Let's Talk Mariners

Discuss any and all sports-related topics. From the College Sports to Baseball and everything in between. RATING: PG-13
Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:59 pm
  • Hilarious!! Only because we suck sooooo baaaaaad.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:26 pm
  • FUUUUUUUUU- :enraged: :cussing:
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:33 pm
  • Gotta stick with Wilhelmsen, he's your closer.

    What if we made him...not our closer?

    Gotta stick with him, he's your closer.

    Yeah but what if he wasn't.

    But he is.

    But we can replace him.

    But you gotta stick with him, he's your closer.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:45 pm
  • pinksheets wrote:Gotta stick with Wilhelmsen, he's your closer.

    What if we made him...not our closer?

    Gotta stick with him, he's your closer.

    Yeah but what if he wasn't.

    But he is.

    But we can replace him.

    But you gotta stick with him, he's your closer.


    But what if we found someone better?
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:49 pm
  • JOz56 wrote:
    pinksheets wrote:Gotta stick with Wilhelmsen, he's your closer.

    What if we made him...not our closer?

    Gotta stick with him, he's your closer.

    Yeah but what if he wasn't.

    But he is.

    But we can replace him.

    But you gotta stick with him, he's your closer.


    But what if we found someone better?


    But that guy's not your closer.

    Tom Wilhelmsen is, you gotta stick with him.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:51 pm
  • pinksheets wrote:Gotta stick with Wilhelmsen, he's your closer.

    What if we made him...not our closer?

    Gotta stick with him, he's your closer.

    Yeah but what if he wasn't.

    But he is.

    But we can replace him.

    But you gotta stick with him, he's your closer.


    He was so good to start the year........what happened to him? Oh wait......he plays for the M's, that answers it.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:04 pm
  • My honest opinion is that with a team this bad, with a season all but lost, who gives a flying fffffffccckkkk(no u makes it ok, right?) about a closer? It's not a big deal. We can pitch whatever relievers we want to see some time. If Wilhelmsen isn't closing anything, just play guys you want to see in the big leagues. He can't control his pitches at all lately, move on, pitch Furbush for ffffffccckkkk's sake. Who cares? Get younger guys some experience and build a sample size you're happy with to make decisions on them. Let Wilhelmsen work out his problems in a non-game situation. He's young enough that he might be an asset worth holding onto if we can put something together with our prospects in a couple of years, but he's not so young that you need to force it.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:09 pm
  • pinksheets wrote:
    JOz56 wrote:
    pinksheets wrote:Gotta stick with Wilhelmsen, he's your closer.

    What if we made him...not our closer?

    Gotta stick with him, he's your closer.

    Yeah but what if he wasn't.

    But he is.

    But we can replace him.

    But you gotta stick with him, he's your closer.


    But what if we found someone better?


    But that guy's not your closer.

    Tom Wilhelmsen is, you gotta stick with him.


    What if we get another closer who is better, and have him change his name to Tom WIlhelmsen? Can we rebuild him? Do we have the money to do so?
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:18 pm
  • JOz56 wrote:What if we get another closer who is better, and have him change his name to Tom WIlhelmsen? Can we rebuild him? Do we have the money to do so?

    No, we only have the money to acquire television stations, not good baseball players.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:27 pm
  • pinksheets wrote:
    JOz56 wrote:What if we get another closer who is better, and have him change his name to Tom WIlhelmsen? Can we rebuild him? Do we have the money to do so?

    No, we only have the money to acquire television stations, not good baseball players.


    Well, damn...
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:54 pm
  • The Seahawks should just go over to the Mariners' locker room and start bitch slappin' some bitches.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:08 am
  • yep I think the bartender needs to get 86'd. Just odd to see his control go to crap like that, I see a trip to the DL coming for him, something aint right with him.

    Bonderman pitched a gem, Franklin is hitting and even Zunino got a hit its not all bad :D
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:39 am
  • Blitzer88 wrote:He was so good to start the year........what happened to him? Oh wait......he plays for the M's, that answers it.

    :th2thumbs:




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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:54 am
  • I think he needs to be removed from the role temporarily, not forever but tell him he's out for 2 weeks or a month or something and let him have some mop up time to work on his problems. I'm sure he can get his control back. I feel bad for the guy, in the interview after the game he just looked like he was in a daze and was devastated.

