Standard of the MLS?

Ok, I have a genuine question, no offence is intended. I was at the Sounders-Vancouver game 2 weeks ago, the first MLS game I have ever seen (even on TV). I know the Sounders played badly, but I was shocked by the standard of the football. The players seemed reasonably proficient technically, but they seemed to have no real idea how to play the game. Off-the-ball movement was awful. The Sounders seemed to have no idea how to achieve width. Wrong options were taken, too many touches in possession and the ball didn't move quickly enough, passes were far too late, when confronted with a high line and no pressure on the ball the Sounders were completely unable to take advantage and didn't even seem to know how to do it, etc. I was blown away by the support, but not by what was on the park. I would have put it at sub-Championship level. I'. Interested to know whether I saw an aberration or whether that is representative of the standard?

Just depends- there's some good teams and some real dross, same as the Championship (I think the Championship standard is overrated as hell though, but a hard league to get out of). That was the worst Sounders game I had ever been to with regards to both entertainment and creativity so I wouldn't base it on one game.

I'd say it's on a Championship/ upper SPL level. You got to bear in mind that whilst there is good players, it is also a salary cap league and so teams have to balance the books by having cheap/crap squad/young players to pad out their squads unlike in England. It's getting better every year though and has just signed a new huge tv deal that should see the cap go up and a 4th DP (who doesn't count against the cap) added.

This will take a beating here... but you're spot on. the quality is quite poor, and I'd suggest a step below the English champsionship. Its the why that I find discouraging. Many would say its just too hard to compete for top players. While that may be true in comparison to the major leagues of Europe, its no excuse to be played off by Mexican league teams on a constant basis. Its less about the current players and more about the structure they grew up in. Sorry if this isnt to the heart of the thread, but I figured I'd add.

This nation's approach to development has been hindered over the last 30 years by its incessant needs to integrate the qualities of its culture. Soccer players here have been drilled (and drilled and drilled). The focus has been on persistence, regimented discipline, work ethic. Lines, lines, and lines. with lots of cones. Alot of this was simply due to not having experienced coaches. This impacted players development of natural skill, creativity and a philosophical understanding of the game.

Only in the last 5-8 years have we seen it change. youth academies have abandoned tactical, regimented development and changed 180 degrees. the focus is now on creativity, skill development and free flowing play. No more line after line of passing and dribbling, but activities that encourage players to sort it out. 4 cones, 12 players, 5v5 +2.... here's a couple of objectives to challenge your play... now "go". Accents, origins and philosophies are as diverse and rich in a boot room in KC, Seattle or Chicago as they are in Europe.

At a recent coaching syposium (and i imagine this conversation takes place at nearly every club meeting in the country over the last 4-5 years) the natural concern turns to why this nation hasnt developed a "star" player yet. Donovan, Dempsey, Bradley all very good, but known more for their industry than their flair. Essentially, the US wants to be Germany. Its not a reflection of Klinsmann, its why he's here. Reyna is the nation's youth director, and plied his trade in Germany for a number of years before moving to Scotland (and then the PL). hard working but creative. Technical but suffocatingly disciplined and tactical. How can we encourage that play in the academies. Can we develop not just Schweinstigers and Khedira's but Goetze's and Ozil's as well. or more succintly, why cant we build a Rooney, Gerrard, Scholes, Wilshere, Sterling... (and so on down to Michael Owen). We've developed plenty of Hendersons and Ox-Chamberlains.

The comparison fell to basketball... and the similarities are rather poignant. Basktball players develop in a far less structured environment at a younger age than soccer players do. Many suggest that environment (the opportunities to just go "play" without constant coaching) reflects similarly on how footballers develop across the world. Strong youth academies across Europe atually emphasize a lack of structure, force players into touches and let their natural abilities develop. Many dont even keep score in matches until 16. This is something this nation is trying to adopt, but is finding difficult. parents love games, scores, trophies, and unfortunately that guides training and team development. In truth, spending time with Developmental Academies not associated with MLS teams, they are struggling to maintain their own philosophy. A lack of results on the scoreline indicate failure, which is the wrong approach. They are already feeling the pressure to win, because the academy structure savagely competes for the best players. This leaves the players in power, and waters down the product.

