US is close to losing measles-elimination status.

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  • or you could charge them with assault if they pass on their affliction.
    bevellisthedevil
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  • Abso-bloody-lutely. Some anti-vaxxers spout that they have a right to their opinions.

    They don't.
    Aussie Seahawk
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  • I’d be curious to see if there is correlation between recent immigrants and outbreaks. Seems like it too political to touch even though it was the primary function of Ellis Island.
    Osprey
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  • Deal is, if the resident population has the required % of vaccinated people then when an immigrant arrives with measles it just dies out from not getting a foothold. Recent immigrants have always brought measles (AFAIK) but it never spread because ignorant $h!t were in the minority. This is how 'herd immunity' works.

    In a different vein, the big argument by the anti-vaxxers is that vaccinations cause autism. My little sister (who lives with me) is profoundly autistic. She gets by, and has a life. How the hell is autism worse than dying from a communicable disease?!?
    GeekHawk
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  • That's very dependent on the size of the population coming in.
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  • HawkGA wrote:That's very dependent on the size of the population coming in.


    Anybody know estimates on the anti-vax population?
    HawkGA
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  • Aussie Seahawk wrote:Abso-bloody-lutely. Some anti-vaxxers spout that they have a right to their opinions.

    They don't.


    They have a right to their OPINIONS, they just don't have a right to afflict others adversely.
    MontanaHawk05
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  • It's a simple fix, your child can't enroll in school until they're caught up on all their vaccinations. No exceptions.

    That's the way it used to be, we all had to be current on vaccinations. Hell we had to bring our physicals and vaccination records to sign up for little league.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • peachesenregalia wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:It's a simple fix, your child can't enroll in school until they're caught up on all their vaccinations. No exceptions.

    That's the way it used to be, we all had to be current on vaccinations. Hell we had to bring our physicals and vaccination records to sign up for little league.

    This is false. Most states have had exemptions for religious and other objections for a very long time. There are other exemption reasons also. Private entities can absolutely require children to be fully vaccinated, but public entities don't have that kind of power unfortunately.


    Well then "very long time" is after I got through school, which is the 80's and early 90's.

    That's how it works, once you allow people to act like selfish narcissistic a-holes, then they will. "Therapy pets" on planes, "religious" reasons to not get your kids vaccinated. It's all the same.

    So change the rules, and some states already are, including ours. Just this year;

    Enacted Legislation 2019

    * Washington House Bill 1638 removes the personal belief exemption for the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine requirement for public schools, private schools and day care centers.
    * Maine House Bill 586 removes personal and religious belief exemptions for public school immunization requirements.
    * New York Senate Bill 2994 removes the religious exemption for public school immunization requirements.


    Unfortunately we live in a society that needs to protect the smart people from the dummies, cause dummies be dumnin'.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • So it's narcisstic to do what you want, but not narcissitic to tell other people what to do?

    Also, the religious exemptions are not the same as the anti-vaxxers. I don't have a problem with people opting out for religious reasons. I don't think it's a good idea, but I think that is perfectly reasonable. The anti-vax movement, however, is driven by bad science. I still think they should have a right to not get vaccinated but society finding good ways to reach and educate those people would be a good thing. Perhaps the vaccine makers could use their profits on a marketing campaign rather than trying to get government compulsion.
    HawkGA
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  • Well whooptie doo.

    Going to preface my post by saying I am not an anti-vaxxer. Both of my children, and myself, have been vaccinated against all of the major diseases for which they are prescribed, except flu, because that $h!t just doesn't work.

    About four weeks after my baby daughter was born in January, she contracted a viral infection (RSV) for which there is no vaccine, developed a fever, stopped eating and nearly died as a result of that infection. Vaccines didn't save her ass, the staff and supportive care she received at Seattle Children's did.

    Vaccination should always be a choice and never compulsory. The "vaccine injury compensation fund" exists for a reason, and that reason is not because vaccines are 100% completely, absolutely safe and without the potential for side effects.
    SmokinHawk
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:That's the way it used to be, we all had to be current on vaccinations. Hell we had to bring our physicals and vaccination records to sign up for little league.


