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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:16 am
  • Maulbert wrote:
    Fudwamper wrote:I have never seen anything that relates using the Force and having an impact on the user.


    Except you have, unless you didn't see Revenge of the Sith.

    Check 3:08.



    Was that from using the force? I always viewed that as getting the lightning reflected back at him. Why he kept up at it though seemed very dumb. But that is a different story.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:48 am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:51 am
  • Star Wars has never really been science fiction.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:01 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mark-hamill-last-jedi-luke-skywalker_us_5a3cf644e4b025f99e16864d

    Mark Hamill wrote:He's not my Luke Skywalker.


    I prefer the Luke in the Film, How do we know who Luke is? We know him as a wide eyed kid, getting great powers and defeating the Emperor.

    Time, huge failure on personally and professional level, asking the question of existence and other existential questions while being tied to such forces? Man that would ruin my day for a while.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:16 pm
  • Fudwamper wrote:
    Maulbert wrote:
    Fudwamper wrote:I have never seen anything that relates using the Force and having an impact on the user.


    Except you have, unless you didn't see Revenge of the Sith.

    Check 3:08.



    Was that from using the force? I always viewed that as getting the lightning reflected back at him. Why he kept up at it though seemed very dumb. But that is a different story.


    Yes. It's canon that use of the Force withered him. He just blamed the Jedi because it fit his narrative. I mean, if the lightning damaged him, why didn't the same thing happen to Luke in Return of the Jedi?

    Also, I mentioned this here last night, too:

    in The Last Jedi, Kylo realizes that Rey isn't projecting into his mind because mustering the power would have killed her, and that was a simple mind link. Luke created a coporeal duplicate (remember, he touched Leia's hand and kissed her forehead), not to mention everybody saw him, not just Kylo and Leia. Even C-3P0! If a mind link could kill someone, it's surprising he maintained a full cross-galaxy projection as long as he did.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:37 pm
  • Thunderhawk wrote:This was simply a bad movie. TFA was derivative, but introduced some likable new characters to the franchise. TLJ was just a mess.

    1) Plot: Slow speed chase of Empire fleet trying to catch Rebel corvette to eradicate last remnants of resistance. SLOW. SPEED. CHASE. Really? The empire with all their technical wizardry have no solution to catch the sea cow of spaceships? What happened to the Tie Fighters? They couldn't be scrambled to knock out shields, run interference? Furthermore, why didn't the resistance just hyperspace over to their salty safety planet and preserve their fleet, considering that the First Order would have tracked them either way? This moronic plot device sets up even dumber subplots.

    2) Subplot #1: leave the main ship to streak across the galaxy to find a hacker at a casino who will be identified by. a... broach. Streak back to Snoke's ship, sneak aboard and knock out a hyperspace tracker. If I pitched this to any of you guys you would have been like - "WTF? That's stupid". Yes it is. The super cheesy CGI in the casino only amplified its awfulness.

    3) Subplot #2: Poe mutinies. Why? Because he does not know the plan to launch the escape shuttles and send them to a fortified outpost. Why isn't this disclosed? Why doesn't the inept Rebel leadership simply share this with one of the heroes of their cause? We wouldn't have to waste an hour of the movie on inane misadventures.

    4) Snoke. Let's set up this hackneyed pantomime villain, make him the genius that reconstitutes the tattered empire into the dominant First Order, give him godly force powers.... and then slay him in 3 seconds without ever explaining, who he was, where he came from, or why we should care.

    5) Luke Skywalker - If you are going to kill him off anyway, why not let him go out in a blaze of glory? Astral projection? That's the best you got? This is the guy who killed a Rancor, faced down the emperor, blew up a death star, redeemed Darth Vader and you make him a prop? How epic would one last fight between he and the Empire have been - where all the powers Luke learned and cultivated could be fully unleashed? His death was the definition of anti-climax.

    BTW, Hollywood cannot comprehend that there are actual heroes in the universe that recognize evil for what it is and reject it. Hollywood loves moral relativism, anti-heroes, internal conflict - (at least within men - women, of course, are vessels of pure light). I am okay with Luke questioning his faith - but he was intimately aware, like no other person in the galaxy, with what the dark side creates: slavery and death. That he, with that knowledge would de-enlist himself from the battle against the Dark side is a betrayal of the character as we know him. That the person who redeemed Darth Vader would be cowed by the prospect of redeeming Kylo is just illogical.

    6) Leia - Force bubble. Oh dear. Can we still call Star Wars science fiction? Shouldn't there be some understanding of science and what happens to the human body when exposed to -450F degrees in space? Also, Carrie Fisher could barely emote with that scotch tape face-lift and botox. I found her off putting in every scene.

    7) Rey - I like Daisy Ridley but she doesn't have much to work with. She is a completely one dimensional character with zero weaknesses.

