How good is the USMNT??

Smurf

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The USMNT today came from behind to beat #13 Bosnia 4-3, led by Jozy Altidore who tallied a hat trick and an assist.

The US has won 12 strait games. Which is top 5 all time in terms of streaks (#1 being spain with 15).

The team is also 3 points away from qualification to the world cup with 6 games to play (it might be 4 games, can't remember).

The team is no longer just two big names and a legendary keeper (Donovan, Dempsey, and Howard). We legitimately have a squad that gels together and is a force to be reckoned with.

We not only have Howard, Dempsey, Donovan but we have an anchor in the center of the park in Michael Bradley, and a stud up front in Jozy Altidore. The cast is coming together and I think there is a chance we can make a real run at the world cup.

Now im not saying we will win it, or anything like that, but we certainly are capable of making a deep run at it. The talent level is getting there, and the teams understanding of how to play together is at an all time high.

Thoughts??
 

Uncle Si

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Good team. Has some nice pieces. Should be expected to make it from the group stages if we get the right draw. Play a good style. Mix of the 433 with that hearty American ethic.

Still outside of altidores recent form they struggle technically overall. But its coming.
 

hawkfan68

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Klinsmann magic is working. That game yesterday was amazing. Going down early 2-0 to Bosnia and then scoring 4 goals in the second half. Klinsman has this team clicking and they were without arguably their two best players - Dempsey and Donovan. The ceiling for this team is really high and they way they are playing of late they may just hit it by the World Cup. That would be awesome.
 

MANUNITED23

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peachesenregalia":17k0hh7a said:
Be lucky to make it to the quarter Finals, Smurf. They just aren't good enough to compete with Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, Italy, Spain, Holland, etc.


Quarter-final is definitely reachable. Although I would like them to get top 3. As far as other countries go, I think Holland is massively overrated and so are Argentina. In my honest opinion Germany are going to reach the final and probably win it.
 

Uncle Si

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MANUNITED23":2nhiw8w7 said:
peachesenregalia":2nhiw8w7 said:
Be lucky to make it to the quarter Finals, Smurf. They just aren't good enough to compete with Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, Italy, Spain, Holland, etc.


Quarter-final is definitely reachable. Although I would like them to get top 3. As far as other countries go, I think Holland is massively overrated and so are Argentina. In my honest opinion Germany are going to reach the final and probably win it.

Germany is the nation to beat for the next two world cups. Agree on the Dutch. Argentina has just never clicked. I feel they've been far too inconsistent from the manager position.

Brazil is on the rise again. Belgium is quickly becoming a very good side as well.

To me the USMNT squad does not compare with these sides. They are still a generation away. But the current team can get in there and play with this level. Just dont see them getting results
 

Gatehawk

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We should probably remember that the side that played Bosnia isn't gonna be 100% similar to the one that travels to Brazil. It really all depends on the draw, I do believe that if the pieces fall right, we can make a deep run in the tournament. We're still a bit off of challenging for the World Cup, but we are capable of getting through the group stage, and finally getting over that last 16 hump. It's funny to think that at the beginning of the year people were questioning Jurgen's reign as US manager, and the rumors of discontent in the squad prior to the Snowclassico.
 

Uncle Si

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Gatehawk":326n3qv3 said:
We should probably remember that the side that played Bosnia isn't gonna be 100% similar to the one that travels to Brazil. It really all depends on the draw, I do believe that if the pieces fall right, we can make a deep run in the tournament. We're still a bit off of challenging for the World Cup, but we are capable of getting through the group stage, and finally getting over that last 16 hump. It's funny to think that at the beginning of the year people were questioning Jurgen's reign as US manager, and the rumors of discontent in the squad prior to the Snowclassico.

I'd forgot about the "discontent".... Good point of reference on development of team.
Final 16 has to be an expectation. Final 8 would be a dream really
 
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The snow game may end up being one of the most important games is USMNT history. That was a turning point in the program and the development of the team.


Final 16 is an expectation, and semi final is a real possibility.

We can play with those teams. We aren't that far behind anymore.
 

Uncle Si

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Smurf":2xg08exr said:
The snow game may end up being one of the most important games is USMNT history. That was a turning point in the program and the development of the team.


