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Injection Sites

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Re: Injection Sites
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:45 pm
  • DomeHawk wrote:And, first of all before you all attack me for being a proponent of these sites I am not, but nor am I opposed to them. I simply do not know one way or another.

    I read about the concept behind them but I have also seen firsthand how these individuals can really play the system. At one point I thought that the best most humane thing you could do for these people is make heroin addiction illegal and throw them in jail where they will be forced to kick - the hard way.

    Heroin addicts don't like to kick, to say that it is an extremely unpleasant experience is an understatement. The problem becomes that this is still America and everyone, even heroin addicts, are entitled to due process. What would be the cost of putting 5,000 heroin addicts through the system in Seattle? Maybe even multiple times in each year.

    Another would be to just shut the sites down altogether and return to that system where HIV rates climb, addicts are more isolated from any community but their own, and we see them dying on our streets. Remember that these are someone's children and at one time they were probably everyday nice kids.

    Pro: http://www.dailyuw.com/wellness/article ... 47e27.html

    Con: https://www.seattleweekly.com/news/grou ... ng-county/


    Throw in that the medical system now bends over backwards not to prescribe Opiates as pain control for chronic pain disorders in people and Heroin is easier to get, the downward spiral begins there for them along with those using alcohol, Consumable Marijuana only does so much and it depends on what is the patients issues. But that's another factor and many Doctors don't agree with how the system is attacking Opiates and saying take Tylenol or something else that isn't effective for them.
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Injection Sites
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:59 pm
  • This came up in another unrelated thread and I thought it might be worthy of a discussion.

    And, first of all before you all attack me for being a proponent of these sites I am not, but nor am I opposed to them. I simply do not know one way or another.

    I read about the concept behind them but I have also seen firsthand how these individuals can really play the system. At one point I thought that the best most humane thing you could do for these people is make heroin addiction illegal and throw them in jail where they will be forced to kick - the hard way.

    Heroin addicts don't like to kick, to say that it is an extremely unpleasant experience is an understatement. The problem becomes that this is still America and everyone, even heroin addicts, are entitled to due process. What would be the cost of putting 5,000 heroin addicts through the system in Seattle? Maybe even multiple times in each year.

    Another would be to just shut the sites down altogether and return to that system where HIV rates climb, addicts are more isolated from any community but their own, and we see them dying on our streets. Remember that these are someone's children and at one time they were probably everyday nice kids.
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Re: Injection Sites
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:21 pm
  • Heroin's a hell of a drug. I'll admit I'm pretty ignorant to the subject. Injection sites seem to me like good intentions that don't do much to actually help. I know some people that feel fairly passionately on either side but I've always stayed out of the argument because I just don't know enough to participate.
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Re: Injection Sites
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:27 pm
  • Zebulon Dak wrote:Heroin's a hell of a drug. I'll admit I'm pretty ignorant to the subject. Injection sites seem to me like good intentions that don't do much to actually help. I know some people that feel fairly passionately on either side but I've always stayed out of the argument because I just don't know enough to participate.


    No doubt, it is the ultimate escape drug. I asked of an addict one time to describe that to me. He replied that you could be sitting on the white line of a highways with cars zooming past you at 60 mph and you wouldn't care.

    Pretty strong indeed.
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Re: Injection Sites
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:33 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:And, first of all before you all attack me for being a proponent of these sites I am not, but nor am I opposed to them. I simply do not know one way or another.

    I read about the concept behind them but I have also seen firsthand how these individuals can really play the system. At one point I thought that the best most humane thing you could do for these people is make heroin addiction illegal and throw them in jail where they will be forced to kick - the hard way.

    Heroin addicts don't like to kick, to say that it is an extremely unpleasant experience is an understatement. The problem becomes that this is still America and everyone, even heroin addicts, are entitled to due process. What would be the cost of putting 5,000 heroin addicts through the system in Seattle? Maybe even multiple times in each year.

    Another would be to just shut the sites down altogether and return to that system where HIV rates climb, addicts are more isolated from any community but their own, and we see them dying on our streets. Remember that these are someone's children and at one time they were probably everyday nice kids.

    Pro: http://www.dailyuw.com/wellness/article ... 47e27.html

    Con: https://www.seattleweekly.com/news/grou ... ng-county/


    Throw in that the medical system now bends over backwards not to prescribe Opiates as pain control for chronic pain disorders in people and Heroin is easier to get, the downward spiral begins there for them along with those using alcohol, Consumable Marijuana only does so much and it depends on what is the patients issues. But that's another factor and many Doctors don't agree with how the system is attacking Opiates and saying take Tylenol or something else that isn't effective for them.


    As I mentioned earlier the pendulum has now swung too far in the other direction. People with legitimate pain issues are left to suffer as MD's fear the repercussions of prescribing these drugs.

    It would be nice if the govt could acknowledge these concerns and find a happy medium.
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Re: Injection Sites
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:57 pm
  • Exactly. The biggest public health reasons remain limiting spread of HIV/hep via the bloodborne route between users and increasingly the public at large via needles left in public.

    Injection sites reward that behavior with a government sanctioned, safe and comfortable site to shoot up in a convenient market of buyers and sellers.

    Instead of this, offer more MAT programs. MAT is basically methadone maintenance 2.0 with bupe (less potent/less abusable than methadone) or suboxone (bupe treated w/narcan).

