Whoever thinks those who produce hip hop aren't musicians have probably never had to program an Akai MPC or spend hours trying to track out a series of notes they hear in their head. Programming these devices is effectively the same exact thing as writing sheet music. Someone who writes sheet music is a musician, so why not someone who programs their song into a sequencer? Sounds like a clear cut case of short sighted condescension to me.

It's kinda sad that there are some who would take an elitist stance on music when the crap they listen to qualifies for the "oldies" bin at any record store. That's not to say we should ignore the classics, but lots of great music has been composed since that time. Jus' sayin'.

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Feel free to contact me if you need legal assistance. I have a great lawyer that helped me with an ex who violated my privacy and kept harassing me on MySpace and Facebook. He's very good. And there is legal precedent. - linuxpro

He is hold back the legion of boom - skater18000

Good point. If Rob were to take Outkast at face value, he would write them off as just another hip-hop act, but that would belie the truth, which is Antwan "Big Boy" Patton and Andre "Andre 3000" Benjamin are multi instrumentalists who could easily put most musicians to shame with their skill. Admittedly, their technical breadth is not shared among many others in the hip-hop community, but they are undoubtedly some of the most talented musicians in the business. I just wish they would get their shit together and produce another record. Andre 3000 needs to give up the acting gig already.

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Feel free to contact me if you need legal assistance. I have a great lawyer that helped me with an ex who violated my privacy and kept harassing me on MySpace and Facebook. He's very good. And there is legal precedent. - linuxpro

He is hold back the legion of boom - skater18000

if they aren't playing the actual notes through some sort of instrument, how can they be considered a musician.. they're not playing anything.. pretty sure most people who can read/write music play some sort of instrument... i'm not taking anything away from the creative/artist point of view, just don't consider them musicians... besides you don't have to read/write music to be a musician..

if that makes me condescending or short sighted, guess i am.

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and if Andre and Big Boy can play instruments, then they're musicians and very talented artist no doubt...

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It does make you short sighted because what comprises an instrument seems to be a matter of your subjective opinion. It's not like you or Rob could just pick up an Akai MPC and program a masterpiece on it without first developing an extreme familiarity (read: practice) with the device, learning its quirks, learning how to shape the sounds it makes (you know, like bending strings on a guitar).

How about we go with the actual dictionary definition of "musician", rather than your personal opinion? (this is per www.dictionary.com)



So, given this definition of the word, how do hip-hop artists not qualify? Seems to me that if someone makes music, they are a musician.

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Feel free to contact me if you need legal assistance. I have a great lawyer that helped me with an ex who violated my privacy and kept harassing me on MySpace and Facebook. He's very good. And there is legal precedent. - linuxpro

He is hold back the legion of boom - skater18000

Music doesn't have to be good to be considered music. Musicians don't have to be good to be considered musicians. And just because the process has evolved doesn't make it any less music.

I appreciate somebody who can write music and play an instrument. Believe me, I do. I understand that it's a completely different skill set than somebody who can write lyrics and sing or rap. But being able to write and record a song from nothing, from an idea or an inspiration, no matter what tools you used or how you got there, IMO makes you a musician.

That said, I know hundreds of rappers and there's but a handful that I would actually consider musicians.

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Tanzania¹²

So I guess what you're saying is, someone with a Motif keyboard, hooked up to their MPC, or other sound racks hooked up to a midi controller aren't really musicians even though they're actually out there playing those keys? I don't get it.

As for Sampling (taking parts from a song and basically recreating it) I can see your point, but theres also the point of putting your own drum loops over it, through the MPC or any other method. Is that creating music? Are you just creating organized noise at that point?

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Sampling is a tool used by musicians, in my opinion. Relying too heavily on sampling is the sign of a hack but could you imagine all those early 90s hip-hop tracks WITHOUT Dr. Dre on the wheels of steel? Turntablism is a musical performing art, in my opinion, even if it does involve borrowing other people's beats.

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Feel free to contact me if you need legal assistance. I have a great lawyer that helped me with an ex who violated my privacy and kept harassing me on MySpace and Facebook. He's very good. And there is legal precedent. - linuxpro

He is hold back the legion of boom - skater18000

Samplings been around as long as hip hop, it's almost like something if you're a producer its something you should totally be capable of doing IMO, and do it well.

Personally I love it when a producer takes the best of both worlds, putting synths & keys over samples, stuff sounds amazing!

As someone whos seen the creative process and have done it before when it comes to producing a track, and I think Dunce and Zeb can say amen to it, its a process making beats, but there are points in the process where stuff just flows out of your head and its almost a high you get when it happens.