    8) Deus Ex Machinas Everywhere: We need a hacker. Oops we're in prison... coincidentally with a hacker....who later rescues us...and gets us on board Snoke's ship... then double-crosses us....now we're going to be executed... but Snoke's ship is serendipitously damaged before they can kill us....but the hangar bay is in ruins with ships exploding all around us... oh dear what shall we do....wait there is perfectly intact imperial shuttle over there amidst the fiery rubble... and it's right by the exit door - huzzah!

    We are in a slow speed chase bleeding fuel and watching the last remnants of the resistance get picked off one by one... that's cool cuz we know there is a salty safety planet only a few parsecs away with a giant impregnable door... "Ha ha" says the empire "we have a mini-death star door destroying cannon...so there"...yes, but the resistance has crystal kitties that show them a backdoor....but it's blocked by tons of boulders....enter Super Rey! huzzah!

    9) Light saber battles. What happened with Snoke''s henchman? The Light-saber is arguably the coolest weapon ever imagined. The duels are probably the most exciting parts of the movies. But this was so feebly choreographed that I just wanted it to be over. Where were the gymnastics? Environmental force attacks, etc? It was just so perfunctory and the costumes on the henchmen looked like something from Flash Gordon - not menacing like the Sith priests in the OT.

    10) CGI - How is it that Gollum 17 years ago looked more realistic than Snoke? All of the CGI in the casino, especially the floppy eared horses, was terribad. Disney has billions. How does this happen?

    Anyway, I've wasted enough time. Has our society become so dumbed down that the obvious absurdities in movies like this are no longer apparent? We live in a post Game of Thrones world. These writers need to trust that audiences are a little more sophisticated now and stop pandering to the CBS sitcom crowd. Plots need to make sense.


    But did you like it?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:47 pm
  • The_Z_Man wrote:
    vin.couve12 wrote:Sort of like a....exceeding your mana or magica limits where it cannibalizes off your HP. lol


    I'm totally impressed by your nerdiness.

    I love a good RPG epic. :lol:
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:32 am
  • I'm not saying, I'm just saying...
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:53 am
  • That same logic applies to the crowd that thinks "IT'S AMAZING, BECAUSE STAR WARS!"

    Just sayin'.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:02 pm
  • It's a little different.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:08 pm
  • Of course.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:21 pm
  • Again, unabashed Star Wars fanboy here. Agree 100%, Zeb. I can't believe these whiney A-holes who would actually give up on Star Wars over The Last Jedi after they sat through the prequels and how Lucas butchered the originals with his 'Special Editions'.

    Roland, liking The Force Awakens doesn't mean you like it just because it's Star Wars. It's not a perfect film, but you are in the minority on it, including critics who aren't happy unless they're watching some foofy foreign arthouse film in it's original dialect with no subtitles.

    When I hate on Attack of the Clones, it's because that film has severe acting, editing, writing, and structural problems. Not because of how it does or doesn't serve Star Wars fans, and neither TFA or TLJ have issues even close to the best prequel film, Revenge of the Sith.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:33 pm
  • No, I've got some pretty solid arguments on my side. For instance, I have yet to see ANYBODY justify the heavy foreshadowing of Han's death. They had a golden opportunity to have a "HOLY $HIT" moment like when you found out that Luke's father was Darth Vader. What did they do, instead? Tell you six ways from Sunday that Han was going to bite it.

    Just one of several examples of sheer stupidity that served no purpose in TFA. You can't argue that, so stop trying.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:04 pm
  • Subjective. The foreshadowing was actually pretty subtle.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:03 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:Subjective. The foreshadowing was actually pretty subtle.

    Dude. 10-year-olds saw it coming before it happened. I know, because the kid of one of the friends I was with leaned over and whispered it was going to happen minutes beforehand.

    I'm starting to think that nobody who grew up with Star Wars can evaluate it objectively as an adult.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:55 pm
  • I loved it, and i think its so funny that people can come on to this site and leave extensively long posts on how shitty it was. lol you liked it or you wouldn't make the time, and i did too. Thanks for being a fan!
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:21 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Subjective. The foreshadowing was actually pretty subtle.

    Dude. 10-year-olds saw it coming before it happened. I know, because the kid of one of the friends I was with leaned over and whispered it was going to happen minutes beforehand.

    I'm starting to think that nobody who grew up with Star Wars can evaluate it objectively as an adult.


