Pacquiao / Rios?

The perfect match-up of good vs, evil. Should be a war but unsure of Manny's training, motivation and how he will come off the faceplant suffered against JMM. Common sense tells me Manny's feet and quicker hands should be the difference, but Rios is a machine and his youth might get him the win.

Thoughts?

Hopefully his head is in the game. The crazy thing about the last Marquez fight-that was the best he looked against him. I was watching it at the Mandalay Bay in their closed-circuit banquet room and all the Mexicans were sweating and then BAM! One of the coldest KO's I've seen since Sexy Sergio on Paul Williams

Agreed Glove. I've been a JMM fan for more years than I can remember. Always felt bad for him, having to wait his turn after JCC, then being derailed by the trilogy of Barrera and Morales.

Finally, Marquez had this great opportunity to win that Mexican love. Only to be knocked down 3 times in the opening rd vs. Pacman. In true warrior fashion, JMM went on to win nearly all of the following rds...but, IMO, got burned. Hard to award a fighter a title after having his nose broken all over the place and knocked down 3 times in an opening rd. But not many fighters could do what JMM did that night.

The scoring in the next 2 JMM/ Pac fights were also rather suspect, but not terrible either. When 4 rolled around, I felt it was too late for Marquez. Pac clearly took his power north with him and Marquez was better suited for 132. Which showed as he struggled against Juan Diaz before pulling out the big KO. In 4, Pacquiao looked as good as ever and while Marquez was having his moments, you could feel the fight slipping away from him. But then...BAM! Faceplant and every neighbor I had within a mile knew Marquez had just beaten Paquiao. ; )

Time for Marquez to hang 'em up. Tonite we see if the same should be said for the Pac man. Love the guy and hope he busts Rios up. Should he bust Rios up, I see no reason for him to retire. He should go get that title back from Bradley, then finally sign a deal with Mayweather. Not for the win. I don't see that as reality, but an additional $50 mil (US) would really help his portfolio, lol.

Wow! What a showing by the Pacman. Pimp-slapped Rios like Dawg on Beaver. Humiliating is too king of a word. Nice job Manny!

HawkWow":32hln8vc said:

Wow! What a showing by the Pacman. Pimp-slapped Rios like Dawg on Beaver. Humiliating is too king of a word. Nice job Manny!

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Man, I was ecstatic to see Manny fighting on the outside more and actually moving side to side. A smarter fighter would've punished him though because he mainly moved to his right. I agree with Mayweather winning handily. I used to think it was close, like 55-45 Mayweather, but he's too smart and Pac is slowing down. A fight I still have to see though

Totally agree. Rios showed vs. Alvarado he gets sucked into waiting too long to get off. The kid has some skills that Garcia is not capitalizing on. Thinking he's going to turn Rios into counter-puncher-first is a huge, tactical error, IMO. Roach just implemented the "best defense is a good offense" strategy and Garcia / Rios had no plan B. There was a time I was a huge Garcia fan (back when he fought and was Roberto, not Robert) but for a fairly good guy, he's making a living exploiting the punkass side of his own stable. I guess it sells because Alvarado should have got Pac, not Rios. Still, happy to see Pac making both Margarito and now Rios, pay for being asshats. And questions will now start surrounding Garcia.

Guess camp Pac is talking about a 5th with Marquez. Might be a good strategy as Bradley seems to have picked his game up since the robbery vs. Pac and Pac and JMM will always bring out the best in each other, so I'm good with a 5th.

You keeping an eye on Triple G (Golovkin)? My new fav fighter and boxing's future, IMO. Reminds me a lot of (the great) Kostya Tszyu.

HawkWow":2jtbbhq5 said:

Totally agree. Rios showed vs. Alvarado he gets sucked into waiting too long to get off. The kid has some skills that Garcia is not capitalizing on. Thinking he's going to turn Rios into counter-puncher-first is a huge, tactical error, IMO. Roach just implemented the "best defense is a good offense" strategy and Garcia / Rios had no plan B. There was a time I was a huge Garcia fan (back when he fought and was Roberto, not Robert) but for a fairly good guy, he's making a living exploiting the punkass side of his own stable. I guess it sells because Alvarado should have got Pac, not Rios. Still, happy to see Pac making both Margarito and now Rios, pay for being asshats. And questions will now start surrounding Garcia.