    You do know that public school attendance and little league are not the same thing, right? I mean, I know some parents and some kids (especially in Texas) have a hard time differentiating.
    HawkGA
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  • HawkGA wrote:So it's narcisstic to do what you want, but not narcissitic to tell other people what to do?.


    It's narcissistic to put your own selfish needs and opinions ahead of the greater good. I mean, that's the definition of the word. Self importance.

    This is especially true if your opinions have zero scientific basis, unless you think Jenny McCarthy is a credible doctor or scientist. Too many people basing their decisions and actions on fears, feelings and anecdotal examples.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • I dunno, thinking you know what's best for other people seems pretty narcissitic. Thinking you are a smart person who needs to be protected from the dumber people around you also seems pretty narcissistic.

    Now, I agree with you that having opinions with zero scientific basis sucks, but does that mean we should strap these people to a table against their will and inject them with things they don't want? That just seems a little extreme and overreaching to me. If I ever had a view that the majority of people disagreed with, I would hope I would get such treatment.
    HawkGA
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  • HawkGA wrote:I dunno, thinking you know what's best for other people seems pretty narcissitic. Thinking you are a smart person who needs to be protected from the dumber people around you also seems pretty narcissistic.

    Now, I agree with you that having opinions with zero scientific basis sucks, but does that mean we should strap these people to a table against their will and inject them with things they don't want? That just seems a little extreme and overreaching to me. If I ever had a view that the majority of people disagreed with, I would hope I would get such treatment.


    You keep putting this on me. These aren't my opinions, they're the opinions of credible medical scientists and doctors, of which this factual data has been around now for 100 years.

    We had all these diseases wiped out. Why are they back? Bad luck? Change in our DNA? Global Warming? Covert government conspiracy to thin global population?

    No, dummies not vaccinating their kids. that's why....because we've allowed it. Stop allowing it.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    HawkGA wrote:I dunno, thinking you know what's best for other people seems pretty narcissitic. Thinking you are a smart person who needs to be protected from the dumber people around you also seems pretty narcissistic.

    Now, I agree with you that having opinions with zero scientific basis sucks, but does that mean we should strap these people to a table against their will and inject them with things they don't want? That just seems a little extreme and overreaching to me. If I ever had a view that the majority of people disagreed with, I would hope I would get such treatment.


    You keep putting this on me. These aren't my opinions, they're the opinions of credible medical scientists and doctors, of which this factual data has been around now for 100 years.

    We had all these diseases wiped out. Why are they back? Bad luck? Change in our DNA? Global Warming? Covert government conspiracy to thin global population?

    No, dummies not vaccinating their kids. that's why....because we've allowed it. Stop allowing it.


    Well the Autism effect is real, my ex wife's son go t it from a vaccination and also got a settlement out of it, if it wasn't real they would not have paid her to care for him.

    Some people just react to these things and you don't know who it will be sadly.

    It could be the damn multi vaccination cocktail mixing in several too close together who knows.

    I do agree the level of immigration could have an effect, non vaccinated people surging from everywhere bringing in strains and mutations of strains we have not caught up with yet.

    I remember after the Vietnam war we had a large influx come in and we had flu viruses for years afterwards that we were not ready for or immune to or had a shot for.
    chris98251
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  • I don't disagree at all with the importance of vaccines. I'm just not a fan of proposed approaches to forcing people to get vaccinated.
    HawkGA
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  • Most anti-vax types tend to be wealthy (as strange as that might seem on the surface) due to the Dunning-Kruger effect. So make them financially liable for damages/healthcare if they are part of an outbreak of an easily preventable disease. I bet more than a few of them would change their minds if real money was on the line.
    Sarlacc83
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  • HawkGA wrote:I don't disagree at all with the importance of vaccines. I'm just not a fan of proposed approaches to forcing people to get vaccinated.


    Then homeschool your kids and keep them out of the general population, and also you're not allowed to take them to amusement parks, movie theaters, sporting events or any other highly populated areas.

    Or...........you could just get them vaccinated like a sane person.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • Sarlacc83 wrote:Most anti-vax types tend to be wealthy (as strange as that might seem on the surface) due to the Dunning-Kruger effect. So make them financially liable for damages/healthcare if they are part of an outbreak of an easily preventable disease. I bet more than a few of them would change their minds if real money was on the line.


