whats flynns eventual value?

HawkWow

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mikeak":3bns7w9i said:
T-Sizzle":3bns7w9i said:
When you have your Manning....backup is meaningless. Manning, Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers...... yup..their backups don't see the field. Our's will not see the field. Spend that money on securing guys we have that actually see the field.

Lets think a bit more about this one

Brady went down for a season. They had a guy on the bench that had been there for a few years. Cassell played good for the team to the point where many said Brady was a result of the system. I think more having a backup in the same system paid off and they coached well during that year. They then got plenty out of trading Cassell

Now lets look at Indy - playoff, playoff, playoff, superbowl, playoff, playoff or something like that - Manning goes down and they have no backup result worst team in the league!!!!

What other examples - Big Ben motorcycle crash and I think out for a few other reasons that year. Miss playoff. Bears last year Cutler goes down they were a lock for playoffs but missed playoffs because of a bad bench

Rodgers is partially a result of getting to sit on the bench as a backup

So if your point was that even good / great qb's need a competent backup so you don't throw away a season then I see the point thanks for the great examples :). The team as a whole is still not spending much money on the qb position. You need to keep Flynn OR trade him for a 1st or 2nd rounder and then use that pick / a lower pick for a rookie qb (low salary).

I guess the other option is picking up Vick for cheap :D


Excellent post.
 

haroldseattle

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His value on the Market just isn't up to his value to the Seahawks as a insurance plan.
 

ImTheScientist

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mikeak":3bi7a7i2 said:
T-Sizzle":3bi7a7i2 said:
When you have your Manning....backup is meaningless. Manning, Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers...... yup..their backups don't see the field. Our's will not see the field. Spend that money on securing guys we have that actually see the field.

Lets think a bit more about this one

Brady went down for a season. They had a guy on the bench that had been there for a few years. Cassell played good for the team to the point where many said Brady was a result of the system. I think more having a backup in the same system paid off and they coached well during that year. They then got plenty out of trading Cassell

Now lets look at Indy - playoff, playoff, playoff, superbowl, playoff, playoff or something like that - Manning goes down and they have no backup result worst team in the league!!!!

What other examples - Big Ben motorcycle crash and I think out for a few other reasons that year. Miss playoff. Bears last year Cutler goes down they were a lock for playoffs but missed playoffs because of a bad bench

Rodgers is partially a result of getting to sit on the bench as a backup

So if your point was that even good / great qb's need a competent backup so you don't throw away a season then I see the point thanks for the great examples :). The team as a whole is still not spending much money on the qb position. You need to keep Flynn OR trade him for a 1st or 2nd rounder and then use that pick / a lower pick for a rookie qb (low salary).

I guess the other option is picking up Vick for cheap :D

Thats fantastic, but if you are going to pay big bucks for a backup I would prefer we had an experienced proven vet. Why waste money on a backup QB with 2 games experience? Its not logical.
 

HawkWow

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T-Sizzle":rzjxjzof said:
mikeak":rzjxjzof said:
T-Sizzle":rzjxjzof said:
When you have your Manning....backup is meaningless. Manning, Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers...... yup..their backups don't see the field. Our's will not see the field. Spend that money on securing guys we have that actually see the field.

Lets think a bit more about this one

Brady went down for a season. They had a guy on the bench that had been there for a few years. Cassell played good for the team to the point where many said Brady was a result of the system. I think more having a backup in the same system paid off and they coached well during that year. They then got plenty out of trading Cassell

Now lets look at Indy - playoff, playoff, playoff, superbowl, playoff, playoff or something like that - Manning goes down and they have no backup result worst team in the league!!!!

What other examples - Big Ben motorcycle crash and I think out for a few other reasons that year. Miss playoff. Bears last year Cutler goes down they were a lock for playoffs but missed playoffs because of a bad bench

Rodgers is partially a result of getting to sit on the bench as a backup

So if your point was that even good / great qb's need a competent backup so you don't throw away a season then I see the point thanks for the great examples :). The team as a whole is still not spending much money on the qb position. You need to keep Flynn OR trade him for a 1st or 2nd rounder and then use that pick / a lower pick for a rookie qb (low salary).

I guess the other option is picking up Vick for cheap :D

Thats fantastic, but if you are going to pay big bucks for a backup I would prefer we had an experienced proven vet. Why waste money on a backup QB with 2 games experience? Its not logical.


I apparently misunderstood your previous post....that is why I described it as excellent. I was under the impression you had quit hating on Flynn and felt we should keep him as a back up. Now I see that's not the case, and that you were likey serious in considering Vick. I take it back.
 

SeahawkGeoff

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T-Sizzle":60538vke said:
mikeak":60538vke said:
T-Sizzle":60538vke said:
Thats fantastic, but if you are going to pay big bucks for a backup I would prefer we had an experienced proven vet. Why waste money on a backup QB with 2 games experience? Its not logical.

