LeBron or Jordan?

getnasty

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
6,462
Reaction score
659
I expect to be pretty one sided because of the championships but damn LeBron has done a lot despite not always having a ton of help. I feel like I was to young to fully appreciate MJ. Who you got?
 

2_0_6

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
3,540
Reaction score
0
Location
South Seattle
Jordan was a beast, but the two eras are completely different.

If you put Lebron back in Jordan's era with his speed, size and athleticism, nobody would have been able to stop him.

If Im building a team and could choose from both of these guys in their prime, Lebron gets my vote. He is a freak athlete.
 

Sgt. Largent

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
25,560
Reaction score
7,610
I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.
 

Uncle Si

Active member
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
20,596
Reaction score
3
Sgt. Largent":2qy7nd63 said:
I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.

Not saying this sways the argument either way, but the era's of basketball should be included here. the physical era of the 80s and 90s, with 7 foot plus big men patrolling the paint, have been replaced by power forwards running the diagonals and point guards turning into shooting guards. Much of this was because of Lebron (he's not the only big man doing this) and has helped him excel. But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron. It was a league of bruisers and brutes, post ups and pick and rolls. Jordan played beyond the arc, in the paint and above the rim. Once he beat the Pistons, that era of basketball was over. Lebron would certainly be a force in the Jordan-era, but he's not really had to deal with a set up (including rules) that challenge him.

I never really see anyone post the opposite: how would Jordan do in this era?

Lebron has really changed the way I thought of him the last 2-3 years. He's become "that guy" instead of part of a group of guys. I still think Jordan walks into this iteration of the NBA and dominates offensively, much in the way Kobe was, and his defensive presence makes him an easy MVP candidate. I can't say the same about Lebron in the 90s.

I guess they are 1a and 1b. But I think time has forgot what Jordan really was, night in and night out, and how challenged he was by the league. I think i'd take that over Lebron, but its not automatic anymore.
 

2_0_6

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
3,540
Reaction score
0
Location
South Seattle
Lebron is not only a scorer but also distributes the ball like a PG, where Jordan was mainly a pure shooter.

J1X8tNh
 

Crizilla

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
4,307
Reaction score
623
Location
Kirkland
Lebron is a more dominant player but who would I rather have on my team? I'll take Jordan. I'd take Kobe, Duncan, and a few others over LeBron.
 

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,956
Reaction score
1,594
Uncle Si":1cdmd605 said:
Sgt. Largent":1cdmd605 said:
I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.

Not saying this sways the argument either way, but the era's of basketball should be included here. the physical era of the 80s and 90s, with 7 foot plus big men patrolling the paint, have been replaced by power forwards running the diagonals and point guards turning into shooting guards. Much of this was because of Lebron (he's not the only big man doing this) and has helped him excel. But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron. It was a league of bruisers and brutes, post ups and pick and rolls. Jordan played beyond the arc, in the paint and above the rim. Once he beat the Pistons, that era of basketball was over. Lebron would certainly be a force in the Jordan-era, but he's not really had to deal with a set up (including rules) that challenge him.

I never really see anyone post the opposite: how would Jordan do in this era?

Lebron has really changed the way I thought of him the last 2-3 years. He's become "that guy" instead of part of a group of guys. I still think Jordan walks into this iteration of the NBA and dominates offensively, much in the way Kobe was, and his defensive presence makes him an easy MVP candidate. I can't say the same about Lebron in the 90s.

I guess they are 1a and 1b. But I think time has forgot what Jordan really was, night in and night out, and how challenged he was by the league. I think i'd take that over Lebron, but its not automatic anymore.

Have watched both but no need to waste my time..The era then is a lot different and I know LJ would
not do what you see today back then period.
Jordan on other hand under todays easy rules,spacing,no defense?The tongue would be out all game
his team would win championships as he demands defense and exexcution hence the bold above.
 

Jeremy517

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
305
Reaction score
0
Uncle Si":2x79x4gz said:
But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron.

