More money for education didn't fix it

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More money for education didn't fix it
Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:05 pm
  • First off, let's not make this a political discussion; I'm posting this link solely for the fact that it demonstrates that we put a LOT more money into the lower tier of public education and it didn't help. Keep this a lounge-and-rule-friendly thread, please.

    I've believed for years, and more evidence than ever now supports it, that the problem isn't with how much money we spend but rather what we're doing with said money. I think it's useless to keep throwing good money after bad with the current public education system we have in our beloved U.S. of A.

    The question is, if we could blow it up completely and build a new one from scratch, what should we recreate it as?

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  • Most school districts in the high population / inner-city areas are so Top Heavy now it's ridiculous. For every dollar spent, how much makes it into the class room? Many school districts in the Southwest also have ELL (English language learner) divisions to pay for due to a high number of immigrant students. I could go on and on, but it's amazing to me how a few text books and caring teacher was all that was need not that long ago (well it that depends on what you call long ago) to get the job done. I can't believe how dumbed down some of these kids are today. But let's be honest, in some cases society and parenting plays a part in that as well.

    What will work? I've seen programs that put more control of the money into the hands of the principles / administration of the individual public schools have success in improving overall scores. Not sure this is a national answer, and likely simpleton, but I've seen improved results even in low-income areas with this "empowerment school" philosophy. It seems to me that if you put more of those dollars into the hands of the individual schools, and created a healthy competitive environment within the districts there would be improvement. But then, we wouldn't need as many top level administrators so why would they want that?

    Anyways, what the hell do I know. :229031_shrug:
    Last edited by Anguish on Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
    Reason: Edited out the political stuff.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:07 am
  • Different areas have different needs, trying to paint with to broad of a brush, teaching to pass tests, more worried about ratings then kids education, schools doing whatever they need to get federal money in the way they send kids into specialized assistance programs to get that money per student.

    I really think teaching kids the basics and then have secondary programs that are geared to vocational aspects would work better. I mean what's really wrong with grades k - 14. They High School graduates that can't afford regular college can enroll in a vocational or program that will essentially give them an associates. Shoving more information and not necessarily beneficial down kids throats in K - 12 is only making kids more stressed, anti social and rebellious.

    Sure there are many that succeed now, but more and more get left behind and skills needed for careers not developed, with the k - 14 format we would be training on cutting edge jobs for entry level kids that can actually contribute in a short window. the extra 2 years could be based on local Businesses forecast of needs or National and or both.
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  • chris98251 wrote:Different areas have different needs, trying to paint with to broad of a brush, teaching to pass tests, more worried about ratings then kids education, schools doing whatever they need to get federal money in the way they send kids into specialized assistance programs to get that money per student.

    I really think teaching kids the basics and then have secondary programs that are geared to vocational aspects would work better. I mean what's really wrong with grades k - 14. They High School graduates that can't afford regular college can enroll in a vocational or program that will essentially give them an associates. Shoving more information and not necessarily beneficial down kids throats in K - 12 is only making kids more stressed, anti social and rebellious.

    Sure there are many that succeed now, but more and more get left behind and skills needed for careers not developed, with the k - 14 format we would be training on cutting edge jobs for entry level kids that can actually contribute in a short window. the extra 2 years could be based on local Businesses forecast of needs or National and or both.


    A LOT of this. My wife taught elementary school as a sub for 16 years. She went all over LA from Brentwood/Bev. Hills to inner city Crenshaw district. The difference in the areas and the schools is dramatic and a LOT of the blame for kids being uneducated falls squarely on the shoulders of the parents.

    They expect teachers to make up for that deficiency and it will never happen everywhere. Also LAUSD had given less than a 7% raise to their teachers over the last decade, yet they go out and spend multi millions to buy students Ipads.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:51 am
  • Throwing more and more money at our education system will never work, because of one simple fact................student success since the dawn of the first school depends primarily on what happens at home, and not the school.

    We already spend more money per student than any other country. What creates the failures is in the home. THAT'S where we should be focusing our resources and energy, trying to create stable home lives for kids and parents. Whatever that means.

    Not saying we shouldn't continue to try new ways to educate and prepare our children for life, but continuing to just throw money at this problem is not the correct approach.
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  • If you think about the home front, our system started to rapidly erode when we went from the Bread winner Dad to the two income household. The kids come home to nobody, stability and enforcement of doing homework etc isn't there, the help from parents isn't there since they are at work and or are too tired or are trying to take care of household business over their kids. The farther we get away from the Bread winner families the faster the decline. Also there are more single parent households then before, being able to make up for that second set of hands so to speak isn't or doesn't happen. Many kids learn their work ethic and or study habits young, by the time they become and I will use the word self sufficient in as they don't need day care and a baby sitter they have already developed bad habits or given up on things because they have fallen behind the curve.
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  • chris98251 wrote:If you think about the home front, our system started to rapidly erode when we went from the Bread winner Dad to the two income household. The kids come home to nobody, stability and enforcement of doing homework etc isn't there, the help from parents isn't there since they are at work and or are too tired or are trying to take care of household business over their kids. The farther we get away from the Bread winner families the faster the decline. Also there are more single parent households then before, being able to make up for that second set of hands so to speak isn't or doesn't happen. Many kids learn their work ethic and or study habits young, by the time they become and I will use the word self sufficient in as they don't need day care and a baby sitter they have already developed bad habits or given up on things because they have fallen behind the curve.


