Jerry Rice Versus Richard Sherman Rant

jlwaters1 · Nov 6, 2013

HoustonHawk82":1ickt3k6 said:
If you ask me, comparing Rice to Johnson is an apples to oranges deal.

It was a different NFL back when Rice was setting all those records. The conventional wisdom of the time, with respect to the size and speed of corners and safeties, was totally different, and so was the way defenses covered. In that era Rice was taller and faster than most, and the system he operated in was not yet fully comprehended and defended like it is now. Erase 20 years off Rice's age and insert him into the Lions lineup with Stafford the gunslinger throwing and his stats are nowhere near what he accomplished in the 80's. Rice was good because of Walsh, Montana, and inept defenses not yet tuned-in to defending the WCO.

Johnson is taller, stronger, and (IMO) faster than Rice, is playing in a completely different offensive system, against defenses that can shut down WC routes, and is being covered by faster and stronger (and better coached) DB's.

I'll take Johnson over any receiver in history.

You're mistaken when you say that He was bigger and faster than CB's and safeties in his day. He ran a 4.7 at the combine. He wasn't a burner. There were plenty of faster/ bigger players he went up against. Furthermore Johnson has it much easier today than Rice did. With the rules changes he has a much easier path to make plays do to the rules being in favor of the offense. defenses are worse today than in the past. Passing defenses are very suspect in today's game. More players are throwing for 300+ yards than at anytime in history.

Lastly Rice was critical in SF winning 4 championships, yet Johnson with all his brilliance has made the postseason just once and his best season came when the team finished a dismal 4-12.

I completely disagree Rice is the greatest WR to ever play the game, and there's an argument to be made that he's the best football player to ever play the game.

Jase · Nov 6, 2013

SirTed · Nov 6, 2013

This is an easy one for me.

Jerry is probably right. Nobody could cover Jerry, so it's no disrespect for him to say that he doesn't think Sherman could. Just the same, Sherman is a competitor - so I understand where he's coming from too.

To take it even further, 80% of the backups in the league probably feel that they are better than the guy who's in front of them on the depth chart. They just either "haven't gotten their shot" or "aren't put in situations to succeed". That's the mentality it takes to play sports, or be good at anything on the level we're talking about.

Why even get caught up on some BS like this?

jblaze · Nov 6, 2013

Rice is an over confident prick. I always respect ex-players a lot more when they give current players props and celebrate talent and achievement. Otherwise, it just smells of hateraid and elitism.

Rice was very lucky to play a LONG time with two very good QB's and supporting casts including a west coast scheme designed to get the WR's the ball early and often.

I'm of the mind that today's players are better than yesteryear's players. They're bigger, faster and more prepared with today's technology and designs.

Calvin Johnson is a better player right now than Rice was in his heyday.

Popeyejones · Nov 6, 2013

SirTed":1vee12cf said:
To take it even further, 80% of the backups in the league probably feel that they are better than the guy who's in front of them on the depth chart. They just either "haven't gotten their shot" or "aren't put in situations to succeed". That's the mentality it takes to play sports, or be good at anything on the level we're talking about.

Great point, and well said.

imnKOgnito · Nov 6, 2013

G GS Rec Yds Avg Lng TD
2002 Oakland Raiders 16 16 92 1,211 13.2 75 7

This is Jerry Rice's stat line the year he turned 40. He played 3 more seasons after this. If you took just his numbers AFTER he turned 30, he'd still be a shoo in for the HoF. There was never anything 'lucky' about Jerry Rice. I'd love to see Sherman up against Rice in his prime. I'm sure they'd both win some and both lose some and come away with a great deal of respect for each other. But seriously, for anyone to infer that Jerry Rice was a product of anything other than his hard work, dedication, and professionalism is ludicrous. If not the best player to ever play the game, he's on a very short list of players in consideration.

Popeyejones · Nov 6, 2013

jblaze":2s76zllw said:
including a west coast scheme designed to get the WR's the ball early and often.

Put this in perspective, though. Of course Rice statistically benefited from playing in a pass first offense, but you don't think CJ statistically benefits from playing in what is essentially a pass only offense?

Is it any surprise that Johnson's two best seasons came in years in which his QB threw the most passes in the history of the NFL, and the fifth most passes in the history of the NFL? For Rice, in his pass first offense, the most his QB ever through for was the 186th most pass attempts in NFL history (Montana), and the 200th most pass attempts in NFL history (Young).

Claiming that Rice's pass-first scheme gave him an unfair advantage against CJ is just quite frankly bizarre.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think if this wasn't a Seahawks board 50% of the people siding for CJ wouldn't be, and if we additionally limited it to people who were watching football when Rice was in his prime (as CJ now is), it would be closer to 95%.