    I seem to recall back in the early days of AIDS that the CDC (or somebody) had actually identified Patient 0 for spreading AIDS (or perhaps this is all urban legend). I wonder, though, would we be able to do that with anti-vaxers. My guess would be not. That is, could we identify specific people causing the outbreak. If I never get vaccinated but also never get the measles (or whatever), should I really be held financially liable for other people getting it?
    HawkGA
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    HawkGA wrote:I don't disagree at all with the importance of vaccines. I'm just not a fan of proposed approaches to forcing people to get vaccinated.


    Then homeschool your kids and keep them out of the general population, and also you're not allowed to take them to amusement parks, movie theaters, sporting events or any other highly populated areas.

    Or...........you could just get them vaccinated like a sane person.


    That would seem up to the owners of movie theaters, amusement parks, and sporting owners. As to public schools though, those are government run and schooling is compulsory. That's a whole different ball of wax.

    For the record, I homeschool my kids and they are vaccinated.
    HawkGA
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  • HawkGA wrote:
    Sarlacc83 wrote:Most anti-vax types tend to be wealthy (as strange as that might seem on the surface) due to the Dunning-Kruger effect. So make them financially liable for damages/healthcare if they are part of an outbreak of an easily preventable disease. I bet more than a few of them would change their minds if real money was on the line.


    I seem to recall back in the early days of AIDS that the CDC (or somebody) had actually identified Patient 0 for spreading AIDS (or perhaps this is all urban legend). I wonder, though, would we be able to do that with anti-vaxers. My guess would be not. That is, could we identify specific people causing the outbreak. If I never get vaccinated but also never get the measles (or whatever), should I really be held financially liable for other people getting it?


    I mean, I don't think it would be unfair to sue someone like Jen McCarthy, but then the anti-vaxxers would grow more fervent in their belief that the vaccine system is rigged. Better to just let it be known that if you don't vaccinate, your health insurance won't cover it, another health insurance company will hold you liable for covering costs they shouldn't have had to, and the hospital is going to send you the bill for your children.
    Sarlacc83
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  • Insurance companies mandating vaccination before coverage seems reasonable (though much like the public school issues, the compulsory rules on health care complicate this a bit). Not sure about being sued by another insurance company for liability.
    HawkGA
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  • Sarlacc83 wrote:Most anti-vax types tend to be wealthy (as strange as that might seem on the surface) due to the Dunning-Kruger effect. So make them financially liable for damages/healthcare if they are part of an outbreak of an easily preventable disease. I bet more than a few of them would change their minds if real money was on the line.


    Not true. The rich ones are just more high profile than the average idiot so they're more noticeable.
    Maulbert
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  • Maulbert wrote:
    Sarlacc83 wrote:Most anti-vax types tend to be wealthy (as strange as that might seem on the surface) due to the Dunning-Kruger effect. So make them financially liable for damages/healthcare if they are part of an outbreak of an easily preventable disease. I bet more than a few of them would change their minds if real money was on the line.


    Not true. The rich ones are just more high profile than the average idiot so they're more noticeable.


    Takes all of five minutes of research to confirm you've done none. Vaccination rates go down in high income areas.

    https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-conta ... d=60674519

    More sources: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ns/380252/

    https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/a ... 015.302926

    (It goes without saying that a lot of kids living under the poverty line are not able to get properly vaccinated. They would not fall under the category anti-vax)
    Sarlacc83
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  • HawkGA wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    HawkGA wrote:I don't disagree at all with the importance of vaccines. I'm just not a fan of proposed approaches to forcing people to get vaccinated.


    Then homeschool your kids and keep them out of the general population, and also you're not allowed to take them to amusement parks, movie theaters, sporting events or any other highly populated areas.

    Or...........you could just get them vaccinated like a sane person.


    That would seem up to the owners of movie theaters, amusement parks, and sporting owners. As to public schools though, those are government run and schooling is compulsory. That's a whole different ball of wax.

    For the record, I homeschool my kids and they are vaccinated.