That isn't really true at all. The game is completely different than when Jordan played.

Jordan shot relatively few threes. For his career, he averaged fewer than two per game, even if we throw out the poor seasons with the Wizards. 265 guys shot more threes this year per game than Jordan's career average with the Bulls, and 132 players shot more threes per game this year than Jordan's highest season. 150 guys made threes at a higher percentage than Jordan.

The road to the current state of the NBA, in my opinion, was started by Gregg Popovich. He was the one that showed the league how valuable corner threes are. Corner threes are almost two feet closer than other threes, yet worth the same amount of points. Most coaches eventually realized that long twos are the worst shot in basketball. Why take an 18-20 foot jumper, when you can step back a few feet and get 50% more points for a make? This led to shot charts like this being the norm:

UMeQqlY

That is way different than the Jordan-era of the NBA. That isn't to say that Jordan couldn't play in the current era; obviously he could. However, the league now isn't the one that Jordan created.
 

2_0_6

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
3,540
Reaction score
0
Location
South Seattle
I think the main factor between the two time periods is the athletes themselves. Jordan never faced a 6'9" 260lb guy that had a sweet jumper, could dunk over anyone, had the abilities to play PG, and the stamina of a racehorse.

Compare the NFL of today to the NFL of the 80's, and I would bet that most good teams today would wipe the floors with the good teams from back then. Guys are just bigger, stronger, faster and train year round as opposed to a portion of a year.
 

Sgt. Largent

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
25,560
Reaction score
7,610
Uncle Si":jbwtosx1 said:
Sgt. Largent":jbwtosx1 said:
I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.

Not saying this sways the argument either way, but the era's of basketball should be included here. the physical era of the 80s and 90s, with 7 foot plus big men patrolling the paint, have been replaced by power forwards running the diagonals and point guards turning into shooting guards. Much of this was because of Lebron (he's not the only big man doing this) and has helped him excel. But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron. It was a league of bruisers and brutes, post ups and pick and rolls. Jordan played beyond the arc, in the paint and above the rim. Once he beat the Pistons, that era of basketball was over. Lebron would certainly be a force in the Jordan-era, but he's not really had to deal with a set up (including rules) that challenge him.

I never really see anyone post the opposite: how would Jordan do in this era?

Lebron has really changed the way I thought of him the last 2-3 years. He's become "that guy" instead of part of a group of guys. I still think Jordan walks into this iteration of the NBA and dominates offensively, much in the way Kobe was, and his defensive presence makes him an easy MVP candidate. I can't say the same about Lebron in the 90s.

I guess they are 1a and 1b. But I think time has forgot what Jordan really was, night in and night out, and how challenged he was by the league. I think i'd take that over Lebron, but its not automatic anymore.

Couple good points.

Jordan definitely played in a more physical time of the league, but make no mistake he as well as other big stars got a LOT of calls, just as Lebron and the stars of today do.

I'd also say that Lebron is one of the most physically dominant players in the game, so I have no doubt he'd do just fine playing in Jordan's time of having to work harder and be tougher/more physical. Dude could play TE in the NFL if he wanted to, he's such a physical freak.

IMO you nailed the more fair comparison Si, to me it's always been Kobe vs Jordan, same style and physical build. IMO there is no comparison for Lebron for style and physical makeup.
 

JGfromtheNW

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
2,345
Reaction score
119
Location
On-Track
I've been beating the LeBron drum for almost 10 years. Nobody in NBA history has been able to move mass the way LeBron does, plus he's got the skills and coordination to match just about any player in the league. I have no doubt in my mind that LeBron would have had a very successful career playing in a more physical era.

I could give a damn about Finals wins. It's not LeBron's fault he's playing against much better opponents and coaches in an era that has seen much better competition throughout the league. Finals wins, like other sports, are a reflection of the team's ability, not one GOAT level player.

LeBron's stats will speak for themselves when it's all said and done.
 