None of that is meant to take anything away from CJ though. He's incredibly skilled as a WR, one of the best players in the league, so far looks to be one of the best WRs of all time, and unlike Rice, he's a complete and total physical specimen. He's what you would create if you were making a WR in a lab. I still don't think he comes anywhere close to Rice, though. Rice is a special case, in that he's probably the only player in the history of the NFL who is undeniably the greatest of all time at his position. For every other position there is dispute. For WR, it's Rice, and then debates about who is second.

JGreen79 · Nov 6, 2013

Scottemojo":hc3dduaj said:
They are all hypothetical opinion questions, and thus stupid.
The one truth is that Rice is as ass. He calls himself GOAT. Which means he could never admit anyone is as good as him. Never.

Exactly, but how do you even measure GOAT? IMO the GOAT rb doesn't even hold a single record as far as I know. I think Alexander broke his last one, for consecutive games with a 10yd run.

Anonymous · Nov 6, 2013

jlwaters1":85haisae said:
HoustonHawk82":85haisae said:

If you ask me, comparing Rice to Johnson is an apples to oranges deal.

It was a different NFL back when Rice was setting all those records. The conventional wisdom of the time, with respect to the size and speed of corners and safeties, was totally different, and so was the way defenses covered. In that era Rice was taller and faster than most, and the system he operated in was not yet fully comprehended and defended like it is now. Erase 20 years off Rice's age and insert him into the Lions lineup with Stafford the gunslinger throwing and his stats are nowhere near what he accomplished in the 80's. Rice was good because of Walsh, Montana, and inept defenses not yet tuned-in to defending the WCO.

Johnson is taller, stronger, and (IMO) faster than Rice, is playing in a completely different offensive system, against defenses that can shut down WC routes, and is being covered by faster and stronger (and better coached) DB's.

I'll take Johnson over any receiver in history.

Click to expand...

You're mistaken when you say that He was bigger and faster than CB's and safeties in his day. He ran a 4.7 at the combine. He wasn't a burner. There were plenty of faster/ bigger players he went up against. Furthermore Johnson has it much easier today than Rice did. With the rules changes he has a much easier path to make plays do to the rules being in favor of the offense. defenses are worse today than in the past. Passing defenses are very suspect in today's game. More players are throwing for 300+ yards than at anytime in history.

Lastly Rice was critical in SF winning 4 championships, yet Johnson with all his brilliance has made the postseason just once and his best season came when the team finished a dismal 4-12.

I completely disagree Rice is the greatest WR to ever play the game, and there's an argument to be made that he's the best football player to ever play the game.

Ok, JLW, gotta question for you:

You are Richard Sherman, with all his talent and stature on the outside, but your soul and brain operates his body. You make all the decisions and are 100% up to speed mentally with your assignments and skills.

You are given a choice to make one final set of 15 practice reps in front of coaches and staff to earn a spot on the football team. You are asked to defend an elite receiver, in a designed set of routes/patterns and situations, and will be evaluated as to your ability to deny this receiver any catches. The quarterback for this test is Mr. Russell Wilson.

You are asked to choose your poison between two receivers. Both are in their respective primes, are 100% fully healthy, and all available protective gear is available. Finally, an NFL side judge from circa 1995 will be observing all plays and will throw flags based on the NFL rules of that season.

Which wide receiver do you choose to defend and why?
A.) 2013 version of Calvin Johnson
B.) 1990 version of Jerry Rice

themunn · Nov 6, 2013

Popeyejones":1ylaaod5 said:
themunn":1ylaaod5 said:

The fact of the matter is - yes, the league is more of a passing game than ever these days, but it's a hell of a lot easier to succeed with Montana and Young behind centre, who - in their 19 combined seasons as starters for the 49ers had just one season with less than 60% completion percentage (59.9% in 88).

Click to expand...

Or we could put this another way: Rice was playing in an era where completing more than 60% of your passes was considered very good, whereas Calvin is playing in an era where completing less than 60% of your passes is considered very bad.

Yet his quarterbacks did it 18 out of a possible 19 years as starting QBs for the 49ers, ie. they were very good in every year.

For Calvin's biggest season Stafford did only complete 59.8% of his passes, but he also threw ball 727 times (the most passes in a season in the history of the NFL) for 4967 yards (the 7th most passing yards in the history of the NFL). The season you're referring to '88 the 9ers attempted 556 passes compared to Stafford's 727 (e.g. 25% less passes thrown and the same completion percentage).

For Rice's biggest season (1995), Young and GrBac combined for 644 pass attempts with 426 completions, ie. just NINE completions less than Staffords 435 last year. Stafford may throw the ball more, but that doesn't mean a damn if the ball isn't catchable - and it's a hell of a lot easier to defend the pass when you know the pass is coming on the majority of snaps.
[/quote]

Rice was also top 7 in receptions, yards, and TDs that year, which doesn't sound that great, until you remember that he was 36 years old by that point. There are only two times in the history of the NFL when a WR had a season as good as this past the age of 35: That was Jerry Rice when he was 39 years old, and Jerry Rice when he was 40 years old.

