Mass Shootings

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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:07 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Pretty simple. Just like owning a vehicle all guns have to be insured. Not sure what the issue would be?

    And gun manufacturers can't be sued the same as everyone else. They have a few freebies they get.


    Use of vehicles create liability due to 6 million accidents a year. How many claims do you think firearms would generate annually?

    Other than strict liability i.e. no 3rd party carry over, what benefits do gun manufactures have?


    Not sure.

    But if an irresponsible owners gun was stolen, then said gun was used to mow down a Wal-Mart, having his insurance company be liable would certainly incentivise responsible ownership..



    In WA, if your firearm is ever stolen and you don't report it you could face a felony if its ever used in a crime.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:09 pm
  • Well I wonder how much help it would be if you could sue the FBI, Police and State for those screenings that are suppose to not allow purchases but oops slipped through a loop hole or we made a mistake and thought they were someone else or whatever.

    I have seen that a lot after the fact on some of these situations.

    Or they were backed up and didn't have the time tp properly screen and evaluate even though the person had been admitted for mental instability or had Federal crimes or acts of violence in their pasts.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:21 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:Well I wonder how much help it would be if you could sue the FBI, Police and State for those screenings that are suppose to not allow purchases but oops slipped through a loop hole or we made a mistake and thought they were someone else or whatever.

    I have seen that a lot after the fact on some of these situations.

    Or they were backed up and didn't have the time tp properly screen and evaluate even though the person had been admitted for mental instability or had Federal crimes or acts of violence in their pasts.


    Sovereign Immunity is a debatable topic, but ultimately it's other people's money. If you want an incentive for better performance by government employees restore accountability. Currently the barrier to termination for cause is sky high.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:25 pm
  • 2_0_6 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Pretty simple. Just like owning a vehicle all guns have to be insured. Not sure what the issue would be?

    And gun manufacturers can't be sued the same as everyone else. They have a few freebies they get.


    Use of vehicles create liability due to 6 million accidents a year. How many claims do you think firearms would generate annually?

    Other than strict liability i.e. no 3rd party carry over, what benefits do gun manufactures have?


    Not sure.

    But if an irresponsible owners gun was stolen, then said gun was used to mow down a Wal-Mart, having his insurance company be liable would certainly incentivise responsible ownership..



    In WA, if your firearm is ever stolen and you don't report it you could face a felony if its ever used in a crime.


    I'm not a "the government can fix it" lib like you. So I have no confidence the government's enforcement of existing laws will fix anything.

    Capitalism is the surest way to fix things.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:53 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:I did call people names. too But only because I think both sides are a*hole. Genuinely.


    If you run into an @$$h0le in the morning, you ran into an @$$h0le. If you run into a*hole all day, you're the @$$h0le.
    Raylan Givens


    Put this in the new Seahawks.net motto thread.


    If you run into an @$$h0le in the morning, you ran into an @$$h0le. If you run into a*hole all day, you're a member of Sehawks.net ??
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:32 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    Use of vehicles create liability due to 6 million accidents a year. How many claims do you think firearms would generate annually?

    Other than strict liability i.e. no 3rd party carry over, what benefits do gun manufactures have?


    Not sure.

    But if an irresponsible owners gun was stolen, then said gun was used to mow down a Wal-Mart, having his insurance company be liable would certainly incentivise responsible ownership..



    In WA, if your firearm is ever stolen and you don't report it you could face a felony if its ever used in a crime.


    I'm not a "the government can fix it" lib like you. So I have no confidence the government's enforcement of existing laws will fix anything.

    Capitalism is the surest way to fix things.