    You're projecting. Harrison Ford wanted the character to die for over 30 years. I went in expecting him to die. As for evaluating it objectively, you're the one with the issue. I say it's a good movie. It's extremely well cast, well edited, well scored, and doesn't have the massive plot holes that plague the over-plotted prequels. Is it great? No, I never said it was. Some of the writing was cheesy, and Snoke sucked. But it was a pretty basic Star Wars story, and hit all the notes. It's comfort food, and that makes it good. I would rate TFA about 7/10. But see, for me, the original cuts of the first trilogy, TLJ, and Rogue One would all rank variously from 10-8 on my scale. Revenge of the Sith would be 6/10, mostly on the strength of Ewan MacGregor. The Phantom Menace is 5/10, mostly for Qui-Gon, Darth Maul, and THAT duel. Attack of the Clones might score 3/10. Maybe. On a good day. Because why the **** would the Jedi blindly use an army of clones they knew was made from the template of a guy who was working for an ex-Jedi that was behind starting the war in the first place on the other side? That is what I call a structural problem.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:10 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Subjective. The foreshadowing was actually pretty subtle.

    Dude. 10-year-olds saw it coming before it happened. I know, because the kid of one of the friends I was with leaned over and whispered it was going to happen minutes beforehand.


    Anecdotal.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:30 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:I'm not saying, I'm just saying...


    Different how? It was like they put Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi into a blender turned it on puree and dumped it into a glass. Not at all a fanboy and could enjoy the movie for what it was, but hardly original even within the series.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:45 pm
  • I had it foreshadowed for me.

    On Reddit. Explicitly.

    Stupid troll.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:01 pm
  • JustTheTip wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:I'm not saying, I'm just saying...


    Different how? It was like they put Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi into a blender turned it on puree and dumped it into a glass. Not at all a fanboy and could enjoy the movie for what it was, but hardly original even within the series.


    Totally. Bringing back Jabba was just lazy writing.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:26 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:Anecdotal.

    So, you're saying I'm lying. Thanks.

    I'm bowing out of this discussion.

    @Maulbert: I liked TLJ, so chill. Some peoples' inability to admit each of the recent Star Wars films are anything but perfect is more what I have an issue with.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:22 am
  • We've both said they're not perfect.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:04 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Anecdotal.

    So, you're saying I'm lying. Thanks.

    I'm bowing out of this discussion.

    @Maulbert: I liked TLJ, so chill. Some peoples' inability to admit each of the recent Star Wars films are anything but perfect is more what I have an issue with.


    My frustration with your argument is that you keep accusing fans of calling TFA perfect. I have never heard about anyone who liked it better than the original trilogy. That makes it not perfect. But your seem to get a burr in your britches just when someone calls it good, which, newsflash, TFA is good. You just don't like it and can't stand that you're in the minority. TFA is a good film. Argue that fact all you want. It doesn't make it not true.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:34 am
  • I was a huge Star Wars fan growing up, as was 99% of boys in the 70's and 80's.

    But I'm in no way a Star Wars nerd, caring about every little piece of minutia or adherence to the canon. I enjoy the films for what they are, a corny sometimes downright cheesy spaghetti western in space.

    I've enjoyed the new movies, Rogue One more than FA or LJ. I like it's darker more adult tone. FA and LJ feel too safe, predictable and sterile.............which is probably the heavy influence of Disney that needs the cast to look like the Mouskateers. They want SAFE and INCLUSIVE to appeal to the largest possible audience.

    I will say this, as much as Fisher and Hamill aren't exactly Shakespearian caliber actors, I'm glad Johnson gave them a lot of the heavy lifting in LJ, instead of just treating them like window dressing.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:36 am
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:We've both said they're not perfect.


    Cop-out. They were thoroughly mediocre movies.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:37 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:We've both said they're not perfect.


    Cop-out. They were thoroughly mediocre movies.


    I know how good the movies are. I was responding directly to Roland's "anything but perfect" remark.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:15 am
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:24 am
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:
    JustTheTip wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:I'm not saying, I'm just saying...


    Different how? It was like they put Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi into a blender turned it on puree and dumped it into a glass. Not at all a fanboy and could enjoy the movie for what it was, but hardly original even within the series.


    Totally. Bringing back Jabba was just lazy writing.



    Ice Planet scene split up and reversed (planet escape at the beginning and bunker bombardment at the end), throne scene where Vader is conflicted and kills his master (the result of this went a different direction at least and because it had too), abbreviated swamp (island) training of the hero (during which the hero faces herself in a vision), luke I am your father cross galaxy communication (a bit more advanced), ewoks, han solo (a little more lacking a conscience) offering to help for a price.

    Those are just the obvious ones off the top of my head. There are others off the top of my head I didn't list because an argument can be made for "original material" and I don't see it as important enough to waste energy debating it.

    Not saying it was exactly the same, but a lot of the same themes and sub-stories. But at least they got it out in one movie instead of two and the differences may be enough to finally get the franchise to a worthwhile original movie for episode 9.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:34 am
  • JustTheTip wrote:
    Not saying it was exactly the same, but a lot of the same themes and sub-stories. But at least they got it out in one movie instead of two and the differences may be enough to finally get the franchise to a worthwhile original movie for episode 9.


