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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:34 am 
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jkitsune wrote:
If you genuinely don't understand the difference between disagreeing and insulting, and how this applies to the posts you have been making, then there is no honest discourse to be had on this topic.



So my disagrements are insults? But yours aren't right?? lol

I certainly do understand the difference between disagrements and insults. I disagree with your opinion which is my right. I'm insulted that the Mariners treat their fans so badly.

And if you don't think they are treating you badly, I feel for you but accept you want to love your baseball. I too used to feel that way. When I was growing up there was always a game on, didn't matter who was playing you were glad to listen to anyone.

But the players strikes and attitudes and off the field problems got to me and after the last strike they lost me forever. Not the players as much as the owners but still pretty close. So if you think my not liking the way they do things is insulting,,,so what? Everyone on this board has an opinion and if you want me to accept yours then you have to accept mine.

I laugh at you kids that come in here and get all insulted if someone doesn't love the teams you love. This is a sports board for Christ's sake not your back yard.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:33 pm 
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So this Steve Delabar guy that made the allstar game.. how did we let him go? Trade him for a bag of potato chips? just release him ?

I don't follow the Ms much but i'd like to know what happend here hah.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:36 pm 
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TheRealDTM wrote:
So this Steve Delabar guy that made the allstar game.. how did we let him go? Trade him for a bag of potato chips? just release him ?

I don't follow the Ms much but i'd like to know what happend here hah.


All I could find was that he was involved in a trade that brought Eric Thames here, and was sent to the Jays.

Yup

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:23 pm 
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Mariners are notorious for trading players that end up being productive for other teams. R.A. Dickey won a CY Young but couldn't do squat when he was here. Doug Fister was a good pitcher here but they traded him for bag of manure, Michael Pineda for a PED user in Triple AAA who can't hit or catch. Adam Jones and bunch of others for Bedard. Shin-Choo Soo, Asdrubal Cabrera to Cleveland for Franklin G. (never healthy).


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:28 pm 
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The Bedard one still pisses me off.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:38 pm 
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hawkfan68 wrote:
Mariners are notorious for trading players that end up being productive for other teams. R.A. Dickey won a CY Young but couldn't do squat when he was here. Doug Fister was a good pitcher here but they traded him for bag of manure, Michael Pineda for a PED user in Triple AAA who can't hit or catch. Adam Jones and bunch of others for Bedard. Shin-Choo Soo, Asdrubal Cabrera to Cleveland for Franklin G. (never healthy).


Actually, Franklin was a pickup from the JJ Putz trade (which, on the whole, likely turned out for the best for the M's).

Choo and Cabrera were traded for Eduardo Perez (I think his name was) and Ben Broussard by Bill Bavasi. They were atrocious trades at the time, but look positively prescient next to the Adam Jones debacle.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:56 am 
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And yet another blown lead.. How do you contine to put up 6,7,8 runs a game and still lose.. ?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:20 am 
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it does not help when our starters can't clear the 5th inning in 3 of the last 4 starts. And Boston is a pretty good team.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:09 am 
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JOz56 wrote:
TheRealDTM wrote:
So this Steve Delabar guy that made the allstar game.. how did we let him go? Trade him for a bag of potato chips? just release him ?

I don't follow the Ms much but i'd like to know what happend here hah.


All I could find was that he was involved in a trade that brought Eric Thames here, and was sent to the Jays.

Yup

To be fair, at the time of the trade Delabar was atrocious. He gave up a bomb just about every time he made an appearance. I was actually surprised anyone would give up so much as a bag of balls for him. I was actually an advocate of flat out releasing him. He throws hard, and obviously learned how to keep the ball down and developed an offspeed pitch of some sort.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:11 am 
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and its always easy to criticize these trades in hindsight, especially when you have a bone to pick to begin with.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:31 am 
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I'm happy for Delabar. Voted for him in the final vote and yeah. Shame Puig didn't win...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:21 am 
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So the problem is with our coaching/training staff then?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:03 pm 
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it appears it has taken him 8 years in the minors and 2 sniffs in the show to finally get his stuff worked out and now its finally paying off for him. I say good work Mr. Delabar.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:31 pm 
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On a lighter note (sorta):

Any chance Ibanez gets tested for roids over the break? Holy hell, did you SEE that home run he hit tonight? It was caught by a fan dining at the Hit It Here restaurant!