    Agree with your point here, and more money into the school systems won't fix that.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:Throwing more and more money at our education system will never work, because of one simple fact................student success since the dawn of the first school depends primarily on what happens at home, and not the school.

    We already spend more money per student than any other country. What creates the failures is in the home. THAT'S where we should be focusing our resources and energy, trying to create stable home lives for kids and parents. Whatever that means.

    Not saying we shouldn't continue to try new ways to educate and prepare our children for life, but continuing to just throw money at this problem is not the correct approach.



    This. If a an education isn't valued by the parents, then the kids don't stand a chance. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:01 am
  • WmHBonney wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:Throwing more and more money at our education system will never work, because of one simple fact................student success since the dawn of the first school depends primarily on what happens at home, and not the school.

    We already spend more money per student than any other country. What creates the failures is in the home. THAT'S where we should be focusing our resources and energy, trying to create stable home lives for kids and parents. Whatever that means.

    Not saying we shouldn't continue to try new ways to educate and prepare our children for life, but continuing to just throw money at this problem is not the correct approach.



    This. If a an education isn't valued by the parents, then the kids don't stand a chance. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.


    So the Mom that has three part time jobs to make ends meet and is trying to provide a roof over her kids head doesn't care enough to go on Welfare get subsidized housing and stay at home to help her kids with homework and go to PTA meetings as well as parent teacher conferences. Ok.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:24 am
  • WmHBonney wrote:This. If a an education isn't valued by the parents, then the kids don't stand a chance. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

    If we can't change society overall to the point of prioritizing education in home life (and that would be a nearly impossible task, I think), then we need to take charge of education to the point where all the crappy parents out there who don't do right by their kids at home regarding schooling can't ruin it.

    The traditional education system in the United States depends on parents doing things at home to help, and that needs to change. I don't know if we need to think about trying a compromise between what we have now and boarding school?

    I think we need to dump the entire idea of "homework" altogether, because we can't force parents to make sure their kids do it, and do it properly. What good is "homework" when you can just Google the answer to everything, anyways?

    Longer classes and school days but without ever having kids take schoolwork home seems like a good place to start, in my mind. What say ye all?
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:33 am
  • Why I said K - 14 and actually no summer breaks. Set up vacation schedules.
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  • I think a big part of the problem is that we started looking at flawed international statistics*, thought we were doing poorly, and started changing how we teach. And that screwed it up. We recently started homeschooling my daughter (son will likely follow next year) because of the way they teach in school. There's no rhyme or reason to it. Treating everything as a sight word boggles my mind. Not impressed with how they do spelling either. Math was okayish, but not great. Oh, and I think they spent time doing at least one fire drill (or other safety drill) every month. So basically things were largely fine, we incorrectly thought it wasn't, and in response have screwed it up horribly.

    * For a brief explanation of why the international statistics are flawed: we test everybody here in America. EVERYBODY. In many other countries, they only test the best and the brightest.
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  • [quote="RolandDeschain"]

    I think we need to dump the entire idea of "homework" altogether, because we can't force parents to make sure their kids do it, and do it properly. What good is "homework" when you can just Google the answer to everything, anyways?


    At the school my daughter went to (per my previous post we started homeschooling), they give homework in first grade. FIRST GRADE! And it wasn't a small amount of homework either. The annoying thing was it was clearly an attempt to force parent interaction with their kids. Talk about condescending! Oh, and we live in an upper middle (okay, probably lower upper) class area. It's not like these parents aren't aware of what it takes to be successful.
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  • Well, I can't say that I think that home schooling is the solution.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:Well, I can't say that I think that home schooling is the solution.


    Wait 'til you and the new missus have a new whipper snapper going to school and you find the teacher doesn't bother teaching proper grammar. Then see how you feel about it. :)

    Seriously though, homeschooling isn't just for the religiously motivated anymore. It's becoming more of a secular thing too as parents are simple unhappy with schools. Done for the right reasons and in the right way, homeschooling can be vastly better than schools (that's not intended as a knock on schools). Also, there is getting to be more and more infrastructure in place to help homeschool kids have outlets and play time with other kids.

    So considering the big determinant of how a child does in school is parental involvement, homeschooling is like taking that idea to the max.
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  • HawkGA wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:Well, I can't say that I think that home schooling is the solution.


    Wait 'til you and the new missus have a new whipper snapper going to school and you find the teacher doesn't bother teaching proper grammar. Then see how you feel about it. :)

    Seriously though, homeschooling isn't just for the religiously motivated anymore. It's becoming more of a secular thing too as parents are simple unhappy with schools. Done for the right reasons and in the right way, homeschooling can be vastly better than schools (that's not intended as a knock on schools). Also, there is getting to be more and more infrastructure in place to help homeschool kids have outlets and play time with other kids.

    So considering the big determinant of how a child does in school is parental involvement, homeschooling is like taking that idea to the max.


    Yes, but then your stagnate social development, how to work with others, survival skills etc. My sister in-law Homeschooled all of her kids, she had a nest of 5, was fine initially but the resources and the social aspect was not seen as a issue until the schooling got to jr high levels and the kids went to public school, they found they had some holes in their education and had to play catch up in those and the social aspect was overwhelming for them, this was in a small area so I can't imagine a metropolis setting where instead of hundreds you introduce them to thousands, then you have interscholastic activities as well as the state requirements to pass tests now that had to be done to certify their education levels.
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  • HawkGA wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:Well, I can't say that I think that home schooling is the solution.