    I wouldn't hold your breath, Abrams seems content to make episodes 7-9 a homage, and not take any risks (probably at the orders of Disney).

    Like I said in my review above, the new movies are good, and even sometimes great. But make no mistake the writing is sterile, lazy and contrived in order to give us a safe sanitized Star Wars story that Disney isn't willing to take any risks on.........probably why the Solo movie directors were fired and the safest director in the history of cinema was brought into clean up the mess, Howard.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:35 pm
  • JustTheTip wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:
    JustTheTip wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:I'm not saying, I'm just saying...


    Different how? It was like they put Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi into a blender turned it on puree and dumped it into a glass. Not at all a fanboy and could enjoy the movie for what it was, but hardly original even within the series.


    Totally. Bringing back Jabba was just lazy writing.



    Ice Planet scene split up and reversed (planet escape at the beginning and bunker bombardment at the end), throne scene where Vader is conflicted and kills his master (the result of this went a different direction at least and because it had too), abbreviated swamp (island) training of the hero (during which the hero faces herself in a vision), luke I am your father cross galaxy communication (a bit more advanced), ewoks, han solo (a little more lacking a conscience) offering to help for a price.

    Those are just the obvious ones off the top of my head. There are others off the top of my head I didn't list because an argument can be made for "original material" and I don't see it as important enough to waste energy debating it.


    There's a difference between remake/rehash and parallel/homage. The things you're bringing up are intentional parallels. Star Wars has always been about cycles and familiarity. Abrams did a bit too much in TFA in most people's opinions, and I understand. Johnson did a much better job in TLJ with symbolism and parallels, doing old things in new ways and doing new things in old ways. If you feel he did too much that's fair, I happen to think he did a great job. Abrams with Episode IX, I don't necessarily have the same confidence at this point. I hope he gets a lot of in input from Johnson and the other writers.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:44 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:
    JustTheTip wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:
    JustTheTip wrote:
    Different how? It was like they put Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi into a blender turned it on puree and dumped it into a glass. Not at all a fanboy and could enjoy the movie for what it was, but hardly original even within the series.


    Totally. Bringing back Jabba was just lazy writing.



    Ice Planet scene split up and reversed (planet escape at the beginning and bunker bombardment at the end), throne scene where Vader is conflicted and kills his master (the result of this went a different direction at least and because it had too), abbreviated swamp (island) training of the hero (during which the hero faces herself in a vision), luke I am your father cross galaxy communication (a bit more advanced), ewoks, han solo (a little more lacking a conscience) offering to help for a price.

    Those are just the obvious ones off the top of my head. There are others off the top of my head I didn't list because an argument can be made for "original material" and I don't see it as important enough to waste energy debating it.


    There's a difference between remake/rehash and parallel/homage. The things you're bringing up are intentional parallels. Star Wars has always been about cycles and familiarity. Abrams did a bit too much in TFA in most people's opinions, and I understand. Johnson did a much better job in TLJ with symbolism and parallels, doing old things in new ways and doing new things in old ways. If you feel he did too much that's fair, I happen to think he did a great job. Abrams with Episode IX, I don't necessarily have the same confidence at this point. I hope he gets a lot of in input from Johnson and the other writers.


    Also, there is not one story element in all of fiction that is new anymore. It's all old hat by this point, and Joseph Campbell made us all unable to not notice this 70 years ago. What's important now isn't whether or not the story is original, it's whether or not it's told well, and The Last Jedi is told very well.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:51 pm
  • This is funny. Keep on. I shall give my opinion probably next week some time....after the first of the year. I am still kinda digesting the information that I got from the movie and the previous one that I walked out on. Just thought I would throw this out there tho. Go whackamole.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:09 pm
  • This is a bit long, so bare with me.

    A lot of the complaints I see online about The Last Jedi seem to come down to people disliking the portrayal of Luke Skywalker as a hero who failed. The thought that the man who saw good in Darth Vader could possibly consider murdering his own nephew in cold blood. Well, after my second viewing of the film I turned this question over in my head. Sorry, this is a bit of a read, but here is the conclusion I came to:

    To start, what is the first way we ever hear Luke described in the original Star Wars by any of the other characters? In case you forget, it was Aunt Beru, who, shortly after Luke stormed out at dinner, upset at his uncle for asking him to stay on the moisture farm another year, said “Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him.” The italicized text is important. On that I will base my argument.

    Now, go back the the prequel trilogy, and ask yourself a question: Why did Anakin fall to the Dark Side? Certainly, he was angry and fearful, but more importantly, I believe, is that those emotions can be controlled. I argue the reason Anakin fell to the Dark Side was down to his complete lack of impulse control, which he displayed throughout the prequels.