    "Capitalism" thinks the answer to the problem is to sell more guns. :laugh:
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:40 pm
  • sutz wrote:"Capitalism" thinks the answer to the problem is to sell more guns. :laugh:


    Capitalism isn't a philosophy, it's an economic method of responding to individual demand. If you have an issue with what the people are demanding you have an issue with the people. If gun sales are up (which they are) is because that's what the citizens want.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:54 pm
  • Insurance companies love capitalism too
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:04 pm
  • pehawk wrote:Insurance companies love capitalism too

    Insurance companies (like most corporations and industries) love mandates like the one you suggested. Regulatory capture is not capitalism.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:11 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Insurance companies love capitalism too

    Insurance companies (like most corporations and industries) love mandates like the one you suggested. Regulatory capture is not capitalism.


    Meh...insurance is required for a lot of things. And it helps keep things in check. It's not a perfect solution but it's better than banning guns or increasing federal spending to identify crazy people.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:15 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Insurance companies love capitalism too

    Insurance companies (like most corporations and industries) love mandates like the one you suggested. Regulatory capture is not capitalism.


    Meh...insurance is required for a lot of things. And it helps keep things in check. It's not a perfect solution but it's better than banning guns or increasing federal spending to identify crazy people.


    Or they could re open the facilities that used to care for these people so they are not running around without their medications and getting the care they need.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:34 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Insurance companies love capitalism too

    Insurance companies (like most corporations and industries) love mandates like the one you suggested. Regulatory capture is not capitalism.


    Meh...insurance is required for a lot of things. And it helps keep things in check. It's not a perfect solution but it's better than banning guns or increasing federal spending to identify crazy people.


    Or they could re open the facilities that used to care for these people so they are not running around without their medications and getting the care they need.


    That's socialized medicine, man. 2nd amendment types hate that more than civil rights. It'd be a full on tantrum.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:57 pm
  • pehawk wrote:That's socialized medicine, man. 2nd amendment types hate that more than civil rights. It'd be a full on tantrum.

    I'm a card carrying NRA member and a dyed in the wool libertarian. I fully support a return to involuntary commitment as long as due process is given.

    The money is going to be spent one way or the other and I'd rather if go to State entities that can be at least somewhat accountable as opposed to the ThriveNYC non-profit slush funds of the world.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:05 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:That's socialized medicine, man. 2nd amendment types hate that more than civil rights. It'd be a full on tantrum.

    I'm a card carrying NRA member and a dyed in the wool libertarian. I fully support a return to involuntary commitment as long as due process is given.

    The money is going to be spent one way or the other and I'd rather if go to State entities that can be at least somewhat accountable as opposed to the ThriveNYC non-profit slush funds of the world.


    So, everyone gets free mental care? Or, you're required to have a psych evaluation before buying a gun? How would this work?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:33 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:That's socialized medicine, man. 2nd amendment types hate that more than civil rights. It'd be a full on tantrum.

    I'm a card carrying NRA member and a dyed in the wool libertarian. I fully support a return to involuntary commitment as long as due process is given.

    The money is going to be spent one way or the other and I'd rather if go to State entities that can be at least somewhat accountable as opposed to the ThriveNYC non-profit slush funds of the world.


    So, everyone gets free mental care? Or, you're required to have a psych evaluation before buying a gun? How would this work?


    Are you being intentionally obtuse? Had the impression you were sharp regardless of your trollistic schtick.

    Involuntary commitment is about removing a danger to society (or self) from free range status. Not purchasing a firearm is a side effect just like not driving, wandering the streets preaching about our reptilian overlords, etc.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:35 pm
  • peachesenregalia wrote:Involuntary commitment....

    What year is it?

    Hopefully the year when the pendulum swings back toward a sensible approach to mental health as opposed to the current subsidization of mental disorder.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:48 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    JustTheTip wrote:And yet nobody is pushing to regulate the 1st amendment even though technology has had (at a civilian level) a much larger impact on that than semi-automatic weapons have had on the 2nd amendment.


    The right has often threatened and discussed changing the 1st Amendment so they can sue over freedom of the press.

    https://theweek.com/speedreads/695695/r ... -amendment

    btw, the 1st Amendment has been refined and changed through MANY court rulings and Supreme Court decisions.