Final 16 is an expectation, and semi final is a real possibility.

We can play with those teams. We aren't that far behind anymore.

We are gulfs in class from Germany Brazil and even Belgium. Sorry but that's just the way it is. Still far behind the Dutch and Spanish as well ( or even the Argentines and a really underrated Columbian side) Catching up to Italy France England Greece Portugal etc. for sure

semifinals would take a massive effort to be honest.

What's a bit unnerving though is the amount of talent found in the u21 ranks of Belgium Germany Brazil England Spain etc as opposed to us. That needs to change.
 

MANUNITED23

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We are gulfs in class from Germany Brazil and even Belgium. Sorry but that's just the way it is. Still far behind the Dutch and Spanish as well ( or even the Argentines and a really underrated Columbian side) Catching up to Italy France England Greece Portugal etc. for sure

semifinals would take a massive effort to be honest.

What's a bit unnerving though is the amount of talent found in the u21 ranks of Belgium Germany Brazil England Spain etc as opposed to us. That needs to change.

You are absolutely spot on in regards to U-21 squads. All great teams have tremendous youth development system. Success of a national team starts with youth squads. If United States wants to compete for top 3 finish in the world cup then they must develop talent. Surely with so many folks living in here in United States, there is talent to be found.
 

knownone

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2014 will more than likely be the last World Cup for Donovan, Dempsey and Howard. So I'm hopeful we can get passed the final 16.
This team is on par with second tier European clubs, and its hard to be optimistic about a defense which boasts two converted midfielders at fullback. I'm hopeful though!
 
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I think we could make some very interesting games out of Germany, Spain, Brazil, Netherlands. Those 4 I think we can play with and make a game of it. Give them serious worry at times. Not saying we win, just saying we could give em a good game. Make em work for it.

I know we can beat Italy, France, Greece and Portugal. We have the quality for that now. No walk in the park. But we could get it done.

Belgium...that one i don't know about. They play like we do...just way better. Big, Strong, physical and quick and creative.


I think we can legitimately play against anyone in the world and have a shot to beat them.
 

Uncle Si

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While I admire your enthusiasm Smurf I think it both overrates the USMNTs technical ability and underrates the class if the worlds soccer elite.

While its soccer and any well coached team can "play with" another its a big stretch to assert that equates to competitive balance....

For 90 minutes anything can happen. But by that logic there are a score of teams that can play with Germany or Spain or Argentina
 

knownone

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Italy could field a team with their national team rejects and still field a team with more quality than the USMNT.

We are miles away in terms of depth and quality from any of the teams you mentioned except Greece.

We can hang with em and maybe pull out a favorable result, but I'd be surprised if we could win 3 out of 10 matches against teams of that quality.
 

SharkHawk

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The depth is building. Our "B" team right now is better by a longshot than the team that went to Italy in 1990 and nearly pulled off the unthinkable. That team almost knocked off Italy IN Italy, and clearly outplayed them for the majority of the match.

The USA team is better depth-wise now than the team that was within 45 minutes of winning the Confederations Cup in South Africa. To say they aren't there or are somehow worse than Italy is myopic at best. Those who follow the youth program in the USA now know that there are many bright stars on the horizon that are uber talented. Kids that are former baseball, basketball, and football players in the younger grades have moved on to soccer in order to get into the academy system and get paid to play. I taught a couple. One is on the USA watch list and was offered a full ride to U of North Carolina. He turned it down to go on a church mission and will be home in a month or so, and will then be playing in the MLS is my guess. The kid is 6'2" and about 210. His father was a D-I player and played for the national team in Ghana. He is the new generation of soccer player. His father was about 5'4" and raised his kids to be good soccer players, and this next generation have that size and strength and speed advantage due to diet and health overall.

This particular young man raced me when he was 11. I was a very fast runner back then. I had college sports speed and ran about a 4.67 at 215 lbs. which isn't bad. He beat me by two lengths then. He got faster in high school. He's bigger than I am and is much faster than I was in my prime and I was a good player. But this kid could outskill me in every area at age 12. I was a letterman as a freshman in high school (14 years old).

I see kids like this every single day in schools and they are now getting discovered. Klinnsman system favors developing those kids and bringing them along. We're on an upswing and will continue to be for some time.
 