    Let's start with The Phantom Menace. Admittedly, Anakin is just a boy in this, and a 9 year old with impulse control is a rare thing indeed. But still, even here we find seeds of Anakin's impatience. During the Battle of Naboo, Qui-Gon told Anakin to find a safe place to hide and stay their. Now, Qui-Gon should have left him on the Queen's ship, but the focus here is on Anakin's failures, not Qui-Gon's, and Anakin, after climbing in a fighter, decides to fire it up to help in the fight. Now, in the end, he helped more than hurt, so it didn't matter much, and this is only the first example.

    Now on to Attack of the Clones. Anakin's most grevious impulse failures. Here, he ignores his assignment to follow a dream, murders people purely in a desire to hurt those who hurt him, and then, after he started to regain some control, decides to ignore his orders and go to rescue Obi-Wan. In the gunship, if Obi-Wan hadn't been there, Anakin would have let Dooku go out of personal desire. He lacks even the semblence of impulse control in this film.

    Which almost makes Revenge of the Sith Anakin look staid by comparison. He requires urging to kill Dooku, and tries, really tries, to follow Mace Windu's order to stay in the temple. But in the end, Anakin once again allows his impulses to rule him, and this time, the whole galaxy paid.

    Now lets move on to Luke. Too much of his father in him. Admittedly, he listens to Obi-Wan's advice throughout A New Hope. It serves him well, and the only real issue he has is convincing Han and Chewie to go rescue Leia on the Death Star, but much like Anakin in The Phantom Menace, this works out for him, which reassures his confidence.

    But now we come to the pivotal moment, The Empire Strikes Back. In this film, Luke shows all the same poor judgement Anakin did in Attack of the Clones. He ignores Yoda's assertion that he didn't need his weapons in the Dark Side cave, which is why he saw himself in Vader. Then, when he saw visions of Han and Leia in pain, he ignored Yoda and Obi-Wan and left, costing him both his innocence and his hand. Also, you could make the argument that he made an escape more difficult for Leia and Chewie, as they ended up having to go back for him, although this is hit and miss, as if Luke didn't go, R2-D2 wouldn't have saved the day. So 50/50.

    So all this leads to Return of the Jedi, where it is abundantly clear that Luke has taken all the lessons to heart and shows the self control his father never did. He doesn't want to fight him, and he does a good job of avoiding it until.... and this is the very key to my argument... Vader finds Luke's weakness, Leia. And in this moment, Luke shows all the impulse control of a charging rhino. He is violent and angry and fearsome in his response, and easily defeats his father, cutting off his mechanical hand.... and is reminded of the lesson he learned in his first duel with Vader. Where his lack of control had gotten him, and Luke returns to his senses, and throws away his lightsaber.

    And that right there is my point. The only difference between Vader and Luke is the lessons they learned about controlling their emotions. In the movie, Luke says he saw Ben/Kylo destroy everything he holds dear. I argue that the night Luke looked into his mind, he was likely, even for the most minute second, being influenced by the Dark Side, and even in the film, Luke says the thought is fleeting, and left as quickly as it came. Long enough for him to ignite his Lightsaber, which was long enough to regret it.

    So I argue, what makes Luke different, and better, isn't the fact that he doesn't get impulses like that, it's that he would never act on them. This is why he is still a hero, no matter his failures.

    Sorry if this is TL, DR, but I hope you give it a read, anyway.
    Last edited by Maulbert on Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:23 pm
  • Good stuff. Been pretty frustrating seeing people complain about the idea of Luke trying to kill young Ben but they all seem to miss the entire point: Luke DIDN'T kill him. Didn't even actually try to. Just thought about it for the briefest moment and was instantly ashamed in his weakness.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:04 pm
  • Oh and I've actually seen multipe people complain that 3PO's red arm wasn't explained, and they have the nerve to blame that on Rian Johnson. This is why I trust so few people's criticism as being thought out and legitimate.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:20 am
  • Oh, and don't get me started on the people who are confused at Leia being alive at the end of the movie. So many comments on how there were "so many opportunities" to kill her off and give her a heroic death... CARRIE FISHER DIDN'T DIE until after the movie was done filming. She was literally still alive. There were no thoughts of how to kill her off because nobody expected her to die IN REAL LIFE. It would have taken massive rewrites and reshoots to kill her in this movie. The outrage is asinine and ridiculous and undermines all the legitimate criticisms.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:44 pm
  • solved it
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:08 pm
  • :lol:
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:56 pm
  • Maulbert wrote:This is a bit long, so bare with me.