How does someone do that at age 41?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Ibanez is out of control. No seriously, he's out of control. And why isn't he getting national attention?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:24 pm 
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My god the offense has come ALIVE ! Safeco Joe is pitching lights out as well ! I gotta say I am enjoying watching this team again ! Can't wait to be at the park sunday !

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Wish I lived closer to Seattle.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Man, its awesome what Raul is doing but its a shame it wont last long. He is either gonna get traded by the deadline or retire after this year (Maybe he'll play another year??) then we are gonna have another huge hole to fill in the lineup.

but dang, Raul is amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:12 pm 
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GoldenIsThyTate wrote:
Man, its awesome what Raul is doing but its a shame it wont last long. He is either gonna get traded by the deadline or retire after this year (Maybe he'll play another year??) then we are gonna have another huge hole to fill in the lineup.

but dang, Raul is amazing.


Raul's a nice story. I don't get to watch many games down here in SF, but it's nice to see a bat have some success, and it's nice to see the Mariners generate offense, particularly with the pitching they have coming up. If they could trade Raul and get something of value for him, I'd be OK with that, though. The odds that Raul keeps this up much longer aren't great at 41, he's an atrocious fielder, and really only has business being a DH at this point. The M's have a ton of DH types (Morales, Raul, Montero, Morse) and will have to unload some of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Raul has been amazing! So nice to see some offense from the Ms........now if only the pitching could hold their own now.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Taking walks, hitting with two strikes: Who is this Justin Smoak, and did he kidnap and stash the old Justin Smoak in his basement?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:58 pm 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
Taking walks, hitting with two strikes: Who is this Justin Smoak, and did he kidnap and stash the old Justin Smoak in his basement?


And can he leave him there? Just completely forget about him? I dunno about an all star, but I would be happy with solid production like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:26 pm 
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About time the Ms got their first sweep of the year. Nice to see the offense coming around. Lets just hope they can keep it up for the long term.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:54 pm 
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Blitzer88 wrote:
About time the Ms got their first sweep of the year. Nice to see the offense coming around. Lets just hope they can keep it up for the long term.


yeah, its nice to see Smoak hiting well too, i had given up on him.

hopefully this isnt just our annual all-star break run.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:19 pm 
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GoldenIsThyTate wrote:
yeah, its nice to see Smoak hiting well too, i had given up on him.

hopefully this isnt just our annual all-star break run.

Ditto & ditto

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:55 pm 
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At this point I will take Major League average. The young guys seem to be getting their act together. Is it sustainable ? Who knows and I have no psychic ability and I am just enjoying it.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:04 pm 
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last sunday was damn near perfect, I even picked up an old school trident hat :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:11 pm 
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We almost have an order next year that is an MLB club:

(Insert speedy CF)
Nick Franklin 2B
Kyle Seager 3B
(Insert DH Power Hitter)
(Insert LF/RF)
Justin Smoak 1B
(Insert LF/RF)
Brad Miller SS
Mike Zunino C

SP:
Hernandez
Iwakuma
Walker
Paxton
Hultzen

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:41 pm 
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I think that Kendrys Morales and Raul Ibanez producing in the middle of the lineup has a lot to do with the others playing well. They are seeing better pitches (ones they can hit) now. Keeping one, if not both, should be a priority.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:59 pm 
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in addition to them I would include Morse

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:21 am 
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Speaking of Morse, what's his status?

Second half starting, should be interesting to see how these young bucks perform the rest of the way...

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:24 am 
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I would be fine with a short-term deal for Morales. He's 31 and a power guy, so he's probably got two more years of solid production at best. Honestly, unless Seattle can trade Morales or Ibanez for a long-term starter in the OF (which is unlikely), I see no reason to trade either guy. I think it might be more important to get back to .500 by the end of the year and show some improvement than it is to get some life-long AA prospects or whatever.

I would be fine with trading Morse, however. In fact, can we undo that trade and have Jaso back to platoon with Zunino? No? OK, in that case, Morse can still go elsewhere. I would prefer an AAA prospect in the outfield that can actually compete for a spot next Spring Training.

