Mass Shootings

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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:47 am
  • Tical21 wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    So, now we’re back to “get rid of the guns”

    Not happening in this country.

    Sorry Bro Tater.

    It has to, and it will. It's inevitable. If you can't see that this is where we are going to end up, you're just being obtuse. Every highly publicized mass shooting gets us closer to this inevitable conclusion. Even though it won't work. And the march will be lead by prominent people from the right. And Texas will be a $h!t.


    An all out attempt by our government to disarm Americans will spark a civil war.

    If you think otherwise you need to come out from under the rock you’ve been living under.
    The VAST majority of guns in this country are owned by people that will vigorously defend their right to own them, even those folks that otherwise would be labeled as passive.

    Most Pro 2nd people understand that this is an eventual goal for many.

    You would be surprised to know some of the measures that are already in place to ensure America is never disarmed.

    Whittled away, is why most Pro 2nd folk are against giving up anything, even if on the surface it may make sense.

    Inevitable is a possibility but it won’t be anytime in the next several generations. You and I will never see it.
    Millions of people are willing to bet their lives on it.


    Edit:
    If you think that America’s police and military are going to lead the way, you’re further under the rock than I thought.

    It will not be the police or military going door to door looking for guns. It will be people from the right leading the way by turning their guns over to the government and asking the rest of the right to follow suit. Those who are registered gun owners who do not turn over their guns will be fined until they conform to the law. And many will die. And this will certainly happen in my lifetime. Picture the world 5 years from now. There have been what, 50-100 more highly publicized mass shootings. You really think the citizens of this country are just going to sit by and be picked off by guns without doing anything major to try to stop it? Whether or not it works or makes sense, it's going to happen.


    Yep, all those people that would have never hurt a soul turning in their guns.
    That’s going to make a huge difference in our gun crime statistics.
    Mass shootings will also decline to almost zero.

    Hell, I’d probably turn in a few of mine, for the sake of appearances.

    We could even offer an amnesty program.
    Come turn in your illegal gun, even if you have warrants you’ll be free to go.
    That will get a couple dozen more guns off the street.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:50 am
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:It has to, and it will. It's inevitable. If you can't see that this is where we are going to end up, you're just being obtuse. Every highly publicized mass shooting gets us closer to this inevitable conclusion. Even though it won't work. And the march will be lead by prominent people from the right. And Texas will be a $h!t.


    An all out attempt by our government to disarm Americans will spark a civil war.

    If you think otherwise you need to come out from under the rock you’ve been living under.
    The VAST majority of guns in this country are owned by people that will vigorously defend their right to own them, even those folks that otherwise would be labeled as passive.

    Most Pro 2nd people understand that this is an eventual goal for many.

    You would be surprised to know some of the measures that are already in place to ensure America is never disarmed.

    Whittled away, is why most Pro 2nd folk are against giving up anything, even if on the surface it may make sense.

    Inevitable is a possibility but it won’t be anytime in the next several generations. You and I will never see it.
    Millions of people are willing to bet their lives on it.


    Edit:
    If you think that America’s police and military are going to lead the way, you’re further under the rock than I thought.

    It will not be the police or military going door to door looking for guns. It will be people from the right leading the way by turning their guns over to the government and asking the rest of the right to follow suit. Those who are registered gun owners who do not turn over their guns will be fined until they conform to the law. And many will die. And this will certainly happen in my lifetime. Picture the world 5 years from now. There have been what, 50-100 more highly publicized mass shootings. You really think the citizens of this country are just going to sit by and be picked off by guns without doing anything major to try to stop it? Whether or not it works or makes sense, it's going to happen.


    Yep, all those people that would have never hurt a soul turning in their guns.
    That’s going to make a huge difference in our gun crime statistics.
    Mass shootings will also decline to almost zero.

    Hell, I’d probably turn in a few of mine, for the sake of appearances.

    We could even offer an amnesty program.
    Come turn in your illegal gun, even if you have warrants you’ll be free to go.
    That will get a couple dozen more guns off the street.

    For like the 7th time in this thread, I never said it will work, just that it will happen. The people that use our 2nd amendment to commit awful crimes have ruined the second amendment for those that don't. The costs outweigh the benefits. Can't say it any more directly than that.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:56 am
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:So, essentially, what you're saying is we should do nothing because there will always be bad people?


    That’s not what I’m saying at all.
    Are you only reading bits/pieces?


    I have to be honest, I'm reading all of this thread and that's what I think you're saying, pmedic.


    I don’t know how else I can explain myself.

    I’m thinking in terms of preventing mass shootings AND gun violence in general.

    Key word:PREVENTION

    I would absolutely entertain the idea of a new law that could/would be enforced AND would have a reasonable chance of making an impact.

    I’m not against “laws” in general, I’m against laws when they can’t or won’t be enforced, I’m against a new law that would only limit access to gun by those that have the right and desire to own a gun.

    Explain to me what good is a law (in terms of prevention) that can’t/ won’t be enforced, or doesn’t have a reasonable expectation of impact.

    The freaking laws don’t matter to the people committing these offenses.

    I’ve said it several times, I think our focus is in the wrong place, and that the guns are not the problem.

    I believe we would be better served to focus on the mental illness aspect, and creating deterrent to street level gun crime. I think we should be looking for ways to help people out of a life of crime and violence.

    Restricting access to guns by law abiding citizens will PREVENT nothing.