    Wait 'til you and the new missus have a new whipper snapper going to school and you find the teacher doesn't bother teaching proper grammar. Then see how you feel about it. :)

    Seriously though, homeschooling isn't just for the religiously motivated anymore. It's becoming more of a secular thing too as parents are simple unhappy with schools. Done for the right reasons and in the right way, homeschooling can be vastly better than schools (that's not intended as a knock on schools). Also, there is getting to be more and more infrastructure in place to help homeschool kids have outlets and play time with other kids.

    So considering the big determinant of how a child does in school is parental involvement, homeschooling is like taking that idea to the max.

    Every home-schooled person I've ever known has had to deal with major social issues to fit into society as they entered adulthood and many of them it took years to overcome.

    I'm not saying you can't educate kids with the material better at home...You can. What you can't do is reproduce social learning that happens to people as they interact with large numbers of other people that are different from them on a daily basis.

    How do you plan to combat this?
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:09 am
  • It's not like you have to be sheltered as a homeschool person, though I suspect several are. There are co-ops and other activities to get kids social interaction. But yes, making sure kids get socialization is an important part making sure homeschooling is done well.

    When I was a kid we had a group of students who attended what was basically a small Christian co-op (not homeschooling per se, but prettyt close as it only had a handful of families). It shutdown around the 6th grade and the kids integrated into the school system. Some did fine, some were weird . . . a lot like most people, some are normal and some are weird. The "weird" ones made friends with the other weird kids at school. I suspect, to some extent, they viewed the "non-weird" kids as the weird ones. My guess is the kids you've interacted with that were homeschooled would have been weird regardless. I would even guess you've probably interacted with homeschooled people and never suspected they were homeschooled because they weren't weird.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:12 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    HawkGA wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:Well, I can't say that I think that home schooling is the solution.


    Wait 'til you and the new missus have a new whipper snapper going to school and you find the teacher doesn't bother teaching proper grammar. Then see how you feel about it. :)

    Seriously though, homeschooling isn't just for the religiously motivated anymore. It's becoming more of a secular thing too as parents are simple unhappy with schools. Done for the right reasons and in the right way, homeschooling can be vastly better than schools (that's not intended as a knock on schools). Also, there is getting to be more and more infrastructure in place to help homeschool kids have outlets and play time with other kids.

    So considering the big determinant of how a child does in school is parental involvement, homeschooling is like taking that idea to the max.


    Yes, but then your stagnate social development, how to work with others, survival skills etc. My sister in-law Homeschooled all of her kids, she had a nest of 5, was fine initially but the resources and the social aspect was not seen as a issue until the schooling got to jr high levels and the kids went to public school, they found they had some holes in their education and had to play catch up in those and the social aspect was overwhelming for them, this was in a small area so I can't imagine a metropolis setting where instead of hundreds you introduce them to thousands, then you have interscholastic activities as well as the state requirements to pass tests now that had to be done to certify their education levels.


    I actually think a metropolis area makes it easier because you are naturally around more people. The kids my kids play with in the neighborhood all go to different schools. As to gaps in their education, I would guess that had more to do with the choice of curriculum or even teaching method (there's this thing called "un-schooling" and if you ever hear of anybody doing that, run. Run far away!). But why did they homeschool and then send kids to public school? High school is horrible. Nobody should start their kids out there.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:33 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    WmHBonney wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:Throwing more and more money at our education system will never work, because of one simple fact................student success since the dawn of the first school depends primarily on what happens at home, and not the school.

    We already spend more money per student than any other country. What creates the failures is in the home. THAT'S where we should be focusing our resources and energy, trying to create stable home lives for kids and parents. Whatever that means.

    Not saying we shouldn't continue to try new ways to educate and prepare our children for life, but continuing to just throw money at this problem is not the correct approach.



    This. If a an education isn't valued by the parents, then the kids don't stand a chance. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.


    So the Mom that has three part time jobs to make ends meet and is trying to provide a roof over her kids head doesn't care enough to go on Welfare get subsidized housing and stay at home to help her kids with homework and go to PTA meetings as well as parent teacher conferences. Ok.


    Who said any of this?

    Parents don't have to go to PTA meetings and stay at home and do homework with their kids to be great parents and raise responsible educated kids.

    It sure helps, but it's not the difference between the success and failure of our education system.

    Now if that mom doesn't make sure her kids did they're homework, and made sure they knew that the path to success ISN'T working three jobs and struggling? Then yes, she isn't doing her part in this discussion.

    Be involved as much as you can, lead by example, be present, make sure your kids know how important education is, and what it means for opening doors to success. That's what I'm talking about. No one's chastising struggling moms.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:47 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    WmHBonney wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:Throwing more and more money at our education system will never work, because of one simple fact................student success since the dawn of the first school depends primarily on what happens at home, and not the school.

    We already spend more money per student than any other country. What creates the failures is in the home. THAT'S where we should be focusing our resources and energy, trying to create stable home lives for kids and parents. Whatever that means.

    Not saying we shouldn't continue to try new ways to educate and prepare our children for life, but continuing to just throw money at this problem is not the correct approach.



    This. If a an education isn't valued by the parents, then the kids don't stand a chance. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.


    So the Mom that has three part time jobs to make ends meet and is trying to provide a roof over her kids head doesn't care enough to go on Welfare get subsidized housing and stay at home to help her kids with homework and go to PTA meetings as well as parent teacher conferences. Ok.


    Who said any of this?

    Parents don't have to go to PTA meetings and stay at home and do homework with their kids to be great parents and raise responsible educated kids.