    Instead of this, put money into studies determining step down efficacy of kratom and Ayahuasca. Kratom is a gray market product and ayahusca I believe a controlled substance, but their adherents are mostly people looking to get off opiates.

    Instead of this, revisit the reactionary 2014 CDC guidelines that discouraged physicians from prescribing opiates for any chronic pain unless that pain was specifically caused by terminal cancer. We still do not have as effective a solution for chronic pain or even acute pain.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:38 am
  • Here is my solution to the opioid crisis.

    Make it legal, make it extremely potent, and make it extremely cheap. Let Darwin sort it out. In two generations, I bet there will be a lot fewer smackheads on the street.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:35 am
  • The issues with Heroin hit close home to me.

    I lost a very close childhood friend to a heroin overdose five years ago who developed a severe opioid addiction following three back surgeries. Back in school he was a 6'4" 285lb naturally gifted athlete that could walk in a room and ladies would flock to him like no other. The old sports injuries caught up to him, and after some surgeries and an over prescribing doctor he became a full blown addict.

    My cousin who used to make $100k as a class A garbage driver, got fired, started living out of his car, then sold his car for drugs and now lives behind the Winco foods in Kent.

    My wife manages a seafood department at a large grocery store chain, and has walked in the ladies restroom many times to see girls either passed out stoned out of their minds on the floor, or getting ready to shoot up. Needles in the trash can, needles on the floor, you name it.

    Injection sites are a slippery slope. On one hand I think it would be beneficial to have one location for people to use, and safely dispose of their needles, but on the other it's almost as if people are turning a blind on to the real problem. Kinda like putting a band aid on an amputation and hoping it fixes the problem which it won't.

    Drive by the methadone clinic in Kent right off 68th any given morning around 7am. You will see junkies lined around the building waiting for their daily fix.
    Last edited by 2_0_6 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:56 am
  • Anyone want to hear about opiate overdose and abuse from a street level paramedics view point?


    As far as injection sites?

    I view them the same way I view limiting gun magazine capacities.

    It’s a feel good thing that good intending, ill informed, ignorant people want to do and support but will do absolutely nothing in terms of fixing the real problem.

    I fully understand the theory, and I’m sure that someone will post statistics “proving” that injection sites work.
    I still call BS, it won’t come anywhere close to fixing the problem.
    Sure, it may save a few lives, keep a few dirty needles out of the gutter but it won’t even be a drop in the bucket, let alone fix anything.
    And in some circumstances may even make things worse.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:26 am
  • pmedic920 wrote:Anyone want to hear about opiate overdose and abuse from a street level paramedics view point?


    As far as injection sites?

    I view them the same way I view limiting gun magazine capacities.

    It’s a feel good thing that good intending, ill informed, ignorant people want to do and support but will do absolutely nothing in terms of fixing the real problem.

    I fully understand the theory, and I’m sure that someone will post statistics “proving” that injection sites work.
    I still call BS, it won’t come anywhere close to fixing the problem.
    Sure, it may save a few lives, keep a few dirty needles out of the gutter but it won’t even be a drop in the bucket, let alone fix anything.
    And in some circumstances may even make things worse.


    How many times have you brought the same person back from the brink of death with naloxone? Multiple times a day? I know many addicts who I believe are actually immortals like Highlander...except their sword is a needle.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:32 pm
  • Cyrus12 wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:Anyone want to hear about opiate overdose and abuse from a street level paramedics view point?


    As far as injection sites?

    I view them the same way I view limiting gun magazine capacities.

    It’s a feel good thing that good intending, ill informed, ignorant people want to do and support but will do absolutely nothing in terms of fixing the real problem.

    I fully understand the theory, and I’m sure that someone will post statistics “proving” that injection sites work.
    I still call BS, it won’t come anywhere close to fixing the problem.
    Sure, it may save a few lives, keep a few dirty needles out of the gutter but it won’t even be a drop in the bucket, let alone fix anything.
    And in some circumstances may even make things worse.


    How many times have you brought the same person back from the brink of death with naloxone? Multiple times a day? I know many addicts who I believe are actually immortals like Highlander...except their sword is a needle.


    We work opiate overdoses regularly.
    I work a fairly small district so it’s not daily. They do tend to run in streaks, and I think it’s because many of our addicts (heroin) get if from the same basic supply. I have a theory that new batches come into the area that are stronger than the last, and it catches them off guard.

    Obviously Heroin is only a portion of the opiate overdose.
    I worked a kid just the other day that was chewing his Gma’s Fentanyl patches. He wold have died had he been found even 5mins later. Breathing 2-3 Times a minute will not sustain life, and cardiac arrest is very soon to follow.
    We also work a bunch of normal appearing people that have become addicts due to pain management process.
    The average Joe would be amazed at the amount of opiate addicts in our country. Many of them are not heroin/needle junkies, yet.

    We do see the same people multiple times, I’ve never had the same person in the same day.
    We have a policy that they don’t get to refuse transport when they’ve been treated w/Narcan.
    Narcan has a shorter life in the body than the opiates do, the Narcan can wear off putting the person back at risk.

    If they refuse transportation., we get law enforcement involved and they do an EDO (emergency detention order) on them. They get evaluated and monitored at the hospital until they can be medically cleared. At that point depending on circumstances they may be released, forced into rehab, or possibly jailed for drug related offenses.