    Miller vs. California in 1973 is just one example

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California

    So yes, most US citizens are open to changing our Bill of Rights and Amendments when it comes to updating our laws as the times change.

    Again, love coming back after the weekend as seeing two full pages of more 2nd Amendment apologists deflecting and changing the subject because they have absolutely no logical leg to stand on over this vague and antiquated Amendment that gun nuts cling to like grim death.


    I see more deflecting from you than anybody else in this thread. You really have zero idea of who I am or which side of anything I stand on, but because of a single statement you assume I am a 2nd Amendment apologist gun nut.

    I in fact enjoy having rational conversations with people of differing opinions. You don't need to agree to understand and often learn something.

    On the flip side, I absolutely cannot stand conversations where opinions are provided as fact, contrary opinions are unacceptable and people of those contrary opinions are labeled with rude names. I dislike this even more so when those who are the offenders of this share the same opinion as me. I feel that their contribution is devaluing my opinion.

    Back on subject, if you don't think 1st Ammendment has any signifigant impact on mass shootings try this in face to face situations where mass killings are being discussed. Ask the people there who Eric Harris is. Then ask them who Sayfullo Habibullaevich Saipov is. 80%+ of people I have done this with know who Eric is. Less than 5% know who Sayfullo is. The most common answer I receive for Sayfullo is "9/11 hijacker".

    Point being that one of the reasons a gun is the weapon of choice in America may be availability, but another certainly is because the killer knows using a gun means the media will make sure their name is not forgotten.

    You think eliminating guns as a possibility will stop those who want to do harm? 9/11 was accomplished with box cutters. Type "Truck Attack" into google. For a particularly gruesome example add Nice to that search.

    I am sure many of your points are valid. An equal number seem to be uninformed and/or naive. How about taking a breath and trying to have a conversation.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:05 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:That's socialized medicine, man. 2nd amendment types hate that more than civil rights. It'd be a full on tantrum.

    I'm a card carrying NRA member and a dyed in the wool libertarian. I fully support a return to involuntary commitment as long as due process is given.

    The money is going to be spent one way or the other and I'd rather if go to State entities that can be at least somewhat accountable as opposed to the ThriveNYC non-profit slush funds of the world.


    So, everyone gets free mental care? Or, you're required to have a psych evaluation before buying a gun? How would this work?


    Are you being intentionally obtuse? Had the impression you were sharp regardless of your trollistic schtick.

    Involuntary commitment is about removing a danger to society (or self) from free range status. Not purchasing a firearm is a side effect just like not driving, wandering the streets preaching about our reptilian overlords, etc.


    I'm just trying to figure out how this would work and how it would reduce mass shootings?

    In the case of El Paso and Dayton each would've been involuntarily committed? Who makes that determination and/or how are they identified as prospects for committal?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:15 pm
  • pehawk wrote:I'm just trying to figure out how this would work and how it would reduce mass shootings?

    In the case of El Paso and Dayton each would've been involuntarily committed? Who makes that determination and/or how are they identified as prospects for committal?

    No guarantees in life and honestly I don't know enough about the background of these two in particular.

    That said...The system is already there. 72hr psych hold with professional evaluation and determination of commitment via a Judge. The issue is the current standards are applied too restrictively and the same population of troubled individuals is continually cycled through the system.

    Would potential spree killers end up committed? Hard to say, but maybe the 72hrs gets them through the crisis / tipping point.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:30 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    pehawk wrote:I'm just trying to figure out how this would work and how it would reduce mass shootings?

    In the case of El Paso and Dayton each would've been involuntarily committed? Who makes that determination and/or how are they identified as prospects for committal?

    No guarantees in life and honestly I don't know enough about the background of these two in particular.

    That said...The system is already there. 72hr psych hold with professional evaluation and determination of commitment via a Judge. The issue is the current standards are applied too restrictively and the same population of troubled individuals is continually cycled through the system.