    A lot of the complaints I see online about The Last Jedi seem to come down to people disliking the portrayal of Luke Skywalker as a hero who failed. The thought that the man who saw good in Darth Vader could possibly consider murdering his own nephew in cold blood. Well, after my second viewing of the film I turned this question over in my head. Sorry, this is a bit of a read, but here is the conclusion I came to:

    To start, what is the first way we ever hear Luke described in the original Star Wars by any of the other characters? In case you forget, it was Aunt Beru, who, shortly after Luke stormed out at dinner, upset at his uncle for asking him to stay on the moisture farm another year, said “Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him.” The italicized text is important. On that I will base my argument.

    Now, go back the the prequel trilogy, and ask yourself a question: Why did Anakin fall to the Dark Side? Certainly, he was angry and fearful, but more importantly, I believe, is that those emotions can be controlled. I argue the reason Anakin fell to the Dark Side was down to his complete lack of impulse control, which he displayed throughout the prequels.

    Let's start with The Phantom Menace. Admittedly, Anakin is just a boy in this, and a 9 year old with impulse control is a rare thing indeed. But still, even here we find seeds of Anakin's impatience. During the Battle of Naboo, Qui-Gon told Anakin to find a safe place to hide and stay their. Now, Qui-Gon should have left him on the Queen's ship, but the focus here is on Anakin's failures, not Qui-Gon's, and Anakin, after climbing in a fighter, decides to fire it up to help in the fight. Now, in the end, he helped more than hurt, so it didn't matter much, and this is only the first example.

    Now on to Attack of the Clones. Anakin's most grevious impulse failures. Here, he ignores his assignment to follow a dream, murders people purely in a desire to hurt those who hurt him, and then, after he started to regain some control, decides to ignore his orders and go to rescue Obi-Wan. In the gunship, if Obi-Wan hadn't been there, Anakin would have let Dooku go out of personal desire. He lacks even the semblence of impulse control in this film.

    Which almost makes Revenge of the Sith Anakin look staid by comparison. He requires urging to kill Dooku, and tries, really tries, to follow Mace Windu's order to stay in the temple. But in the end, Anakin once again allows his impulses to rule him, and this time, the whole galaxy paid.

    Now lets move on to Luke. Too much of his father in him. Admittedly, he listens to Obi-Wan's advice throughout A New Hope. It serves him well, and the only real issue he has is convincing Han and Chewie to go rescue Leia on the Death Star, but much like Anakin in The Phantom Menace, this works out for him, which reassures his confidence.

    But now we come to the pivotal moment, The Empire Strikes Back. In this film, Luke shows all the same poor judgement Anakin did in Attack of the Clones. He ignores Yoda's assertion that he didn't need his weapons in the Dark Side cave, which is why he saw himself in Vader. Then, when he saw visions of Han and Leia in pain, he ignored Yoda and Obi-Wan and left, costing him both his innocence and his hand. Also, you could make the argument that he made an escape more difficult for Leia and Chewie, as they ended up having to go back for him, although this is hit and miss, as if Luke didn't go, R2-D2 wouldn't have saved the day. So 50/50.

    So all this leads to Return of the Jedi, where it is abundantly clear that Luke has taken all the lessons to heart and shows the self control his father never did. He doesn't want to fight him, and he does a good job of avoiding it until.... and this is the very key to my argument... Vader finds Luke's weakness, Leia. And in this moment, Luke shows all the impulse control of a charging rhino. He is violent and angry and fearsome in his response, and easily defeats his father, cutting off his mechanical hand.... and is reminded of the lesson he learned in his first duel with Vader. Where his lack of control had gotten him, and Luke returns to his senses, and throws away his lightsaber.

    And that right there is my point. The only difference between Vader and Luke is the lessons they learned about controlling their emotions. In the movie, Luke says he saw Ben/Kylo destroy everything he holds dear. I argue that the night Luke looked into his mind, he was likely, even for the most minute second, being influenced by the Dark Side, and even in the film, Luke says the thought is fleeting, and left as quickly as it came. Long enough for him to ignite his Lightsaber, which was long enough to regret it.

    So I argue, what makes Luke different, and better, isn't the fact that he doesn't get impulses like that, it's that he would never act on them. This is why he is still a hero, no matter his failures.

    Sorry if this is TL, DR, but I hope you give it a read, anyway.


    The terminology may be not what I would do in a couple of places, but I will go with accepting this. Preach on.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:17 pm
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:26 am
  • Seahawkfan80 wrote:
    Maulbert wrote:This is a bit long, so bare with me.

    A lot of the complaints I see online about The Last Jedi seem to come down to people disliking the portrayal of Luke Skywalker as a hero who failed. The thought that the man who saw good in Darth Vader could possibly consider murdering his own nephew in cold blood. Well, after my second viewing of the film I turned this question over in my head. Sorry, this is a bit of a read, but here is the conclusion I came to:

    To start, what is the first way we ever hear Luke described in the original Star Wars by any of the other characters? In case you forget, it was Aunt Beru, who, shortly after Luke stormed out at dinner, upset at his uncle for asking him to stay on the moisture farm another year, said “Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him.” The italicized text is important. On that I will base my argument.

