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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:20 am 
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MLOhawks wrote:
American citizens should not have to carry papers, but any foreigners should.


So what do you do the first time a "foreign-looking" person says they are a citizen?

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:32 am 
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Snohomie wrote:
MLOhawks wrote:
American citizens should not have to carry papers, but any foreigners should.


So what do you do the first time a "foreign-looking" person says they are a citizen?


It sounds fucked up, but that is actually the way things are legally. I know firsthand about this. Citizens are not required to carry any papers stating citizenship, obviously. Resident Aliens are required to have their green card on them for purposes of identification. Once they become citizens, they don't.

It has nothing to do with being "foreign-looking" or anything else. That is the law as it has stood for at least the past fifteen years or so.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:51 am 
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kidhawk wrote:
Vol this is why sometimes i just shake my head in here. You know good and well that even though immigration is a long standing issue especially since 9/11 and securing our borders, that the arizona law was first brought to light as a racist/bigoted law by the left which was answered by the right. I've never said that the right didn't jump all over it, just that the left brought it to national attention and that is a fact. You may not want to see it and I doubt you'll change your thought after this post so I'll just let you continue believe whatever you like


Ah, yes, the old "It's a fact because I said it's a fact" line. I've seen enough grandstanding from both parties to know that they both jump all over any hot-button issue without waiting for the opposition to open their mouths. Pardon me if I don't ignore that long-standing trend just because you claim something different is true.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:37 am 
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Debating the merits of the arizona law...........how can the DOJ have any substantial claim that the law is illegal when all it does is mimick the federal law? All this law does is give local law enforcement jurisdiction. Saying that a local cop can't do anything about an Illegal immigrant is like saying a cop can't touch a guy for bank robbery. I mean that's federal juristiction. They are always handed over to federal officials for trial and such, but it's not the fbi that makes the majority of arrests there. Local law enforcement is better equipped and more well manned to be the eyes and ears for the feds on these things. Let the local law find these people and turn them over to the feds. Besides this law doesn't allow them to just ask anyone they see for their papers, it has to be in the investigation of something else. Once a cop is questioning you, to ask you for Identification of papers should be standard protocol.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:39 am 
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kidhawk wrote:
Debating the merits of the arizona law...........how can the DOJ have any substantial claim that the law is illegal when all it does is mimick the federal law? All this law does is give local law enforcement jurisdiction. Saying that a local cop can't do anything about an Illegal immigrant is like saying a cop can't touch a guy for bank robbery. I mean that's federal juristiction. They are always handed over to federal officials for trial and such, but it's not the fbi that makes the majority of arrests there. Local law enforcement is better equipped and more well manned to be the eyes and ears for the feds on these things. Let the local law find these people and turn them over to the feds. Besides this law doesn't allow them to just ask anyone they see for their papers, it has to be in the investigation of something else. Once a cop is questioning you, to ask you for Identification of papers should be standard protocol.



Who said local cops can't do anything about illegal immigration? They always could (through the office of state and local coordination). That is not what this law does.


This law makes being an illegal alien a STATE crime. This law is not about granting local police jurisdiction, that happens all the time already, it makes a federal crime and turns it into a state crime.




And for the record, federal law allows a state to require someone identify themselves to police but states cannot require you carry identification, that was settled in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, states have no right to require their residents to carry identification. More than half the union (26 states and the federal government) do not even require people to identify themselves to the cops. You have the right to remain silent and that includes identification in 26 states plus federal jurisdiction. And even states that have stop and identify statutes aren't allowed to punish people for merely refusing to identify themselves (which is what this Arizona law does).


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:43 am 
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I'd still love an answer on how making people carry papers makes us safer and how you can enforce such a thing if citizens are not required to carry identification without racial profiling and harassing legal residents and citizens but I don't expect any of you to actually give me one (because its not possible).


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:54 pm 
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No... this thread will just die down because all the people backing it know that they are just promoting racial profiling even though they say they're against it.

Warner, every Arizona Immigration thread ends the same way...

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:17 pm 
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http://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/ ... cutive-act

USCIS Memo Details Administration's Plan to Provide Mass Amnesty Through Administrative Actions
Thursday, July 29, 2010, 2:35 PM EDT


A newly revealed memo, obtained by Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) who is leading the fight against amnesty, shows Obama Administration officials offering a detailed plan that would offer actual or de facto amnesty to millions of illegal aliens without Congress ever taking a vote.