    Would potential spree killers end up committed? Hard to say, but maybe the 72hrs gets them through the crisis / tipping point.


    Sounds unrealistic.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:38 pm
  • pehawk wrote:Sounds unrealistic.

    Image

    It's the logical extension of the Red Flag laws. Can't do those without due process and resulting action.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:09 pm
  • And Shapely. That dude is definitely snitching.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:40 pm
  • Wenhawk wrote:
    hawksfansinceday1 wrote:
    sutz wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Oh hey, look - someone who's actually having the necessary conversation. Albeit on a toe-dipping level.

    Hard to discuss this issue without going political. :229031_shrug:

    Already totally political but apparently the owner is going to pick and choose what political stuff he allows here and what he doesn't (like things that are in opposition to his political views?). Absolutely his right but sure seems dictatorial to me.



    So you know what my political opinions are?

    I just see a social topic that has some great perspectives.


    HawkSince87 wrote:Hahahaha. You say the other side (right) is corrupt. Like the left isn’t. Hilarious stuff.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:39 pm
  • Gun violence isn't even in the same realm with the effects alcohol has on society, yet it's everyone's top priority and the hottest topic.

    Alcohol related deaths in the US each year: 88,000

    Non suicide gun deaths each year: 13,000 - Haven't looked in depth here as to how many of these shooters are under the influence of alcohol, how many of these deaths are self defense, and how many of these shooters are gang bangers killing other gang bangers?


    "In addition to the shocking number of deaths linked to alcohol, there are a number of other social and public health problems tied to the freedom to consume these products. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism says more than 10 percent of children in the United States live with at least one parent suffering from alcoholism, and an article published by the American Journal of Preventative Medicine estimates the total national and state cost of “excessive alcohol consumption” in 2010 was $249 billion. Other problems include rampant use of alcohol by teenagers, alcohol-related domestic violence, and countless other societal ills." https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... n-alcohol/
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:03 pm
  • massari wrote:Gun violence isn't even in the same realm with the effects alcohol has on society, yet it's everyone's top priority and the hottest topic.

    Alcohol related deaths in the US each year: 88,000

    Non suicide gun deaths each year: 13,000 - Haven't looked in depth here. How many of these shooters are under the influence of alcohol, how many of these deaths are self defense, and how many of these shooters are gang bangers killing other gang bangers?


    "In addition to the shocking number of deaths linked to alcohol, there are a number of other social and public health problems tied to the freedom to consume these products. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism says more than 10 percent of children in the United States live with at least one parent suffering from alcoholism, and an article published by the American Journal of Preventative Medicine estimates the total national and state cost of “excessive alcohol consumption” in 2010 was $249 billion. Other problems include rampant use of alcohol by teenagers, alcohol-related domestic violence, and countless other societal ills." https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... n-alcohol/


    Another case in which people are actively trying to curb the causes. Initiatives are created to stop underage drinking and to limit drunk driving, just for instance. Meanwhile, it's always whataboutism in which this kind of worse "ill" is brought up as a counterpoint. It's bizarre; most people don't want to take your stupid guns away -- they want "responsible" gun owners to put in place the same kinds of restraints as just about every other dangerous element on the planet. Instead, gun owners insist that their 2A rights are infringed if they can't have military weapons.

    And not one gun owner in favor of the 2nd amendment likes to bring up that the current interpretation was brought about a fairly recent Supreme Court decision because the 1939 decision to put in context of a local and state military was scrapped. So, historically even, people realized that having unfettered access to guns was plain stupid and the government had the right to regulate. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:51 pm
  • In about 20 years, 3d printers will be able to make some sophisticated firearms. If we pass more restrictions, an underground market will step in and serve the needs. It will be as easy to get as ecstasy, cocaine, or heroin. Then what?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:53 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:Well in Russia the States there fought against the Red army and achieved independence, they didn't have as many guns as we do, I think they had Jets and Tanks also.