    The whole situation is a mess, there is no easy answer.

    I stand my ground on “injection sites”, they aren’t even a bandaid on the Hemorrhage that this problem is.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:38 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:Anyone want to hear about opiate overdose and abuse from a street level paramedics view point?


    As far as injection sites?

    I view them the same way I view limiting gun magazine capacities.

    It’s a feel good thing that good intending, ill informed, ignorant people want to do and support but will do absolutely nothing in terms of fixing the real problem.

    I fully understand the theory, and I’m sure that someone will post statistics “proving” that injection sites work.
    I still call BS, it won’t come anywhere close to fixing the problem.
    Sure, it may save a few lives, keep a few dirty needles out of the gutter but it won’t even be a drop in the bucket, let alone fix anything.
    And in some circumstances may even make things worse.


    I have deep concerns about injection sites myself but I don't believe that they were ever designed or intended to "fix the problem" but were offered as a partial solution to problems associated with heroin use. i.e., rampant OD's, the spread of diseases created by multiple people using the same needle, etc.

    The book is still out on whether it actually exacerbates the problem but I would like to know more about that too.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:41 pm
  • I will add this.

    Here in Texas, and I’m sure other places as well.

    Narcan can be purchased OTC (over the counter) without a prescription.

    It truly is a simple life saving medication.

    If any of you are the type that carries a fist aid kit, if you have been trained in CPR because you care about others.
    If you yourself takes opiate pain medication, or have someone close that does.

    Get you a couple of Narcans and keep them close and available.

    Yes there are a few risks involved with administering Narcan but they are few and do not outweigh the risk of not giving it.

    Seizure and physical fight are the two biggest risk.

    Addicts don’t like being “woke up”, and some of them will fight with vigor.
    Be sure to check the person for weapons prior to waking them up.
    Many of them fear going back to jail, just be prepared to defend yourself, it’s best if you have multiple people around.
    pmedic920
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:45 pm
  • DomeHawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:Anyone want to hear about opiate overdose and abuse from a street level paramedics view point?


    As far as injection sites?

    I view them the same way I view limiting gun magazine capacities.

    It’s a feel good thing that good intending, ill informed, ignorant people want to do and support but will do absolutely nothing in terms of fixing the real problem.

    I fully understand the theory, and I’m sure that someone will post statistics “proving” that injection sites work.
    I still call BS, it won’t come anywhere close to fixing the problem.
    Sure, it may save a few lives, keep a few dirty needles out of the gutter but it won’t even be a drop in the bucket, let alone fix anything.
    And in some circumstances may even make things worse.


    I have deep concerns about injection sites myself but I don't believe that they were ever designed or intended to "fix the problem" but were offered as a partial solution to problems associated with heroin use. i.e., rampant OD's, the spread of diseases created by multiple people using the same needle, etc.

    The book is still out on whether it actually exacerbates the problem but I would like to know more about that too.



    You can say that the book is still out, and I won’t necessarily argue that point.

    What can’t be argued is , injection sites are a form of enabling.

    Drug addiction is a form of physical AND mental illness combined, and I’m not aware of any situation where enabling is considered a “good” thing.
    pmedic920
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:47 pm
  • SantaClaraHawk wrote:Exactly. The biggest public health reasons remain limiting spread of HIV/hep via the bloodborne route between users and increasingly the public at large via needles left in public.

    Injection sites reward that behavior with a government sanctioned, safe and comfortable site to shoot up in a convenient market of buyers and sellers.

    Instead of this, offer more MAT programs. MAT is basically methadone maintenance 2.0 with bupe (less potent/less abusable than methadone) or suboxone (bupe treated w/narcan).

    Instead of this, put money into studies determining step down efficacy of kratom and Ayahuasca. Kratom is a gray market product and ayahusca I believe a controlled substance, but their adherents are mostly people looking to get off opiates.

    Instead of this, revisit the reactionary 2014 CDC guidelines that discouraged physicians from prescribing opiates for any chronic pain unless that pain was specifically caused by terminal cancer. We still do not have as effective a solution for chronic pain or even acute pain.


    ^^^^Good post, this is what a forum discussion should look like.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:52 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    Cyrus12 wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:Anyone want to hear about opiate overdose and abuse from a street level paramedics view point?


    As far as injection sites?

    I view them the same way I view limiting gun magazine capacities.

    It’s a feel good thing that good intending, ill informed, ignorant people want to do and support but will do absolutely nothing in terms of fixing the real problem.

    I fully understand the theory, and I’m sure that someone will post statistics “proving” that injection sites work.
    I still call BS, it won’t come anywhere close to fixing the problem.
    Sure, it may save a few lives, keep a few dirty needles out of the gutter but it won’t even be a drop in the bucket, let alone fix anything.
    And in some circumstances may even make things worse.


    How many times have you brought the same person back from the brink of death with naloxone? Multiple times a day? I know many addicts who I believe are actually immortals like Highlander...except their sword is a needle.


    We work opiate overdoses regularly.
    I work a fairly small district so it’s not daily. They do tend to run in streaks, and I think it’s because many of our addicts (heroin) get if from the same basic supply. I have a theory that new batches come into the area that are stronger than the last, and it catches them off guard.