The 11-page memo, drafted by Chief of Policy and Strategy for U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services Denise Vanison, outlines the various ways to offer a mass amnesty to the nation's 11-18 million illegal aliens through the use of administrative actions. The stated purpose of the memo is to offer "administrative relief options to promote family unity, foster economic growth, achieve significant process improvements and reduce the threat of removal for certain individuals present in the United States without authorization."

"The memo proposes 18 different ways for the Obama Administration to essentially eliminate our borders through regulatory fiat and in clear violation of the letter and the spirit of U.S. immigration laws, which Obama swore an oath to faithfully execute," said NumbersUSA's Director of Government Relations Rosemary Jenks.

The memo is an alternative plan to amnesty "in the absence of Comprehensive Immigration Reform." In addition to using deferred action and parole, which were previously identified in two separate letters drafted by Sen. Grassely and signed by 11 other Senators (read the first and second letters), the memo outlines ways that USCIS can extend benefits and protections to individuals and groups of people by lessening the standards used in "extreme hardship" cases.

Item 4 in the memo outlines ways the Obama Administration can provide amnesty for millions of illegal aliens through the "extreme hardship" provision. It would "encourage many more spouses, sons, and daughters of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents to seek relief without fear of removal. It would also increase the likelihood that such relief would be granted." Section 4 reads:

Lessen the Standard for Demonstrating "Extreme Hardship"

The Act at 212(a)(9)(B)(i)(I) and (II) renders inadmissible for 3 or 10 years individuals who have been unlawfully present in the U.S. for 180 days or one year respectively, and then depart. By statute, DHS has discretion to waive these grounds of inadmissibility for spouses, sons and daughters of U.S. citizens or lawful permanent residents if the refusal to admit such individuals would result in extreme hardship to their qualifying relatives. Generally, the "extreme hardship" standard has been narrowly construed by USCIS.

To increase the number of individuals applying for waivers, and improve their chances of receiving them, CIS could issue guidance or a regulation specifying a lower evidentiary standard for "extreme hardship." This would promote family unity, and avoid the significant human and financial costs associated with waiver denial decisions born of an overly rigid standard. This revised standard would also complement expanded use of PIP as set forth in B.

In addition to lessening the standard for demonstrating "extreme hardship", the memo details many more options that "have the potential to result in meaningful immigration reform absent legislative action."

Other options include: allowing aliens in the United States under Temporary Protected Status to adjust their status to Legal Permanent Resident, extending "grace periods" to leave the country for aliens on temporary work visa, changing the distribution time line for temporary workers on the H-2B visa, and granting up to 240 additional days on applications for employment authorization when the application is filed before the work authorization expiration date.

Denise Vanison has been an immigration attorney for more than 18 years. She advised multi-national and domestic corporate clients on employment of foreign nationals in the United States, I-9 employment verification and procurement of passports, visas, green cards and U.S. citizenship.

The memo was drafted for Director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services Director Alejandro Mayorkas. In addition to Denise Vanison, Roxana Bacon from the Chief Councel's office, Debra Rogers from Field Operations, and Donald Neufield from Service Center Operations were also listed as authors of the memo.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:38 pm 
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I actually think "racial" profiling is common sense in some cases, but if you don't allow it for some situations than it makes it hard to justify it for others.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:45 pm 
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Warner, to your question, it's not about making us safer, it's about dealing with a very real problem. I'm glad the judge did what he did, I just hope that enough attention has been drawn to the situation where the Federal Government will actually do something about it now. It's a shame that a state like Arizona has to take such drastic measures to try to alleviate a huge problem that the Federal Government should be taking care of.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:25 pm 
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How is making people carry identification solving the problem? Unless you expect citizens to do the same, what does it solve? What do you do when the person claims citizenship? Believe them? And we are back to, how does it solve the problem?


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with "Obama is soft on illegal immigration"
 New post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:26 pm 
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MLOhawks wrote:
I actually think "racial" profiling is common sense in some cases, but if you don't allow it for some situations than it makes it hard to justify it for others.



In other words, Hispanic citizens and legal residents should jar deal with the hassle?


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