Uncle Si

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knownone":10114yb4 said:
Italy could field a team with their national team rejects and still field a team with more quality than the USMNT.

We are miles away in terms of depth and quality from any of the teams you mentioned except Greece.


this is absolutely untrue. Outside of Germany and Spain, most of the world's national teams fall off quite a bit outside the Starting 11. Italy's Starting 11 has already lost to the US, so hard to believe its "rejects" would fair any better.

I will disagree with Shark on a couple things. First, our B squad isnt very strong. Its getting stronger, but still lacks impact players. Also, we didnt "almost knock off Italy" in 1990. I remember that game. While it was 1-0, we were hardly in it. Had one good look on goal (which was a bicycle kick if I recall). Just outclassed that whole tournament. very disappointing.

As I said in Smurf's post regarding the Academy high schools, the US youth system has evolved and is doing a far better job of developing and finding its talent. We should see some early results of that closer to 2015 as we prepare for 2018.

I would be cautious in saying the "new generation" has anything to do with size and speed. This country lacks technical ability. Our size and speed has been competitive with the rest of the world for decades. The world has plenty of big, fast strikers. (Soldado, Lukaku, Falcoa, Peter Crouch... kidding). but if he's 6'2" runs a 4.4 40 and has the foot skill of Goetze then sure.
 

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Who has the USMNT beat in an actual competitive match, that is at or near Italy's quality? Panama? Costa Rica?

A friendly is not an accurate barometer of how good we are end of discussion. The LA Galaxy beat Juventus 3-1 in a competitive friendly, which one of those teams has more quality players?

I've got a question for you who on the National team would start on Italy?

Di Natale or Eddie Johnson?
Pirlo or Bradley?
Balotelli or Altidore?
Chiellini or Gonzalez
Barzagili or Any USA CB
El Shaarwary or Gomez
Abate or Evans
Montolivo or Dempsey?

Lets face it not only does Italy have more depth, they are more talented and more accomplished at just about every position.

Seriously, Miccoli, Totti, Destro, Ogbonna, Poli, Nocerino, Balzeretti, Nesta, all players who would probably start or make the USMNT who are not even on Italy's squad.
 

SharkHawk

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Thanks Si. I'm not referring to just the size and speed. I'm trying to get across the point that this generation has learned the technical skills, but they also have size and speed. For my example, I was referring to a kid who was raised by a national team player who had/has amazing technical ability. I didn't have amazing technical ability, but I could do things with the ball that many kids couldn't. I could play with either foot. I could pass with accuracy on crosses. I could finish. I could bend it and swerve it without difficulty. I could play in the air. I was significantly better than the majority of kids I played with. I was also much bigger and much stronger. My freshman year I was 5'6" and about 150 pounds. I was a little bowling ball, but I had the skills. Then my sophomore year I was 6'1" and about 190. This made a serious difference of course, because I had developed technical abilities as a little small and squat kid, but then sprouted up and had a ridiculous advantage over a lot of guys because I was not just a good technical player, but added the size and speed advantages, plus I was obviously still ambidextrous. BUT.... I was nowhere near many of the kids I see in the youth system now. I wouldn't even be a blip on the radar, but I was a letterman as a freshman and coming from Seattle to the mountains I was significantly more ingrained in soccer culture and how to play.

As for the Italy game.... I stand by the fact that the B team is better than that team in 1990. You can disagree... but I think Nick Rimando is vastly superior to Tony Meola. Kyle Beckerman would have been a nice addition to that team. Landon Donovan is included in the B team as of right now (I'm speaking of the Gold Cup team) and Donovan is better at this age than Wynalda was at any age in my view.

Lalas was a better player than any defender on the B team and Balboa was as well. And the bicycle kick I believe was Marcello off of the crossbar.