    I also think the CDC needs to come to Seattle and check out the clubhouse in Safeco field because it looks like we have a new disease called suckusballitus that seems to be spreading and they need to contain it ASAP.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:04 am
  • Only 9 games back in the Wild Card!!!!

    Sigh
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:20 am
  • Msfann wrote:I think he needs to be removed from the role temporarily, not forever but tell him he's out for 2 weeks or a month or something and let him have some mop up time to work on his problems. I'm sure he can get his control back. I feel bad for the guy, in the interview after the game he just looked like he was in a daze and was devastated.


    I agree. Put Capps or Furbush in as closer, put the Bartender in relief. Cannot be worse.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:16 pm
  • pinksheets wrote:
    JOz56 wrote:
    pinksheets wrote:Gotta stick with Wilhelmsen, he's your closer.

    What if we made him...not our closer?

    Gotta stick with him, he's your closer.

    Yeah but what if he wasn't.

    But he is.

    But we can replace him.

    But you gotta stick with him, he's your closer.


    But what if we found someone better?


    But that guy's not your closer.

    Tom Wilhelmsen is, you gotta stick with him.

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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:46 am
  • And yet another beat down last night 9-2 or somethig like that.. wooohooo go Mariners.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:46 am
  • hawker84 wrote:And yet another beat down last night 9-2 or somethig like that.. wooohooo go Mariners.


    You're only seeing what you want to see. Mariners took 2 of 3 from one of the better teams in baseball.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:32 am
  • InSuarezWeTrust wrote:
    hawker84 wrote:And yet another beat down last night 9-2 or somethig like that.. wooohooo go Mariners.


    You're only seeing what you want to see. Mariners took 2 of 3 from one of the better teams in baseball.

    True and I like it. Still, would've been nice to get their first series sweep of the year.

    What I'm afraid of is that they'll climb tantalizingly close to .500 again and then go on another 7-8 game losing streak. In other words, like they almost always do, give us hope and then pull the rug out from under our feet. I sincerely hope not.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:40 am
  • I hate being right about Tom Wilhemsen, but damned if I didn't see us losing lots of games with him as the closer. Makes Brandon League look like Mariano Rivera.

    I find myself wondering something.. Why the hell is Carter Capps not the closer? Now that kid has an arm on him.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:57 am
  • Wilhelmsen is nothing like League. Wilhelmsen has (had?) an ace-curveball. League just threw really hard.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:34 pm
  • Wilhelmsen was amazing to start the year. Then came the Cleveland Indians game on May 20th, where the ump would not call a strike for him. This made Wilhelmsen have to throw the ball over the plate, which of course was hit, causing a run to be scored. Ever since that game, he has been shaky. He has confidence issues that need to be resolved.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:21 pm
  • So can we DFA Harang and bring up Erasmo Ramirez now?
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:32 pm
  • Smelly McUgly wrote:Wilhelmsen is nothing like League. Wilhelmsen has (had?) an ace-curveball. League just threw really hard.


    That curve is the ONLY thing Wilhelmsen has, but he can't throw it every damn pitch! Not many pitches are harder on the wrist, arm, and elbow.

    League wasn't a bad closer. When he could find that split fingered fastball, he was unhittable. The heat was always on tap.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:04 pm
  • SmokinHawk wrote:
    Smelly McUgly wrote:Wilhelmsen is nothing like League. Wilhelmsen has (had?) an ace-curveball. League just threw really hard.


    That curve is the ONLY thing Wilhelmsen has, but he can't throw it every damn pitch! Not many pitches are harder on the wrist, arm, and elbow.

    League wasn't a bad closer. When he could find that split fingered fastball, he was unhittable. The heat was always on tap.


    You mean besides the 98 MPH fastball. I think he will be fine. All pitchers go through this, he will get through it. We definitely shouldn't give up on him.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:12 pm
  • bigtrain21 wrote:
    SmokinHawk wrote:
    Smelly McUgly wrote:Wilhelmsen is nothing like League. Wilhelmsen has (had?) an ace-curveball. League just threw really hard.


    That curve is the ONLY thing Wilhelmsen has, but he can't throw it every damn pitch! Not many pitches are harder on the wrist, arm, and elbow.

    League wasn't a bad closer. When he could find that split fingered fastball, he was unhittable. The heat was always on tap.


    You mean besides the 98 MPH fastball. I think he will be fine. All pitchers go through this, he will get through it. We definitely shouldn't give up on him.