    Yes it was a bloody mess.

    Many would not fire on their own people that were part of the army there from those states. I would expect the same thing here.


    I was a military veteran of 10 years. I talked many times with my peers about how we would react if we were forced to fight our own country and I'd say more than half of the people I knew would not kill our own under most circumstances. Not sure what this has to do with this debate but just wanted to add to this topics that is starting to get more political than we want.

    **Stay on topic and try and keep politics out of it**

    You cannot assume someone is Right, Left, or in between from any one position.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:00 am
  • Sarlacc83 wrote:Initiatives are created to stop underage drinking and to limit drunk driving, just for instance.

    As they are with guns too.

    Like the article says, there is not one bill in Congress, one federal lawmaker or one prominent media outlet calling for stricter national limits on alcohol despite the facts in my op.


    Sarlacc83 wrote:most people don't want to take your stupid guns away -- they want "responsible" gun owners to put in place the same kinds of restraints as just about every other dangerous element on the planet.

    You mean like alcohol? jfk

    Not a gun person either btw, crackpot. Maybe you're an alcoholic.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:08 am
  • chris98251 wrote:Well I wonder how much help it would be if you could sue the FBI, Police and State for those screenings that are suppose to not allow purchases but oops slipped through a loop hole or we made a mistake and thought they were someone else or whatever.

    I have seen that a lot after the fact on some of these situations.

    Or they were backed up and didn't have the time to properly screen and evaluate even though the person had been admitted for mental instability or had Federal crimes or acts of violence in their pasts.


    I imagine a reseller would be held liable if they improperly sold a gun. They are as dependant upon a system as everyone else.

    I think anyone who doesn't think we should find ways to reduce the mass shooting is an complete unempathetic @$$h0le.

    Unfortunately I don't think anyone can solve this type of problem. People who want to kills people for whatever the hell reason they have will find a means. Stealing weapons, driving into crowds, homemade bombs, poison, or whatever else.

    My suggestion is to get to the root of the problem with these type of people's brains as fast as f*** possible. I think we should just start the Minority Report stuff sooner than later. Let's chip everybody, monitor every online transaction, phone call, text message. I bet Amazon, Apple, and Google could have prevented at least a few of these things if they had better algorithms. Actually I know they could have, I have no doubt in my mind every damn thing I do online is being used to sell me new $h!t. Let's take that data and start predicting and catching these f*** terrorists.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:14 am
  • massari wrote:Gun violence isn't even in the same realm with the effects alcohol has on society, yet it's everyone's top priority and the hottest topic.

    Alcohol related deaths in the US each year: 88,000

    Non suicide gun deaths each year: 13,000 - Haven't looked in depth here as to how many of these shooters are under the influence of alcohol, how many of these deaths are self defense, and how many of these shooters are gang bangers killing other gang bangers?


    "In addition to the shocking number of deaths linked to alcohol, there are a number of other social and public health problems tied to the freedom to consume these products. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism says more than 10 percent of children in the United States live with at least one parent suffering from alcoholism, and an article published by the American Journal of Preventative Medicine estimates the total national and state cost of “excessive alcohol consumption” in 2010 was $249 billion. Other problems include rampant use of alcohol by teenagers, alcohol-related domestic violence, and countless other societal ills." https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... n-alcohol/


    How may of these killers drink alcohol regularly or have been seriously intoxicated?

    Still think all the Med's for prescribed nowadays has a negative (possible irreversible) impact to people's brains.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:55 am
  • Image

    Image
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:17 am
  • massari wrote:
    Sarlacc83 wrote:Initiatives are created to stop underage drinking and to limit drunk driving, just for instance.

    As they are with guns too.

    Like the article says, there is not one bill in Congress, one federal lawmaker or one prominent media outlet calling for stricter national limits on alcohol despite the facts in my op.