    I'm sure major privately owned places like this would require it, if they could figure out how to police it. I'm sure Disneyland would like the 2.M in lost revenue back that they lost after the measles outbreak in 2017 cost them.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • There are tons of rural health clinics, county health clinics, etc. Poor kids aren't "not able to get properly vaccinated". But you are right, I wouldn't call them anti-vaxers. I'd just call them $h!t parents.
    HawkGA
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    HawkGA wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    HawkGA wrote:I don't disagree at all with the importance of vaccines. I'm just not a fan of proposed approaches to forcing people to get vaccinated.


    Then homeschool your kids and keep them out of the general population, and also you're not allowed to take them to amusement parks, movie theaters, sporting events or any other highly populated areas.

    Or...........you could just get them vaccinated like a sane person.


    That would seem up to the owners of movie theaters, amusement parks, and sporting owners. As to public schools though, those are government run and schooling is compulsory. That's a whole different ball of wax.

    For the record, I homeschool my kids and they are vaccinated.


    I'm sure major privately owned places like this would require it, if they could figure out how to police it. I'm sure Disneyland would like the 2.M in lost revenue back that they lost after the measles outbreak in 2017 cost them.


    I agree it probably isn't feasible for Disney or other places to do it. But that's where the insurance idea, I think, gets legs.
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  • HawkGA wrote:There are tons of rural health clinics, county health clinics, etc. Poor kids aren't "not able to get properly vaccinated". But you are right, I wouldn't call them anti-vaxers. I'd just call them $h!t parents.


    See to me the real anti-vaxxers are the $h!t parents. The pseudo science hipsters that refuse to put any chemicals into their little Einsteins cause it's just feels wrong.

    Immigrants and poor people have bigger life problems to worry about, and most of the time their education levels aren't to the level where they're informed or even understand something like vaccinations.

    So I'd give them more of a break for just not knowing any better or just trying to make ends meat.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • If they could somehow mix essential oils into those vaccine cocktails, you probably would wipe out 50% of the anti-vaxxers.
    bevellisthedevil
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  • Are you thinking $ex on the Beach as the cocktail....or something else??? Asking for a friend.
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  • Someone confirm this, I had heard since Polio had been all but wiped out they stopped vaccination for it a bit back, then within the last few years they started seeing a re emergence of it, not sure where at but thinking it was in The US and brought in from outside the country. Those that were not vaccinated in that period were the ones that started to have the issues.
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  • We indeed are no longer vaccinated for it. Not sure about it making a comeback or not. I just know that my sister-in-law is old enough to have been vaccinated. So we like to make fun of her for that.
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  • Drops? Pretty they did a shot here because apparently it leaves a scare. Wonder if we just sent a placebo to the UK?
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  • HawkGA wrote:Drops? Pretty they did a shot here because apparently it leaves a scare. Wonder if we just sent a placebo to the UK?


    Polio shots are a sequence or used to be here.
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  • HawkGA wrote:
    Sarlacc83 wrote:Most anti-vax types tend to be wealthy (as strange as that might seem on the surface) due to the Dunning-Kruger effect. So make them financially liable for damages/healthcare if they are part of an outbreak of an easily preventable disease. I bet more than a few of them would change their minds if real money was on the line.


    I seem to recall back in the early days of AIDS that the CDC (or somebody) had actually identified Patient 0 for spreading AIDS (or perhaps this is all urban legend). I wonder, though, would we be able to do that with anti-vaxers. My guess would be not. That is, could we identify specific people causing the outbreak. If I never get vaccinated but also never get the measles (or whatever), should I really be held financially liable for other people getting it?

    I believe you are right about patient zero. It can be a painstaking process, though. I do know that in some of the recent measles outbreaks, they have determined the physical location of where the contagion was spread, or at least concentrations of probable spread.

    As for your last comment, measles, like many contagious diseases, is often at its most contagious before the carrier shows major symptoms or has debilitating ill affects. There's also the 'Typhoid Mary' affect in which a carrier can spread disease without actually suffering from it. Healthy people can spread diseases, too.

    Get your kids vaccinated. Unless there is a real health issue with it (and some kids do have reactions to vaccines), it is the right thing to do for your kids and for your community.
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  • I am 100% for vaccinations, and I wish people weren't anti-vaxxers.