    Wilhelmsen has the heat, but every hitter facing him knows exactly where he is going to place it.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:23 pm
  • bigtrain21 wrote:You mean besides the 98 MPH fastball. I think he will be fine. All pitchers go through this, he will get through it. We definitely shouldn't give up on him.


    Yup. For whatever reason (and there could be myriads of them) the bartender has lost his mojo right now, but i have no reservations that it's not coming back. His stuff is just too good.

    As far as Brandon League, well, mattingly has figured out what he's got there now too, hence League's removal from the closer role.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:33 am

Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:24 am
  • m0ng0 wrote:Bonderman is starting to impress


    His last few outings have been impressive, but his strikeout rate hasn't been. Not sure if he can keep this up without striking people out.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:29 am
  • The Outfield wrote:
    m0ng0 wrote:Bonderman is starting to impress


    His last few outings have been impressive, but his strikeout rate hasn't been. Not sure if he can keep this up without striking people out.

    Jamie Moyer disagrees with you. :D
    Bottom line, if he's learned how to get people out it doesn't matter how. We'll see but it's looking pretty good right now. Rooting for you Jeremy, especially since you're a Pasco guy.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:11 pm
  • Mariners get Felix more than enough run support and than he gives it up......man nothing ever goes right for our M's.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:49 pm
  • Blitzer88 wrote:Mariners get Felix more than enough run support and than he gives it up......man nothing ever goes right for our M's.


    I ran to town to get our 50# burlap sacks of wheat and flour and other assorted vittles around the top of the 4th and we're up 8-2. The last thing i hear heading out the door is that Felix is 28-0 when we score 7+ runs in 31 starts he's been fortunate enough to have been spotted...in. Make sense?

    Well he's still 28-0 and we still managed to lose. Figures. Again.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:39 am
  • Blitzer88 wrote:Mariners get Felix more than enough run support and than he gives it up......man nothing ever goes right for our M's.

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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:12 pm
  • Mariners bring up brad miller. Let's hope he takes command os SS
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:34 pm
  • He's looked decent so far.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:04 am
  • I am so glad they are starting to bring some of these kids up ! Zunino was clutch last night
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:52 am
  • So, July 1st is tomorrow. Who do you think Seattle will trade away before the end of the month? My guess is Ibanez is garnering the most attention.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:50 am
  • SeatownJay wrote:So, July 1st is tomorrow. Who do you think Seattle will trade away before the end of the month? My guess is Ibanez is garnering the most attention.

    Agree. Dude is still an very fine major league hitter. May break Teddy Ballgame's record for homers in a season by a player age 40+. Record is 29 dingers (Williams did it at age 41 in 1960, his last season).
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:38 pm
  • I think Wilhelmsen will be fine. He's having trouble with his mechanics. Sometimes flying open, sometimes throwing across his body. He just can't put the ball where he wants to, with any of his pitches. He used to live knee-high on the black with his fastball, and then would throw it up and out of the zone with two strikes. He's leaving the fastball in the middle of the plate now, belt high, or way out of the zone. I don't care how hard you throw, you're gonna get touched if you start doing that. He has also lost command of the curve, and hangs it or pulls it across the zone.

    It looks like the first batch of kids, our highest rated prospects, are possibly all busts. Now the second wave of kids coming up, most of them less acclaimed, hopefully are ball players. We'll see how Franklin reacts after teams adjust to him. He's going to struggle at some point, how will he come out of it? I don't like Miller's stance. He's lunge-ish. That is a gimmick built for more bat speed that usually gets exposed at this level. Zunino looks like he came up way too soon. Looks pretty lost at the plate.

    Is this Jack Z putting all his chips on the table? These guys will be attached to his legacy, not somebody else's. So he's going to bring up everybody he's got so he can take credit for all of them. Is there any chance he or Wedge are around next season?
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:47 pm
  • They need one of the 3 of Ackley, Montero, Smoak, to be a decent player, and I know he is young but I have serious doubts about Montero. I have more faith in the second wave of Franklin, Zunino, and Miller, who may have been considered less talented but are scrappy and seem to have a better "drive" than the first wave. Just one guy's opinion!
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:15 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:It looks like the first batch of kids, our highest rated prospects, are possibly all busts. Now the second wave of kids coming up, most of them less acclaimed, hopefully are ball players. We'll see how Franklin reacts after teams adjust to him. He's going to struggle at some point, how will he come out of it? I don't like Miller's stance. He's lunge-ish. That is a gimmick built for more bat speed that usually gets exposed at this level.