    Obviously Heroin is only a portion of the opiate overdose.
    I worked a kid just the other day that was chewing his Gma’s Fentanyl patches. He wold have died had he been found even 5mins later. Breathing 2-3 Times a minute will not sustain life, and cardiac arrest is very soon to follow.
    We also work a bunch of normal appearing people that have become addicts due to pain management process.
    The average Joe would be amazed at the amount of opiate addicts in our country. Many of them are not heroin/needle junkies, yet.

    We do see the same people multiple times, I’ve never had the same person in the same day.
    We have a policy that they don’t get to refuse transport when they’ve been treated w/Narcan.
    Narcan has a shorter life in the body than the opiates do, the Narcan can wear off putting the person back at risk.

    If they refuse transportation., we get law enforcement involved and they do an EDO (emergency detention order) on them. They get evaluated and monitored at the hospital until they can be medically cleared. At that point depending on circumstances they may be released, forced into rehab, or possibly jailed for drug related offenses.

    The whole situation is a mess, there is no easy answer.

    I stand my ground on “injection sites”, they aren’t even a bandaid on the Hemorrhage that this problem is.


    Excellent, I have seen this first hand and everything you describe is spot-on. I have also seen where they are angry because you have stolen their high and now they are right back where they started even though they just had their life saved. It's easy to see this as f*** people and they are but it is just another aspect of the sickness that consumes them. Addiction is so powerful.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:58 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:Anyone want to hear about opiate overdose and abuse from a street level paramedics view point?


    As far as injection sites?

    I view them the same way I view limiting gun magazine capacities.

    It’s a feel good thing that good intending, ill informed, ignorant people want to do and support but will do absolutely nothing in terms of fixing the real problem.

    I fully understand the theory, and I’m sure that someone will post statistics “proving” that injection sites work.
    I still call BS, it won’t come anywhere close to fixing the problem.
    Sure, it may save a few lives, keep a few dirty needles out of the gutter but it won’t even be a drop in the bucket, let alone fix anything.
    And in some circumstances may even make things worse.


    I have deep concerns about injection sites myself but I don't believe that they were ever designed or intended to "fix the problem" but were offered as a partial solution to problems associated with heroin use. i.e., rampant OD's, the spread of diseases created by multiple people using the same needle, etc.

    The book is still out on whether it actually exacerbates the problem but I would like to know more about that too.



    You can say that the book is still out, and I won’t necessarily argue that point.

    What can’t be argued is , injection sites are a form of enabling.

    Drug addiction is a form of physical AND mental illness combined, and I’m not aware of any situation where enabling is considered a “good” thing.


    I can't disagree but where do we go from there? What can we do? This is a national epidemic and law enforcement has their hands tied not by just by liberal attitudes, but by the constitution itself. Due process, probable cause, illegal search and seizure, etc. Addicts are well versed in all of this and they don't hesitate to use it to support their addiction. Add to that, we simply don't have the resources necessary to combat this enormous problem.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:26 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    Cyrus12 wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:Anyone want to hear about opiate overdose and abuse from a street level paramedics view point?


    As far as injection sites?

    I view them the same way I view limiting gun magazine capacities.

    It’s a feel good thing that good intending, ill informed, ignorant people want to do and support but will do absolutely nothing in terms of fixing the real problem.

    I fully understand the theory, and I’m sure that someone will post statistics “proving” that injection sites work.
    I still call BS, it won’t come anywhere close to fixing the problem.
    Sure, it may save a few lives, keep a few dirty needles out of the gutter but it won’t even be a drop in the bucket, let alone fix anything.
    And in some circumstances may even make things worse.


    How many times have you brought the same person back from the brink of death with naloxone? Multiple times a day? I know many addicts who I believe are actually immortals like Highlander...except their sword is a needle.


    We work opiate overdoses regularly.
    I work a fairly small district so it’s not daily. They do tend to run in streaks, and I think it’s because many of our addicts (heroin) get if from the same basic supply. I have a theory that new batches come into the area that are stronger than the last, and it catches them off guard.

    Obviously Heroin is only a portion of the opiate overdose.
    I worked a kid just the other day that was chewing his Gma’s Fentanyl patches. He wold have died had he been found even 5mins later. Breathing 2-3 Times a minute will not sustain life, and cardiac arrest is very soon to follow.
    We also work a bunch of normal appearing people that have become addicts due to pain management process.
    The average Joe would be amazed at the amount of opiate addicts in our country. Many of them are not heroin/needle junkies, yet.

    We do see the same people multiple times, I’ve never had the same person in the same day.
    We have a policy that they don’t get to refuse transport when they’ve been treated w/Narcan.
    Narcan has a shorter life in the body than the opiates do, the Narcan can wear off putting the person back at risk.

    If they refuse transportation., we get law enforcement involved and they do an EDO (emergency detention order) on them. They get evaluated and monitored at the hospital until they can be medically cleared. At that point depending on circumstances they may be released, forced into rehab, or possibly jailed for drug related offenses.

    The whole situation is a mess, there is no easy answer.

    I stand my ground on “injection sites”, they aren’t even a bandaid on the Hemorrhage that this problem is.


