IcedHawk
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The league started in 1976. Get it right.Dick Johnson":2c1px7cp said:
Jerry Rice Versus Richard Sherman Rant
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loafoftatupu
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Rice has every right.
While I certainly loathe the Niners, when it comes to receivers there just wasn't any better. Any of us that were football aware in the 80s know this.
No.. Sherman could not shut him down, nobody could. Rice was simply the best combination of speed, size, hands, brains and work ethic that the NFL had to offer. He wasn't big, but he was tall enough. He could make the circus catch, the leaping grab, the slant. He was doing the WR screen before it was popular.
Like Harvin you just had to get the ball in his hands. He was elusive after the catch and dangerous as they come down field, even like Megatron. He was a lot tougher than people give him credit for and consistent as Largent with the ball in the vicinity of being caught.
There is one thing to consider with Rice though, having Taylor, Jones and a RB who frequently caught passes made it easy to get open. That said, it was amazing that he produced at the level he did with the amount of balls going elsewhere. In the 80s you could have any of the SF offensive skill players on your Fantasy team (yes, we did it on paper even back then) and you were assured production.
I don't think Rice is the same guy without the Niners offense, but on a team of experts at their position, Rice stood out as the feature guy and made it look easy. Sherman might have been able to slow him down a little, but Rice just didn't get shut down. There were few games that he wasn't a factor.
Nope.. not Sherman, Revis or Sanders could stop him for an entire game. If they did, they were likely to get torched by Taylor anyway.
While I certainly loathe the Niners, when it comes to receivers there just wasn't any better. Any of us that were football aware in the 80s know this.
No.. Sherman could not shut him down, nobody could. Rice was simply the best combination of speed, size, hands, brains and work ethic that the NFL had to offer. He wasn't big, but he was tall enough. He could make the circus catch, the leaping grab, the slant. He was doing the WR screen before it was popular.
Like Harvin you just had to get the ball in his hands. He was elusive after the catch and dangerous as they come down field, even like Megatron. He was a lot tougher than people give him credit for and consistent as Largent with the ball in the vicinity of being caught.
There is one thing to consider with Rice though, having Taylor, Jones and a RB who frequently caught passes made it easy to get open. That said, it was amazing that he produced at the level he did with the amount of balls going elsewhere. In the 80s you could have any of the SF offensive skill players on your Fantasy team (yes, we did it on paper even back then) and you were assured production.
I don't think Rice is the same guy without the Niners offense, but on a team of experts at their position, Rice stood out as the feature guy and made it look easy. Sherman might have been able to slow him down a little, but Rice just didn't get shut down. There were few games that he wasn't a factor.
Nope.. not Sherman, Revis or Sanders could stop him for an entire game. If they did, they were likely to get torched by Taylor anyway.
Hawkstorian
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Seahawk Fan Looking for Disrespect Where it isn't Really There Thread #521
Axx
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how about the obvious factor that ALL NFL athletes today are superior that to the ones compared to in the past
Popeyejones":38ergc3a said:
True. But would a single player for the Lions not called Calvin Johnson get a start for the 49ers in the 80s/90s?
The fact of the matter is - yes, the league is more of a passing game than ever these days, but it's a hell of a lot easier to succeed with Montana and Young behind centre, who - in their 19 combined seasons as starters for the 49ers had just one season with less than 60% completion percentage (59.9% in 88).
But as great as Largent was, there's not a single person on the planet who would take him over Megatron
Conversely, the guy who held every receiving record until Rice came along had to cope with QBs who broke that mark just twice during his entire career (Krieg with 60 and 60.5%)
Popeyejones
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CPHawk":301b7iyi said:
You're treating a quarterback and wide receiver as independent, and they're not, though.
Let's look at Rice when he was in his prime in years in which he did not have Montana or Young.
In 1986 Montana missed half the season, and he was mediocre when he did play (8TDs, 9INT, and an 80 QB rating). Jerry Rice had 1640 Yards and 16 TDs
In 1995, a year in which Steve Young missed a third of the season and had his worst year statistically, Jerry Rice had 1879 yards and 16 TDs.
I also don't think Calvin's best season is as good as this season, despite the fact he is playing in a passing era that we've never seen before.
Calvin had 1964 yards and 5 touchdowns. He accounted for 40% of his team's receiving yards and 23% of his teams receiving touchdowns.
Rice had 1848 receiving yards and 15 receiving touchdowns. He too accounted for 40% of his team's receiving yards but 52% of his team's receiving touchdowns.
Jerry Rice is an @sshole, that's totally undisputed, but he made Montana and Young who they were as much as they made him. In fact, two of his best statistical seasons with the 49ers were with Jeff Kemp, Mike Moroski, and Elvis Grbac spending as much time under center as Montana and Young. Stafford is no Montana or Young for sure, but he's no Kemp, Moroski or Grbac either.
jammerhawk
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Ask after a few more seasons.