Uncle Si

Active member
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
20,596
Reaction score
3
Jeremy517":3q233nar said:
Uncle Si":3q233nar said:
But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron.

That isn't really true at all. The game is completely different than when Jordan played.

Jordan shot relatively few threes. For his career, he averaged fewer than two per game, even if we throw out the poor seasons with the Wizards. 265 guys shot more threes this year per game than Jordan's career average with the Bulls, and 132 players shot more threes per game this year than Jordan's highest season. 150 guys made threes at a higher percentage than Jordan.

The road to the current state of the NBA, in my opinion, was started by Gregg Popovich. He was the one that showed the league how valuable corner threes are. Corner threes are almost two feet closer than other threes, yet worth the same amount of points. Most coaches eventually realized that long twos are the worst shot in basketball. Why take an 18-20 foot jumper, when you can step back a few feet and get 50% more points for a make? This led to shot charts like this being the norm:

UMeQqlY

That is way different than the Jordan-era of the NBA. That isn't to say that Jordan couldn't play in the current era; obviously he could. However, the league now isn't the one that Jordan created.


Think maybe i didn't state that correctly. But excellent point on Pop

Jordan dismantled the physical, post up and pick and roll play of the 80s and 90s, allowing for the free form and fast paced style you see today.

It wasn't that Jordan played in an era like today, but he broke down a league that was focused on team D and limited scoring. He shifted the landscape, even if he never got to walk around in the yard.
 

Uncle Si

Active member
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
20,596
Reaction score
3
Sgt. Largent":3bolkusb said:
Uncle Si":3bolkusb said:
Sgt. Largent":3bolkusb said:
I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.

Not saying this sways the argument either way, but the era's of basketball should be included here. the physical era of the 80s and 90s, with 7 foot plus big men patrolling the paint, have been replaced by power forwards running the diagonals and point guards turning into shooting guards. Much of this was because of Lebron (he's not the only big man doing this) and has helped him excel. But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron. It was a league of bruisers and brutes, post ups and pick and rolls. Jordan played beyond the arc, in the paint and above the rim. Once he beat the Pistons, that era of basketball was over. Lebron would certainly be a force in the Jordan-era, but he's not really had to deal with a set up (including rules) that challenge him.

I never really see anyone post the opposite: how would Jordan do in this era?

Lebron has really changed the way I thought of him the last 2-3 years. He's become "that guy" instead of part of a group of guys. I still think Jordan walks into this iteration of the NBA and dominates offensively, much in the way Kobe was, and his defensive presence makes him an easy MVP candidate. I can't say the same about Lebron in the 90s.

I guess they are 1a and 1b. But I think time has forgot what Jordan really was, night in and night out, and how challenged he was by the league. I think i'd take that over Lebron, but its not automatic anymore.

Couple good points.

Jordan definitely played in a more physical time of the league, but make no mistake he as well as other big stars got a LOT of calls, just as Lebron and the stars of today do.

I'd also say that Lebron is one of the most physically dominant players in the game, so I have no doubt he'd do just fine playing in Jordan's time of having to work harder and be tougher/more physical. Dude could play TE in the NFL if he wanted to, he's such a physical freak.

IMO you nailed the more fair comparison Si, to me it's always been Kobe vs Jordan, same style and physical build. IMO there is no comparison for Lebron for style and physical makeup.

Lebron's physical dominance is unquestioned. But again, I don't think he dominates Jordan era the way he does now.

However.. that doesnt mean he's not playing at Jordan's level either.

Its fun how this conversation has changed. Lebron has done an excellent job since his return to Cleveland re-forming the narrative around his competitiveness.
 

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,956
Reaction score
1,594
2_0_6":3f2fje6b said:
I think the main factor between the two time periods is the athletes themselves. Jordan never faced a 6'9" 260lb guy that had a sweet jumper, could dunk over anyone, had the abilities to play PG, and the stamina of a racehorse.