Guess camp Pac is talking about a 5th with Marquez. Might be a good strategy as Bradley seems to have picked his game up since the robbery vs. Pac and Pac and JMM will always bring out the best in each other, so I'm good with a 5th.

You keeping an eye on Triple G (Golovkin)? My new fav fighter and boxing's future, IMO. Reminds me a lot of (the great) Kostya Tszyu.

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Haven't watched much of Golovkin but I'll check him out. My favorite young fighter right now is Jose Benavidez Jr. Been following the kid since he was 17. His brother David is also pretty good and much bigger than Jr. Funny thing about Jr, I showed my brother and friends some clips of him fighting while we were in the hotel in Dallas. We head over to the Gaylord-Texan hotel where all the fighters were staying and run into him. Got to take a couple pics and chat it up with him and his dad (trainer) for a bit.

Great story...and call on Benavidez. I like the kid a ton but fear they are protecting him (and his hands) too much. That WW division is a bitch to make noise in as it is. 10 deep and not much separating the top of that 10 from the bottom part of that 10. But it's always been this way. Grow or shrink would be my advice to 140-147 pounders. LOL.

IIRC, Jose' has had at least 1 surgery on his hand. That will be problematic as he tries to climb that WW ladder. Really, only Bradley has been able to get away without having KO power. I wish him well. I've had 5 such surgeries and that...well, that was that.

Great talking boxing with you, Glove. We are a dying breed, but only for the moment. MMA is fine and dandy, but boxing is time tested and will never die off completely. Despite the rumors and certain promoters trying to see that end. ^&%$ Dana White. His BS will be his own undoing.

Shoot, I forgot to look for this thread a couple weeks ago. Better late than never, I suppose. Manny looked really good, and Rios didn't look like he belongs at this level. Just too slow. We all know Manny can fight in flurries, but this looked like he was just sparring. Still, I would have liked to have seen him finish, just for fun. He coasted from the 8th on again. Same thing as Margarito and Bradley. The one thing though I was hoping to learn was if Manny had a chin anymore, and Rios just was never able to connect with anything, so we still don't know.

I don't want to see another Marquez fight. 5 is too many. Heck, 4 was too many. Marquez won #3. It is just a bad fight for Manny to take. Nothing to gain.

I almost stopped watching boxing after the Bradley fight. Worst decision that I have been alive for. How can you land three punches in a round, get hit 32 times, and win that round on all three scorecards? I don't want to see that fight again either, unless Manny is going to knock him out somehow.

But Manny has to choose one of the two to get to Mayweather. Hopefully May can stay out of jail long enough for it to happen. We all lost by not seeing that fight two years ago.

As for MMA, it will be all but gone in five years. It is just a bad product. It is very rare that a fight is exciting. It was really cool when you used to see contrasting styles. You used to see a Brazilian fighter against a brawler or a karate fighter or a kickboxer, and it was cool to see which style would prevail. Nowadays you just see hybrids of all the styles going against each other, and it just results in dirty boxing and sloppy ground game, time after time. The sweet science, it is not.

As a sidenote, coolest boxing experience of my life was being in the Philippines for the Pacquiao/Cotto fight. Literally the WHOLE country watches. Imagine NYC with twice the population density, but not a car on the road. There is no crime that day because even all of the thieves are watching. Just something we don't get to witness here. It will be sad there when he is done, he is just so much more popular than anyone else, and Donaire never got to the next level. Hopefully he can take down Marquez or Bradley, then knock out Mayweather, and walk away on top.

Mayweather...I don't know about that one.

dontbelikethat":1lv8zm82 said:

Mayweather...I don't know about that one.

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Im of the opinion Mayweather's Philly Shell stance would be disastrous against a south paw of even moderate power let alone someone with with PacMans power and skill.

Shy.

Pac's power is diminishing as I type. Few fighters bring their power North with them the way Pac did (when he went to 47) and while a huge fan, I do believe there may have been some PEDS involved. The only advantage Pac would have against an orthodox fighter, as odd as it sounds to describe Floyd as orthodox, would be the straight right and Mayweather is the king of defending against such punches with that boring, but effective, shoulder roll he's patented.