Just curious to know what proven vets you are thinking of ? Those type of guys are few and far between.
 

mikeak

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T-Sizzle":2xd5d80o said:
mikeak":2xd5d80o said:
Thats fantastic, but if you are going to pay big bucks for a backup I would prefer we had an experienced proven vet. Why waste money on a backup QB with 2 games experience? Its not logical.

It is not that much money that you are spending on the qb position as a whole. RW is locked into his contract and the only way to get a cheaper and as capable qb is by 1) Wasting a draft pick on a qb in the 1st maybe 2nd round and then you loose a starter elsewhere or 2) pick up a FA that is going to cost more or 3) trade for one but then you better believe you will pay even more

Tell me how you get someone that you think has the same potential to win games (not just to come in and start) for less money than you are paying Flynn and remember that we are not paying millions to the guy starting for another 2 years and are not allowed to renegotiate the contract with him for that time so it is not like he is going to sit out.........

So continue to pay less than $10 million for the two qb's on the roster and have a great starter with a solid backup ( you think) or free up a few million but end up one injury away from being a bottom feeder in the NFL......... to me it is an easy choice and I would only trade Flynn if I get enough picks to get another qb capable of winning games
 

seedhawk

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Flynn's "eventual" value is the same value this thread will have in "X" amount of years. Thanks for the memories and don't let the door bang you in the butt.
 

mikeak

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HawkWow":1antwplz said:
T-Sizzle":1antwplz said:
I apparently misunderstood your previous post....that is why I described it as excellent. I was under the impression you had quit hating on Flynn and felt we should keep him as a back up. Now I see that's not the case, and that you were likey serious in considering Vick. I take it back.

You liked my post which T-sizzle disagreed with so you can keep the excellent comment as we are different people :)

Vick was a joke
 

ImTheScientist

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SeahawkGeoff":3nliemsq said:
T-Sizzle":3nliemsq said:
Thats fantastic, but if you are going to pay big bucks for a backup I would prefer we had an experienced proven vet. Why waste money on a backup QB with 2 games experience? Its not logical.

Just curious to know what proven vets you are thinking of ? Those type of guys are few and far between.

Jason Campbell, Tjax, Matt Moore are three examples of guys that will be free agents next year.... all of which have played significant more time than Flynn you could pay them less money....and they are proven, veteran QBs with NFL starts under their belts.

You pay less money, for a guy that has shown he can play..... versus paying a lot of money for a guy that has proven nothing. Would you prefer a guy with 64 career games started at less money or a guy with 2 games started at a higher salary?

Even if you wanted to pay Campbell the same salary as Flynn I would be fine with that. Flynn is an unknown and Im not comfortable with the backup QB being an unknown. If you want an unknown you certainly shouldn't be paying him what he is making.
 

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T-Sizzle":pe1f6sx1 said:
So basically you sit on the fence until they win the Superbowl? At what point in your mind will PC and RW get your approval? I do agree there is a small fraction that overreact but the majority of the people here seem pretty level headed.

There's individual players, and then there's the entire team. No "sitting on any fence" when it comes to our team.
Player anointing or predictions being a different animal.

Rooks get the wait and see approach. It simply must be.
* But for the RW'rs out there: there are some games where RW looks promising (just that more needs to be seen).
 

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Matt Flynn 3/18/2012: Signed a three-year, $19.5 million contract. The deal contains $10 million guaranteed -- a $6 million signing bonus, Flynn's 2012 base salary, and $2 million of his second-year salary. Another $5 million is available through escalators. An additional $2 million worth of incentives is available, but is "unlikely to be earned." 2012: $2 million, 2013: $5.25 million, 2014: $6.25 million, 2015: Free Agent

Matt Moore 2.75 million

Jason Campbell Signed a one-year, $3.5 million contract. The deal included a $2 million signing bonus. Another $1 million is available through incentives based on playing time. 2012: $1.4 million (+ $100,000 workout bonus), 2013: Free Agent

Tjack 2012: $1.75 million, 2013: Free Agent

If I figured it right Seattle is paying him 6 million next year because of the guaranteed money, I might be wrong. Somebody correct me if I am. Campbell got payed 5.5 Million with signing bonus and there's incentives. I doubt he'll take much less then that next year. Tjack would be logical from a financial and playbook stand point, but why sign Flynn over Tjack in the first place. I think Carroll got what he needed out of Tjack and would only prosue this line is we could get draft pick(s) for Flynn. Matt Moore isn't a bad choice, he'll probably cost about the same as this year (2.75) with a signing bonus plus incentives. The biggest thing I would mention is Flynn as are Back up will have had one year under are offense in the books and be part of the team. I get what your saying but it's not going to change much if at all the budget or cap (Moore or Campbell), maybe a little (Tjack).
 