    It sure helps, but it's not the difference between the success and failure of our education system.

    Now if that mom doesn't make sure her kids did they're homework, and made sure they knew that the path to success ISN'T working three jobs and struggling? Then yes, she isn't doing her part in this discussion.

    Be involved as much as you can, lead by example, be present, make sure your kids know how important education is, and what it means for opening doors to success. That's what I'm talking about. No one's chastising struggling moms.


    You paint a picture with a roller and chastise all, I pointed out a typical example of some of the parents and what they do, that Mom may have been to school, hooked up with an abusive person and now is on her own. Survival is her priority and trying to provide, in between trying to make meals, clean and wipe little Johnnies runny nose she asks did they do their homework, or asks cousin Alice who is watching them for free to have an adult at home while she works.

    As the job market gets more convoluted and people are doing multiple part time jobs this situation just gets worse, why people don't see what's happening is beyond me, those that have great incomes and a solid home and wife and all that goes with it should be considered the fortunate ones, one screw up and divorce papers and losing half of what you have and then the pay out for child support can wake a lot of women and men up quickly. Juggling both parent responsibilities and working and providing not to mention trying to allow the kids not to be affected by the break up is a lot harder then people think it is, something has to give and it is usually the time spent with the kids helping with homework and such, especially if you have three or more. Parent tries to cook dinner answer the phone and take care of household business while taking questions from her kids or trying to keep them on task.

    Some kids can be self motivators and starters, others need a lot of work to get thru things, many would say then don't have kids, but life's roll of the dice can change in a instance, that dream of a white picket fence can turn into a nightmare for a number of reasons many of you know. I used a divorce, as a situation, but add a death or a life changing injury, a economic collapse of your career. Many things change what we have to do, and it goes back to survive first then other things.

    The system is set up for the home support situation which is typically a two parent household, it has been that way for generations, the system doesn't match our current social structure.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:54 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    The system is set up for the home support situation which is typically a two parent household, it has been that way for generations, the system doesn't match our current social structure.


    Unfortunately yes that's true............but the truth isn't going away no matter how much we cry unfair or how money we throw into our education system for nicer schools, more iPads for kids, charter schools, free school lunches, whatever, you name it and that won't help. It just won't.

    That parental family stability and caring about education HAS to be present in order to foster the biggest chance for success.

    You just listed out the difference in two posts Chris, two parent caring households have kids that are more successful. So let's try to recreate THAT for the families who need it, and stop trying and thinking the solution is the schools.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:47 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    The system is set up for the home support situation which is typically a two parent household, it has been that way for generations, the system doesn't match our current social structure.


    Unfortunately yes that's true............but the truth isn't going away no matter how much we cry unfair or how money we throw into our education system for nicer schools, more iPads for kids, charter schools, free school lunches, whatever, you name it and that won't help. It just won't.

    That parental family stability and caring about education HAS to be present in order to foster the biggest chance for success.

    You just listed out the difference in two posts Chris, two parent caring households have kids that are more successful. So let's try to recreate THAT for the families who need it, and stop trying and thinking the solution is the schools.


    You are not going back to Leave it to Beaver Households anytime soon, so you can cut class time down during the day and create a study facility to help kids with homework, extend the school year with no summer breaks but have vacation breaks that can be scheduled to coincide with parents. That kind of situation or something like it would have to be created, we have a lot of substitute teachers that are part time fill ins, maybe they could be full time and run some of these study groups? It would make up for the BROKEN HOME enigma we have. It would also make available the school resources that some kids do not have at home, Internet, computers etc.
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  • chris98251 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    The system is set up for the home support situation which is typically a two parent household, it has been that way for generations, the system doesn't match our current social structure.


    Unfortunately yes that's true............but the truth isn't going away no matter how much we cry unfair or how money we throw into our education system for nicer schools, more iPads for kids, charter schools, free school lunches, whatever, you name it and that won't help. It just won't.

    That parental family stability and caring about education HAS to be present in order to foster the biggest chance for success.

    You just listed out the difference in two posts Chris, two parent caring households have kids that are more successful. So let's try to recreate THAT for the families who need it, and stop trying and thinking the solution is the schools.


    You are not going back to Leave it to Beaver Households anytime soon, so you can cut class time down during the day and create a study facility to help kids with homework, extend the school year with no summer breaks but have vacation breaks that can be scheduled to coincide with parents. That kind of situation or something like it would have to be created, we have a lot of substitute teachers that are part time fill ins, maybe they could be full time and run some of these study groups? It would make up for the BROKEN HOME enigma we have. It would also make available the school resources that some kids do not have at home, Internet, computers etc.


    Sounds great, probably cost us another 20 billion to do a feasibility study on it though. :lol:
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  • chris98251 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    The system is set up for the home support situation which is typically a two parent household, it has been that way for generations, the system doesn't match our current social structure.


    Unfortunately yes that's true............but the truth isn't going away no matter how much we cry unfair or how money we throw into our education system for nicer schools, more iPads for kids, charter schools, free school lunches, whatever, you name it and that won't help. It just won't.

    That parental family stability and caring about education HAS to be present in order to foster the biggest chance for success.

    You just listed out the difference in two posts Chris, two parent caring households have kids that are more successful. So let's try to recreate THAT for the families who need it, and stop trying and thinking the solution is the schools.