    I haven't watched every game recently like I have in seasons past, but, I've noticed a lot of great things about both Miller and Franklin. Call me crazy, but I saw a smaller John Olerud style about Miller's approach (and swing) at the plate. His open stance presents itself well from that side of the plate, I suppose. Big things! (I hope)
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:49 am
  • I haven't either, but besides Ibanez and Kyle is there any starters left on the roster? Smoak i think and the pitching staff? Or is it pretty much all call ups at this point.
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:39 pm
  • I'm gonna call my shot right now. I'm sold. This is the group that is going to make it happen (players). Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. After this season, we're going to make the playoffs at least five of the next ten years. Remember this month, and this season. This will be the one we look back on like we do the 2002 Seahawks. Nick Franklin will continue to be the catalyst. Seager will continue to be the rock. Ackley will be a perennial .300 hitter. Zunino is going to be Dan Wilson with a little more pop during his prime. They are still a speedster and a stud middle of the order bat short, but they'll get them. Felix is going to lead a phenomenal young staff for years to come. And there will be hardware.
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
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    Tical21
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:21 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:I'm gonna call my shot right now. I'm sold. This is the group that is going to make it happen (players). Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. After this season, we're going to make the playoffs at least five of the next ten years. Remember this month, and this season. This will be the one we look back on like we do the 2002 Seahawks. Nick Franklin will continue to be the catalyst. Seager will continue to be the rock. Ackley will be a perennial .300 hitter. Zunino is going to be Dan Wilson with a little more pop during his prime. They are still a speedster and a stud middle of the order bat short, but they'll get them. Felix is going to lead a phenomenal young staff for years to come. And there will be hardware.

    I say that with different names every year.... For let's see about 10 years now.
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    425HawkSpark
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:25 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:I'm gonna call my shot right now. I'm sold. This is the group that is going to make it happen (players). Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. After this season, we're going to make the playoffs at least five of the next ten years. Remember this month, and this season. This will be the one we look back on like we do the 2002 Seahawks. Nick Franklin will continue to be the catalyst. Seager will continue to be the rock. Ackley will be a perennial .300 hitter. Zunino is going to be Dan Wilson with a little more pop during his prime. They are still a speedster and a stud middle of the order bat short, but they'll get them. Felix is going to lead a phenomenal young staff for years to come. And there will be hardware.



    Oh no. As an eternal optimist I've said the similar things for years. Now that I've finally convinced myself to stop hoping and stop letting the losing bother me you do this…… thanks a lot.
    35!
    AHH-OOH!
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    KK84
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:03 pm
  • KK84 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:I'm gonna call my shot right now. I'm sold. This is the group that is going to make it happen (players). Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. After this season, we're going to make the playoffs at least five of the next ten years. Remember this month, and this season. This will be the one we look back on like we do the 2002 Seahawks. Nick Franklin will continue to be the catalyst. Seager will continue to be the rock. Ackley will be a perennial .300 hitter. Zunino is going to be Dan Wilson with a little more pop during his prime. They are still a speedster and a stud middle of the order bat short, but they'll get them. Felix is going to lead a phenomenal young staff for years to come. And there will be hardware.



    Oh no. As an eternal optimist I've said the similar things for years. Now that I've finally convinced myself to stop hoping and stop letting the losing bother me you do this…… thanks a lot.

    Sorry my friend. I've been the exact opposite. I've known since 2002 that we didn't have any hope until we built through the farm again, and that it would take FOREVER. Jack Z is doing what I was screaming for. Over the next two years, we're going to be young, improving, and CHEAP. Perfect! Once we build momentum, that is when we spend the dough for the final piece or two.

    I'm bullish on Montero. He has such a sweet swing. He just needs the right coach.

    I'd love to find a way to keep Kendrys, but won't lose too much sleep when we can't.

    Sorry, but I don't think Miller will make it. His stance is the way it is because he can't generate enough bat speed with a balanced stance. You don't see guys swing against their body and make it. That swing is too long. And he has to open his feet to compensate so he doesn't pull out. In the end, because this makes such a long swing, he has to guess right, or he's F'd. Guys at this level are just too nasty to guess right all the time. It is a shame, because we don't have a lot coming up at short besides him and Triuenfel. Things get so much easier if one of them can play.

    Wilhelmsen is almost back. Still left a few pitches too high. He was as good as anybody in the business at locating his fastball. He's on the right track.