Anyways, I see the MLS as a strong reflection of that. Its not just in the players, These coaches developed in the same manner. Porter with Timbers and Vermes with Sporting seem to have a right minded approach to development, but both are now feeling the pinch of results.

If the MLS academies stay true to their philosophies, the products that come out of them will make a major impact on the quality of play in the top league, even if its only a short time before they're snatched up by a top league. It may take a few years, but their is a generation coming. They're winning in Europe. They're getting plucked by European clubs. the process will soon settle to them coming straight through the MLS teams.

Si, great post. As a non-soccer fan, this is one of the things I struggle most with for MLS. I can watch non-US games in the World Cup and appreciate the skill involved, but can't help but notice how inferior MLS games seem. I've never been able to just pick an English, German, or Spanish team to follow though.

1st off. That came was horrible. Technically, and tactically. It wasn't Sounders football. It wasn't good enough. It wasn't acceptable. It was just a disaster. Unfortunate first game.

That being said. Si is is spot on. The league as it stands now is a byproduct of the development of players in our nation. In my opinion we are beginning to see that youth culture change, and are beginning to see the first glimpses of large scale change. Many league veterans are of the "old world", such as the Chad Marshalls, and the Brad Evans'....but the youth coming up in the system is quite different. Even with young players in the league right now you can see the shift is on. Whether its Will Trapp, Harrison Shipp, or Tommy Tompson....you can see the change in how they were developed...even later in the cycle...its had an influence.

One player I'm really interested in watching develope is Aaron Kovar. Signed as a Homegrown player at the start of this season he is a natural left footed player with a bunch of creativity and confidence on the ball. He played left mid through the academy and got a reputation for his service. It appears, from what I've read, that he's getting a look at Left Back for the Sounders....I would imagine he'll be on S2 at the start of next season to further develope the skills needed for that position...Kovar is more of an Leighton Baines type of LB than say a Yedlin (who is essentially Man Utd's Rafael with better hair).


So, I guess Yeah. At this point 30 years of failed youth development have left the product on the pitch in a bad way....but its improving. Each year it gets better.

The American emphasis on development has reached a true turning point. It may be 12-16-20 years before we reap the benefits as a nation...but we're heading in the right direction now.


....Salary cap does come into play though...specifically with the non-americans within the league...but that should be addressed a little bit in the coming years.

The question can be flipped around to England as well. Who are they producing that is world class? The Lampard, Gerrard generation is nearly over but the newer players coming through don't look anywhere near that class.

THE EPL is only of the standard it is due to foreign players on large sums of money, how many of these great players are English? Some good/decent English players are coming through but a lot are hyped up and none appear to be of the standard of 10/20 years ago. America seems to be improving while England is regressing when it comes to player development.

Glasgow Seahawk":31nl33in said:

The question can be flipped around to England as well. Who are they producing that is world class? The Lampard, Gerrard generation is nearly over but the newer players coming through don't look anywhere near that class.

THE EPL is only of the standard it is due to foreign players on large sums of money, how many of these great players are English? Some good/decent English players are coming through but a lot are hyped up and none appear to be of the standard of 10/20 years ago. America seems to be improving while England is regressing when it comes to player development.

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Ross Barkley

Si, thanks for taking the time to type that, and it kind of confirms my feeling, that the players had the ball skill but not the innate understanding of what they should be doing on and off the ball. The Sounders players obviously have developed being told to keep possession, but they did so in front of the Vancouver players. A couple of times they played a very nice cross-field ball, but rather than take the chance to push quickly down that flank they would slow the play down and start playing it round in front of them again. They clearly had no idea when to inject pace.