    You are not going back to Leave it to Beaver Households anytime soon, so you can cut class time down during the day and create a study facility to help kids with homework, extend the school year with no summer breaks but have vacation breaks that can be scheduled to coincide with parents. That kind of situation or something like it would have to be created, we have a lot of substitute teachers that are part time fill ins, maybe they could be full time and run some of these study groups? It would make up for the BROKEN HOME enigma we have. It would also make available the school resources that some kids do not have at home, Internet, computers etc.



    I like all these ideas, because they do address what I'm talking about.

    How bout diverting or adding resources to in home tutoring, after school resource tutoring...........hell even giving Medicaid and welfare more money for parenting classes/counseling.

    This is not a "I don't want my taxes raised!" thing for me. I'm all for helping families, I just want us to start focusing on the home, and not just throwing money at the schools to mismanage and waste.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    WmHBonney wrote:This. If a an education isn't valued by the parents, then the kids don't stand a chance. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

    If we can't change society overall to the point of prioritizing education in home life (and that would be a nearly impossible task, I think), then we need to take charge of education to the point where all the crappy parents out there who don't do right by their kids at home regarding schooling can't ruin it.

    The traditional education system in the United States depends on parents doing things at home to help, and that needs to change. I don't know if we need to think about trying a compromise between what we have now and boarding school?

    I think we need to dump the entire idea of "homework" altogether, because we can't force parents to make sure their kids do it, and do it properly. What good is "homework" when you can just Google the answer to everything, anyways?

    Longer classes and school days but without ever having kids take schoolwork home seems like a good place to start, in my mind. What say ye all?



    It's often referred to as "block" scheduling, and has been fairly effective in many school districts.

    Two other aspects that public schools should really think about: do away with summers. Turn the school year into 11 months. the last month of any school year is nearly as much of a waste of time as the first month is in re-teaching kids.

    Elongate and diversify the educational day. Make the days longer, bring back physical and social activities.

    Each of these have been diminished due to a lack of (or misappropriation of) funds.

    This last one will sound strange, but.. uniforms... in every single school.
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  • Uncle Si wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    WmHBonney wrote:This. If a an education isn't valued by the parents, then the kids don't stand a chance. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

    If we can't change society overall to the point of prioritizing education in home life (and that would be a nearly impossible task, I think), then we need to take charge of education to the point where all the crappy parents out there who don't do right by their kids at home regarding schooling can't ruin it.

    The traditional education system in the United States depends on parents doing things at home to help, and that needs to change. I don't know if we need to think about trying a compromise between what we have now and boarding school?

    I think we need to dump the entire idea of "homework" altogether, because we can't force parents to make sure their kids do it, and do it properly. What good is "homework" when you can just Google the answer to everything, anyways?

    Longer classes and school days but without ever having kids take schoolwork home seems like a good place to start, in my mind. What say ye all?



    It's often referred to as "block" scheduling, and has been fairly effective in many school districts.

    Two other aspects that public schools should really think about: do away with summers. Turn the school year into 11 months. the last month of any school year is nearly as much of a waste of time as the first month is in re-teaching kids.

    Elongate and diversify the educational day. Make the days longer, bring back physical and social activities.

    Each of these have been diminished due to a lack of (or misappropriation of) funds.

    This last one will sound strange, but.. uniforms... in every single school.



    Uniforms, baa, kids expressing themselves is how they grow independence in my view, dress as gang bangers or Whores is different, there is a certain decorum you need to learn in social environments and dress is one of them, hair cuts, make up etc. You want Lemmings you train them to be lemmings and lemmings is what you get.
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  • I've always said that I'm not having kids until I'm sure I can afford to send them to private schools. I remember a lot about public schools, even dating back to my early childhood. They are designed to educate a certain type of person, and if you aren't that type of person, they will do everything in their power to make you feel like you're the problem, and that you need to change. It's not the teachers' fault, because they are just following their expectations.

    And I disagree that school is somehow automatically going to improve a person's social skills and ability to work with others. The best way to develop that is to let your children go outside and play somewhere unsupervised by adults for an hour or two several times a week. And when they get older, let them go to parties and stuff. Stop being so afraid that something bad is going to happen to them. I'd rather die than grow up without those experiences.
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  • chris98251 wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    WmHBonney wrote:This. If a an education isn't valued by the parents, then the kids don't stand a chance. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

    If we can't change society overall to the point of prioritizing education in home life (and that would be a nearly impossible task, I think), then we need to take charge of education to the point where all the crappy parents out there who don't do right by their kids at home regarding schooling can't ruin it.

    The traditional education system in the United States depends on parents doing things at home to help, and that needs to change. I don't know if we need to think about trying a compromise between what we have now and boarding school?

    I think we need to dump the entire idea of "homework" altogether, because we can't force parents to make sure their kids do it, and do it properly. What good is "homework" when you can just Google the answer to everything, anyways?

    Longer classes and school days but without ever having kids take schoolwork home seems like a good place to start, in my mind. What say ye all?



    It's often referred to as "block" scheduling, and has been fairly effective in many school districts.

    Two other aspects that public schools should really think about: do away with summers. Turn the school year into 11 months. the last month of any school year is nearly as much of a waste of time as the first month is in re-teaching kids.

    Elongate and diversify the educational day. Make the days longer, bring back physical and social activities.

    Each of these have been diminished due to a lack of (or misappropriation of) funds.

    This last one will sound strange, but.. uniforms... in every single school.



    Uniforms, baa, kids expressing themselves is how they grow independence in my view, dress as gang bangers or Whores is different, there is a certain decorum you need to learn in social environments and dress is one of them, hair cuts, make up etc. You want Lemmings you train them to be lemmings and lemmings is what you get.