Hate Mayweather, love Pacquio, but I think that fight would end up looking like 116-110 Mayweather. And in nauseatingly boring fashion. If in Vegas, Pac would have a little bit going for him because he would (have to) be the aggressor. But that aggression has to be effective aggression and Floyd just don't get hit.

Tical21":1uj9b043 said:

Shoot, I forgot to look for this thread a couple weeks ago. Better late than never, I suppose. Manny looked really good, and Rios didn't look like he belongs at this level. Just too slow. We all know Manny can fight in flurries, but this looked like he was just sparring. Still, I would have liked to have seen him finish, just for fun. He coasted from the 8th on again. Same thing as Margarito and Bradley. The one thing though I was hoping to learn was if Manny had a chin anymore, and Rios just was never able to connect with anything, so we still don't know.

I don't want to see another Marquez fight. 5 is too many. Heck, 4 was too many. Marquez won #3. It is just a bad fight for Manny to take. Nothing to gain.

I almost stopped watching boxing after the Bradley fight. Worst decision that I have been alive for. How can you land three punches in a round, get hit 32 times, and win that round on all three scorecards? I don't want to see that fight again either, unless Manny is going to knock him out somehow.

But Manny has to choose one of the two to get to Mayweather. Hopefully May can stay out of jail long enough for it to happen. We all lost by not seeing that fight two years ago.

As for MMA, it will be all but gone in five years. It is just a bad product. It is very rare that a fight is exciting. It was really cool when you used to see contrasting styles. You used to see a Brazilian fighter against a brawler or a karate fighter or a kickboxer, and it was cool to see which style would prevail. Nowadays you just see hybrids of all the styles going against each other, and it just results in dirty boxing and sloppy ground game, time after time. The sweet science, it is not.

As a sidenote, coolest boxing experience of my life was being in the Philippines for the Pacquiao/Cotto fight. Literally the WHOLE country watches. Imagine NYC with twice the population density, but not a car on the road. There is no crime that day because even all of the thieves are watching. Just something we don't get to witness here. It will be sad there when he is done, he is just so much more popular than anyone else, and Donaire never got to the next level. Hopefully he can take down Marquez or Bradley, then knock out Mayweather, and walk away on top.

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I could watch Pac and JMM go 10 times and I'd pay money to sit ringside for each. Marquez should have won the 1st fight as well, despite the 3 1st rd KDs. An argument could be made that he won all 4.

These guys just bring out the best in each other and join historical match-ups like Morales-Barerra and Ward-Gatti (etc) as all timers. The only thing I don't like about it is I seriously think Marquez should hang 'em up. I keep waiting for age to catch up with him, we saw some of it against Bradley. And while I said above that an argument could be made that JMM won all 4 fights (and he's one of my all time favorite fighters), I'd take Pacquiao to win the next.

BTW, other than our slight disagreement on Pac JMM, loved your post. In the early-mid 90s, I had friends that were working with Luisito Espinoza. Espinoza was Pacman before the Pacman over there. I traveled with them and watched him beat Caesar Soto in Manila. The following day, we all toured that arena out in Queson (sp?) city where Ali / Frazier fought. I'm pissed I can't recall the name of such a historic arena...I could google it, but you likely know anyway.

I really didn't care for the PI, though. We were over there twice and did some diving in Boracay. That I liked but Manila reminded me too much of Tijuana. In fact, the whole country felt more Hispanic than Asian. I guess the Spaniards can be blamed for that (?). We also went to a town called Angeles...and that was..well, for another type of forum. LOL..oh, what was cool about that uh...place..is we met Dennis Rodman's dad there (with Frikin Leon Spinks)! Rodman's dad had like 50 kids, we were told. Crazy place not for the feint hearted nor politically correct.

Mayweather vs. Pacman would be one for the ages though. I would definitely purchase pay per view for that one.