Compare the NFL of today to the NFL of the 80's, and I would bet that most good teams today would wipe the floors with the good teams from back then. Guys are just bigger, stronger, faster and train year round as opposed to a portion of a year.

The famous crutch words come out...The great players of all sports in the 60,70,80-90's ect would
all still be great today with that same conditioning there is no doubt in my mind.
Some might even be greater..Wilt Chamberlain comes to mind with today's technology(My god)

The flip side if we take Lebron to the 80's-90's with the extreme hard play rules and only a portion
of training instead of year round.I don't see him being much better than Karl Malone/James Worthy
which they are all about the same size.

I'm not a Lebron hater and yeah he is the best today.The media has been trying to replace
Jordan since he left but the thing is nobody will.
 

Hawk-Lock

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
5,301
Reaction score
556
Two completely different players. MJ's best comparison was Kobe. They were quite similar, but with Jordan being much better. LeBron is the more complete player and physically dominant players. I'd probably take LeBron but I dind't watch Jordan until his late years. LeBron gets a lot of hate, but the guy could go down as the greatest player to play in the NBA.
 

hawknation2018

New member
Joined
Jan 1, 2018
Messages
3,082
Reaction score
0
I'm willing to admit that Lebron is the 2nd best player of all time. But no way is he better than Jordan, who had an unparalleled killer instinct and will to win.
 

SanDiego49er

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
571
Reaction score
1
Man this thing is so over analyzed but I will take a bite here.

First of all Lebron gets massively blamed UNFAIRLY for some of those losses. In no particular order these are just some of the Finals losses I believe Lebron gets terribly unfair blame for. It's just absurd to blame him for these IMO. These are not in order. Just I think he takes unfair blame for these. I have listed the ones I think he is unfairly blamed for.

1) 1st Finals loss - A young Cleveland team plays the Spurs who were like 10 deep at least. Cleveland had what Lebron and Verajao? How was he going to beat a 10 deep team with that? I'm calling it right now. NOT HIS FAULT.

2) 2nd Finals loss - Kevin Love an Kyrie Irving both get hurt. He enters the Finals with 1 of the Big 3. Lebron plays out of his mind and puts up insane #'s. But he falls short and they lose. What do you want the guy to do here and how is that loss his fault? I'm calling this one too. NOT HIS FAULT.

3) 3rd Finals loss - Kevin Durant joins a 73 win team who already won the Championship. They have an unprecedented and unheard of BIG 4. It's like the starting roster for the Olympic team. Cleveland gets to the Finals and loses to them. Wow big surprise huh? NOT HIS FAULT.

I can think of at least 3 of these Finals loses that absolutely were not his fault.

Now you move on to Jordan. Yes he was great. But he was also lucky too. People forget that it was a different era and the West in those years was much weaker. It was the exact opposite. Things kind of go in cycles. But if you look at in that time period if you came out of the East you would win. Because the West was much weaker and had a bunch of fundamentally flawed teams. If you beat the Knicks and the Pacers and Pistons by the time you got to the Finals and played the West you would win.

1) 1st Championship - The played an aging Lakers team. The Lakers were great in the 80's. But this was the 90's. They were slowing down and they lost. So they beat a flawed team IMO.

3) 3rd Championship - They beat Barkley and the Phoenix Suns. Can anybody actually even list the important players on that team? No they can't. Barkley had a cast of characters that he dragged into the Finals and lost. He was a Big 1 vs. a Big 3. What do you want the guy to do? He gets unfairly blamed for that BTW too. Basketball is team game and the Bulls were far better.

5) 5th Championship - They play the Utah Jazz. Now look at this team. It's Malone and Stockton and not much supporting cast. That's a Big 1 1/2. Given that Stockton gives you absolutely nothing on defense and is even a liability. So a Big 1 1/2 vs. a Big 3. Who was going to win that? They played a flawed team who was good enough to get through the West. That's all.