    Sarlacc83 wrote:most people don't want to take your stupid guns away -- they want "responsible" gun owners to put in place the same kinds of restraints as just about every other dangerous element on the planet.

    You mean like alcohol? jfk

    Not a gun person either btw, crackpot. Maybe you're an alcoholic.


    *yawn* At least, given your response (and despite your obvious protests otherwise), I can tell that hit home since you doubled down on it.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:37 am
  • 2_0_6 wrote:Image

    Image


    g**
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:51 am
  • pehawk wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:Image

    Image


    g**



    We accept you regardless, it's ok.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:31 am
  • massari wrote:Gun violence isn't even in the same realm with the effects alcohol has on society, yet it's everyone's top priority and the hottest topic.

    Alcohol related deaths in the US each year: 88,000

    Non suicide gun deaths each year: 13,000 - Haven't looked in depth here as to how many of these shooters are under the influence of alcohol, how many of these deaths are self defense, and how many of these shooters are gang bangers killing other gang bangers?


    "In addition to the shocking number of deaths linked to alcohol, there are a number of other social and public health problems tied to the freedom to consume these products. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism says more than 10 percent of children in the United States live with at least one parent suffering from alcoholism, and an article published by the American Journal of Preventative Medicine estimates the total national and state cost of “excessive alcohol consumption” in 2010 was $249 billion. Other problems include rampant use of alcohol by teenagers, alcohol-related domestic violence, and countless other societal ills." https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... n-alcohol/


    The difference is just about all Americans have been and will continue to be perfectly willing to listen to and change our state and federal drinking laws. Just as we've done over the years raising legal drinking ages and lowering DUI limits.

    There is no energy and political side to any other safety concern, so why is there with guns and the 2nd Amendment?

    IMO that's really at the heart of this matter. We can argue all day long about what's worse than guns, but no one's up in arms (literally) over changing seatbelt laws, drinking laws, health laws, car safety regulations, etc.........but for some reason we sure are hell are with gun laws.

    That is just a non starter with a very large population of politicians and voters.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:36 am
  • Wenhawk wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Well in Russia the States there fought against the Red army and achieved independence, they didn't have as many guns as we do, I think they had Jets and Tanks also.

    Yes it was a bloody mess.

    Many would not fire on their own people that were part of the army there from those states. I would expect the same thing here.


    I was a military veteran of 10 years. I talked many times with my peers about how we would react if we were forced to fight our own country and I'd say more than half of the people I knew would not kill our own under most circumstances. Not sure what this has to do with this debate but just wanted to add to this topics that is starting to get more political than we want.

    **Stay on topic and try and keep politics out of it**

    You cannot assume someone is Right, Left, or in between from any one position.


    It was more a point of people rising up regardless of if their government has high tech weapons.
    chris98251
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:42 am
  • Wenhawk wrote:
    massari wrote:Gun violence isn't even in the same realm with the effects alcohol has on society, yet it's everyone's top priority and the hottest topic.

    Alcohol related deaths in the US each year: 88,000

    Non suicide gun deaths each year: 13,000 - Haven't looked in depth here as to how many of these shooters are under the influence of alcohol, how many of these deaths are self defense, and how many of these shooters are gang bangers killing other gang bangers?


    "In addition to the shocking number of deaths linked to alcohol, there are a number of other social and public health problems tied to the freedom to consume these products. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism says more than 10 percent of children in the United States live with at least one parent suffering from alcoholism, and an article published by the American Journal of Preventative Medicine estimates the total national and state cost of “excessive alcohol consumption” in 2010 was $249 billion. Other problems include rampant use of alcohol by teenagers, alcohol-related domestic violence, and countless other societal ills." https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... n-alcohol/


    How may of these killers drink alcohol regularly or have been seriously intoxicated?

    Still think all the Med's for prescribed nowadays has a negative (possible irreversible) impact to people's brains.