HawkWow":3iem9dzf said:

Pac's power is diminishing as I type. Few fighters bring their power North with them the way Pac did (when he went to 47) and while a huge fan, I do believe there may have been some PEDS involved. The only advantage Pac would have against an orthodox fighter, as odd as it sounds to describe Floyd as orthodox, would be the straight right and Mayweather is the king of defending against such punches with that boring, but effective, shoulder roll he's patented.

Hate Mayweather, love Pacquio, but I think that fight would end up looking like 116-110 Mayweather. And in nauseatingly boring fashion. If in Vegas, Pac would have a little bit going for him because he would (have to) be the aggressor. But that aggression has to be effective aggression and Floyd just don't get hit.

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With Maywether practically standing sideways, anything coming frow a southpaws left hand is going to land flush to the torso or face. I saw Maywether fight a south paw once way before I knew who he was. I only remember the wierd stance. The dude was landing straigt lefts at will and bloodied his face with little love taps and my thought at the time was "A lefty with power would just kill this guy."

Shy.

I enjoy talking boxing, so please consider my retorts discussion, not argument.

1) Pac's power is vastly over rated (by the GP) He's not shown power since KOing the vastly over rated Ricky Hatton over 4 years ago. And Hatton walked straight into the punch, his momentum adding to the impact.

2) Pac has faced some of the worlds best, some past their prime (DLH) and some tailor made. Guys like Barerra, Morales and Marquez have good defenses, but still, they are aggressors and fight off the front foot.

3) Pacman, in the bulk of his fights, has fought just 1 fighter that was a defensive fighter. That was Bradley (who has since become more aggressive) and Pac lost that fight. Yes, Iknow he shouldn't have, but he let the powder punching Bradley stay in the fight and it cost him.

4) Mayweather makes Bradley look sloppy, compared defensively. I do not recall the lefty you refer to that gave Maywehter the problems you describe. But believe me when I tell you bro....Manny is tailor made for a slick counter puncher like Floyd (God, I'm making myself sick talking good about Mayweather). That "sideways stance" you mention is why he is undefeated. His shoulder roll is masterful, and seldom will you see him absorb more than 50% of any single punch.

5) Southpaws have very little advantage over a seasoned orthodox pro. The biggest being rightys don't see many leftys but leftys see many rightys.

But a righty is positioned to land with power, against a southpaw, almost non-stop (If you fight, the next time you face a lefty, feint the jab, throw the straight right. It will be there). Pacquiao will look to throw a similar straight right at Mayweather, but that will be countered by that damn shoulder roll and the one thing that really sets Mayweather above the field, is his uncanny ability to space himself to his own advantage and to his opponents disadvantage.

6) Mayweather often baits his opponents by lowering his left when he throws his right. He will do this 3, 4, 5 times while staying out of harms way, quick to get back to his back foot. The opponent starts getting comfortable seeing this, and strategizes...(and Floyd knows his plan before he does) the next thing you know, they make their move (having to lunge just a little to get there)... that's when Floyd steps out and comes over the top (of that lunging straight right) with the hard left cross. And the announcers pee themselves every time. :/

Manny does his fair share of lunging (anyway) and this won't bode well against Floyd. Pacman only knows one method of fighting and it's why I love the guy. He is a volume puncher that comes forward. This my man, will play right into Mayweather's hands. Pac is no better than Marquez, in fact, IMO, not quite as good. Mayweather beat Marquez with ease and how I hated that match to begin with. :/

Should it miraculously happen, please don't buy this fight. Floyd does not deserve your money. And if you have to bet... parlay the over while betting Floyd by decision. I've seen this fight 100 x in my head....always with the same outcome and have no clue why Floyd hasn't jumped all over this. "Roids" be damned. It's just bizarre.

I know we're getting way ahead of ourselves, and it isn't ever going to happen, but I don't know that I agree with your analysis. Clean, deliberate fighters usually struggle mightily with Pacquiao. I'm a southpaw, and in my very, very limited experience, I found that a lot of time, the most important factor in fighting a righty was effectiveness of the lead hand. I don't see it as a huge strength for either one of these guys, so I think you're right in that it is going to come down to Mayweather's straight right.