Seriously, he has always been a jerk, but his ability as football player is pretty unimpeachable, IMO.

This comparison is redundanct because Johnson is not 35 yet.
The is no doubt Rice is better than everybody else that's ever played the position (except possibly Largent), but we won't ever be able to REALLY compare Rice and Megatron until their careers are both over.
Currently, Johnson has more yards than Rice did at a similar stage in his career (both started at around the same age), and whilst he has fewer TDs, it's still a record that's in reach - Rice's TDs dropped dramatically when he reached his early 30s, but Johnson's massive frame means that when he does eventually lose his speed, it won't have as significant an effect, so I expect he will continue to consistently reach double digit TDs.
The only thing that will really stand in Johnson's way of surpassign is injuries - he's been relatively healthy, m issing just 5 games in 6.5 years, but Rice was arguably the best ever when it came to that, playing every game in 18 of his first 19 years in the league.

themunn · Nov 6, 2013

Popeyejones":18wkhn2r said:
Jerry Rice is an @sshole, that's totally undisputed, but he made Montana and Young who they were as much as they made him. In fact, two of his best statistical seasons with the 49ers were with Jeff Kemp, Mike Moroski, and Elvis Grbac spending as much time under center as Montana and Young. Stafford is no Montana or Young for sure, but he's no Kemp, Moroski or Grbac either.

Maybe Young, we can never really say for sure given Young never really played without him, but given Montana won 2 superbowls prior to Rice being drafted and had his 2nd and 4th best seasons statistically in the 2 seasons immediately before drafting Rice, it's safe to say he made himself

lukerguy · Nov 6, 2013

Last I checked, Rice is the greatest receiver of all time. Sherm has a lot to do before he gets there.

Lords of Scythia · Nov 6, 2013

sekiuHAWK":4j33q7pn said:
I just watched an interview with Jerry Rice on the NFL network where Rice was asked if he thought Sherman had the ability to shut down Rice when Rice was still playing. Rice looked disgusted and irritated that he was being asked this question. Rice's reply was a very quick 'no'. To me it seemed almost disrespectful and over confident. Later on in the day Sherman tweeted to Rice that it sure is easy for Rice to talk when he isn't able to prove it on the field which is exactly what I was thinking during the Rice interview.

During Rice's interview he was also asked about Calvin Johnson breaking one of Rice's records last season and the possibility that Calvin might break all of Rice's records eventually. Rice again was somewhat disrespectful as he talked about Johnson. Rice indicated that Johnson wasn't yet a complete player (but on his way to becoming one). I thought this was absurd; Johnson almost had 2,000 yards receiving in a year! Johnson also just had the best receiving game in history (overtime excluded) only a few weeks back. In my opinion Calvin has already proved that, at his best, he is more dominant than Jerry Rice ever was. I may not be right, but I think it is at least a debatable topic.

Anyway, my point is that Jerry was running his mouth about a player who is clearly one of the best WRs to ever play the game and is still young. He also ran his mouth about Sherman. Sherman, in my opinion, is one of the best CBs, if not the best CB, in the league right now.

So back to Sherman's tweet... Rice could have approached the questions he was asked during his interview in many different ways, especially because we will never know what the answers are to these questions he was asked. He could have let the stats speak for themselves or he could have run his mouth and try to remind us all of how special he was. Rice choose to run his mouth. And we all know how Sherman feels about people who run their mouths... I wish a day would come where this match-up could happen (time travel or something) because i would pay to see Sherman ask Rice 'You mad Bro?'.

BTW, I think a player like Calvin Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, etc. would have answered these questions differently; with more respect. Rice, in my opinion, is insecure and a dick and in my opinion was never a true Hawk but only a dick who tried to steal a true Hawk's number... rant over...

I apologize if this topic was already posted... I looked for it but couldn't find anything; I thought it was worth mentioning though.

This is what Madden is for.

NorCal · Nov 6, 2013

HansGruber":175q8vt7 said:
justafan":175q8vt7 said:

They beat better CBs than Sherman.

Click to expand...

Name one. The only CB as good as Sherman he ever faced was Deion Sanders and having watched them both, I think Sherman is better.