    I'd be willing to bet almost all of them had used marijuana somewhat recently too.
    Tical21
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:51 am
  • Tical21 wrote:
    Wenhawk wrote:
    massari wrote:Gun violence isn't even in the same realm with the effects alcohol has on society, yet it's everyone's top priority and the hottest topic.

    Alcohol related deaths in the US each year: 88,000

    Non suicide gun deaths each year: 13,000 - Haven't looked in depth here as to how many of these shooters are under the influence of alcohol, how many of these deaths are self defense, and how many of these shooters are gang bangers killing other gang bangers?


    "In addition to the shocking number of deaths linked to alcohol, there are a number of other social and public health problems tied to the freedom to consume these products. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism says more than 10 percent of children in the United States live with at least one parent suffering from alcoholism, and an article published by the American Journal of Preventative Medicine estimates the total national and state cost of “excessive alcohol consumption” in 2010 was $249 billion. Other problems include rampant use of alcohol by teenagers, alcohol-related domestic violence, and countless other societal ills." https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... n-alcohol/


    How may of these killers drink alcohol regularly or have been seriously intoxicated?

    Still think all the Med's for prescribed nowadays has a negative (possible irreversible) impact to people's brains.

    I'd be willing to bet almost all of them had used marijuana somewhat recently too.


    And most of them have also eaten potatoes at least once in their lives. Proof positive!!
    LymonHawk
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:07 pm
  • LymonHawk wrote:And most of them have also eaten potatoes at least once in their lives. Proof positive!!

    And potatoes are used to make Vodka, the circle is closed.
    Osprey
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:38 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:The difference is just about all Americans have been and will continue to be perfectly willing to listen to and change our state and federal drinking laws. Just as we've done over the years raising legal drinking ages and lowering DUI limits.

    There is no energy and political side to any other safety concern, so why is there with guns and the 2nd Amendment?

    IMO that's really at the heart of this matter. We can argue all day long about what's worse than guns, but no one's up in arms (literally) over changing seatbelt laws, drinking laws, health laws, car safety regulations, etc.........but for some reason we sure are hell are with gun laws.

    That is just a non starter with a very large population of politicians and voters.


    The difference is it's the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution i.e. a Right, not a Privilege. As such restrictions are limited to Time, Place, and Manner a much higher bar than the other things you mentioned. Many of the 'common sense' ideas people throw out don't meet that bar and even the 9th Circus has acknowledged it.
    Osprey
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:05 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:The difference is just about all Americans have been and will continue to be perfectly willing to listen to and change our state and federal drinking laws. Just as we've done over the years raising legal drinking ages and lowering DUI limits.

    There is no energy and political side to any other safety concern, so why is there with guns and the 2nd Amendment?

    IMO that's really at the heart of this matter. We can argue all day long about what's worse than guns, but no one's up in arms (literally) over changing seatbelt laws, drinking laws, health laws, car safety regulations, etc.........but for some reason we sure are hell are with gun laws.

    That is just a non starter with a very large population of politicians and voters.


    The difference is it's the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution i.e. a Right, not a Privilege. As such restrictions are limited to Time, Place, and Manner a much higher bar than the other things you mentioned. Many of the 'common sense' ideas people throw out don't meet that bar and even the 9th Circus has acknowledged it.


    This doesn't excuse the weird energy and vitriol that changing gun laws invokes in people. It goes WAY beyond just being an Amendment, of which we've changed (as well as others) many times since the late 1700's when the Bill of Rights was written.

    So again, why is THIS so divisive? It's not just it being an Amendment, most people are just fine with amending and changing the other Amendments. But nope, not this one.
    Sgt. Largent
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:08 pm
  • The Second Amendment protects the 1st, and I'm just not talking about AR's & AK's.


    The Second Amendment protects a fundamental right and should be read broadly because it implements the right of self-defense. Self-defense is the ultimate right of all individuals to preserve life. The rights to a free press, free speech, assembly, and religion are extremely important — but none of them matters very much if you can’t defend your own life against aggression. None of them matters very much when a government is fully armed and its citizens are disarmed.
    2_0_6
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:19 pm
  • 2_0_6 wrote:The Second Amendment protects the 1st, and I'm just not talking about AR's & AK's.