Rice demonstrated he was the best in the game during his time. Sherman is a very talented CB and one of the best in the league which has changed to the real advantage of WRs and Sherm is shutting the 1 WR down game after game.
In the end we'll never know b/c they'll never play each other.
This is actually a silly question that is unanswerable. Sherm would give Rice a hard time but at present the edge in my mind goes to Rice b/c of the length of his demonstrated superiority however the comparison will never be apples to apples.
Rice demonstrated he was the best in the game during his time. Sherman is a very talented CB and one of the best in the league which has changed to the real advantage of WRs and Sherm is shutting the 1 WR down game after game.
In the end we'll never know b/c they'll never play each other.
This is actually a silly question that is unanswerable. Sherm would give Rice a hard time but at present the edge in my mind goes to Rice b/c of the length of his demonstrated superiority however the comparison will never be apples to apples.
ImTheScientist
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TwilightError":3qtia8n0 said:
Taking the high road is a simple place for Rice to go. Everyone would know he is doing that..... He could have just said "Sherman is a beast" or "Calvin probably will when its all said and done if healthy".
Then that stops the questions, they move on, etc.
nsport
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It's pretty simple - the era's are different. I feel like Rice was the best of his generation. Whether Sherman could have covered him is irrelevant, and Calvin Johnson would not have prospered back then, as giant receivers were not desired - nor were giant corners.
One element is strikingly true is how the game has evolved - now everyone wants a Calvin Johnson - tall, great wingspan, leaping ability, and the more shifty/mobile the better. Dez, Calvin, Brandon, etc. Calvin is the best of today's bunch based on his continued improvement and length of time he has done it. He's the one who redefined the position.
The Seahawks are redefining the corner position - nobody wanted tall corners fearing their ability to change direction and longevity. Now everyone will pursue players over 6 feet tall in hopes of finding their own Sherman and Browner. Deion Sanders might be the only corner of his era with that had no equal in his day. The same cannot be said about Sherman, although Sherman's stack rank among his peers still probably has him as #1 overall - same as Deion.
Overall, Rice could have responded a bit more PC - but he's a hall of famer and did it for a full generation (except his days with the Hawks!) and deserves to carry that chip on his shoulder. Although he could have easily thrown Sherman a bone - probably would have if he played for the Niners and not the Seahawks.
One element is strikingly true is how the game has evolved - now everyone wants a Calvin Johnson - tall, great wingspan, leaping ability, and the more shifty/mobile the better. Dez, Calvin, Brandon, etc. Calvin is the best of today's bunch based on his continued improvement and length of time he has done it. He's the one who redefined the position.
The Seahawks are redefining the corner position - nobody wanted tall corners fearing their ability to change direction and longevity. Now everyone will pursue players over 6 feet tall in hopes of finding their own Sherman and Browner. Deion Sanders might be the only corner of his era with that had no equal in his day. The same cannot be said about Sherman, although Sherman's stack rank among his peers still probably has him as #1 overall - same as Deion.
Overall, Rice could have responded a bit more PC - but he's a hall of famer and did it for a full generation (except his days with the Hawks!) and deserves to carry that chip on his shoulder. Although he could have easily thrown Sherman a bone - probably would have if he played for the Niners and not the Seahawks.
Evil_Shenanigans
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First of all, Jerry Rice “statistically” is the Benchmark by which all receivers judge themselves until someone comes along and supplants him “statistically”. He has set practically every record of consequence for receiving in the NFL. That being said I believe he has, to some extent earned the right to have a somewhat lofty opinion of himself. That the national media, and Niner fans the world over have blown so much sunshine up his rear over the years that he could power a small Scandinavian country with the Solar Energy alone is an aside. He is also allowed to have an opinion of how he “theoretically” compares to the best Cornerback (Love ya Sherm!) in the league today! Sherman has talked a lot over the last few years about his own personal prowess as a player. And he has backed up most, if not all of it with actions! In time I think this will become a much more palpable comparison to make as Sherman wins over some of that same national press with his sustained excellence in the league. I personally would take a piece of the action were you able to conceive a way to pair these two at their peak in a Mano a Mano beat down. But you can’t, so it is down to opinion. My opinion is that it would be jump ball.
Now Rice VS Calvin Johnson? Calvin just might be the guy to do exactly what I said in the first sentence! That he is doing it with Stafford, who I rate very highly, is testament to the skill level there. So by proxy, if you look at how Sherman has fared against Calvin, or for that matter most of the elite receivers in the league at the moment, he has made a pretty strong case for himself in this theoretical Battle Royale.