    It's like you're arguing against people Fox News has on for Tucker Carlson to spar with. Because your responses certainly have nothing to do with my responses. They're generic statements you can hear any day on a cable news network.

    I'm not trying to change laws. Or prevent violence. I'm trying to increase responsible selling and ownership of guns. Prevent a legal sale to the Odessa nut, as an example. That's all.

    As far as fixing mental illness, that'd have to involve government spending and socialized medicine. That maybe okay for you Dems but not conservatives like me.

    Also, how would you fix mental illness? Any real, common sense and practical ideas you care to share?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:07 am
  • Tical21 wrote:
    fenderbender123 wrote:If guns are the problem then why do we see upticks and downticks in the rate of mass shootings despite no substantial changes in our gun laws?

    Because guns are only part of the problem. Lack of civility and hope, are the bigger factors, and my guess is you see surges because of copycats.


    Add entitlement and lack of discipline, responsibility, and respect to that.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:13 am
  • pehawk wrote:
    Also, how would you fix mental illness? Any real, common sense and practical ideas you care to share?


    Click on my Japan link above, it lines our perfectly the right way to evaluate potential gun owners for mental stability. An independent assessment test administered at a hospital at which time ANOTHER comprehensive background check is completed digging into the person's possible criminal history or law violations.

    Perfect? No. But certainly better than what we do, which is nothing.
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Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:14 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:Millions of people are willing to bet their lives on it.


    You mean lose their lives.


    It’s possible.
    Many lives have been lost over the years for Americans to have the rights we have.
    You probably have some in your family history.


    If only we had the power to change things............you know, as a free democratic society.


    I know right?

    You should hook up with Chris, get that coalition formed, find y’all a couple of soapboxes.

    “Come and take it”
    “Cold dead fingers”
    “Molon labe”
    Etc etc

    Are all terms that mean more than a bumper sticker to millions.

    Rock the vote, America won’t be disarmed with out a fight, that fight would be one for the ages.

    Take every gun from those that choose to follow the law, the criminals and crazies will still have theirs.
    You will have prevented nothing in terms of mass shootings and street level gun crime/violence.

    Pro or anti gun we all should be able to apply a little “common sense” here.

    Even if I was anti gun, I’d be willing to admit that we can’t get rid of all of the guns, I’d know full well that 100s of 1000s of guns would remain available to those that wanted one.

    I’m not asking anyone to use my “common sense”, or think like I do, I’m asking y’all to be realistic, put a small amount of critical thinking into what you are saying.

    Think in terms of a “chain of events”, and predict what the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th event may be.


    So, America votes to ban guns, what’s going to happen next?
    I pray I never get to find out, and not because I’ll have to live life without a gun. Because I’ve given a little thought into the chain of events.

    Again, “rock the vote” Bro, but think about what your asking for vs what you might get. A win isn’t always a win.


    Edit:
    Rock the vote
    Who’s going to come and get my gun?
    Police, Military, maybe the anti gunners that have no guns and voted to take mine?
    Who would help our government enforce the vote?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:26 am
  • Pmed how many people in this thread have said 'get rid of all guns'? You keep going back to this line...why? I post a graph showing some 12,000 federal prosecutions in a single year, and you still go on about laws not being enforced.

    Last week when I babbled on in some long posts, I at least admitted I was on prednisone at the time...not an excuse per se, more of a reason for the long rants.

    I have no idea what drugs you may or may not be using, but maybe you should slow down if you are using.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:29 am
  • pmedic920 wrote:

    Edit:
    Rock the vote
    Who’s going to come and get my gun?
    Police, Military, maybe the anti gunners that have no guns and voted to take mine?
    Who would help our government enforce the vote?


    I've specifically told you now directly that it's not an all or none thing, and I've also laid out logical ideas based on what other smart countries are doing to help minimize gun deaths...........yet this is the blather you continue to cling to.

    So this tells me medic that you are either not reading my posts (or Tical's), or being obtuse on purpose in order to stay on your 2nd Amendment high horse, because stepping even one foot closer to logical solutions would do what? Not sure, only you can answer that.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:45 am
  • LymonHawk wrote:Pmed how many people in this thread have said 'get rid of all guns'? You keep going back to this line...why? I post a graph showing some 12,000 federal prosecutions in a single year, and you still go on about laws not being enforced.

    Last week when I babbled on in some long posts, I at least admitted I was on prednisone at the time...not an excuse per se, more of a reason for the long rants.

    I have no idea what drugs you may or may not be using, but maybe you should slow down if you are using.


    There’s only one way to get rid of gun violence period.
    That’s to get rid of guns, period.

    You can post whatever statistics you choose but when we have people walking the streets with multiple gun crime/violations, we aren’t enforcing our laws effectively.
    When it’s already illegal to by a gun with a history of mental illness but people do so, we aren’t enforcing current laws effectively.
    There people walking the streets with convictions for poaching but still have the right to own a gun, we aren’t enforcing the laws effectively.
    I can go on and on, I hope you get my point.
    It’s doubtful because you have a long and public history of opposing and arguing with me, I don’t care about that however.

    Name one gun crime we don’t already have a law to cover, I dare you. Double Dog dare you.
    Now tell me just one of these events that any law prevented.


    We either can’t or don’t enforce our current laws effectively.