The wide play was particularly distressing - the wide player had no interest in making a run and his team mate would not make a pass unless it was to his feet when he was stationary. Martins was killing me watching this game - his positioning was awful. I remembered him being pretty mobile, but he didn't look for the ball in the channel. Despite coming to defend, Vancouver's line was held pretty far up the pitch, and their pressure on the ball wasn't great. There were 2 occasions when Martins came in front of a CB, got the ball to feet and laid it back and then span and ran into the channel. Pretty much any amateur I played with would do the same thing - first time ball either clipped over the top or bent round the ccorner into the channel. Basic. Give the forward a chance at least to get in behind. Never came. Those players had the technical ability to play any pass, they just thought that a pass should be played to someone's feet. Ironically, because they couldn't penetrate, they ended up with the ball out wide 60yds from the byeline playing a diagonal high ball up to the attacker, probably the lowest percentage pass you can make.

I spoke after the game with 2 guys who watch Bournemouth, and they were similarly shocked. It did just look like a group of technically-proficient robots who hadn't built up their understanding at a young enough age to have a feel for play that made decisions automatic. Coaching at a young age may help, but I have been coaching kids from 7 to 10 for a couple of years and we find we take kids who want to dribble at kids and do tricks and try to dampen down these habits a bit to get them to play within a team. So it may not.

Glasgow Seahawk":29y5nhgx said:

Just depends- there's some good teams and some real dross, same as the Championship (I think the Championship standard is overrated as hell though, but a hard league to get out of). That was the worst Sounders game I had ever been to with regards to both entertainment and creativity so I wouldn't base it on one game.

I'd say it's on a Championship/ upper SPL level. You got to bear in mind that whilst there is good players, it is also a salary cap league and so teams have to balance the books by having cheap/crap squad/young players to pad out their squads unlike in England. It's getting better every year though and has just signed a new huge tv deal that should see the cap go up and a 4th DP (who doesn't count against the cap) added.

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I know the SPL is a fairly poor product, but a half-decent SPL centre midfielder would make the Sounders better (if his team mates) got on the same wavelength as him. He wouldn't be any better in terms of physical or technical ability, but knowing when to play the ball in behind, when to play the ball early, when to commit to a run passed the forward player,most of all where to move after you pass in order to put pressure on the defence, these all things that were missing and would help. SPL players play at a pace that often is faster than the MLS but can still do these things.

cdallan":3jscxay0 said:

Si, thanks for taking the time to type that, and it kind of confirms my feeling, that the players had the ball skill but not the innate understanding of what they should be doing on and off the ball. The Sounders players obviously have developed being told to keep possession, but they did so in front of the Vancouver players. A couple of times they played a very nice cross-field ball, but rather than take the chance to push quickly down that flank they would slow the play down and start playing it round in front of them again. They clearly had no idea when to inject pace.

The wide play was particularly distressing - the wide player had no interest in making a run and his team mate would not make a pass unless it was to his feet when he was stationary. Martins was killing me watching this game - his positioning was awful. I remembered him being pretty mobile, but he didn't look for the ball in the channel. Despite coming to defend, Vancouver's line was held pretty far up the pitch, and their pressure on the ball wasn't great. There were 2 occasions when Martins came in front of a CB, got the ball to feet and laid it back and then span and ran into the channel. Pretty much any amateur I played with would do the same thing - first time ball either clipped over the top or bent round the ccorner into the channel. Basic. Give the forward a chance at least to get in behind. Never came. Those players had the technical ability to play any pass, they just thought that a pass should be played to someone's feet. Ironically, because they couldn't penetrate, they ended up with the ball out wide 60yds from the byeline playing a diagonal high ball up to the attacker, probably the lowest percentage pass you can make.

I spoke after the game with 2 guys who watch Bournemouth, and they were similarly shocked. It did just look like a group of technically-proficient robots who hadn't built up their understanding at a young enough age to have a feel for play that made decisions automatic. Coaching at a young age may help, but I have been coaching kids from 7 to 10 for a couple of years and we find we take kids who want to dribble at kids and do tricks and try to dampen down these habits a bit to get them to play within a team. So it may not.