    Uniforms address a number of social issues, as well as academic "distraction" concerns.. and schools that have them will often use "non-uniform" days as motivators for successes.

    I've taught in two different schools that use uniforms and believed they created a better learning environment.
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  • chris98251 wrote:Uniforms, baa, kids expressing themselves is how they grow independence in my view, dress as gang bangers or Whores is different, there is a certain decorum you need to learn in social environments and dress is one of them, hair cuts, make up etc. You want Lemmings you train them to be lemmings and lemmings is what you get.


    I wore a uniform at Catholic school for eight years, and as much as we all hated wearing the uniforms it did stop a lot of social class issues that normal schools have.

    Even then we picked out who had the nicest shoes, so it is a real issue with kids that could be done away with uniforms.

    I still can't wear a pair of cords btw, I refuse!
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  • I remember students getting picked on and placed into different social groups because of the clothes they wore. So yeah, uniforms are actually a good idea. That way, students can judge each other more based on the content of their character.

    I'm biased, though, because I was one of those kids. My parents couldn't afford to buy me nice clothes, and I remember at one point in 9th grade some student got annoyed with me and made a comment about how I only wore like 3 different shirts to school, and then other kids started laughing and adding in their own comments about my clothes as well. The teacher, of course, did nothing, because my teachers all hated me for using the classroom as an audience for telling jokes.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:12 am
  • Guess what, the world isn't equal, poor or rich you all go thru that understanding, hiding a social status is bull, coping is learned, being judgmental of social status is another form of prejudice. It's all about control, I think that corporal punishment is a better way, the threat of it alone. Problem is to many parents think their little angels will get by with having long discussions about how bad it is to punch little Johnny, throw mud on pretty little Susie, or flip off Old man Sample in Math class. Knowing that there is a consequence will give teachers back a level of classroom control the permissive parents took away and never deal with.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:37 am
  • chris98251 wrote:Guess what, the world isn't equal, poor or rich you all go thru that understanding, hiding a social status is bull, coping is learned, being judgmental of social status is another form of prejudice. It's all about control, I think that corporal punishment is a better way, the threat of it alone. Problem is to many parents think their little angels will get by with having long discussions about how bad it is to punch little Johnny, throw mud on pretty little Susie, or flip off Old man Sample in Math class. Knowing that there is a consequence will give teachers back a level of classroom control the permissive parents took away and never deal with.


    You're an enigma wrapped in a riddle chris. You're OK with corporal punishment in schools, but uniforms, hell no!

    Like I said, I was a uniform wearing kid, and none of the things you mentioned came true with us. We didn't have our creativity or social coping skills diminished just because we all wore the same clothes to school.

    IMO it's a good way of reducing some of the distractions that take away from learning. It's really not that big of a deal, but has been proven to help in positive ways.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:41 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Guess what, the world isn't equal, poor or rich you all go thru that understanding, hiding a social status is bull, coping is learned, being judgmental of social status is another form of prejudice. It's all about control, I think that corporal punishment is a better way, the threat of it alone. Problem is to many parents think their little angels will get by with having long discussions about how bad it is to punch little Johnny, throw mud on pretty little Susie, or flip off Old man Sample in Math class. Knowing that there is a consequence will give teachers back a level of classroom control the permissive parents took away and never deal with.


    You're an enigma wrapped in a riddle chris. You're OK with corporal punishment in schools, but uniforms, hell no!

    Like I said, I was a uniform wearing kid, and none of the things you mentioned came true with us. We didn't have our creativity or social coping skills diminished just because we all wore the same clothes to school.

    IMO it's a good way of reducing some of the distractions that take away from learning. It's really not that big of a deal, but has been proven to help in positive ways.


    I liked seeing boobs and short tight skirts as a distraction.

    Remember I grew up in High School in the 70's Mini and Micro Minis were the fashion then and low cut as well.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:46 am
  • They need to pay substitute teachers more.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:49 am
  • JSeahawks wrote:They need to pay substitute teachers more.



    I think the whole platform of pay for teachers is out of whack, the people that form our young peoples mind are paid a pittance, yet they scream about education issues. Teachers have our most valuable resource to manage and shape and we as a country treat it like a second hand store item.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:06 am
  • Teachers only need to paid whatever it takes to attract enough of them that meet the qualifications to do the job. I'm not aware of any teacher shortages. That's just the reality of how your pay is determined no matter what job you do.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:13 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Guess what, the world isn't equal, poor or rich you all go thru that understanding, hiding a social status is bull, coping is learned, being judgmental of social status is another form of prejudice. It's all about control, I think that corporal punishment is a better way, the threat of it alone. Problem is to many parents think their little angels will get by with having long discussions about how bad it is to punch little Johnny, throw mud on pretty little Susie, or flip off Old man Sample in Math class. Knowing that there is a consequence will give teachers back a level of classroom control the permissive parents took away and never deal with.


    You're an enigma wrapped in a riddle chris. You're OK with corporal punishment in schools, but uniforms, hell no!

    Like I said, I was a uniform wearing kid, and none of the things you mentioned came true with us. We didn't have our creativity or social coping skills diminished just because we all wore the same clothes to school.

    IMO it's a good way of reducing some of the distractions that take away from learning. It's really not that big of a deal, but has been proven to help in positive ways.


    I liked seeing boobs and short tight skirts as a distraction.

    Remember I grew up in High School in the 70's Mini and Micro Minis were the fashion then and low cut as well.