6) 6th Championship. See #5 above. Same as above...^^^^^^^. See above. Rinse and repeat.

IMO they played very flawed teams. There was no dynasty coming out of the other side. The Bulls benefited from this HUGELY I think. They would win a Championship or 2. But no way 6 if they faced dynasties coming out of the other side. They didn't face the 80's Lakers. That would have been a different story. The Bulls would win some but I would guess less than the total they got. There was a vacuum of awesome teams coming out of the West in their time period and their run. That's not really the Bulls fault. But they benefited from it in an enormous way. Don't doubt that.

I look at it like this. If they played 1 on 1 I think Lebron would win. He is 6'8" 250 lbs. and as fast and quick as anybody to ever to play the game. Plus he is strong and powerful and can jump out of the gym. Now Jordan was 6'6" 216 lbs. His speed, quickness, stop, start and cutting ability would give Lebron trouble and his shooting ability is awesome. But I think Lebron's strength, power, size, bulk and long arms would give Jordan big problems. I honestly think Lebron would win. Basketball is not a 1 on 1 game. But this comparison is something to consider.

Further I think there is no doubt that Lebron is the better rebounder and passer. Can anybody really even argue that? Jordan was a great scorer. They were both all world defensive players. So maybe that is even. But Lebron can play 1 - 4 positions on offense and defense at an All Star level. Can Jordan in his prime do that? No way. He mostly would play 1 - 2. Pippen was at 3.

I honestly think Lebron is probably better. He gets hugely unfairly blamed for some Finals losses which clearly were not his fault. Jordan benefited hugely from facing some very flawed teams coming out of the West in his era. He also had a Big 3 before Big 3 was in style and he had coach Phil Jackson. So he really had a lot of advantages. The media needs a narrative and a hero and all time greats because they like to write about it. But upon further examination and break down I think it's more complicated. I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great. He was and will always be considered that. It's just you have look at everything and the circumstances of who had and who he faced. You also have to look at some of the bad breaks Lebron has had which are no fault of his own. I just think you have look at the whole picture.
 

2_0_6

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
3,540
Reaction score
0
Location
South Seattle
IndyHawk":cpl5bnrf said:
2_0_6":cpl5bnrf said:
I think the main factor between the two time periods is the athletes themselves. Jordan never faced a 6'9" 260lb guy that had a sweet jumper, could dunk over anyone, had the abilities to play PG, and the stamina of a racehorse.

Compare the NFL of today to the NFL of the 80's, and I would bet that most good teams today would wipe the floors with the good teams from back then. Guys are just bigger, stronger, faster and train year round as opposed to a portion of a year.

The famous crutch words come out....


That's because its true.

Name a player from any past era that had the ball skills, size, strength, shot making ability who also gets a ton of assists per game.

GO ahead Ill wait.
 

Uncle Si

Active member
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
20,596
Reaction score
3
You're only strengthening the argument 2_0_6...

(also.. NBA players of the 80s and 90s only trained part time?)

Lebron's era is set up for him to dominate. He's done a tremendous job in doing so. The debate is whether he'd be able to transition all those "ball skills" (which is essentially him blowing by a small guard into the paint where he meets power forwards and centers who are barely his size.. then passes) into an era of 7 foot guards, 6'11 power forwards defensive players patrolling every position. It's just a different league. defense is secondary in today's NBA, so stats flatter to deceive.

It's a fun argument when perspective is kept. There are enough variables that can't be truly defined to keep it going.

But again, Lebron's play the last 3 years is what's made this a debate again. He is dominating this league for really the first time. It's great to see. I look forward to watching the Cavs get pulled apart by the Rockets or Warriors while Lebron does everything he can to keep it close
 

2_0_6

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
3,540
Reaction score
0
Location
South Seattle
Uncle Si":2d5p90gp said:
You're only strengthening the argument 2_0_6...


Maybe in your mind. :irishdrinkers:

Lebron has been dominating and taking over games for years. Numbers don't lie.
 
Top