Where is everyone on Iwakuma? I like the guy, though he seems to be coming back down to earth. I don't think he costs much, though, and I would not trade him unless someone was still into his first-half numbers and would trade big on the pretext of getting those numbers. Otherwise, he could be a fine 2/3 for next year depending on how Paxton, Hultzen, and Walker progress (though Hultzen being hurt again SUUUUUUCKS).

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:58 pm 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
I would be fine with a short-term deal for Morales. He's 31 and a power guy, so he's probably got two more years of solid production at best. Honestly, unless Seattle can trade Morales or Ibanez for a long-term starter in the OF (which is unlikely), I see no reason to trade either guy. I think it might be more important to get back to .500 by the end of the year and show some improvement than it is to get some life-long AA prospects or whatever.

I would be fine with trading Morse, however. In fact, can we undo that trade and have Jaso back to platoon with Zunino? No? OK, in that case, Morse can still go elsewhere. I would prefer an AAA prospect in the outfield that can actually compete for a spot next Spring Training.

Where is everyone on Iwakuma? I like the guy, though he seems to be coming back down to earth. I don't think he costs much, though, and I would not trade him unless someone was still into his first-half numbers and would trade big on the pretext of getting those numbers. Otherwise, he could be a fine 2/3 for next year depending on how Paxton, Hultzen, and Walker progress (though Hultzen being hurt again SUUUUUUCKS).


I think you may be underestimating Morales - there are plenty of examples of DH/1b players producing at the plate well into their 30s (I'm not going to comment on Raul's ridiculous 41-year-old season, as that defies most explanation), and he may well be a productive hitter for longer than 2 years. Raul on the other hand is way more likely to come down to earth next year or the year after, based solely on age. His success this year is arguably the more abnormal of the two.

I think Iwakuma's a genuinely good pitcher who has sustained his success as a starter over a full season now and likely has several good years left. I don't think he can be expected to maintain his ridiculous BB/K rates and overall untouchability, but IMO the decision to keep him is fairly easy, particularly for a starting rotation that may be fielding 3 rookies next year who are more likely than not to struggle. That said, there are such things as offers too good to turn down, and he would obviously be a highly valued target.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:31 pm 
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jkitsune: Fair points.

Re: Morales, it could just be my Richie Sexon-meter going off, but I do believe that power-guys that get their numbers through swinging a lot (and striking out a lot) tend to fall off quicker as they lose bat speed into their mid- and then late-30s. You are right that there are some examples of DH/1B types that hit well into their mid- or even late-30s (hey, Edgar was a solid producer through his age 40 season, going .294/.406/.489). However, I think those tend to be exceptions.

Furthermore, the power hitters that do make it are usually good at taking walks to make up for their loss of power - like Edgar. This is not one of Morales' strong suits, unfortunately (he's got a 25/66 BB/K ratio this year, so not good). If he can take more walks as he gets older, I would roll the dice on him through his age 34 year, but he hasn't shown an inclination to stop swinging so much. I mean, I think it's worth a risk because he won't cost that much, more than likely, but I don't think that I am underestimating power hitters that swing at everything THAT much. Maybe somewhat, but I feel like Morales does not have the skillset to compensate for his eventual loss of bat speed that is occurring even now.

Re: Iwakuma, I think you are right on this one. We are running Saunders and Harang out there now because we don't have many options in the first place. Even if two of Ramirez/Hultzen/Paxton/Walker are ready to go next year, it makes no sense to get rid of a low-cost SP that is a reliable #3 at worst. Iwakuma isn't the guy that he was over the first half of the season minus his last two starts, but he's definitely a good player. Keep him unless our socks get knocked off in a trade offer.

I felt this way about Fister a couple years ago, and I think Iwakuma deserves that sort of approach as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
jkitsune: Fair points.

Re: Morales, it could just be my Richie Sexon-meter going off, but I do believe that power-guys that get their numbers through swinging a lot (and striking out a lot) tend to fall off quicker as they lose bat speed into their mid- and then late-30s. You are right that there are some examples of DH/1B types that hit well into their mid- or even late-30s (hey, Edgar was a solid producer through his age 40 season, going .294/.406/.489). However, I think those tend to be exceptions.