    Argue that however you want but the fact that these things still happen in spite of the current laws, proves you the fool.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:50 am
  • Lon, you don't think the police and military would follow orders to disarm civilians? The cops shoot people dead in the streets every single day, often times over whether or not the person has a gun on them.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:51 am
  • LymonHawk wrote:Pmed how many people in this thread have said 'get rid of all guns'? You keep going back to this line...why? I post a graph showing some 12,000 federal prosecutions in a single year, and you still go on about laws not being enforced.

    Last week when I babbled on in some long posts, I at least admitted I was on prednisone at the time...not an excuse per se, more of a reason for the long rants.

    I have no idea what drugs you may or may not be using, but maybe you should slow down if you are using.

    I did.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:07 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    LymonHawk wrote:Pmed how many people in this thread have said 'get rid of all guns'? You keep going back to this line...why? I post a graph showing some 12,000 federal prosecutions in a single year, and you still go on about laws not being enforced.

    Last week when I babbled on in some long posts, I at least admitted I was on prednisone at the time...not an excuse per se, more of a reason for the long rants.

    I have no idea what drugs you may or may not be using, but maybe you should slow down if you are using.


    There’s only one way to get rid of gun violence period.
    That’s to get rid of guns, period.

    You can post whatever statistics you choose but when we have people walking the streets with multiple gun crime/violations, we aren’t enforcing our laws effectively.
    When it’s already illegal to by a gun with a history of mental illness but people do so, we aren’t enforcing current laws effectively.
    There people walking the streets with convictions for poaching but still have the right to own a gun, we aren’t enforcing the laws effectively.
    I can go on and on, I hope you get my point.
    It’s doubtful because you have a long and public history of opposing and arguing with me, I don’t care about that however.

    Name one gun crime we don’t already have a law to cover, I dare you. Double Dog dare you.
    Now tell me just one of these events that any law prevented.


    We either can’t or don’t enforce our current laws effectively.

    Argue that however you want but the fact that these things still happen in spite of the current laws, proves you the fool.


    :34853_doh: You're babbling. If it's a crime then obviously there is a law, or it wouldn't be a crime? No? Are we back to why are they any laws, because people will still break them?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:12 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:

    Edit:
    Rock the vote
    Who’s going to come and get my gun?
    Police, Military, maybe the anti gunners that have no guns and voted to take mine?
    Who would help our government enforce the vote?


    I've specifically told you now directly that it's not an all or none thing, and I've also laid out logical ideas based on what other smart countries are doing to help minimize gun deaths...........yet this is the blather you continue to cling to.

    So this tells me medic that you are either not reading my posts (or Tical's), or being obtuse on purpose in order to stay on your 2nd Amendment high horse, because stepping even one foot closer to logical solutions would do what? Not sure, only you can answer that.


    You suggested the “democratic” idea, I simply responded to it.

    I’ve stated clearly that I’m pro gun, and pro 2nd amendment, I’m not changing my stance based on anything in this thread.

    I’m 100% open to entertaining ideas under these circumstances.

    What do you want?
    How will you implement/enforce it effectively?
    What measurable impact do predict it will have?


    If you can’t implement and enforce it, if you can’t offer a measurable impact, I view it as an attack on my rights, and will oppose it. I see it as a attempt to whittle away at the 2nd amendment.

    In this scenario, I’m not riding the fence. Some idea regurgitated is not going to sway me.
    Like my pro 2nd arguments to you, I’ve heard every one of these ideas before, in theory some are good ideas but when thought through they become absurd because they can’t or won’t be enforced.
    They are opposed because they only punish the law abiding, or restrict access to those that legally have the right.

    I mentioned focus several times.
    I say focus because we have people with a history of mental illness buying weapons legally. How does that happen?
    It happens because we want our medical information protected, maybe instead of giving up our guns, we need to give up some of rights to HIPA?
    Are you willing to allow doctors to report your medical history to a national data base? If you are, what about the rest of America, do you think they are?

    Why does the kid that robs a 7/11 with a gun get probation?
    Because we don’t want to ruin his life by incarceration. He might never do it again, right?

    I’ll talk to anyone about new laws when they can talk to me about how they will enforce it, and how they see it having an impact.

    Nobody here has been willing to do so.
    Those that have come close have come up with ideas that can’t prevent even a single incident.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:16 pm
  • Pmedic - how would you tackle mental illness? How would it be paid for?

    You keep demanding we answer your specific questions yet never answer questions asked of you. Quit being a one-way, selfish communicator. It's not good for the community.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:17 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:Lon, you don't think the police and military would follow orders to disarm civilians? The cops shoot people dead in the streets every single day, often times over whether or not the person has a gun on them.


    Nope, I sure don’t, not in an all out attempt to disarm Americans.

    Sure, cops take guns away from people on a regular basis.
    The military will hold arms against civilians under certain circumstances but in a Civil War/disarm Americans scenario I’m fairly certain and confident that the police and military would not be on the side of the government.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:25 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Lon, you don't think the police and military would follow orders to disarm civilians? The cops shoot people dead in the streets every single day, often times over whether or not the person has a gun on them.


    Nope, I sure don’t, not in an all out attempt to disarm Americans.

    Sure, cops take guns away from people on a regular basis.
    The military will hold arms against civilians under certain circumstances but in a Civil War/disarm Americans scenario I’m fairly certain and confident that the police and military would not be on the side of the government.