    Interesting...yes most of what we have here is Fentanyl...smuggled in from China. Real Heroin is very expensive on the street and the days of oxys are pretty much done...which is a drug that got a lot of people started. I've spent weeks on the downtown Eastside of Vancouver over the years which is a renowned for the centralized open air drug market and use. Mostly needles and some people overdose multiple times a day...get narcan'd...released and back to it! It's a shocking sight to see someone inject then draw out their blood and give it to their pal so he can get at least some high on injecting the blood. Their is a safe injection site in the heart of the area but most users still just shoot up on the street. Probably more of a needle exchange site. Needles everywhere on the ground.. A pretty gross sight and most people look like they could walk on the set of the walking dead as an extra for a zombie patrol. They are herded into these areas on purpose imo. A lot of the people I spoke with down there often had good professions but were over prescribed by doctors for injuries...cut off..and resorted to the street which destroyed their lives. Most..if not all imo have mental health issues. In Canada drug dealers get nothing if they get caught so the deterrent isnt there. Users dont get arrested as it would tie up the courts and the crown would not charge anyway...Education is key imo...although the Dare program..say no to drugs bit has proven to be a failure. For a lot of people it still comes down to choices...

    Back on topic...I dont think they work based on what I see and any business owner or city council would be dead set against them. I predict a day in my country fairly soon where fentanyl and or heroin will be prescribed to addicts...although I doubt it will work to solve the problem.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:27 pm
  • We need to "pull a Portugal" and legalize all drugs, and put the money saved into health care and treatment of addiction.

    Anyone interested in educating themselves on this topic should Google Portugal drug decriminalization.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:36 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:We need to "pull a Portugal" and legalize all drugs, and put the money saved into health care and treatment of addiction.

    Anyone interested in educating themselves on this topic should Google Portugal drug decriminalization.


    But if injection sites are seen as enabling, how can this be better?

    Playing devil's advocate here, not to say you are wrong.
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Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:35 pm
  • As cold hearted as it may sound, I’m to the point of saying f***’em let them die.

    I say we should focus on those that recognize they have a problem and want help.

    The problem is too big to be wasting resources on those that don’t want help.

    Addiction (any kind) is a Monster that has so many facets, it can be beaten and people can go on to enjoy productive lives but not if they don’t want help.

    IMHO the question should be, how do we help those that want help.

    Injection sites don’t address that at all.
    I’m sure that some of the programs included a measure of counseling but face the facts, very few of those words are falling on ears that hear.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:42 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:We need to "pull a Portugal" and legalize all drugs, and put the money saved into health care and treatment of addiction.

    Anyone interested in educating themselves on this topic should Google Portugal drug decriminalization.

    I love the “out of the box” thinking and agree on this.
    .....but we can’t even get healthcare figured out in this country.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:42 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:As cold hearted as it may sound, I’m to the point of saying f***’em let them die.

    I say we should focus on those that recognize they have a problem and want help.

    The problem is too big to be wasting resources on those that don’t want help.

    Addiction (any kind) is a Monster that has so many facets, it can be beaten and people can go on to enjoy productive lives but not if they don’t want help.

    IMHO the question should be, how do we help those that want help.

    Injection sites don’t address that at all.
    I’m sure that some of the programs included a measure of counseling but face the facts, very few of those words are falling on ears that hear.

    Yeah, let them die. They're concentrated highest in places that have maintained higher poverty rates for decades, so f*** em. They're not even people.

    Big drug companies, government agencies and the wealth inequality that the rich have engineered are the leading causes behind this, so we good.

    You're a soulless, elitist bastard. Go f*** yourself.
    Last edited by Tical21 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:44 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:As cold hearted as it may sound, I’m to the point of saying f***’em let them die.

    I say we should focus on those that recognize they have a problem and want help.

    The problem is too big to be wasting resources on those that don’t want help.

    Addiction (any kind) is a Monster that has so many facets, it can be beaten and people can go on to enjoy productive lives but not if they don’t want help.

    IMHO the question should be, how do we help those that want help.

    Injection sites don’t address that at all.
    I’m sure that some of the programs included a measure of counseling but face the facts, very few of those words are falling on ears that hear.

    I’m almost at that point myself. You cannot save everyone from themselves if they don’t want to be saved.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:57 pm
  • Sports Hernia wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:As cold hearted as it may sound, I’m to the point of saying f***’em let them die.

    I say we should focus on those that recognize they have a problem and want help.

    The problem is too big to be wasting resources on those that don’t want help.

    Addiction (any kind) is a Monster that has so many facets, it can be beaten and people can go on to enjoy productive lives but not if they don’t want help.

    IMHO the question should be, how do we help those that want help.

    Injection sites don’t address that at all.
    I’m sure that some of the programs included a measure of counseling but face the facts, very few of those words are falling on ears that hear.

    I’m almost at that point myself. You cannot save everyone from themselves if they don’t want to be saved.



    In the end, only the people who truly want to get clean will end up clean. I get addiction is a S.O.B, but often times like in my buddies case, his family felt sorry for him and continued enabling. Which sadly, ultimately led to his death.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:11 pm
  • I assume Tical's post will likely be edited or deleted all together, but I feel the same way. Disgusting post pmedic. Shocking that a paramedic would say such a thing. Do you have no compassion for human life? Or is this just you getting frustrated with the situation and saying "not in my back yard?"

    You people saying the only folks we should help are ones who realize they have a problem and want to stop... you realize the vast majority of addicts know they have a problem right? You expect addicts to not act like addicts...?
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Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:16 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:As cold hearted as it may sound, I’m to the point of saying f***’em let them die.