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The most difficult thing we find developing in players here is that innate understanding of space and the conscious ability to move (move, move) off the ball. Even at our highest youth levels the most active participant is the player on the ball. And while their are some genuinely talented players on the ball everyone else are simple voyeurs to the game.

Our sessions focus primarily on pattern play then play in a defined space and see if the patterns develop. What we see time again is a player will make a run to get a ball. Get the ball. Pass the ball. Everyone is is watching. Once the pass is made he is watching. We push for running defenders out of space (in so much as I run sessions where certain players can't receive passes...just run)

Its my belief that the less structure in a session the more creative a player will HAVE to be if he wants the ball. The philosophy being "be more impactful off the ball than on it". In working with coaches from Europe they push the same thing.

But we see that genuine lack of fluid movement, 3-4 player interactions while moving the ball forward (and not just simple possession through unmarked defenders). And its seen all the way through to the top league.

As for England... I see a nice generation or two coming through....with Barkley, Shaw, Sterling, Chambers, Henderson backed by kids like Ward-Prowse, Rossiter etc. But these things are generational. Germany and Spain (Brazil, the Dutch and Belgians, Argentina) have obviously peaked in an era where English players just didn't come through...highlighted in the difference between the three leagues showcased in the CL.

I love the new Champs League reserve games that play before the top team game. Great look at the next generation of players.

Klinsmann was the biggest reason we didn't advance further. While the OP's observations on the SEa-Van game were spot on, the USMNT was a lot better team than he allowed it to be. He was trying so hard to make them play not to lose that he refused to allow them to win. This team had some offensive skills he kept them from exploiting.

A lot is made in Europe about creativity. The Americans have their own style and what was frustrating about this World Cup is if we hadn't brought in Klinsmann to squelch it, we would have seen it work. Now the talent level will be gone next time around and a fantastic opportunity was wasted.

Personally, I think Klinsmann is an arrogant SOB who looks down on the U.S. and should never be allowed to coach us again.

cdallan":2n2zzml8 said:

Glasgow Seahawk":2n2zzml8 said:

Just depends- there's some good teams and some real dross, same as the Championship (I think the Championship standard is overrated as hell though, but a hard league to get out of). That was the worst Sounders game I had ever been to with regards to both entertainment and creativity so I wouldn't base it on one game.

I'd say it's on a Championship/ upper SPL level. You got to bear in mind that whilst there is good players, it is also a salary cap league and so teams have to balance the books by having cheap/crap squad/young players to pad out their squads unlike in England. It's getting better every year though and has just signed a new huge tv deal that should see the cap go up and a 4th DP (who doesn't count against the cap) added.

Click to expand...

I know the SPL is a fairly poor product, but a half-decent SPL centre midfielder would make the Sounders better (if his team mates) got on the same wavelength as him. He wouldn't be any better in terms of physical or technical ability, but knowing when to play the ball in behind, when to play the ball early, when to commit to a run passed the forward player,most of all where to move after you pass in order to put pressure on the defence, these all things that were missing and would help. SPL players play at a pace that often is faster than the MLS but can still do these things.

Click to expand...

Probably, we'll never know though as Scottish players seem to fail to settle anywhere that doesn't have Tennents lager. I cringe at Barry Robson getting homesick in Vancouver, your probably going to find as many Scots there than anywhere else outside of Scotland. Ryan Gauld is my big hope. I worry that the resignation of Mark Wotte will set Scotland back and allow the dinosaurs like Maurice Malpas (I coach the way I was back in my day) to win.

I think MLS biggest weakness is producing wingers. Guys like James Forrest would look world class in that league. Yedlin looks the closest to it and I think he becomes a winger in England.

Watch tonights game and see if it is any better. LA have to come out and attack so should be good to watch.

SalishHawkFan":1f3ceng7 said:

Klinsmann was the biggest reason we didn't advance further. While the OP's observations on the SEa-Van game were spot on, the USMNT was a lot better team than he allowed it to be. He was trying so hard to make them play not to lose that he refused to allow them to win. This team had some offensive skills he kept them from exploiting.