    Clearly an argument FOR uniforms.. look at you now.. you degen..
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:17 am
  • fenderbender123 wrote:Teachers only need to paid whatever it takes to attract enough of them that meet the qualifications to do the job. I'm not aware of any teacher shortages. That's just the reality of how your pay is determined no matter what job you do.


    This is what's wrong with the system, school districts do the same thing then pilfer the rest of the money on administration. Or like many others funnel it to special projects other then the kids interests. Why teachers buy materials for their classes out of their own pockets and things and can least afford it most times unless they have a spouse that makes good money.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:20 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Guess what, the world isn't equal, poor or rich you all go thru that understanding, hiding a social status is bull, coping is learned, being judgmental of social status is another form of prejudice. It's all about control, I think that corporal punishment is a better way, the threat of it alone. Problem is to many parents think their little angels will get by with having long discussions about how bad it is to punch little Johnny, throw mud on pretty little Susie, or flip off Old man Sample in Math class. Knowing that there is a consequence will give teachers back a level of classroom control the permissive parents took away and never deal with.


    You're an enigma wrapped in a riddle chris. You're OK with corporal punishment in schools, but uniforms, hell no!

    Like I said, I was a uniform wearing kid, and none of the things you mentioned came true with us. We didn't have our creativity or social coping skills diminished just because we all wore the same clothes to school.

    IMO it's a good way of reducing some of the distractions that take away from learning. It's really not that big of a deal, but has been proven to help in positive ways.


    I liked seeing boobs and short tight skirts as a distraction.

    Remember I grew up in High School in the 70's Mini and Micro Minis were the fashion then and low cut as well.


    Clearly an argument FOR uniforms.. look at you now.. you degen..


    You say that now but I bet you wouldn't at 13 - 19 yrs old. Less is more and I did graduate with a 3.85 played all three sports seasons and got laid a lot :)
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:21 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    JSeahawks wrote:They need to pay substitute teachers more.



    I think the whole platform of pay for teachers is out of whack, the people that form our young peoples mind are paid a pittance, yet they scream about education issues. Teachers have our most valuable resource to manage and shape and we as a country treat it like a second hand store item.


    It's like any job, supply and demand.

    Sure teachers are important to our society, but they chose a profession that there isn't much demand for because so many people like the idea of making 50-60k a year, only working 180 days a year and getting full benefits and a pension.

    That's the trade off, and while I'm all for teachers making more money. I also don't feel sorry for any person who knows what their chosen profession pays. People want to be teachers to make a difference with kids and have all the things I mentioned above.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:26 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    JSeahawks wrote:They need to pay substitute teachers more.



    I think the whole platform of pay for teachers is out of whack, the people that form our young peoples mind are paid a pittance, yet they scream about education issues. Teachers have our most valuable resource to manage and shape and we as a country treat it like a second hand store item.


    It's like any job, supply and demand.

    Sure teachers are important to our society, but they chose a profession that there isn't much demand for because so many people like the idea of making 50-60k a year, only working 180 days a year and getting full benefits and a pension.

    That's the trade off, and while I'm all for teachers making more money. I also don't feel sorry for any person who knows what their chosen profession pays. People want to be teachers to make a difference with kids and have all the things I mentioned above.



    But that isn't the case, many areas have a hard time bringing teachers in, it is the pay structure of each state or district and districts that have lower incomes pay less and get many times the bottom or low end or entry level teachers, the kids suffer. So many stories about districts having trouble retaining their teachers because of the private sector hiring the teachers that are ranked high in public schools is a issue as well.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:27 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    fenderbender123 wrote:Teachers only need to paid whatever it takes to attract enough of them that meet the qualifications to do the job. I'm not aware of any teacher shortages. That's just the reality of how your pay is determined no matter what job you do.


    This is what's wrong with the system, school districts do the same thing then pilfer the rest of the money on administration. Or like many others funnel it to special projects other then the kids interests. Why teachers buy materials for their classes out of their own pockets and things and can least afford it most times unless they have a spouse that makes good money.


    What materials are they buying? Chalk? That's really all you need as long as you have a chalkboard. If you don't have enough textbooks, then if I was a teacher I'd just let the student(s) who don't have one go without go to the principles office and explain why. But I know several teachers, and they don't pay for materials themselves...and if they do, it's something that isn't really necessary.

    But yes, I agree that the admins make too much money. They really don't do much at all.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:33 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    JSeahawks wrote:They need to pay substitute teachers more.



    I think the whole platform of pay for teachers is out of whack, the people that form our young peoples mind are paid a pittance, yet they scream about education issues. Teachers have our most valuable resource to manage and shape and we as a country treat it like a second hand store item.


    It's like any job, supply and demand.

    Sure teachers are important to our society, but they chose a profession that there isn't much demand for because so many people like the idea of making 50-60k a year, only working 180 days a year and getting full benefits and a pension.

    That's the trade off, and while I'm all for teachers making more money. I also don't feel sorry for any person who knows what their chosen profession pays. People want to be teachers to make a difference with kids and have all the things I mentioned above.



    But that isn't the case, many areas have a hard time bringing teachers in, it is the pay structure of each state or district and districts that have lower incomes pay less and get many times the bottom or low end or entry level teachers, the kids suffer. So many stories about districts having trouble retaining their teachers because of the private sector hiring the teachers that are ranked high in public schools is a issue as well.