ImTheScientist

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SeahawkGeoff":gsgy5w65 said:
Matt Flynn 3/18/2012: Signed a three-year, $19.5 million contract. The deal contains $10 million guaranteed -- a $6 million signing bonus, Flynn's 2012 base salary, and $2 million of his second-year salary. Another $5 million is available through escalators. An additional $2 million worth of incentives is available, but is "unlikely to be earned." 2012: $2 million, 2013: $5.25 million, 2014: $6.25 million, 2015: Free Agent

Matt Moore 2.75 million

Jason Campbell Signed a one-year, $3.5 million contract. The deal included a $2 million signing bonus. Another $1 million is available through incentives based on playing time. 2012: $1.4 million (+ $100,000 workout bonus), 2013: Free Agent

Tjack 2012: $1.75 million, 2013: Free Agent

If I figured it right Seattle is paying him 6 million next year because of the guaranteed money, I might be wrong. Somebody correct me if I am. Campbell got payed 5.5 Million with signing bonus and there's incentives. I doubt he'll take much less then that next year. Tjack would be logical from a financial and playbook stand point, but why sign Flynn over Tjack in the first place. I think Carroll got what he needed out of Tjack and would only prosue this line is we could get draft pick(s) for Flynn. Matt Moore isn't a bad choice, he'll probably cost about the same as this year (2.75) with a signing bonus plus incentives. The biggest thing I would mention is Flynn as are Back up will have had one year under are offense in the books and be part of the team. I get what your saying but it's not going to change much if at all the budget or cap (Moore or Campbell), maybe a little (Tjack).

If you are going to spend the money, spend it on a proven commodity. Why would you pay Matt Flynn more than Jason Campbell......that alone and the numbers you listed above (right or wrong) indicate that Flynn is being overpaid and will be cut or take a huge pay cut. There is NO WAY pc and js will look at payroll and feel that is ok. They have been very smart with their money.
 

SeahawkGeoff

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T-Sizzle":1u41yv1d said:
SeahawkGeoff":1u41yv1d said:
Matt Flynn 3/18/2012: Signed a three-year, $19.5 million contract. The deal contains $10 million guaranteed -- a $6 million signing bonus, Flynn's 2012 base salary, and $2 million of his second-year salary. Another $5 million is available through escalators. An additional $2 million worth of incentives is available, but is "unlikely to be earned." 2012: $2 million, 2013: $5.25 million, 2014: $6.25 million, 2015: Free Agent

Matt Moore 2.75 million

Jason Campbell Signed a one-year, $3.5 million contract. The deal included a $2 million signing bonus. Another $1 million is available through incentives based on playing time. 2012: $1.4 million (+ $100,000 workout bonus), 2013: Free Agent

Tjack 2012: $1.75 million, 2013: Free Agent

If I figured it right Seattle is paying him 6 million next year because of the guaranteed money, I might be wrong. Somebody correct me if I am. Campbell got payed 5.5 Million with signing bonus and there's incentives. I doubt he'll take much less then that next year. Tjack would be logical from a financial and playbook stand point, but why sign Flynn over Tjack in the first place. I think Carroll got what he needed out of Tjack and would only prosue this line is we could get draft pick(s) for Flynn. Matt Moore isn't a bad choice, he'll probably cost about the same as this year (2.75) with a signing bonus plus incentives. The biggest thing I would mention is Flynn as are Back up will have had one year under are offense in the books and be part of the team. I get what your saying but it's not going to change much if at all the budget or cap (Moore or Campbell), maybe a little (Tjack).

If you are going to spend the money, spend it on a proven commodity. Why would you pay Matt Flynn more than Jason Campbell......that alone and the numbers you listed above (right or wrong) indicate that Flynn is being overpaid and will be cut or take a huge pay cut. There is NO WAY pc and js will look at payroll and feel that is ok. They have been very smart with their money.

The money is already spent. Weather Flynn is being overpaid or not he is guaranteed another 4 million no matter what. So there not going to cut him and pay him 4 million, that's just not going to happen. Why would Flynn restructure his contract when his contract is for 3 years. They may cut him after his second year. The way I see it the only way Carroll lets him go is for draft pick(s). Until that happens (meaning a team is willing to cough up picks for him) he's here for another year. So the Jason Campbell's of the world will have to wait at least another year regardless.
 

ImTheScientist

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SeahawkGeoff":1quoqbfu said:
The money is already spent. Weather Flynn is being overpaid or not he is guaranteed another 4 million no matter what. So there not going to cut him and pay him 4 million, that's just not going to happen. Why would Flynn restructure his contract when his contract is for 3 years. They may cut him after his second year. The way I see it the only way Carroll lets him go is for draft pick(s). Until that happens (meaning a team is willing to cough up picks for him) he's here for another year. So the Jason Campbell's of the world will have to wait at least another year regardless.