    The Second Amendment protects a fundamental right and should be read broadly because it implements the right of self-defense. Self-defense is the ultimate right of all individuals to preserve life. The rights to a free press, free speech, assembly, and religion are extremely important — but none of them matters very much if you can’t defend your own life against aggression. None of them matters very much when a government is fully armed and its citizens are disarmed.


    Right to healthcare?
    pehawk
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:21 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:The Second Amendment protects the 1st, and I'm just not talking about AR's & AK's.


    The Second Amendment protects a fundamental right and should be read broadly because it implements the right of self-defense. Self-defense is the ultimate right of all individuals to preserve life. The rights to a free press, free speech, assembly, and religion are extremely important — but none of them matters very much if you can’t defend your own life against aggression. None of them matters very much when a government is fully armed and its citizens are disarmed.


    Right to healthcare?



    Whatever you want chief. The world is yours.
    2_0_6
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:38 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:This doesn't excuse the weird energy and vitriol that changing gun laws invokes in people. It goes WAY beyond just being an Amendment, of which we've changed (as well as others) many times since the late 1700's when the Bill of Rights was written.

    So again, why is THIS so divisive? It's not just it being an Amendment, most people are just fine with amending and changing the other Amendments. But nope, not this one.


    Might want to study up on your history. 17 times (post Bill of Rights) in 228 years with several being related so really fewer topics than that. Not a one was ratified without years of debate.

    As 206 points out, there's a reason it's in the Constitution. If you disagree with that reasoning start a movement for a Constitutional Amendment and stop trying to subvert a Constitutionally protected Right by unconstitutional means.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:56 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:This doesn't excuse the weird energy and vitriol that changing gun laws invokes in people. It goes WAY beyond just being an Amendment, of which we've changed (as well as others) many times since the late 1700's when the Bill of Rights was written.

    So again, why is THIS so divisive? It's not just it being an Amendment, most people are just fine with amending and changing the other Amendments. But nope, not this one.


    Might want to study up on your history. 17 times (post Bill of Rights) in 228 years with several being related so really fewer topics than that. Not a one was ratified without years of debate.

    As 206 points out, there's a reason it's in the Constitution. If you disagree with that reasoning start a movement for a Constitutional Amendment and stop trying to subvert a Constitutionally protected Right by unconstitutional means.


    The authors of that amendment were a*hole. They didnt have cell phones
    pehawk
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:00 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    Osprey wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:This doesn't excuse the weird energy and vitriol that changing gun laws invokes in people. It goes WAY beyond just being an Amendment, of which we've changed (as well as others) many times since the late 1700's when the Bill of Rights was written.

    So again, why is THIS so divisive? It's not just it being an Amendment, most people are just fine with amending and changing the other Amendments. But nope, not this one.


    Might want to study up on your history. 17 times (post Bill of Rights) in 228 years with several being related so really fewer topics than that. Not a one was ratified without years of debate.

    As 206 points out, there's a reason it's in the Constitution. If you disagree with that reasoning start a movement for a Constitutional Amendment and stop trying to subvert a Constitutionally protected Right by unconstitutional means.


    The authors of that amendment were a*hole. They didnt have cell phones


    Yeah they didn't even have click to chat yet, telegraph was a few years down the road still.
    chris98251
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Re: Mass Shootings
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:33 pm
  • I own several firearms and would be perfectly fine with more strict gun laws. Make me do a background check every time I buy a gun, don't care I will pass.

    Having said that. There are to many people in this world anyway so I really don't care about mass shootings.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:39 am
  • KitsapGuy
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Re: Mass Shootings
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:15 am
  • KitsapGuy wrote:


    Interesting. Common sense says that’s a riffle.
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