think of, any. Pick one. Any of them. Yankees, Braves, Indians, Giants, Cardinals, Red Sox, heck, even the M's most successful years. They all started the same way. If you trade our prospects, you are only adding years to a rebuilding process that is already going to take several years to possibly harvest any fruit. If we do this right, we can have a decent major league product in 3-4 years, but in order for that to happen, we need to hit on some trades and prospects. There is one, and only one way to build a MLB franchise. It has to be from the ground up, otherwise you wind up with an expensive and old team without any prospects of getting better any time soon. And if you start that process of putting your resources into the MLB team, you'd better be damn well sure that you've got a contending team, otherwise you're going to be old, expensive, and bad. This is the worst case scenario for any franchise. If you're old, expensive and bad and don't have a bunch of talent on the horizon, it will take a decade to dig yourself out.


    In three or four years:

    Felix will be 34.
    Cruz will be nearing 40.
    Cano will be 36 or 37.
    Seager will be 31.

    It's not a one-size fits all deal (which your post bares out). You have to draft well and develop well. I'd put that as the most crucial. But beyond that, and not far behind is being shrewd in free agency and trades. Being able to spot international talent is a must as well.

    I don't want us to deal all of our prospects. But the track record over the past 15 years has been bad. Really, really bad. I want to give the Dipoto regime a shot to undue the damage done during the Z years. But you have to be damn good. It's tough banking on prospects when you look at the fact that the vast majority of them never even sniff the Show. Adding to that is the aforementioned track record of poor drafting/development. I hope guys like Mike Zunino aren't lost causes, because that would just be a shame.

    Good post, Tical. I'm not disagreeing at all with your overall premise. I'm just sour of the fact that this team hasn't been relevant for nearly 15 years now.
    Rob12
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Re: Mariners OFF-season thread
Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:04 pm
  • Rob12 wrote:
    In three or four years:

    Felix will be 34.
    Cruz will be nearing 40.
    Cano will be 36 or 37.
    Seager will be 31.

    It's not a one-size fits all deal (which your post bares out). You have to draft well and develop well. I'd put that as the most crucial. But beyond that, and not far behind is being shrewd in free agency and trades. Being able to spot international talent is a must as well.

    I don't want us to deal all of our prospects. But the track record over the past 15 years has been bad. Really, really bad. I want to give the Dipoto regime a shot to undue the damage done during the Z years. But you have to be damn good. It's tough banking on prospects when you look at the fact that the vast majority of them never even sniff the Show. Adding to that is the aforementioned track record of poor drafting/development. I hope guys like Mike Zunino aren't lost causes, because that would just be a shame.

    Good post, Tical. I'm not disagreeing at all with your overall premise. I'm just sour of the fact that this team hasn't been relevant for nearly 15 years now.


    I think this is the first year, in a long time, that I've decided I refuse to be 'excited' about the Mariners until they show it. By which, I mean that I'm not going to expect a successful season before the year starts (I will always be 'excited' about the Mariners potentially turning it around). Over the last 12 years, there really hasn't ever been a year where the M's seemed poised to be a genuinely good club until 2015 - and obviously, that didn't work out, despite my best reassurances to everyone that THIS TIME WOULD BE DIFFERENT!

    So, now, I'm going to just take a 'wait and see' approach every year, while still enjoying following the team and rooting for them. 13 years of irrelevance will do that to you.

    All of this is just to say that it's OK to be sour on the Mariners and their chances, and to feel nihilistic about the franchise. You've earned it if you've followed the team since the early '90s (or even the last 15 years). Provided the Mariners don't leave town (I see no reason to think they're at risk of doing so), it will just make the winning all the sweeter when it finally does happen.
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