    I like this scenario because the gun nuts would be the criminals and the "Civil War" would be caused by them shooting cops/military.

    The irony would be fantastic.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:30 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Lon, you don't think the police and military would follow orders to disarm civilians? The cops shoot people dead in the streets every single day, often times over whether or not the person has a gun on them.


    Nope, I sure don’t, not in an all out attempt to disarm Americans.

    Sure, cops take guns away from people on a regular basis.
    The military will hold arms against civilians under certain circumstances but in a Civil War/disarm Americans scenario I’m fairly certain and confident that the police and military would not be on the side of the government.


    I like this scenario because the gun nuts would be the criminals and the "Civil War" would be caused by them shooting cops/military.

    The irony would be fantastic.


    Exactly.

    First thing I'm doing in this scenario is buying an illegal gun, flying down to a red state, and mowing down every redneck I see. Missing in Action 3 style.

    "Come get some lead you hick ****! WOLVERINES!!"".

    Dude, I. CANT. WAIT.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:31 pm
  • pehawk wrote:Pmedic - how would you tackle mental illness? How would it be paid for?

    You keep demanding we answer your specific questions yet never answer questions asked of you. Quit being a one-way, selfish communicator. It's not good for the community.


    I don’t have an answer for you.
    Understand this, there are 1000s of smarter people than you or I that are in the field, and they don’t have the answer either.

    My point when I mentioned mental illness is, it’s the mentality ill person we need to focus on, not whatever weapon they choose.

    One of the problems with guns and mentality ill people is, there is no way to track them via data base. We have a right for our medical information to remain private.
    There are very few situations where reporting is mandatory by Drs.

    We’ve even had a mass shooting recently where the shooter was discharged from military due to mental illness. He was still able to obtain guns legally.

    I don’t have an answer to mental illness but I do think it’s possible that maybe we should look into mandatory reporting of certain conditions.

    This still is a slippery slope because false or mistaken diagnosis happen.

    Sorry I can offer more, maybe that explains my stance a little better?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:32 pm
  • The Insurance option posited is an interesting idea. There is one problem with it that I see.
    The cost of the insurance would have to be super low, because if it were at a level where it would prohibit a low income person from owning a firearm then that would make it unconstitutional since you cannot deny people their rights through economic means.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:33 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:[Those that have come close have come up with ideas that can’t prevent even a single incident.


    My insurance requirement would've stopped the private sale to Odessa dude.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:33 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Lon, you don't think the police and military would follow orders to disarm civilians? The cops shoot people dead in the streets every single day, often times over whether or not the person has a gun on them.


    Nope, I sure don’t, not in an all out attempt to disarm Americans.

    Sure, cops take guns away from people on a regular basis.
    The military will hold arms against civilians under certain circumstances but in a Civil War/disarm Americans scenario I’m fairly certain and confident that the police and military would not be on the side of the government.


    I like this scenario because the gun nuts would be the criminals and the "Civil War" would be caused by them shooting cops/military.

    The irony would be fantastic.


    Exactly.

    First thing I'm doing in this scenario is buying an illegal gun, flying down to a red state, and mowing down every redneck I see. Missing in Action 3 style.

    "Come get some lead you hick ****! WOLVERINES!!"".

    Dude, I. CANT. WAIT.


    Haha@Pe

    You wouldn’t last 10 mins.
    Love your passion though.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:33 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Pmedic - how would you tackle mental illness? How would it be paid for?

    You keep demanding we answer your specific questions yet never answer questions asked of you. Quit being a one-way, selfish communicator. It's not good for the community.


    I don’t have an answer for you.
    Understand this, there are 1000s of smarter people than you or I that are in the field, and they don’t have the answer either.

    My point when I mentioned mental illness is, it’s the mentality ill person we need to focus on, not whatever weapon they choose.

    One of the problems with guns and mentality ill people is, there is no way to track them via data base. We have a right for our medical information to remain private.
    There are very few situations where reporting is mandatory by Drs.

    We’ve even had a mass shooting recently where the shooter was discharged from military due to mental illness. He was still able to obtain guns legally.

    I don’t have an answer to mental illness but I do think it’s possible that maybe we should look into mandatory reporting of certain conditions.

    This still is a slippery slope because false or mistaken diagnosis happen.

    Sorry I can offer more, maybe that explains my stance a little better?


    Yet you demand everything we discuss is specific and prevents every scenario.

    Just pointing out your hypocrisy here.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:35 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Lon, you don't think the police and military would follow orders to disarm civilians? The cops shoot people dead in the streets every single day, often times over whether or not the person has a gun on them.


    Nope, I sure don’t, not in an all out attempt to disarm Americans.

    Sure, cops take guns away from people on a regular basis.
    The military will hold arms against civilians under certain circumstances but in a Civil War/disarm Americans scenario I’m fairly certain and confident that the police and military would not be on the side of the government.


    I like this scenario because the gun nuts would be the criminals and the "Civil War" would be caused by them shooting cops/military.

    The irony would be fantastic.


    It would definitely be an F’d up situation there is zero doubt.
    I do think your vision of it is a bit off however.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:37 pm
  • Seahawk wrote:The Insurance option posited is an interesting idea. There is one problem with it that I see.
    The cost of the insurance would have to be super low, because if it were at a level where it would prohibit a low income person from owning a firearm then that would make it unconstitutional since you cannot deny people their rights through economic means.


    Obamacare...but for ARs?