    I say we should focus on those that recognize they have a problem and want help.

    The problem is too big to be wasting resources on those that don’t want help.

    Addiction (any kind) is a Monster that has so many facets, it can be beaten and people can go on to enjoy productive lives but not if they don’t want help.

    IMHO the question should be, how do we help those that want help.

    Injection sites don’t address that at all.
    I’m sure that some of the programs included a measure of counseling but face the facts, very few of those words are falling on ears that hear.

    Yeah, let them die. They're concentrated highest in places that have maintained higher poverty rates for decades, so f*** em. They're not even people.

    Big drug companies, government agencies and the wealth inequality that the rich have engineered are the leading causes behind this, so we good.

    You're a soulless, elitist bastard. Go f*** yourself.


    Ewwww
    Calling names makes you the bigger man huh.


    How bout you tell us how to help someone that doesn’t want help.

    If you can’t comprehend the whole post, maybe ask a few questions before you spout off.


    We don’t have unlimited resources

    I say we should focus on those that want help.


    Edit:
    You want to spin your wheels attempting to help someone that doesn’t want your help, carrying on with you bad self.
    Last edited by pmedic920 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:24 pm
  • This topic also hits me close to home as my brother died to an OD. As far as injection sites go, I'm kind of torn on the subject myself. No, they are not going to cure addiction and yes, they may be enabling use, but how is that worse than forcing people to do that $h!t on the streets, in public bathrooms, etc.? The enabling argument doesn't even really make sense. People are still going to find illicit drugs and use them, so why is having a better environment that provides safety and clean supplies to these sick people so bad?

    Is it strictly because you think it's a waste of tax money? So is probably 70% of government spending. We shouldn't be setting up places where these people can go and have some assurance of safety, and interact with people there who care about them and want to help them? You say you want to focus on people who realize there's a problem and want to fix it... yet you throw them an anchor rather than a life preserver as their drowning. Being closer and/or actually being somewhere that gives addicts hope of recovery should be a good thing, and we should be doing it as much as possible.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:26 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:As cold hearted as it may sound, I’m to the point of saying f***’em let them die.

    I say we should focus on those that recognize they have a problem and want help.

    The problem is too big to be wasting resources on those that don’t want help.

    Addiction (any kind) is a Monster that has so many facets, it can be beaten and people can go on to enjoy productive lives but not if they don’t want help.

    IMHO the question should be, how do we help those that want help.

    Injection sites don’t address that at all.
    I’m sure that some of the programs included a measure of counseling but face the facts, very few of those words are falling on ears that hear.

    Yeah, let them die. They're concentrated highest in places that have maintained higher poverty rates for decades, so f*** em. They're not even people.

    Big drug companies, government agencies and the wealth inequality that the rich have engineered are the leading causes behind this, so we good.

    You're a soulless, elitist bastard. Go f*** yourself.


    Ewwww
    Calling names makes you the bigger man huh.


    How bout you tell us how to help someone that doesn’t want help.

    If you can’t comprehend the whole post, maybe ask a few questions before you spout off.


    We don’t have unlimited resources

    I say we should focus on those that want help.


    Edit:
    You want to spin your wheels attempting to help someone that doesn’t want your help, carrying on with you bad self.


    Yeah, it's called being a good person and having the tenacity to keep going even when your help is rejected. Sad you feel like you have to give up.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:42 pm
  • There are two approaches here, one says we should throw them out with the garbage, and another says we should do everything we can do to help them. (That is not to say there aren't people here looking at real constructive ideas.)

    I am hoping that the govt is trying to address an approach to a solution that is somewhere between these two philosophies.

    THAT is the real challenge.
    Last edited by DomeHawk on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:42 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:This topic also hits me close to home as my brother died to an OD. As far as injection sites go, I'm kind of torn on the subject myself. No, they are not going to cure addiction and yes, they may be enabling use, but how is that worse than forcing people to do that $h!t on the streets, in public bathrooms, etc.? The enabling argument doesn't even really make sense. People are still going to find illicit drugs and use them, so why is having a better environment that provides safety and clean supplies to these sick people so bad?

    Is it strictly because you think it's a waste of tax money? So is probably 70% of government spending. We shouldn't be setting up places where these people can go and have some assurance of safety, and interact with people there who care about them and want to help them? You say you want to focus on people who realize there's a problem and want to fix it... yet you throw them an anchor rather than a life preserver as their drowning. Being closer and/or actually being somewhere that gives addicts hope of recovery should be a good thing, and we should be doing it as much as possible.



    My stance on this part of the discussion:

    Use the limited resources we have on those that want help with their addiction.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:45 pm
  • Ok so it's the money thing. Saving lives just isn't worth the money because it doesn't save them all. Got it.
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Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:48 pm
  • To those that don’t like my stance.


    That me put this another way.


    Your kid just got hit by a car, he/she is laying in the street unconscious and bleeding.

    Or

    Your Father/mother just fell out. They are on the floor in cardiac arrest.

    Or

    You just cut your own hand off while using a chainsaw in your back yard

    Or etc etc etc.


    The closest and next available ambulance is down the road reviving a heroin addict that overdosed for the 3 rd time this month.

    You’ll get your ambulance when they get finished.


