Thoughts on Bruce Irvin + Future

A lot of people like throw in the towel as soon as possible. Carroll and now Quinn are focused on developing their young talent, and they're going to stick by Irvin until he shows that he's not developing or not interested in it. And they certainly wouldn't be tossing him onto the field with regularity if he was showing zero interest in getting better. Patience, please.

Only 3 people voted 'bad'.

Relax Irvinites.

Most of us have a realistic and tempered approach to this.

bestfightstory":3kg4dgi1 said:

Only 3 people voted 'bad'.

Relax Irvinites.

Most of us have a realistic and tempered approach to this.

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Irvinites? Really?

It might be one thing if there were folks here proclaiming that he's going to rewrite record books. But most people are just providing info and offering context (context like, "yeah, he was the first DE drafted... good thing he got the most sacks of any DE drafted, right?").

TJH":1dweag7e said:

jammerhawk":1dweag7e said:

Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.

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The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.

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He lead all rookie pass rushers in sacks. What other pass rusher would you have wanted at 15?

T-Sizzle":31b465ss said:

TJH":31b465ss said:

jammerhawk":31b465ss said:

Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.

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The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.

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He lead all rookie pass rushers in sacks. What other pass rusher would you have wanted at 15?

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Your assumption is Bruce Irvin vs all other rookie DEs. There were other options at that pick, including trading back.

bestfightstory":1y9bcv6k said:

T-Sizzle":1y9bcv6k said:

TJH":1y9bcv6k said:

The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.

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He lead all rookie pass rushers in sacks. What other pass rusher would you have wanted at 15?

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Your assumption is Bruce Irvin vs all other rookie DEs. There were other options at that pick, including trading back.

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Carroll and Schneider already said they weren't going to risk trading back with that pick.

I understand that Carroll and Schneider said that, it doesn't take evaluating/critiquing their decision for conversation's sake off the table.

I was not impressed with him this year and don't think his stats paint a very appropriate picture unless you look at the game-by-game lines. But, I think he should be capable of growing into the pick and his role, I'm not concerned about him.

Bruce Irvin does not work well as a lone pass rusher. Clemons could handle it but Irvin couldn't (see Atlanta). We need pressure in the middle and on the other side to smoke out QBs and then Irvin's speed to go in for the kill. That's my dream anyway.

I think most people forget that this kid started playing football at a higher level late in his life (relatively). 99% of NFL players have spent every year of their life, starting from little league, playing football. Irvin spent his young adult years on the streets, selling drugs, and dealing with a different reality than most here can fathom. I believe he has only had 1 season of major college football under his belt before he was thrust into the big boy league. I don't know what Irvin's football IQ is, but I have to believe that he is a bit behind the game. I think the bulb will finally light for him and he will dominate. Worst case scenario is that it never lights and he simply gets 6-8 sacks a year because of his speed, in a situational pass rusher role. That wouldn't be too bad for the hawks. Point is that his POTENTIAL is exciting.

No need to panic about this kid just yet. If nothing else he's already shown his ability to succeed when life tried to beat him down. If the trend continues on the field then the hawks will have a gem...

Go Hawks!

tcs

TJH":26s771cd said:

Throwdown":26s771cd said:

Zowert":26s771cd said:

8 sacks, a FF and 20 solo tackles for a guy that got very limited playing time. I don't know why people are so worried, and further more people calling him a bust already.

He's going to get stronger and faster. I'm sure the D line coach will be having Irvin packing on some weight (lean muscle so he can keep his speed).

The thing is, speedy type DE's rarely dominate the NFL. It takes more balanced guys, with speed and power. Bruce has the speed. He's faster than any defensive lineman in the league. He just needs to work hard this off-season and get some power underneath him. He can't push those big O-lineman back, so he has to beat them around the edge. Which is tough because although offensive tackles are big and much slower than him, they can move laterally pretty damn quickly. All they need to do is push Irvin off balance on his way around the edge and he's totally out of the play.

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Mel Kiper's still in their ear?

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Or maybe we have eyes and can see that he gets destroyed on 95% of plays and forces the team to play 10 on 11 football against the run.

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95% !?!? That would mean the other 5% he had a sack or solo tackle. Other than Howard, Bruce Irvin has the least amount of playing time among D-linemen. He would only get a handful of plays a game, except during the three blowout games we had. So basically what you're saying is that Irvin's play is black and white. He can't just do his job, that he's either getting destroyed or making a big play.