    I don't think teachers making 50/60K are the ones complaining. It is the teachers in districts paying 30/35K, usually working with a population of student that requires more attention. This is where retention becomes difficult.

    This may be bordering on political, and if so, happy to remove, but what about Nationalizing and standardizing the public school system (like many of the stronger nations in education do)?
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:38 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    JSeahawks wrote:They need to pay substitute teachers more.



    I think the whole platform of pay for teachers is out of whack, the people that form our young peoples mind are paid a pittance, yet they scream about education issues. Teachers have our most valuable resource to manage and shape and we as a country treat it like a second hand store item.


    It's like any job, supply and demand.

    Sure teachers are important to our society, but they chose a profession that there isn't much demand for because so many people like the idea of making 50-60k a year, only working 180 days a year and getting full benefits and a pension.

    That's the trade off, and while I'm all for teachers making more money. I also don't feel sorry for any person who knows what their chosen profession pays. People want to be teachers to make a difference with kids and have all the things I mentioned above.



    But that isn't the case, many areas have a hard time bringing teachers in, it is the pay structure of each state or district and districts that have lower incomes pay less and get many times the bottom or low end or entry level teachers, the kids suffer. So many stories about districts having trouble retaining their teachers because of the private sector hiring the teachers that are ranked high in public schools is a issue as well.


    So do what you said above, change the system and start taking salary away from the ridiculously overpaid top heavy administration side of districts.

    Like I said with just throwing more money at the kids, I'd like the money distributed differently to fix these sorts of problems.........and not just tax people more.

    We spend 10-20% of school budgets on pencil pushers and staffs of principals, vice principals, etc. Funnel some of that over to the teacher side if districts are understaffed.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:41 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    I don't think teachers making 50/60K are the ones complaining. It is the teachers in districts paying 30/35K, usually working with a population of student that requires more attention. This is where retention becomes difficult.

    This may be bordering on political, and if so, happy to remove, but what about Nationalizing and standardizing the public school system (like many of the stronger nations in education do)?


    I get it, but it's not as simple as just raising that districts taxes to fix the problem.

    Those hard to to find and pay inner city and low income teachers are paid by the city and county taxes of that district.........of which is inhabited by those very same low income families who live in the apartment buildings and low income housing.

    So raising taxes on those businesses and landlords in those already run down areas makes zero sense. It'd only either push them out or cause them to raise the rents for those low income families.

    So if anyone thinks those teachers need to make more, then you need to provide how to do it without causing issues with those districts taxation.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:43 am
  • Its not just the teachers and pay that need improvements. Public education in this country is extremely diverse, but has little direction. Changing the learning model and environment, bringing in a variety of resources, new curriculum, updating the opportunities for learners to push forward has to be the main goal.

    The system has it is now has little reward or merit available to those who might not fully grasp the importance of the opportunities in public education. That needs to be changed and I believe would require something drastic and dynamic (and national).

    Teacher pay and education can increase. Resources (especially on the technology side) can be implemented across the board to diversify the learning model as well as the learning opportunities. Changing the schedules to maximize learning and reduce distractions. Standardize the expectations and allow environments and opportunities for the low and high ends of the learner spectrum.

    Again, I think this requires federal control.
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    Uncle Si
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:48 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:Its not just the teachers and pay that need improvements. Public education in this country is extremely diverse, but has little direction. Changing the learning model and environment, bringing in a variety of resources, new curriculum, updating the opportunities for learners to push forward has to be the main goal.

    The system has it is now has little reward or merit available to those who might not fully grasp the importance of the opportunities in public education. That needs to be changed and I believe would require something drastic and dynamic (and national).

    Teacher pay and education can increase. Resources (especially on the technology side) can be implemented across the board to diversify the learning model as well as the learning opportunities. Changing the schedules to maximize learning and reduce distractions. Standardize the expectations and allow environments and opportunities for the low and high ends of the learner spectrum.

    Again, I think this requires federal control.


    I'm more of the let's let private companies come in and do things like charter schools, etc. Rather than trust our federal government to properly allocate funds.

    All that leads to is corrupt politicians funneling federal funds to their districts.

    There has been quite of few success stories with poor inner city charter schools hiring very talented teachers and administrators to turn around entire districts. Because once you make everyone earn their jobs, and perform to keep their jobs like a real business, the results are usually drastically improved.
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Re: More money for education didn't fix it
Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:52 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:Its not just the teachers and pay that need improvements. Public education in this country is extremely diverse, but has little direction. Changing the learning model and environment, bringing in a variety of resources, new curriculum, updating the opportunities for learners to push forward has to be the main goal.

    The system has it is now has little reward or merit available to those who might not fully grasp the importance of the opportunities in public education. That needs to be changed and I believe would require something drastic and dynamic (and national).

    Teacher pay and education can increase. Resources (especially on the technology side) can be implemented across the board to diversify the learning model as well as the learning opportunities. Changing the schedules to maximize learning and reduce distractions. Standardize the expectations and allow environments and opportunities for the low and high ends of the learner spectrum.

    Again, I think this requires federal control.


    I'm more of the let's let private companies come in and do things like charter schools, etc. Rather than trust our federal government to properly allocate funds.

    All that leads to is corrupt politicians funneling federal funds to their districts.

    There has been quite of few success stories with poor inner city charter schools hiring very talented teachers and administrators to turn around entire districts. Because once you make everyone earn their jobs, and perform to keep their jobs like a real business, the results are usually drastically improved.


    Privatization is fine... but how do you guarantee balance and equity across the whole platform of schools?
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