A lot is made in Europe about creativity. The Americans have their own style and what was frustrating about this World Cup is if we hadn't brought in Klinsmann to squelch it, we would have seen it work. Now the talent level will be gone next time around and a fantastic opportunity was wasted.

Personally, I think Klinsmann is an arrogant SOB who looks down on the U.S. and should never be allowed to coach us again.

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Not sure I fully agree. Before the World Cup, Klinsmann basically said that this was a transition tournament and he was focusing on the future and to settle on the quarter finals. I still think he should have brought Donovan but shit happens.

I like the fact he is giving young players a chance already and I think those American players coming through look the business if they keep developing. I think exciting times are ahead for the U.S.

SalishHawkFan":15tuow3r said:

Klinsmann was the biggest reason we didn't advance further. While the OP's observations on the SEa-Van game were spot on, the USMNT was a lot better team than he allowed it to be. He was trying so hard to make them play not to lose that he refused to allow them to win. This team had some offensive skills he kept them from exploiting.

A lot is made in Europe about creativity. The Americans have their own style and what was frustrating about this World Cup is if we hadn't brought in Klinsmann to squelch it, we would have seen it work. Now the talent level will be gone next time around and a fantastic opportunity was wasted.

Personally, I think Klinsmann is an arrogant SOB who looks down on the U.S. and should never be allowed to coach us again.

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This is about as effectively incorrect of a statement on US soccer as possible (outside of the "if our real athletes from NBA and NFL played we would dominate)

Our " style" has never produced anything better than one round of 8...and even then we beat another Concacaf team to get there.

If this nation us to succeed at soccer it needs better players. Klinsmann was brought in to help effect that development

Glasgow Seahawk":3av7nj3g said:

cdallan":3av7nj3g said:

Glasgow Seahawk":3av7nj3g said:

Just depends- there's some good teams and some real dross, same as the Championship (I think the Championship standard is overrated as hell though, but a hard league to get out of). That was the worst Sounders game I had ever been to with regards to both entertainment and creativity so I wouldn't base it on one game.

I'd say it's on a Championship/ upper SPL level. You got to bear in mind that whilst there is good players, it is also a salary cap league and so teams have to balance the books by having cheap/crap squad/young players to pad out their squads unlike in England. It's getting better every year though and has just signed a new huge tv deal that should see the cap go up and a 4th DP (who doesn't count against the cap) added.

Click to expand...

I know the SPL is a fairly poor product, but a half-decent SPL centre midfielder would make the Sounders better (if his team mates) got on the same wavelength as him. He wouldn't be any better in terms of physical or technical ability, but knowing when to play the ball in behind, when to play the ball early, when to commit to a run passed the forward player,most of all where to move after you pass in order to put pressure on the defence, these all things that were missing and would help. SPL players play at a pace that often is faster than the MLS but can still do these things.

Click to expand...

Probably, we'll never know though as Scottish players seem to fail to settle anywhere that doesn't have Tennents lager. I cringe at Barry Robson getting homesick in Vancouver, your probably going to find as many Scots there than anywhere else outside of Scotland. Ryan Gauld is my big hope. I worry that the resignation of Mark Wotte will set Scotland back and allow the dinosaurs like Maurice Malpas (I coach the way I was back in my day) to win.

I think MLS biggest weakness is producing wingers. Guys like James Forrest would look world class in that league. Yedlin looks the closest to it and I think he becomes a winger in England.

Watch tonights game and see if it is any better. LA have to come out and attack so should be good to watch.

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I'm not sure what will happen to Gauld now that he is in Portugal, but he's only 18 and getting in the team so he has a chance. I never rated him as highly as my Dundee Utd friends, but he is a good example of what the MLS lacks - a short, skinny 16/17 year old who is not yet physically developed but has a supernatural ability to find space and find others in space.