    For the record, I literally thought of the insurance idea two days ago. I haven't thought through any of the potential issues, similar to the one you brought up. But yes, it's a brilliant and original idea, by a brilliant and sweet, sweet boy.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:45 pm
  • I'm not sure why the focus on ARs. They are only used in about 25% of all murders by firearm.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:47 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Pmedic - how would you tackle mental illness? How would it be paid for?

    You keep demanding we answer your specific questions yet never answer questions asked of you. Quit being a one-way, selfish communicator. It's not good for the community.


    I don’t have an answer for you.
    Understand this, there are 1000s of smarter people than you or I that are in the field, and they don’t have the answer either.

    My point when I mentioned mental illness is, it’s the mentality ill person we need to focus on, not whatever weapon they choose.

    One of the problems with guns and mentality ill people is, there is no way to track them via data base. We have a right for our medical information to remain private.
    There are very few situations where reporting is mandatory by Drs.

    We’ve even had a mass shooting recently where the shooter was discharged from military due to mental illness. He was still able to obtain guns legally.

    I don’t have an answer to mental illness but I do think it’s possible that maybe we should look into mandatory reporting of certain conditions.

    This still is a slippery slope because false or mistaken diagnosis happen.

    Sorry I can offer more, maybe that explains my stance a little better?


    Yet you demand everything we discuss is specific and prevents every scenario.

    Just pointing out your hypocrisy here.


    That’s not true at all.

    I’ve demanded nothing.

    Sure, I’ve mentioned prevention but never said anything about every scenario.

    I’ve stated many times that a certain idea would prevent nothing, and I’ve asked for specifics but it’s because I already knew something was unenforceable.

    I simply don’t understand why anyone would suggest something that can’t be enforced, and has no chance of making an impact. Maybe it’s because they lack understanding, IDK?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:50 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:Pmedic - how would you tackle mental illness? How would it be paid for?

    You keep demanding we answer your specific questions yet never answer questions asked of you. Quit being a one-way, selfish communicator. It's not good for the community.


    I don’t have an answer for you.
    Understand this, there are 1000s of smarter people than you or I that are in the field, and they don’t have the answer either.

    My point when I mentioned mental illness is, it’s the mentality ill person we need to focus on, not whatever weapon they choose.

    One of the problems with guns and mentality ill people is, there is no way to track them via data base. We have a right for our medical information to remain private.
    There are very few situations where reporting is mandatory by Drs.

    We’ve even had a mass shooting recently where the shooter was discharged from military due to mental illness. He was still able to obtain guns legally.

    I don’t have an answer to mental illness but I do think it’s possible that maybe we should look into mandatory reporting of certain conditions.

    This still is a slippery slope because false or mistaken diagnosis happen.

    Sorry I can offer more, maybe that explains my stance a little better?


    Yet you demand everything we discuss is specific and prevents every scenario.

    Just pointing out your hypocrisy here.


    That’s not true at all.

    I’ve demanded nothing.

    Sure, I’ve mentioned prevention but never said anything about every scenario.

    I’ve stated many times that a certain idea would prevent nothing, and I’ve asked for specifics but it’s because I already knew something was unenforceable.

    I simply don’t understand why anyone would suggest something that can’t be enforced, and has no chance of making an impact. Maybe it’s because they lack understanding, IDK?


    How would you enforce mandatory reporting of the mentally ill? Who would decide the standard of who's stable enough to get a gun and who isnt? Who pays for it?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:52 pm
  • Seahawk wrote:I'm not sure why the focus on ARs. They are only used in about 25% of all murders by firearm.


    It was tongue and cheek. Like Schindler's List.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:00 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:[Those that have come close have come up with ideas that can’t prevent even a single incident.


    My insurance requirement would've stopped the private sale to Odessa dude.


    How so?
    Maybe I missed something.

    If so, do you think your insurance requirement would have prevented him from getting his hands on a gun?

    Do you think he needed a gun to hurt those people?

    I’ve already said that insurance isn’t a bad idea, and I personally have it.

    The thing I do have issues with, is the folks that could afford the weapon but not the insurance. I’d hate for someone to be forced into buying a POS weapon so they could afford to insure it.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:01 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:Nobody here has been willing to do so.
    Those that have come close have come up with ideas that can’t prevent even a single incident.


    The problem here is that you don't believe that any of the myriad suggestions in this thread (nor outside of it, I'd wager) could potentially have a positive outcome and therefore are shutting down conversation. I'd be willing to bet that most if not all of the suggestions here, in some form or another, could at least have some positive impact, but you're not willing to even entertain the idea of any of them because you apparently believe that your access to firearms is more important to you than, well, just about anything else.

    You want there to be less gun deaths in this country, I believe that. I hope that. But you are unwilling to do even anything, any little thing, about it.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:05 pm
  • Well, let's hear him out. PMed, why do you feel you need a firearm?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:06 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Lon, you don't think the police and military would follow orders to disarm civilians? The cops shoot people dead in the streets every single day, often times over whether or not the person has a gun on them.


    Nope, I sure don’t, not in an all out attempt to disarm Americans.

    Sure, cops take guns away from people on a regular basis.
    The military will hold arms against civilians under certain circumstances but in a Civil War/disarm Americans scenario I’m fairly certain and confident that the police and military would not be on the side of the government.


    I like this scenario because the gun nuts would be the criminals and the "Civil War" would be caused by them shooting cops/military.