I don't do it much now, partly because i don't know why, I get angry when I try now because I'm forcing stuff. But when I was heavy into it, nothing was a better feeling than hitting that zone.

But people can say that hip hop producers aren't musicians, but I'd beg to differ. If anyone has seen guys like Black Milk or Hi-Tek at work (and you can, check out youtube) you'd see theres more than just playing around with noises.

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Looping a sample and putting drums on it is not that difficult, usually. But being able to sample well and creatively is a skill most do not possess.

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Tanzania¹²

A computer is an instrument. You give it input, it gives you outputs. If you believe that a keyboard is an instrument, then you believe that a computer is an instrument. A sampler is an instrument. Actually, anything can be an instrument. Les Claypool constructed the Whamola with a bass string, a double-bass neck and a pulley and a hinge. he plays it with a drumstick. That1guy made the magic pipe with some plumbing pipes and fittings, a couple of piano strings and a bunch of pickups. There's a famous Frank Zappa video when he was like 18 playing on an upturned bicycle with some drumsticks and making percussion sounds. Just because you don't think it's an instrument, doesn't mean it's not an instrument.

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again, i'm not taking anything away from the creative artistry of producers rappers whatever.. i think what they do is a skilled craft and some of it is very impressive.. i was talking more of the sampling part of it.. (yes i think you can still be a musician and sample music into the piece, if you're playing along with it at some point) ...

unless you are actually creating the notes that in turn creats the musical piece whether live or recording, you are not a musician.. if you take a piece of pre-recorded music or single notes and add it to a song, you are not creating that music, you are however creating a musical piece (song), there's a difference...

as far as a computer, tell me what notes can you produce on a computer that wasn't already pre-recorded in it's memory?

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Do you know how a keyboard works?

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The difference exists solely in your head, I think. Musicians create music. Hip-hop artists create hip-hop. Hip-hop is music. Therefore by nature of the transitive property, hip-hop artists are musicians.

Most hip-hop music isn't even sampled anymore. The vast majority of it is created from scratch using things like live instruments, sequencers, synthesizers (you know, like those made famous by Steve Miller and Pink Floyd), and audio production software. There are relatively few discernible differences between producing rock and hip-hop. All music effectively requires the same base ingredients, I think all we are debating here is what you will personally consider to be a musical instrument.

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Feel free to contact me if you need legal assistance. I have a great lawyer that helped me with an ex who violated my privacy and kept harassing me on MySpace and Facebook. He's very good. And there is legal precedent. - linuxpro

He is hold back the legion of boom - skater18000

yes i know how keyboards work, i know they can sample, i know they have beat tracks, i know they have different sounds and can imulate different instruments and many other capabilities..

however somebody is usually manually playing the keys.. so please tell me how you can play a computer like a piano? i've been in bands where music was sequenced and we played to a click track, however we were still playing our instruments along with it...

you will never convince me that somebody playing a computer is the equivelent to somebody playing a piano, guitar, drums, trumpet... not the same...

and SmokinHawk - agreed , we have a difference of opinion on what constitutes a musical instrument.

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Synthesizers are infinite duh

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Attach a MIDI controller like an M-Audio Axiom to a PC, add a software package like FL Studio, watch as it suddenly becomes the world's most powerful synthesizer.

Most of the sequenced bits you hear in music today was probably tracked out by a guy playing on black 'n white keys. Does it make them less of a musician because they are recording the note data (facilitating easier editing, among other benefits), rather than the analog output of the instrument?

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Feel free to contact me if you need legal assistance. I have a great lawyer that helped me with an ex who violated my privacy and kept harassing me on MySpace and Facebook. He's very good. And there is legal precedent. - linuxpro

He is hold back the legion of boom - skater18000

You use existing scales and licks to compose your music, right? You've never played a I-IV-V or lifted a lick you learned when you were younger during a solo?

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The I-IV-V is the staple of most songs. Include a relative minor for embellishment on interludes or pre-choruses.

Everyone steals licks and maybe does different variations of them to "make it their own". And music is whatever the musician or listener likes/believes.

You can try and cram ideologies down someones throat but bottom line is each person has their own idea of what makes music and what does not.

yes i have my influences that shaped my core playing, but i took the time to learn the licks, learn the notes/chords learn the scales, learned the different techniques and perfected them.. any bass line that you can compose on a computer using sampled tracks, i can duplicate on an actual bass...

so what you're saying is in actuality i was human sampling?

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