:141847_bnono: :141847_bnono: :141847_bnono: :141847_bnono:
Flynn received a $6M signing bonus and base salaries of $2M this season, $5.25M in 2013 and $6.25M in 2014. His base salary is guaranteed this season, and $2 million of his base salary in '13 also is guaranteed.

The total guaranteed money is $10M.

Flynn's contract also contains escalator clauses in 2013 and '14 that reportedly could increase the total value of the contract by another $5M.
 

SeahawkGeoff

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Okay I hate trying to figure out contracts. So 6 million signing bonus plus 2 million this year and then 2 million 2013 which makes 10 million or have I got that wrong again. Cause it's defiantly 10 million guaranteed, right?. They would still be losing another 2 million if they cut him next year, or have I got that wrong and it's staring me in the face?
 

ImTheScientist

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SeahawkGeoff":jo7n0syn said:
Okay I hate trying to figure out contracts. So 6 million signing bonus plus 2 million this year and then 2 million 2013 which makes 10 million or have I got that wrong again. Cause it's defiantly 10 million guaranteed, right?. They would still be losing another 2 million if they cut him next year, or have I got that wrong and it's staring me in the face?

on a side note....isn't :141847_bnono: just the most annoying emoticon of all time. I want to punch it every time I see it.
 

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I believe his signing bonus counts this year and next correct? So you save nothing by cutting him. He'll count against the cap, unless they can use the amnesty clause, but I don't think they can because he'll only be in year 2 of a contract.
 

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[/quote]

This is true for any NFL QB. Depth wins championships......true, but that is not true for the QB position. Backup QB's don't win championships...show me how many backup QBs that have come into play and have won Superbowl?[/quote]

Staubach, Bradshaw, Plunkett, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, and Tom Brady were all backups who supplanted starters at some point in the season and went on to win the superbowl. That's about what 1/6 of all Superbowl winning QB's?

There are also many who were backups that led teams to the Superbowl but didn't win.

I remember clearly the years Plunkett took over for Pastorini/Wilson, Doug Williams took over for Jay Schroeder, Trent Dilfer took over for Tony Banks, and Tom Brady took over for Drew Bledsoe. Those all took place at varying times in the season. With Williams it was for the playoffs basically only. Hostetler took over for Simms very late in the season as well. Brady took over early for Bledsoe (about a quarter of the way in). Dilfer took over for Banks after a couple of weeks, as Banks wasn't performing and they needed somebody to just manage the game and not a guy who would try to force things and created turnovers like Banks did. Plunkett was stuck in the Al Davis revolving wheel of QB's. Jay Schroeder lost the confidence of his teammates and coach and kept coming out with injuries. Gibbs finally said "enough" and just put Williams in and decided to just run with it for better or worse.[/quote]

I will give you Williams, Hostetler .... maybe Dilfer..... but stop it with the Brady, Bradshaw, or Staubach. The other thing you may notice is in the modern day NFL where QB plays a huge role its not happening. :141847_bnono:

Matt Flynn has started 2 games, I would prefer to take the gamble he won't be one of those 1/7 backup (if that, personally I don't accept all your QBs) who won't win the SB and allocate that money to someone who will see the field.

:les: If you want to over pay a backup QB lets bring one in with actual experience. :les:

:th2thumbs:[/quote]

What do you mean you'll "give me" Williams, Hostetler, and MAYBE Dilfer, but forget the others? The question was what backup QB's came in and won Superbowls. All of the ones I listed started the season in which they won the Superbowl as CLEAR 2nd string QB's. They got beat out for the job. Brady, Bradshaw, and Staubach were all second stringers at least a ways into the season (farther than you think apparently). Craig Morton was starting in Dallas above Staubach. Yes... Morton was the starter, but was a turnover machine, just as he was in Denver. Staubach took over. Bradshaw couldn't ever win the starting job, because Chuck Noll thought he was a moron. That's a fact. The starter's name is not coming to me, but he is remembered as the first starting black QB of the modern era and was a pretty steady guy, but he also had turnover problems, but Bradshaw could never win the job out of training camp and was not anointed the starter until winning the Super Bowl that year, and then he was... and won 3 more. Brady was a late round pick and was liked by coaches but they felt that Bledsoe gave them a better chance to win. He didn't come in until a fourth way through the season. Check your facts. You seem to follow me and question every post I make. I don't pull things out of my butt. I actually know a lot about football believe it or not.
 

MontanaHawk05

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Backup QB's are hugely important, but I don't think Flynn should be it. He doesn't really fit this offense, never has to begin with, and he'd be far from the first backup QB out there to be hankering for a starting job.
 
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skater18000

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List the great Russell Wilson backups out there or in the ncaa right now

Tim Tebow

Tavaris Jackson

Terrell Pryor

Etc.
 
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