    Now we need one last good ol' fashioned fire sale. Sell Ibanez. Sell Morales. Sell Morse if you can. Sell Perez. Would a team give us anything decent for a combination of these guys? I'm still on the fence about trading Iwakuma. I can't see him keeping up this pace for the next several years, so my head says to trade him while he has a bunch of value. But the dare to dream mentality thinks maybe he can pitch really good for the next 2-3 years. Maybe I'll roll the dice and keep him around.

    I'm optimistic basically for one reason, Franklin. We've needed somebody for a decade now that was so confident and gritty that he was immune to the culture of failure and not hitting. We've needed somebody to come in and say "I don't care if the rest of you aren't hitting, I don't care about the ballpark, I don't care about the losing, I'm just going to hit, dammit". Similar to McCutchan in Pittsburgh. And it has to be done with flair. Only then can it be infectious. It will get the most out of Ackley and Zunino. Can it inspire Smoak? Meh, doubtful. How does your 1st baseman have 13 RBI at the halfway mark?

    I hope Jack Z gets to keep his job. I wouldn't mind a new manager though. Wedge isn't the problem, but I don't think he is the solution either. Sadly, there is no way they let Jack Z hire another new manager. They're probably both as good as gone.
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:02 am
  • Some good points tikal, but only Iwakuma and the King are bringing anything in return. Morse, morales and ibanez would be salary dumps with maybe a low level prospect.

    If you feel the team needs to rebuild through the farm, and at this point your top prospects are already in the majors, Iwakuma or Hernandez are the only chips that will reestablish that.

    However, I'm on the other end, this teams salary is very low, and with four guys coming off the books (including Bay and Morales) its another good summer to go after top free agents. Not the Josh Hamiltons of the world but the Michale Cuddyers (two FAs from last year in different parts of the salary landscape, but with MC clearly outplaying JH). Those mid tier buys can really help stabalize this club competitively. We tried to spent 130 mill last year but are only spending 80. Would love to see 3-5 mid tier FAs come in
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    Uncle Si
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Re: Let's Talk Mariners
Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:57 am
  • I am with you Tical, things are starting to click with a few of these guys, the rotation is starting to solidify, Wilhelmson is starting to find his groove again and the kids are starting to hit. Even Smoak is up to .255

    Until Seattle starts WINNING consistently and making the playoffs they just cannot compete for the masher type free agents. We need to find solid gap hitters with speed and thats how you win at Safeco playing more of an aggressive national league style, a small ball approach if you will. These types of free agents do not demand the premium that a Fielder or Hamilton get. Power is going to have to be home grown until they develop a culture of winning and until that happens you plug in guys like Bay, Morse and Ibanez whom IMO have all performed better then expected.

    The outfield has been the real tragedy of this season, Guit can't stay healthy, Saunders has been a huge disappointment, when you have Ibanez and Bay as your every day corner outfielders and a converted second basemen playing center you got problems!

    I still think they will make .500 this year and that to me is a step in the right direction and reason to feel positive about what is happening here.

    I don't think anyone is getting traded and I don't really think they should, like Si said you don't get prospects with Morse or Ibanez and I think they are more valuable on the team then off.

    I suppose the next step is the young pitching, when do we see them start them?

    I like what I am seeing 8)
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    m0ng0
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Let's Talk Mariners
Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:38 pm
  • I have some issues with Wedge and his strategy. He likes to send big slow guys to steal and they get injured. Playing the " hot bat" vs statistics. Pulling pitchers at the wrong time.

    Z has done a mediocre job, he seems to have issues with talent evaluation IMO and likes to draft players that tend to be more major league ready , but with less upside. I would be ok with keeping them or cutting them loose. I don't see that we are that attractive of a landing spot and could we realistically find better.

    Before the trade deadline I would be ok with moving anyone given the right offer. We have some major league average players but no stellar position players. The best players we have are our 1-2 pitchers and I would try to keep those.

    This is and has been a bad team. Trying to build around Ackerly, Monterero and Smoak is a flop. We need to spin the wheel again and see what we can get. The younger guys mostly pitchers are 1-2 years away. We can build around the average or better position players we have Zunino, Miller ( I hope) Franklin and Seager.

    It hurts but that's they way I see it. Keep adding the missing parts and improve, band aids not work we went down that road already, and the best free agents don't want to come to a losing team and organization.
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