Furthermore, the power hitters that do make it are usually good at taking walks to make up for their loss of power - like Edgar. This is not one of Morales' strong suits, unfortunately (he's got a 25/66 BB/K ratio this year, so not good). If he can take more walks as he gets older, I would roll the dice on him through his age 34 year, but he hasn't shown an inclination to stop swinging so much. I mean, I think it's worth a risk because he won't cost that much, more than likely, but I don't think that I am underestimating power hitters that swing at everything THAT much. Maybe somewhat, but I feel like Morales does not have the skillset to compensate for his eventual loss of bat speed that is occurring even now.

Re: Iwakuma, I think you are right on this one. We are running Saunders and Harang out there now because we don't have many options in the first place. Even if two of Ramirez/Hultzen/Paxton/Walker are ready to go next year, it makes no sense to get rid of a low-cost SP that is a reliable #3 at worst. Iwakuma isn't the guy that he was over the first half of the season minus his last two starts, but he's definitely a good player. Keep him unless our socks get knocked off in a trade offer.

I felt this way about Fister a couple years ago, and I think Iwakuma deserves that sort of approach as well.


You make good points. I went back and reviewed Morales' numbers, and think that I agree with you. That said, it's hard to judge given his injury history and the gap between full seasons, what his real baseline ability is. Morales hits for a higher average but also takes fewer walks than Sexson did in his prime. It may actually not be a great idea to predict Morales will be productive for more than a couple seasons. That said, as I believe you originally stated as well, keeping him around isn't such a bad idea. So, touche.

I'm not sure I've ever had a web forum interaction where both parties change their opinions an equal amount. Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:26 am 
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On Ibanez, I can't reasonably believe any team would make a substantial prospect offer in trade for him. And if I'm Jack Z and Wedge, I'm giving a lot more weight to Raul's value than just his production. Looking at his leadership, teaching efforts, and the overall chemistry of the team that he's been a vital element to building; to carry that 2 or 3 more years with him wanting to be in Seattle until he hangs it up, I'm not looking to trade him given what you could expect to receive in return.

Perez, Morse, Morales, Saunders, Ryan and Wilhelmsen....sure.

I'd like to keep Morales, I think his best years are ahead of him, and we should get him at the right price. But if a good offer is made, by all means, ask for a little more and see what happens.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:18 pm 
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I don't see Ibanez getting moved. He gets people filling seats. He is a league leader in HRs at his age which peaks interest.

Morales if he is a able to get resigned at a decent price is a good idea. Right now we need major league average players. We can groom or pick upper superior major leaguers as time goes on. We have ( I hope) some players to build on now at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:17 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:58 pm 
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You aren't going to get any high level prospect for either guy, and you have no HR hitters coming up from the minors. Try and keep both guys


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:39 pm 
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So nice to see the bottom of the order score 4 runs there, so much different from the start of the year when we were batting shoppach, Ryan, and andino


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Miller and Franklin are going to be studs for us. Miller has as good of range as Ryan has.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:09 pm 
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Screw it, I'm taking the plunge. I am ALL IN on Brad Miller.

jkitsune: Thanks for the discussion. I like to hear perspectives from other people. About the only thing I know is that I don't know that much about many topics, and baseball is one of 'em.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
Screw it, I'm taking the plunge. I am ALL IN on Brad Miller.

jkitsune: Thanks for the discussion. I like to hear perspectives from other people. About the only thing I know is that I don't know that much about many topics, and baseball is one of 'em.


I'll raise you Miller as well. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:46 am 
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I have even come around on Smoak! Ackley is the piece that needs to put up or move on now. We are creeping up towards .500 which was my expectation for the year with Saunders, Harrang and whatever other scrub we can throw at teams. If the offense continues to gel and we can start to mix in the young guns (when deemed ready) to the back end of the rotation we could be pretty good next year.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Tell me how well we are playing when the sun goes down, our improved hitting has happened just about the time the weather here has got hot, ball carries a lot better. I am glad the youngsters are getting better, but consistent play over months and not weeks is the next step and in the heavy weather of fall and early spring. I know the Mariners had the hottest or one of the hottest offense's in July so far.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:54 pm 
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The M's are so hot they got 1 hit and are winning 4-2.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:10 pm 
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hahaha I was just about to say the same thing !

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:22 pm 
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You know it's a slow day in news when ESPN puts the Mariners game in their headlines.

http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=330720118

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:47 am 
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7-0 top of 2nd

Dayummm

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk Mariners
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:55 am 
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Can't believe I'm watching these guys. They've got me interested again. Hell, I'm posting on a football forum.

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