    Edit:
    I’d bet in this situation, a few of you would be OK with letting that addict take his chances so that I could come address the reason you called 911

    Anyone care to be honest?
    Last edited by pmedic920 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:50 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:Ok so it's the money thing. Saving lives just isn't worth the money because it doesn't save them all. Got it.



    How bout this.

    You/we CAN NOT save them all.
    How bout we try to save the ones that want to be saved.


    Edit:

    And WTF do injection sites have to do with saving lives, realistically?
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:52 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:Yeah, let them die. They're concentrated highest in places that have maintained higher poverty rates for decades, so f*** em. They're not even people.

    Big drug companies, government agencies and the wealth inequality that the rich have engineered are the leading causes behind this, so we good.

    You're a soulless, elitist bastard. Go f*** yourself.

    Presumably he's dealt with hundreds of times more junkies than you have, unless you're also a paramedic or a drug treatment counselor (but a lot of those don't deal with the ugly in the streets side as much as paramedics, either). Just sayin'.

    DomeHawk wrote:But if injection sites are seen as enabling, how can this be better?

    Playing devil's advocate here, not to say you are wrong.

    Safe injection sites are a completely different idea with a completely different goal than federal nationwide decriminalization. Safe injection sites are absolutely NOT the way to go. Where's the assistance to help get people treated with safe injection sites? If it's legalized, there are a ton of other side effects. Treatment is is more palatable to people in terms of public perception. Employers are way more likely to have you get help than fire you for being a junkie. The list goes on.
    Last edited by RolandDeschain on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:54 pm
  • Let me put it this way

    Your daughter ODs on heroin and lays unconscious under an overpass slowly dying, but the local LEO/EMTs have been instructed not to respond to them because it's a waste of time and money. Your daughter dies.

    Does that work too or no?
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:55 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:Let me put it this way

    Your daughter ODs on heroin and lays unconscious under an overpass slowly dying, but the local LEO/EMTs have been instructed not to respond to them because it's a waste of time and money. Your daughter dies.

    Does that work too or no?

    On the other hand, where's the incentive to be personally responsible for yourself in this world if everyone, everywhere, can and will just help you out of bad situations that you purposely put yourself into?
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:56 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:I assume Tical's post will likely be edited or deleted all together, but I feel the same way. Disgusting post pmedic. Shocking that a paramedic would say such a thing. Do you have no compassion for human life? Or is this just you getting frustrated with the situation and saying "not in my back yard?"

    You people saying the only folks we should help are ones who realize they have a problem and want to stop... you realize the vast majority of addicts know they have a problem right? You expect addicts to not act like addicts...?



    It has nothing to do with compassion for human life.

    It’s absolutely about being realistic about the topic at hand.

    You want to live in a fantasy bubble go ahead.

    I work around this stuff on a near daily basis and have for almost 30 years.
    I’ve done so specifically because I have compassion for humanity.

    I’m just willing to see it for the reality it is, my head is not in the sand on this issue.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:57 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:It has nothing to do with compassion for human life.

    It’s absolutely about being realistic about the topic at hand.

    You want to live in a fantasy bubble go ahead.

    I work around this stuff on a near daily basis and have for almost 30 years.
    I’ve done so specifically because I have compassion for humanity.

    I’m just willing to see it for the reality it is, my head is not in the sand on this issue.

    It's easy for people who don't actually have to deal with the ugly side of humanity to judge those that do. People also love to be hypocrites about human life, and pretend it's precious. Meanwhile, most of them are believers in religions that only respect human life if those lives believe as they do.
    Last edited by RolandDeschain on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:57 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:Ok so it's the money thing. Saving lives just isn't worth the money because it doesn't save them all. Got it.



    How bout this.

    You/we CAN NOT save them all.
    How bout we try to save the ones that want to be saved.


    Edit:

    And WTF do injection sites have to do with saving lives, realistically?


    Have you missed the whole part where people aren't sharing needles so they're not transmitting hepatitis or other diseases (that will kill them) to each other?

    I agree we can't save them all, but to say "we should only help those that want help" is essentially turning your back on the VAST majority of addicts. You think addicts don't know they have a problem? You think addicts actually want to die on the streets? Or alcoholics want to die of liver failure?
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:00 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:I assume Tical's post will likely be edited or deleted all together, but I feel the same way. Disgusting post pmedic. Shocking that a paramedic would say such a thing. Do you have no compassion for human life? Or is this just you getting frustrated with the situation and saying "not in my back yard?"

    You people saying the only folks we should help are ones who realize they have a problem and want to stop... you realize the vast majority of addicts know they have a problem right? You expect addicts to not act like addicts...?



    It has nothing to do with compassion for human life.

    It’s absolutely about being realistic about the topic at hand.

    You want to live in a fantasy bubble go ahead.

    I work around this stuff on a near daily basis and have for almost 30 years.
    I’ve done so specifically because I have compassion for humanity.

    I’m just willing to see it for the reality it is, my head is not in the sand on this issue.


    Ok, so what have you proposed other than "help those who want help?" No one here is claiming you don't see this on a regular basis. You see the reality of the situation, denounce specific things because you feel like they're a waste or they're just enabling, but I don't see any suggestions as to what would help.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:03 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:Let me put it this way

    Your daughter ODs on heroin and lays unconscious under an overpass slowly dying, but the local LEO/EMTs have been instructed not to respond to them because it's a waste of time and money. Your daughter dies.