    But at the same time, I have a hard time being mad at or hating anti-vaxxers. They are simply ignorant. They actually believe that vaccinations are more harmful. If you're smart enough to understand why since sources can be trusted and others can't when it comes to getting accurate scientific information, then sure, you understand why the anti vaccination stance is wrong and dangerous. But they simply haven't gone through those mental motions. Who do we blame for that? Well, it doesn't matter who is to blame. But somehow or another this uptick in not providing vaccinations needs to be curbed.

    Honestly, I think a couple outbreak scares will change a lot of minds for the better.
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  • What does Gwyneth Paltrow think about this? The coffee enemas have been fantastic...
    Cyrus12
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  • sutz wrote:Get your kids vaccinated.


    Yep. Despite my desire not to have them mandated, I do think every discussion of vaccines should end with basically, "but seriously dudes, just vaccinate your kids."
    HawkGA
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  • fenderbender123 wrote:I am 100% for vaccinations, and I wish people weren't anti-vaxxers.

    But at the same time, I have a hard time being mad at or hating anti-vaxxers. They are simply ignorant. They actually believe that vaccinations are more harmful. If you're smart enough to understand why since sources can be trusted and others can't when it comes to getting accurate scientific information, then sure, you understand why the anti vaccination stance is wrong and dangerous. But they simply haven't gone through those mental motions. Who do we blame for that? Well, it doesn't matter who is to blame. But somehow or another this uptick in not providing vaccinations needs to be curbed.

    Honestly, I think a couple outbreak scares will change a lot of minds for the better.


    As usual, Fender is the voice of reason in this crazy world! :greetingsearthling:
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  • chris98251 wrote:Well the Autism effect is real


    No it isn't. Please don't be stupid.
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  • GeekHawk wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Well the Autism effect is real


    No it isn't. Please don't be stupid.


    Yes it is, out of court settlement and non disclosure of case findings, you don't do that if your squeaky clean, like I said, a combination of the cocktails and possible Genetic combinations could have caused it but it is real.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Aussie Seahawk wrote:Abso-bloody-lutely. Some anti-vaxxers spout that they have a right to their opinions.

    They don't.


    They have a right to their OPINIONS, they just don't have a right to afflict others adversely.


    But, their opinions are what DOES afflict others! Whether their children actually do go unimmunised, or if they simply influence others with their rubbish beliefs, it doesn't matter. Totalitarian enforcement is indeed mandatory here. There are NO worthwhile rational arguments against immunisation.

    The total abolition of smallpox (and rinderpest) are staggering human achievements! Yet, some still pay creedence to mumbo-jumbo crap about autism links, etc... and religious beliefs. Well, I suppose I'm not allowed to say it here, but you can probably guess what my opinion of religious beliefs affecting herd immunity in the 21st century is!

    My mother was a nurses' aide in the early 50s, and she told me about people jamming the corridors of hospitals, overflowing the beds available in the polio epidemic. ALL fixed by immunisation. Another victory in our never-ending battle with disease. HOW can these triumphs of science be retarded by people who believe in simple hearsay and rumour?
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  • Cyrus12 wrote:What does Gwyneth Paltrow think about this? The coffee enemas have been fantastic...


    I wish I could reply to this in the Shack! That woman... oh, just don't get me started. To be arrested for oxygen theft, for starters. HOW towering wankers like her get airspace, because they are... (UGH, I hate the word)... "celebrities", I have no idea. Unfortunately, total crap, rumour, hearsay and sheer lies encircle the globe far more quickly than truth, and rigorously peer-reviewed science.
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  • HawkGA wrote:Also, the religious exemptions are not the same as the anti-vaxxers. I don't have a problem with people opting out for religious reasons. I don't think it's a good idea, but I think that is perfectly reasonable. The anti-vax movement, however, is driven by bad science. I still think they should have a right to not get vaccinated but society finding good ways to reach and educate those people would be a good thing. Perhaps the vaccine makers could use their profits on a marketing campaign rather than trying to get government compulsion.


    You should be a politician! A whole paragraph of words which don't add up to anything. The part I've underlined is spot-on; agreed 100%, but the rest of your post kinda argues with itself. Please explain further.
    Aussie Seahawk
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  • Aussie Seahawk wrote:But, their opinions are what DOES afflict others!


    Well, it's actually acting on those opinions that affects others. Not the opinions themselves.
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