I see you watch SPL, but obviously not too much as there is no way you could say there is an "upper" and "lower" SPL! It's also funny that despite being poor for a few years there have always been Scottish wingers about who are decent - McGeady,Forrest, McCormack (when he was a winger), Snodgrass, etc. I still can't believe that SFA pettiness meant that McGeady was effectively forced to snub the country of his birth and play for Ireland - this Scottish team could be improved by having him in there.

Would suggest today's Community Shield battle did little to change sentiments.

Nice win though. Smash and grab
Just not typical of the team that is winning the league

cdallan":2z2gpd5e said:

Glasgow Seahawk":2z2gpd5e said:

cdallan":2z2gpd5e said:

Glasgow Seahawk":2z2gpd5e said:

Just depends- there's some good teams and some real dross, same as the Championship (I think the Championship standard is overrated as hell though, but a hard league to get out of). That was the worst Sounders game I had ever been to with regards to both entertainment and creativity so I wouldn't base it on one game.

I'd say it's on a Championship/ upper SPL level. You got to bear in mind that whilst there is good players, it is also a salary cap league and so teams have to balance the books by having cheap/crap squad/young players to pad out their squads unlike in England. It's getting better every year though and has just signed a new huge tv deal that should see the cap go up and a 4th DP (who doesn't count against the cap) added.

Click to expand...

I know the SPL is a fairly poor product, but a half-decent SPL centre midfielder would make the Sounders better (if his team mates) got on the same wavelength as him. He wouldn't be any better in terms of physical or technical ability, but knowing when to play the ball in behind, when to play the ball early, when to commit to a run passed the forward player,most of all where to move after you pass in order to put pressure on the defence, these all things that were missing and would help. SPL players play at a pace that often is faster than the MLS but can still do these things.

Click to expand...

Probably, we'll never know though as Scottish players seem to fail to settle anywhere that doesn't have Tennents lager. I cringe at Barry Robson getting homesick in Vancouver, your probably going to find as many Scots there than anywhere else outside of Scotland. Ryan Gauld is my big hope. I worry that the resignation of Mark Wotte will set Scotland back and allow the dinosaurs like Maurice Malpas (I coach the way I was back in my day) to win.

I think MLS biggest weakness is producing wingers. Guys like James Forrest would look world class in that league. Yedlin looks the closest to it and I think he becomes a winger in England.

Watch tonights game and see if it is any better. LA have to come out and attack so should be good to watch.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what will happen to Gauld now that he is in Portugal, but he's only 18 and getting in the team so he has a chance. I never rated him as highly as my Dundee Utd friends, but he is a good example of what the MLS lacks - a short, skinny 16/17 year old who is not yet physically developed but has a supernatural ability to find space and find others in space.

I see you watch SPL, but obviously not too much as there is no way you could say there is an "upper" and "lower" SPL! It's also funny that despite being poor for a few years there have always been Scottish wingers about who are decent - McGeady,Forrest, McCormack (when he was a winger), Snodgrass, etc. I still can't believe that SFA pettiness meant that McGeady was effectively forced to snub the country of his birth and play for Ireland - this Scottish team could be improved by having him in there.

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Well maybe not the past couple of years due to all the freakiness that has happened but generally rank Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, (Hearts, Rangers barring the past few years, but at least Hearts at the moment are better than a lot of SPL teams) as upper compared to the Partick Thistle's, Ross County and St Mirren's.

As a Celtic fan, Mcgeady was an idiot for picking Ireland, same with McCarthy. They are as Irish as me and both were born and raised in Glasgow. Still think Scotland are on the right path with Strachan, could have qualified for a tournament earlier if not for the disaster that was Craig Levein and his 4-6-0 stuff.

Love Gauld...a more developed and polished player than this Odegaard kid getting all the press in Norway.

Ryan represents what not just the MLS but American soccer in general lack...an instinctive, aware player who controls the play with his movement off the ball, in and out of spaces. Ward-Prowse at Southampton is similar. California native Marc Pekosi at Liverpool is similar in attributes, but a horror tackle left him out for a year. Would love to hear his name with the U21s soon (club or country)