    Does that work too or no?

    On the other hand, where's the incentive to be personally responsible for yourself in this world if everyone, everywhere, can and will just help you out of bad situations that you purposely put yourself into?


    What? You think addicts, especially nowadays with the opioid crisis (which has lead MANY to street drugs), purposefully put themselves into these situations? These people are sick.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:13 pm
  • The one thing that will keep an addict away from getting clean is enablers. My buddy would go back to his parents or buddies (like me) with a sob story about trying to get sober, being short on rent, being hungry, needing gas, etc. when all along all he intended to do was use that money to get high. I will admit I personally fell for this from him many many times, fed him, gave him money, rides and bought him groceries but eventually had to cut all ties after he started stealing from me.

    It's a very tough spot to be in, and after his death i thought about what if I was in his parents shoes with my Daughter? I would want to give her every opportunity and chance to get clean and sober and would not want to cut her off knowing she would likely turn to crime and end up dead. It's a very difficult thing to deal with and there is a fine line between being there for support and help and being there as an ATM to fund their habit.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:18 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:Let me put it this way

    Your daughter ODs on heroin and lays unconscious under an overpass slowly dying, but the local LEO/EMTs have been instructed not to respond to them because it's a waste of time and money. Your daughter dies.

    Does that work too or no?


    Do you think this is a realistic argument?
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:21 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:To those that don’t like my stance.


    That me put this another way.


    Your kid just got hit by a car, he/she is laying in the street unconscious and bleeding.

    Or

    Your Father/mother just fell out. They are on the floor in cardiac arrest.

    Or

    You just cut your own hand off while using a chainsaw in your back yard

    Or etc etc etc.


    The closest and next available ambulance is down the road reviving a heroin addict that overdosed for the 3 rd time this month.

    You’ll get your ambulance when they get finished.


    Circling back to this post.

    What I'd really like to see is a separate team of publicly funded EMTs/paramedics/LEOs that are specifically for emergency drug response. Let the regular emergency response teams deal with everything else.

    It would probably never fly because too many people (this thread being exhibit A) would think it's just "a waste of money."
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:22 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:Let me put it this way

    Your daughter ODs on heroin and lays unconscious under an overpass slowly dying, but the local LEO/EMTs have been instructed not to respond to them because it's a waste of time and money. Your daughter dies.

    Does that work too or no?


    Do you think this is a realistic argument?


    Did you think yours was? Both scenarios happen...
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:25 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:Ok so it's the money thing. Saving lives just isn't worth the money because it doesn't save them all. Got it.



    How bout this.

    You/we CAN NOT save them all.
    How bout we try to save the ones that want to be saved.


    Edit:

    And WTF do injection sites have to do with saving lives, realistically?


    Have you missed the whole part where people aren't sharing needles so they're not transmitting hepatitis or other diseases (that will kill them) to each other?

    I agree we can't save them all, but to say "we should only help those that want help" is essentially turning your back on the VAST majority of addicts. You think addicts don't know they have a problem? You think addicts actually want to die on the streets? Or alcoholics want to die of liver failure?



    I said nothing of the kind, you are twisting my words and thoughts
    to suit your own narrative.

    If you don’t understand something I said, and you would like clarification just ask.

    As far as not sharing needles goes, I never said that there was no benefit to these places.

    I said that I believe that the resources could be better spent by helping those that want help.
    People that are using these places aren’t looking for help with their addiction.

    I knew my comment sounded cold hearted, I stated it as such.

    Your passion on the subject seems to have blinded you on what I’m actually saying.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:28 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:Let me put it this way

    Your daughter ODs on heroin and lays unconscious under an overpass slowly dying, but the local LEO/EMTs have been instructed not to respond to them because it's a waste of time and money. Your daughter dies.

    Does that work too or no?


    Do you think this is a realistic argument?


    Did you think yours was? Both scenarios happen...



    Mine absolutely 100% was realistic, I’ve worked that exact scenario more than once.

    Yours on the other hand has never happened in this country that I’m aware of.

    If you have proof, I’ll eat the crow.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:30 pm
  • Even as an ex heroin addict and IV user I'm torn on the idea of the sites. It just seems a bit too supportive. I'm far more comfortable with lower cost clean exchange programs. Those are a must. Without it you'll cause an HIV/Hep outbreak like that creepy governor from Indiana did.

    I would like to see a more federal approach to treatment vs funding these sites.
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Re: Injection Sites
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:35 pm
  • pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:
    pmedic920 wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:Let me put it this way

    Your daughter ODs on heroin and lays unconscious under an overpass slowly dying, but the local LEO/EMTs have been instructed not to respond to them because it's a waste of time and money. Your daughter dies.

    Does that work too or no?


    Do you think this is a realistic argument?


    Did you think yours was? Both scenarios happen...



    Mine absolutely 100% was realistic, I’ve worked that exact scenario more than once.

    Yours on the other hand has never happened in this country that I’m aware of.

    If you have proof, I’ll eat the crow.


    I'll eat some crow. There was a city council in Ohio that was thinking about passing a "3 strikes" ban on EMS responding to drug overdoses. They received enough backlash for them to scrap it. I thought it had passed and was in effect.
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