    Now, go back the the prequel trilogy, and ask yourself a question: Why did Anakin fall to the Dark Side? Certainly, he was angry and fearful, but more importantly, I believe, is that those emotions can be controlled. I argue the reason Anakin fell to the Dark Side was down to his complete lack of impulse control, which he displayed throughout the prequels.

    Let's start with The Phantom Menace. Admittedly, Anakin is just a boy in this, and a 9 year old with impulse control is a rare thing indeed. But still, even here we find seeds of Anakin's impatience. During the Battle of Naboo, Qui-Gon told Anakin to find a safe place to hide and stay their. Now, Qui-Gon should have left him on the Queen's ship, but the focus here is on Anakin's failures, not Qui-Gon's, and Anakin, after climbing in a fighter, decides to fire it up to help in the fight. Now, in the end, he helped more than hurt, so it didn't matter much, and this is only the first example.

    Now on to Attack of the Clones. Anakin's most grevious impulse failures. Here, he ignores his assignment to follow a dream, murders people purely in a desire to hurt those who hurt him, and then, after he started to regain some control, decides to ignore his orders and go to rescue Obi-Wan. In the gunship, if Obi-Wan hadn't been there, Anakin would have let Dooku go out of personal desire. He lacks even the semblence of impulse control in this film.

    Which almost makes Revenge of the Sith Anakin look staid by comparison. He requires urging to kill Dooku, and tries, really tries, to follow Mace Windu's order to stay in the temple. But in the end, Anakin once again allows his impulses to rule him, and this time, the whole galaxy paid.

    Now lets move on to Luke. Too much of his father in him. Admittedly, he listens to Obi-Wan's advice throughout A New Hope. It serves him well, and the only real issue he has is convincing Han and Chewie to go rescue Leia on the Death Star, but much like Anakin in The Phantom Menace, this works out for him, which reassures his confidence.

    But now we come to the pivotal moment, The Empire Strikes Back. In this film, Luke shows all the same poor judgement Anakin did in Attack of the Clones. He ignores Yoda's assertion that he didn't need his weapons in the Dark Side cave, which is why he saw himself in Vader. Then, when he saw visions of Han and Leia in pain, he ignored Yoda and Obi-Wan and left, costing him both his innocence and his hand. Also, you could make the argument that he made an escape more difficult for Leia and Chewie, as they ended up having to go back for him, although this is hit and miss, as if Luke didn't go, R2-D2 wouldn't have saved the day. So 50/50.

    So all this leads to Return of the Jedi, where it is abundantly clear that Luke has taken all the lessons to heart and shows the self control his father never did. He doesn't want to fight him, and he does a good job of avoiding it until.... and this is the very key to my argument... Vader finds Luke's weakness, Leia. And in this moment, Luke shows all the impulse control of a charging rhino. He is violent and angry and fearsome in his response, and easily defeats his father, cutting off his mechanical hand.... and is reminded of the lesson he learned in his first duel with Vader. Where his lack of control had gotten him, and Luke returns to his senses, and throws away his lightsaber.

    And that right there is my point. The only difference between Vader and Luke is the lessons they learned about controlling their emotions. In the movie, Luke says he saw Ben/Kylo destroy everything he holds dear. I argue that the night Luke looked into his mind, he was likely, even for the most minute second, being influenced by the Dark Side, and even in the film, Luke says the thought is fleeting, and left as quickly as it came. Long enough for him to ignite his Lightsaber, which was long enough to regret it.

    So I argue, what makes Luke different, and better, isn't the fact that he doesn't get impulses like that, it's that he would never act on them. This is why he is still a hero, no matter his failures.

    Sorry if this is TL, DR, but I hope you give it a read, anyway.


    The terminology may be not what I would do in a couple of places, but I will go with accepting this. Preach on.


    I didn't proof it afterwards, it was more stream of consciousness, but I thought it got the point across.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:57 pm
  • Saw it a second time.

    I warmed up to Luke's action at the end. Both his ability to astral-project himself and the cost it would inflict on him (therefore legitimizing his death) were actually hinted at earlier in the movie. I guess I just hadn't made the connection right away.

    Still have issues with the plot, though. It just feels like Johnson went for each payoff too fast, whereas one more scene to buoy up each subplot would have driven each one home. One more scene with Snoke would have made him less of a placeholder. One more Kylo/Rey scene would have deepened their connection. One more Rey/Luke scene would have made the whole training period feel more meaningful. Instead, each felt rushed.

    Canto Bight was obviously an attempt to avoid making the movie a bottle show, so it still felt weird.