Now Rice VS Calvin Johnson? Calvin just might be the guy to do exactly what I said in the first sentence! That he is doing it with Stafford, who I rate very highly, is testament to the skill level there. So by proxy, if you look at how Sherman has fared against Calvin, or for that matter most of the elite receivers in the league at the moment, he has made a pretty strong case for himself in this theoretical Battle Royale.
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If you ask me, comparing Rice to Johnson is an apples to oranges deal.
It was a different NFL back when Rice was setting all those records. The conventional wisdom of the time, with respect to the size and speed of corners and safeties, was totally different, and so was the way defenses covered. In that era Rice was taller and faster than most, and the system he operated in was not yet fully comprehended and defended like it is now. Erase 20 years off Rice's age and insert him into the Lions lineup with Stafford the gunslinger throwing and his stats are nowhere near what he accomplished in the 80's. Rice was good because of Walsh, Montana, and inept defenses not yet tuned-in to defending the WCO.
Johnson is taller, stronger, and (IMO) faster than Rice, is playing in a completely different offensive system, against defenses that can shut down WC routes, and is being covered by faster and stronger (and better coached) DB's.
I'll take Johnson over any receiver in history.
It was a different NFL back when Rice was setting all those records. The conventional wisdom of the time, with respect to the size and speed of corners and safeties, was totally different, and so was the way defenses covered. In that era Rice was taller and faster than most, and the system he operated in was not yet fully comprehended and defended like it is now. Erase 20 years off Rice's age and insert him into the Lions lineup with Stafford the gunslinger throwing and his stats are nowhere near what he accomplished in the 80's. Rice was good because of Walsh, Montana, and inept defenses not yet tuned-in to defending the WCO.
Johnson is taller, stronger, and (IMO) faster than Rice, is playing in a completely different offensive system, against defenses that can shut down WC routes, and is being covered by faster and stronger (and better coached) DB's.
I'll take Johnson over any receiver in history.
King Dog
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HansGruber":3nbt4o53 said:
That's just silly. Sherman may be the tallest CB Rice faced but faster than any cornerback he ever faced? Sherman isn't even very fast. Guys like Deion and Darrell Green make Sherman look about as fast as Red Bryant.
Popeyejones
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themunn":2odhm5i4 said:
Or we could put this another way: Rice was playing in an era where completing more than 60% of your passes was considered very good, whereas Calvin is playing in an era where completing less than 60% of your passes is considered very bad.
For Calvin's biggest season Stafford did only complete 59.8% of his passes, but he also threw ball 727 times (the most passes in a season in the history of the NFL) for 4967 yards (the 7th most passing yards in the history of the NFL). The season you're referring to '88 the 9ers attempted 556 passes compared to Stafford's 727 (e.g. 25% less passes thrown and the same completion percentage).
Rice was also top 7 in receptions, yards, and TDs that year, which doesn't sound that great, until you remember that he was 36 years old by that point. There are only two times in the history of the NFL when a WR had a season as good as this past the age of 35: That was Jerry Rice when he was 39 years old, and Jerry Rice when he was 40 years old.
Seriously, he has always been a jerk, but his ability as football player is pretty unimpeachable, IMO.
Popeyejones
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HoustonHawk82":1he43c55 said:
Not totally opposed to the totality of your argument, but this isn't accurate. Rice fell to the middle of the first round because we wasn't as big, strong, and fast as most. He ran a 4.71 40 yard dash.
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Popeyejones":da5ysjdm said:
That's fair. I still stand behind the argument that Rice's success was mostly due to the system and the way it was defended at the time. If you look at the DB's that covered him compared to those covering receivers now, different story also.
It's interesting how the body-types and schemes have evolved since then. Johnson is up against an entirely different set of obstacles than Rice was.
nsport
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HoustonHawk82":15w49nr0 said:
The beauty of Rice was his first few steps of ANY ROUTE were exactly the same. DB's rarely stood a chance guessing what cut he would make. I think the WCO had some option elements in it as well that opened him up that were unique for the times.
HawkFan72
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Careful, that's one of the greatest Seahawks receivers of all time you're talking about!
sekiuHAWK":d0i4yw9k said:
umm NO! He's very little chance at breaking ALL of Rice's records. It would be a miracle if he breaks any of Rice's career records. Rice had 9 seasons with 10+ Td's, so far Johnson has just 3. Rice played for 21 seasons- Only 2 of which he didn't play at least 11 games (17 years with full 16 games played). Johnson is in year 7.
To illustrate the unbelievable nature of Rice's career records.
At this very moment Johnson is 14,238 yards and 136 TD's behind Rice.
If Johnson plays 10 more years he's had to average 1,423 yards and 13 TD's for the rest of his career to match Rice ( I know this year isn't over so those figures will be lowered a little but the point remains) Johnson would have to play another decade at an ALL-Pro level to match Rice.
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