Does Mayweather have the power to keep Pacquiao off of him? I have no doubt that a higher percentage of Mayweather's punches are going to land clean than Manny's. But when Manny is right, and he hasn't been in quite a while, the volume in itself can be overwhelming to a traditional counterpuncher. People bring up Marquez, but he isn't a traditional counterpuncher. He works a lot in the mud. Don't talk to me about Bradley. Pacquiao won at least 9 rounds, but you could easily give him 11-12.

I still think Manny has power. He rocked Marquez, and could have knocked Margarito, Moseley and Rios silly if he didn't let up. Does he have put you to sleep power? Probably not, but that is really rare at that weight.

Three years ago, I would have been extremely confident in Manny being too busy for Mayweather. But Manny has slowed down. His flurries don't happen as often, and they don't last for as long. And he takes rounds off. He always lunged, but his lunges seem to leave him open just a bit longer now. It is setup for Mayweather to pick and choose his shots. And Manny, god love him, doesn't have a plan B when plan A isn't working.

For Manny to win, he's going to have to throw, throw, throw, and eat a bunch of shots. I just don't know that he has that in him anymore.

Maywether still ducking Paq. I don't know how else to view this other than he's still scared of Pacman. The only way this fight happens is when Pac gets too old. http://ph.sports.yahoo.com/news/manny-p ... 03535.html

Shy

Tical21":wpeuc1ud said:

I know we're getting way ahead of ourselves, and it isn't ever going to happen, but I don't know that I agree with your analysis. Clean, deliberate fighters usually struggle mightily with Pacquiao. I'm a southpaw, and in my very, very limited experience, I found that a lot of time, the most important factor in fighting a righty was effectiveness of the lead hand. I don't see it as a huge strength for either one of these guys, so I think you're right in that it is going to come down to Mayweather's straight right.

Does Mayweather have the power to keep Pacquiao off of him? I have no doubt that a higher percentage of Mayweather's punches are going to land clean than Manny's. But when Manny is right, and he hasn't been in quite a while, the volume in itself can be overwhelming to a traditional counterpuncher. People bring up Marquez, but he isn't a traditional counterpuncher. He works a lot in the mud. Don't talk to me about Bradley. Pacquiao won at least 9 rounds, but you could easily give him 11-12.

I still think Manny has power. He rocked Marquez, and could have knocked Margarito, Moseley and Rios silly if he didn't let up. Does he have put you to sleep power? Probably not, but that is really rare at that weight.

Three years ago, I would have been extremely confident in Manny being too busy for Mayweather. But Manny has slowed down. His flurries don't happen as often, and they don't last for as long. And he takes rounds off. He always lunged, but his lunges seem to leave him open just a bit longer now. It is setup for Mayweather to pick and choose his shots. And Manny, god love him, doesn't have a plan B when plan A isn't working.

For Manny to win, he's going to have to throw, throw, throw, and eat a bunch of shots. I just don't know that he has that in him anymore.

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Lots of good points, good questions. I agree that had the fight went off 3 years ago, it may have went much differently (than I Project it would go today). I have a hard time ever saying a negative word about Manny, but compared to a guy like..let's say Trinidad, Manny has been quite selective in choosing opponents. Margarito was lucky to even have a license and Mosley, like DLH, Barerra and Morales, was just old. Take JMM away from the picture and you have Hatton, who was a joke to begin with...and I loved seeing him get his punkass knocked out after the shit he pulled on Kostya Tsyzu in England, then you have Joshua Clottey who was more bent on getting Manny's autograph than he was fighting him...his purse should have been held, IMO.

The most impressive performance of Manny's career, IMO, was his one sided win over Cotto. Cotto fought Floyd as well as anyone has, but Mayweather's defense makes Cotto look like he don't have one.

You ask if Mayweather has the power to fend Manny off and that's great question due to the fact we seldom see Floyd committ to any single punch. He's more Roy Jones than I would like for him to be, but if you are looking at a boxer...and not a fighter, they don't get much better than Mayweather. The fact I can say that makes me feel like I am really maturing. My favorite fighters have been the Durans and Trinidads, Hearns and Barerras. Light years from what I have to see come from Floyd in a boxing ring. Aside from a great night against my boy Diego Corrales, Floyd generally makes me sick.