    The irony would be fantastic.


    Actually, the irony would be that the attempt to eliminate the second amendment would trigger one of the reasons for the second amendment.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:08 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:[Those that have come close have come up with ideas that can’t prevent even a single incident.


    My insurance requirement would've stopped the private sale to Odessa dude.


    How so?
    Maybe I missed something.

    If so, do you think your insurance requirement would have prevented him from getting his hands on a gun?

    Do you think he needed a gun to hurt those people?

    I’ve already said that insurance isn’t a bad idea, and I personally have it.

    The thing I do have issues with, is the folks that could afford the weapon but not the insurance. I’d hate for someone to be forced into buying a POS weapon so they could afford to insure it.


    Because the dude had already been flagged as being unable to purchase a firearm. So, he bought it privately which requires no check. If every gun had to be insured before a sale is completed the private seller wouldn't have sold to him, unless he was completely stupid, and wanted to take on the liability risk.

    I guess he still could have purchased a gun illegally? But, as I've stated, that's not as easy as people make it out to be. And my intention isn't to prevent every possible violent act. Or prevent every possible criminal getting their hand on a gun. You assuming he would've found another way is just that, an assumption. Which I can do too. I can assume he wouldn't have been able to purchase a firearm illegally if denied privately. Neither of us know. But at least my idea is a step and a check.
    Last edited by pehawk on Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:12 pm
  • What's ironic is 99.999999% of the individuals who point to mental health and a decay of morality/parenting as the reasons for gun violence, are also opposed to anything insuring everyone has access to counseling and/or money for pre-k and after school programs.

    Makes it all come off as BS. Because if you truly cared about mental health and well-being of children you'd certainly be open to some form socialized/affordable healthcare and funding for schools. But, they never are.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:14 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    I don’t have an answer for you.
    Understand this, there are 1000s of smarter people than you or I that are in the field, and they don’t have the answer either.

    My point when I mentioned mental illness is, it’s the mentality ill person we need to focus on, not whatever weapon they choose.

    One of the problems with guns and mentality ill people is, there is no way to track them via data base. We have a right for our medical information to remain private.
    There are very few situations where reporting is mandatory by Drs.

    We’ve even had a mass shooting recently where the shooter was discharged from military due to mental illness. He was still able to obtain guns legally.

    I don’t have an answer to mental illness but I do think it’s possible that maybe we should look into mandatory reporting of certain conditions.

    This still is a slippery slope because false or mistaken diagnosis happen.

    Sorry I can offer more, maybe that explains my stance a little better?


    Yet you demand everything we discuss is specific and prevents every scenario.

    Just pointing out your hypocrisy here.


    That’s not true at all.

    I’ve demanded nothing.

    Sure, I’ve mentioned prevention but never said anything about every scenario.

    I’ve stated many times that a certain idea would prevent nothing, and I’ve asked for specifics but it’s because I already knew something was unenforceable.

    I simply don’t understand why anyone would suggest something that can’t be enforced, and has no chance of making an impact. Maybe it’s because they lack understanding, IDK?


    How would you enforce mandatory reporting of the mentally ill? Who would decide the standard of who's stable enough to get a gun and who isnt? Who pays for it?


    Enforcement of a law like this isn’t the same as enforcement of a law addressing mass shootings and street level gun violence/crime.
    Sure it could be an issue but if you’re familiar with Drs. and the medical field, you already know that they would like to report and have a place do so, much more than they currently are allowed too.

    Those standards are already established.


    Funding of a data base like this would be fairly nominal in the grand scheme of things ( as long as the politicians were kept away) and easily come from multiple sources.

    Taxes already collected from guns sales.
    Pts medical insurance etc etc.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:16 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    Yet you demand everything we discuss is specific and prevents every scenario.

    Just pointing out your hypocrisy here.


    That’s not true at all.

    I’ve demanded nothing.

    Sure, I’ve mentioned prevention but never said anything about every scenario.

    I’ve stated many times that a certain idea would prevent nothing, and I’ve asked for specifics but it’s because I already knew something was unenforceable.

    I simply don’t understand why anyone would suggest something that can’t be enforced, and has no chance of making an impact. Maybe it’s because they lack understanding, IDK?


    How would you enforce mandatory reporting of the mentally ill? Who would decide the standard of who's stable enough to get a gun and who isnt? Who pays for it?


    Enforcement of a law like this isn’t the same as enforcement of a law addressing mass shootings and street level gun violence/crime.
    Sure it could be an issue but if you’re familiar with Drs. and the medical field, you already know that they would like to report and have a place do so, much more than they currently are allowed too.

    Those standards are already established.


    Funding of a data base like this would be fairly nominal in the grand scheme of things ( as long as the politicians were kept away) and easily come from multiple sources.

    Taxes already collected from guns sales.
    Pts medical insurance etc etc.


    What about the uninsured? Lower income who don't have insurance?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:23 pm
  • pehawk wrote:What's ironic is 99.999999% of the individuals who point to mental health and a decay of morality/parenting as the reasons for gun violence, are also opposed to anything insuring everyone has access to counseling and/or money for pre-k and after school programs.

    Makes it all come off as BS. Because if you truly cared about mental health and well-being of children you'd certainly be open to some form socialized/affordable healthcare and funding for schools. But, they never are.