Now.... as far as that tournament. Yeah.... they sucked. But the organization of US Soccer at that place was a joke. They had no concept of what was really going on. Even qualifying was spectacular. None of us even dreamed of it as we watched the final in Mexico. But it happened. The expectation against Italy was 5-0. That was what everybody around me said, that is what people on Usenet were predicting. The fact that the US didn't have chances wasn't a surprise. They wanted to weather the onslaught and create an opportunity. They had the opportunity to win. Saying it wasn't close is a bit of a stretch in a 1-0 game that was 3 inches away from being 1-1. That to me means you played pretty even. If you lose 7-0 in an NFL game and you drop a bomb in the endzone in the 4th quarter, then I'd say it was a close game and that you almost won, whether or not the stats showed the other team marching up and down the field. You did enough to win. The US did enough to win that game in my view, and by all rights they had as much business even playing that game as Cameroon did against Argentina. ;) My friend from Argentina still claims that Cameroon spent the whole game kicking Maradona in his shin splint and broke his tibia lengthwise and he had "seen proof". Delusional! That game will live with me forever.

I think you are right on the technical aspect and its importance. The shot by Altidore on the free kick (wicked) is just one shot, but it is one that nobody on that 1990 team (except for maybe Ramos) could have put home in such a fashion. Things are getting better. I appreciate so much the dedication you have and your willingness to coach and help kids in the youth system improve and love the game. From the inside it's not always easy to see growth, because we see the deficiencies. Now that I have left and am strictly an outside observer (and do NOTHING... no scouting, no recommendations, no giving tips to coaches and schools on players).

I am totally 100% an observer. And I see tremendous growth. Are we where we want to be? No. Are we on the right track? Way more so than 25 years ago. The team that qualified for 1990 was very strange. They basically showed up and played together only during their games, and TRIED to get a few practices in. None of them really knew each other. Thank goodness for Tab Ramos for being such an amazing leader. But they were flying in from everywhere and really had no support compared to now. Things are changing for the positive. It's not happening fast enough, but it is happening. When we now have guys that are 6' and 200 with technical ability is encouraging, because they are much better options than the likes of Mike Burns, Frank Clopas, Ernie Stewart, Cobi Jones, etc. Those guys were good and did what they did very well, but the strength and speed and such is important as a step to putting our best athletes on the field.
 

SharkHawk

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knownone":27oqjeh7 said:
Who has the USMNT beat in an actual competitive match, that is at or near Italy's quality? Panama? Costa Rica?

A friendly is not an accurate barometer of how good we are end of discussion. The LA Galaxy beat Juventus 3-1 in a competitive friendly, which one of those teams has more quality players?

I've got a question for you who on the National team would start on Italy?

Di Natale or Eddie Johnson?
Pirlo or Bradley?
Balotelli or Altidore?
Chiellini or Gonzalez
Barzagili or Any USA CB
El Shaarwary or Gomez
Abate or Evans
Montolivo or Dempsey?

Lets face it not only does Italy have more depth, they are more talented and more accomplished at just about every position.

Seriously, Miccoli, Totti, Destro, Ogbonna, Poli, Nocerino, Balzeretti, Nesta, all players who would probably start or make the USMNT who are not even on Italy's squad.

Hmmm... so we beat Italy head to head, but don't compare because it was a friendly? Did Italy play to win? Just as much as the USA did. Italy soccer is not on the rise. They are dropping. They've regressed more than any "power country" over the last 25 years. Tell me one that has dropped more. The USA is climbing, and Italy isn't. You can list names and say "better check, better check" but I can do the same back. You honestly don't think a guy like Altidore could play on Italy? Seriously? Which Gomez are you using? You're using Eddie Johnson as a first teamer? Interesting. 1-1 comparisons are much different than 11-11 comparisons. Italy has fallen apart in my view. What does Juventus against the Galaxy have to do with anything, and why say "End of discussion" and then go on and have a discussion if it has ended? I don't know what you're getting at.

Are you really Giuseppi Rossi in disguise? He also thinks Italy is the way to go... but I don't see it. Congrats to him, but it hasn't quite worked out like he'd hoped, except for that nice goal he got after entering against the US prior to blowing out his knee for about the fifth time. But I'm glad he took so much glee in prancing around and celebrating the team that "snubbed him". Unfortunately, he seems to forget that he snubbed the USA and got all crybaby about the fact that the USA didn't hound him endlessly. He had no interest in playing for the USA, even though he grew up here, and then acted like he was exacting revenge by getting a goal against us. Hopefully that's a good highlight for his life. Good on him... but I'd take the USA against Italy in any tourney game right now and feel very comfortable putting my money behind it.
 
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