Way to discount guys like Darrell Green and Rod Woodson. And I think its pretty much a consensus that Deion was the best cover corner ever. Plus, you have to take into account the rules in place at the time. I think it just makes the comparisons more difficult.

seatownlowdown · Nov 6, 2013

talent wise? calvin johnson>jerry rice, in fact randy moss>jerry rice

jerry ran a 4.71 40 at his combine. compare that to calvin who ran a 4.32 40. or randy who ran 4.25. also factor in the height and vertical jump difference. randy and calvin were/are gamechangers. if you dont atleast double and gameplan around them, they destroy you. even having to double/triple team them opens things up incredibly for the offense. very few, if any could actually cover these guys 1v1.

the same just isnt true for jerry. jerry was a great route runner in his prime and had good hands. but as aforementioned he played on all star teams with hof quarterbacks. the same CANT be said for calvin or randy (except 1 RIDICULOUS year with brady... which btw is a great example).

jerry just never had the talent to be held in the same breathe as those two. i can comfortably say this because i watched jerry growing up as the 49ers being my dads fav team as i grew up. he wasnt too happy when i tore down the jerry rice poster he bought me lol.

anyway that all being said, its hard to imagine anybody having the complete CAREER of jerry rice. but if anybody could cover rice, sherm could. sherm hasnt had the career of a rod woodson/deon/etc but hes atleast on his way.

Geologic · Nov 6, 2013

Jerry Rice is arguably the greatest player of all time. He has the right to be cocky, just like Michael Jordan. If Deion couldn't cover Jerry Rice then Sherman could not.

drdiags · Nov 6, 2013

It was stupid for the NFL Network folks to even go there. It was disrespectful for those jokers to put anyone on the spot with this re-make of Jerry Jones' "Deion could shut down Calvin Johnson" idiocy.

For the OP to get worked up because Jerry said no just feeds into the insanity. What self-respecting athlete is going to cow down to the new-era athlete just to join in the butt kissing parade?

CEHawk · Nov 6, 2013

To be honest I don't think Rice or Calvin Johnson would do much against Sherman in today's game with todays rules, with Seattle safeties at temperatures from 65-75 degrees, no rain and if all players were healthy..... lol There are too many factors to weigh this objectively, all you can see is either one would most likely get shut down by the Seattle defense. We know for a fact Calvin only racked up 46 yards on 3 catches on 8 targets with two drops last year. They say his knees were sore, sounds like his hands were sore.

justafan · Nov 6, 2013

I just think its funny that people rail on Rice for a simple thing like this but love Shermans arrogance and all his trash talking.

plyka · Nov 6, 2013

sekiuHAWK":2w1dnnth said:
I just watched an interview with Jerry Rice on the NFL network where Rice was asked if he thought Sherman had the ability to shut down Rice when Rice was still playing. Rice looked disgusted and irritated that he was being asked this question. Rice's reply was a very quick 'no'. To me it seemed almost disrespectful and over confident. Later on in the day Sherman tweeted to Rice that it sure is easy for Rice to talk when he isn't able to prove it on the field which is exactly what I was thinking during the Rice interview.

During Rice's interview he was also asked about Calvin Johnson breaking one of Rice's records last season and the possibility that Calvin might break all of Rice's records eventually. Rice again was somewhat disrespectful as he talked about Johnson. Rice indicated that Johnson wasn't yet a complete player (but on his way to becoming one). I thought this was absurd; Johnson almost had 2,000 yards receiving in a year! Johnson also just had the best receiving game in history (overtime excluded) only a few weeks back. In my opinion Calvin has already proved that, at his best, he is more dominant than Jerry Rice ever was. I may not be right, but I think it is at least a debatable topic.

Anyway, my point is that Jerry was running his mouth about a player who is clearly one of the best WRs to ever play the game and is still young. He also ran his mouth about Sherman. Sherman, in my opinion, is one of the best CBs, if not the best CB, in the league right now.

So back to Sherman's tweet... Rice could have approached the questions he was asked during his interview in many different ways, especially because we will never know what the answers are to these questions he was asked. He could have let the stats speak for themselves or he could have run his mouth and try to remind us all of how special he was. Rice choose to run his mouth. And we all know how Sherman feels about people who run their mouths... I wish a day would come where this match-up could happen (time travel or something) because i would pay to see Sherman ask Rice 'You mad Bro?'.

BTW, I think a player like Calvin Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, etc. would have answered these questions differently; with more respect. Rice, in my opinion, is insecure and a dick and in my opinion was never a true Hawk but only a dick who tried to steal a true Hawk's number... rant over...

I apologize if this topic was already posted... I looked for it but couldn't find anything; I thought it was worth mentioning though.

Calvin and Rice are not even on the same planet. Calvin had a GREAT game, and in any specific game, you may have an argument. But Rice did not choose what games to show up in like Calvin --he always showed up. And to take that even one level higher, it wasn't for 1 year or 2 years or even 3 years, it was for 10+ years. That's what it takes to get to Rice level.

Oh yeah, he not only did it in regular season games, he did it in superbowls, where it counts. Now in football, I understand it's up to more than just a WR whether a team gets to a SB or not. But if you're going to get to the best eva convo, then you gotta get their somehow --or at least in the playoffs year after year --and prove it.

Jerry Rice Versus Richard Sherman Rant

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