    I am absolutely not opposed to those things. I do believe that a good portion of the programs are mismanaged, funds misused and too much is spent on compassion (and there does need to be compassion) and not enough on correction.

    It should also be noted that the affordable health care act was never about healthcare for all and mostly served to put the money and power in the hands of insurance and healthcare conglomerates.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:31 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:Well, let's hear him out. PMed, why do you feel you need a firearm?



    Short answer:

    It’s not the “bill of needs”


    Longer answer:

    I’ve already stated, I’m not a hunter.

    I enjoy shooting sports like “3 gun” and “defensive pistol” competitions.
    (Google it)

    I have some guns for investment purposes.

    I have a few that were gifts.

    I have some for personal protection.

    I also have some to be used in case of “$h!t hits the fan” scenario.
    (Zombie apocalypse ya know)

    Some I have simply because I think they are cool.

    None of them are any threat to anyone unless that person intends to harm me /mine. If that ever happens it will be 100% within my rights. I pray the day never comes.

    At this exact moment, I don’t “need” a gun but I have a few in case things are different a few minutes from now.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:41 pm
  • pehawk wrote:I honestly don't know what FFL is. Maybe requiring that on every sale would accomplish what I'm thinking?

    Honestly, I have no clue what it means, Sweetie.

    FFL was referring to a licensed dealer who requires a 4473 form completed which triggers the 'background' check everyone refers to.

    Several states have gone to requiring all sales be brokered through an FFL, it will be interesting to see if it produces any results.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:44 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Well, let's hear him out. PMed, why do you feel you need a firearm?



    Short answer:

    It’s not the “bill of needs”


    Longer answer:

    I’ve already stated, I’m not a hunter.

    I enjoy shooting sports like “3 gun” and “defensive pistol” competitions.
    (Google it)

    I have some guns for investment purposes.

    I have a few that were gifts.

    I have some for personal protection.

    I also have some to be used in case of “$h!t hits the fan” scenario.
    (Zombie apocalypse ya know)

    Some I have simply because I think they are cool.

    None of them are any threat to anyone unless that person intends to harm me /mine. If that ever happens it will be 100% within my rights. I pray the day never comes.

    At this exact moment, I don’t “need” a gun but I have a few in case things are different a few minutes from now.

    Cool, thanks for taking the time. This is kind of what I'm getting at. it sounds like you've never actually needed a gun, and you most likely, assumption being made here, never will. I think the overwhelming majority of gun-owners are in a similar boat. So, I don't understand what the big deal is. If your guns were to be taken away or turned in or whatever, you'd miss out on playing "3 gun." Again, to me, the benefit doesn't match the cost.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:48 pm
  • pehawk wrote:What's ironic is 99.999999% of the individuals who point to mental health and a decay of morality/parenting as the reasons for gun violence, are also opposed to anything insuring everyone has access to counseling and/or money for pre-k and after school programs.

    Makes it all come off as BS. Because if you truly cared about mental health and well-being of children you'd certainly be open to some form socialized/affordable healthcare and funding for schools. But, they never are.


    Do we agree that a mass shooter is mentally ill in some fashion?

    Pre-k and after school programs are glorified baby sitting.
    Are you suggesting that the public should be obligated to pay for your/anyone’s babysitting?

    That’s as bad as me suggesting that we sterilize people that can’t afford to raise a child properly.

    I won’t willingly pay for your babysitter but I will shoot her if I see her trying to kill you or your children.

    Lol
    Crap getting deep up in here.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:49 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:Lon, you don't think the police and military would follow orders to disarm civilians? The cops shoot people dead in the streets every single day, often times over whether or not the person has a gun on them.

    It would be the Ferguson Effect writ large.

    When LEO shoot someone it's almost always to eliminate a perceived threat (rightly or wrongly). Do you really think LEO are going to put themselves in harms way to enforce what would be a highly controversial law?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:51 pm
  • pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    That’s not true at all.

    I’ve demanded nothing.

    Sure, I’ve mentioned prevention but never said anything about every scenario.

    I’ve stated many times that a certain idea would prevent nothing, and I’ve asked for specifics but it’s because I already knew something was unenforceable.

    I simply don’t understand why anyone would suggest something that can’t be enforced, and has no chance of making an impact. Maybe it’s because they lack understanding, IDK?


    How would you enforce mandatory reporting of the mentally ill? Who would decide the standard of who's stable enough to get a gun and who isnt? Who pays for it?


    Enforcement of a law like this isn’t the same as enforcement of a law addressing mass shootings and street level gun violence/crime.
    Sure it could be an issue but if you’re familiar with Drs. and the medical field, you already know that they would like to report and have a place do so, much more than they currently are allowed too.

    Those standards are already established.


    Funding of a data base like this would be fairly nominal in the grand scheme of things ( as long as the politicians were kept away) and easily come from multiple sources.

    Taxes already collected from guns sales.
    Pts medical insurance etc etc.


    What about the uninsured? Lower income who don't have insurance?


    Duh.
    Did you read the part about taxes already collected from gun sales?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:54 pm
  • Seahawk wrote:The Insurance option posited is an interesting idea. There is one problem with it that I see.
    The cost of the insurance would have to be super low, because if it were at a level where it would prohibit a low income person from owning a firearm then that would make it unconstitutional since you cannot deny people their rights through economic means.

    Excellent point, in effect it's a firearms poll tax.