    And the whole "Holdo keeping Poe in the dark out of spite" plot hole was just dumb, servicing neither character well. Misunderstanding between characters is hard to pull off in movies because it feels too much like bad writing.

    It would have been much better if Holdo had just been playing things close to the vest because she suspected an Imperial spy on board (who would have turned out to be hiding the tracker on their person). That in turn could have eliminated the entire casino subplot, some unnecessary technobabble, and given Finn and Kelly more interesting things to do on the ship (like hunt down the spy). But again, that would have felt claustrophobic, I suppose.

    All in all, this trilogy is held together largely by terrific acting. One thing I'll always grant J.J. Abrams is his impeccable casting. Every interaction in VII made me want to see more of these characters in different combinations. Fisher and Dern acted the hell out of their one scene together in VIII, really convinced me of their history. VIII was probably the best single performance of Hamill's career. Ridley and Driver were terrific together. Lots of good stuff, and that's why I'm still intrigued to see IX, to see where these characters end up.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:06 pm
  • I think that's a pretty fair assessment. I agree with you about Holdo/Poe; a little something extra there to convince us the plan needed to be secret would have been easy and effective.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:48 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:All in all, this trilogy is held together largely by terrific acting. One thing I'll always grant J.J. Abrams is his impeccable casting. Every interaction in VII made me want to see more of these characters in different combinations. Fisher and Dern acted the hell out of their one scene together in VIII, really convinced me of their history. VIII was probably the best single performance of Hamill's career. Ridley and Driver were terrific together. Lots of good stuff, and that's why I'm still intrigued to see IX, to see where these characters end up.


    I agree. I think if TFA had been poorly cast or had poor chemistry, it could have been as bad as the prequels. Oscar Isaac might be the best actor of his generation, full stop. Daisy Ridley, who amusingly was told by J.J. on day one she was wooden, is far better than Hayden Christensen ever will be, and John Boyega, who really has had the most scenes opposite different actors in both films (seriously, he's shared scenes with most of the cast), has had phenomenal chemistry with Isaac, Ridley, and even Kelly Marie Tran in TLJ, even though I disliked that subplot. And that's not mentioning Adam Driver and several others. The prequels pretty much had just Liam Neeson, Ewan MacGregor, and Ian McDiarmid on their A game (Let's be honest, Natalie Portman, great actress, Star Wars is probably her worst work).
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:52 am
  • The new cast is really good, top to bottom. John Boyega is phenomenal. His comedic timing is off the charts. All respect to Driver and Isaac, Boyega might be the best performer on the roster. I'm not completely sold on Daisy's chops, generally speaking, only because I've only seen her as Rey. But she has Rey dialed in so hard it makes me look at Hamill as Luke in the OT just a little less impressed. But only a little.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:03 am
  • Btw, just saw this movie for the 8th time. I'm pretty settled on what I do and don't like, but the dos significantly outweigh the don'ts. I really love this movie. The last hour or so is probably the best Star Wars has to offer, in every incarnation. The first half (minus the initial space battle scene) is a little slow and drags a bit, between impactful scenes and setting up more important action later in the movie, but from about when Rey and Kylo touch hands in the hut, this movie is Star Wars in the most important, intimate way. Anybody who hates Rose or Porgs or broken Luke or Mary Sue Rey should be able to enjoy and appreciate it in this aspect or else they're just a miserable hater.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:55 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    All in all, this trilogy is held together largely by terrific acting. One thing I'll always grant J.J. Abrams is his impeccable casting. Every interaction in VII made me want to see more of these characters in different combinations.



    Polished young actors is one thing, but IMO the consequence of that is believability. Do you really believe Rey played by Daisy Ridley with her perfect skin, cheek bones and Abercrombie and Fitch model good looks is some orphan who picks up garbage on a crap planet?

    Abrams has done fine, but make no mistake these new movies are safe to be as PC as possible, and to appeal to the broadest possible audience. Which is fine, but as a lifelong Star Wars fans, that isn't interesting, or even compelling Sci-Fi.

    Taking risks is the most imperative component to great film making..............and it's CRYSTAL CLEAR that Disney and Abrams want nothing to do with taking risks to truly elevate the final chapter of Star Wars into great cinema.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:26 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:Do you really believe Rey played by Daisy Ridley with her perfect skin, cheek bones and Abercrombie and Fitch model good looks is some orphan who picks up garbage on a crap planet?


    I like my Star Wars gals pretty.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:38 am
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:Do you really believe Rey played by Daisy Ridley with her perfect skin, cheek bones and Abercrombie and Fitch model good looks is some orphan who picks up garbage on a crap planet?


    I like my Star Wars gals pretty.

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    Me too, but Lea's royalty, she should be attractive.
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