    Of course we already have examples in several major cities where the rich and connected have the privilege to exercise the 2A and the average Joe doesn't.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:58 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:What's ironic is 99.999999% of the individuals who point to mental health and a decay of morality/parenting as the reasons for gun violence, are also opposed to anything insuring everyone has access to counseling and/or money for pre-k and after school programs.

    Makes it all come off as BS. Because if you truly cared about mental health and well-being of children you'd certainly be open to some form socialized/affordable healthcare and funding for schools. But, they never are.


    Do we agree that a mass shooter is mentally ill in some fashion?

    Pre-k and after school programs are glorified baby sitting.
    Are you suggesting that the public should be obligated to pay for your/anyone’s babysitting?

    That’s as bad as me suggesting that we sterilize people that can’t afford to raise a child properly.

    I won’t willingly pay for your babysitter but I will shoot her if I see her trying to kill you or your children.

    Lol
    Crap getting deep up in here.



    Again pmedic with the obtuse comprehension problems. pehawk said access to counseling and after school care, of which I assume would be better than the child going back to whatever broken dysfunctional home they live in, which is what contributed to them growing up and becoming a problem to society.

    He's right;

    Gun owners: "Hey it's not the guns, it's mental illness, lack of family and video games!"

    People who actually offer solutions: "Let's get kids the help they need at a young age then with counseling and other programs that may help their mental well being."

    Gun owners: "I'M NOT PAYING FOR YOUR BABYSITTERS!!"
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:59 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    Seahawk wrote:The Insurance option posited is an interesting idea. There is one problem with it that I see.
    The cost of the insurance would have to be super low, because if it were at a level where it would prohibit a low income person from owning a firearm then that would make it unconstitutional since you cannot deny people their rights through economic means.

    Excellent point, in effect it's a firearms poll tax.

    Of course we already have examples in several major cities where the rich and connected have the privilege to exercise the 2A and the average Joe doesn't.


    Which is another problem with state, county and city gun legislation. It results in American's having differing levels of a constitutional right.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:04 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:What's ironic is 99.999999% of the individuals who point to mental health and a decay of morality/parenting as the reasons for gun violence, are also opposed to anything insuring everyone has access to counseling and/or money for pre-k and after school programs.

    Makes it all come off as BS. Because if you truly cared about mental health and well-being of children you'd certainly be open to some form socialized/affordable healthcare and funding for schools. But, they never are.


    Do we agree that a mass shooter is mentally ill in some fashion?

    Pre-k and after school programs are glorified baby sitting.
    Are you suggesting that the public should be obligated to pay for your/anyone’s babysitting?

    That’s as bad as me suggesting that we sterilize people that can’t afford to raise a child properly.

    I won’t willingly pay for your babysitter but I will shoot her if I see her trying to kill you or your children.

    Lol
    Crap getting deep up in here.


    So having a database to log all the mentally ill will fix this? But looking into programs that could prevent it wont.

    Got it.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:06 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    pehawk wrote:
    How would you enforce mandatory reporting of the mentally ill? Who would decide the standard of who's stable enough to get a gun and who isnt? Who pays for it?


    Enforcement of a law like this isn’t the same as enforcement of a law addressing mass shootings and street level gun violence/crime.
    Sure it could be an issue but if you’re familiar with Drs. and the medical field, you already know that they would like to report and have a place do so, much more than they currently are allowed too.

    Those standards are already established.


    Funding of a data base like this would be fairly nominal in the grand scheme of things ( as long as the politicians were kept away) and easily come from multiple sources.

    Taxes already collected from guns sales.
    Pts medical insurance etc etc.


    What about the uninsured? Lower income who don't have insurance?


    Duh.
    Did you read the part about taxes already collected from gun sales?


    So you want all taxes on gun sales to fund mental health? Us that accurate?
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:06 pm
  • pehawk wrote:What's ironic is 99.999999% of the individuals who point to mental health and a decay of morality/parenting as the reasons for gun violence, are also opposed to anything insuring everyone has access to counseling and/or money for pre-k and after school programs.

    Makes it all come off as BS. Because if you truly cared about mental health and well-being of children you'd certainly be open to some form socialized/affordable healthcare and funding for schools. But, they never are.

    Again with the macro solution to a micro problem.

    Universal programs won't do anything for the sick puppies that are prone to spree killing. Your best hope is to detect and detain the tiny fraction as cynical as that sounds. Instead your programs will have a negative impact on all by displacing the role of the family unit.
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Re: Mass Shootings
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:07 pm
  • Osprey wrote:
    Zebulon Dak wrote:Lon, you don't think the police and military would follow orders to disarm civilians? The cops shoot people dead in the streets every single day, often times over whether or not the person has a gun on them.

    It would be the Ferguson Effect writ large.

    When LEO shoot someone it's almost always to eliminate a perceived threat (rightly or wrongly). Do you really think LEO are going to put themselves in harms way to enforce what would be a highly controversial law?


    I think that the police would enforce any law to the point that they're expected to. If we literally enacted into law a firearm confiscation of some sort then most LEOs would absolutely enforce that law. If we want to follow this path to some sort of all-out civil war because of it, then I'm sure there would be some LEOs and members of the military that would turncoat and fight with the people against the government, yeah.

    I like Hollywood's version of how all this would go down as much as the next guy, but it's really even less realistic than it is likely; that is to say, not realistic or likely at all.
    Zebulon Dak
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