I doubt when you're watching a Seahawks game that you're focusing on Bruce Irvin the ENTIRE time. Most likely you happened to see him get pancaked or taken out of a play a few times and came to the conclusion that he's not getting the job done.

I'll admit, I use to do this all the time. Until one of my friends put me in my place by telling me there are 22 players on the field and its impossible to focus on every single one of them on every play. Quarterbacks are basically the only guy on the field you're watching every play. Unless you're a scout for an NFL team and you're at a college game to watch one particular player. But you/we are not. We're fans. So to say that you have eyes and they see Bruce Irvin getting destroyed on 95% of the plays he is on the field for is ridiculous...

volsunghawk":30xp884j said:

TJH":30xp884j said:

jammerhawk":30xp884j said:

Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.

Click to expand...

The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.

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Von Miller as a rookie: 11.5 sacks
Aldon Smith as a rookie: 14.0 sacks
Demarcus Ware as a rookie: 8.0 sacks
J.J. Watt as a rookie: 5.5 sacks
Elvis Dumervil as a rookie: 8.5 sacks
Jason Pierre-Paul as a rookie: 4.5 sacks
Osi Umenyiora as a rookie: 1.0 sack

Reggie White as a rookie: 13.0 sacks
Michael Strahan as a rookie: 1.0 sack (4.5 in his first full season)

Bruce Irvin as a rookie: 8.0 sacks

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Yeah, great pass rushers aren't "usually" great right away. It varies a bit, depending on the player and the system into which they've been inserted. But even if we accept the premise, seems that Irvin is on a Dumervil/Ware type of schedule. Sucks a lot, huh?

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You really can't just look at the sacks statstic in a vacuum and expect it to tell you much. I would argue few pass rushers were as worthless as Bruce on the plays were they did not get a sack.

T-Sizzle":cgd97774 said:

TJH":cgd97774 said:

jammerhawk":cgd97774 said:

Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.

Click to expand...

The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.

Click to expand...

He lead all rookie pass rushers in sacks. What other pass rusher would you have wanted at 15?

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I would rather take the best available player appropriate to the draft position and pursue a pass rusher in a different slot.

volsunghawk":1qo0dg6z said:

TJH":1qo0dg6z said:

jammerhawk":1qo0dg6z said:

Tough crowd to please around here, really disagree as to the negative thinking on Irvin. Maybe he'll be a Leo and maybe not, but he will be an improved pass rusher next season.

Click to expand...

The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.

Click to expand...

Von Miller as a rookie: 11.5 sacks
Aldon Smith as a rookie: 14.0 sacks
Demarcus Ware as a rookie: 8.0 sacks
J.J. Watt as a rookie: 5.5 sacks
Elvis Dumervil as a rookie: 8.5 sacks
Jason Pierre-Paul as a rookie: 4.5 sacks
Osi Umenyiora as a rookie: 1.0 sack

Reggie White as a rookie: 13.0 sacks
Michael Strahan as a rookie: 1.0 sack (4.5 in his first full season)

Bruce Irvin as a rookie: 8.0 sacks

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Yeah, great pass rushers aren't "usually" great right away. It varies a bit, depending on the player and the system into which they've been inserted. But even if we accept the premise, seems that Irvin is on a Dumervil/Ware type of schedule. Sucks a lot, huh?

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Irvin led all rookies with 8 sacks. So he was the best pass rusher from the 2012 draft. He will be a good one, if he keeps progressing and right now I don't see why he wouldn't progress.

Zowert":3cy8wa5b said:

95% !?!? That would mean the other 5% he had a sack or solo tackle. Other than Howard, Bruce Irvin has the least amount of playing time among D-linemen. He would only get a handful of plays a game, except during the three blowout games we had. So basically what you're saying is that Irvin's play is black and white. He can't just do his job, that he's either getting destroyed or making a big play.

I doubt when you're watching a Seahawks game that you're focusing on Bruce Irvin the ENTIRE time. Most likely you happened to see him get pancaked or taken out of a play a few times and came to the conclusion that he's not getting the job done.

I'll admit, I use to do this all the time. Until one of my friends put me in my place by telling me there are 22 players on the field and its impossible to focus on every single one of them on every play. Quarterbacks are basically the only guy on the field you're watching every play. Unless you're a scout for an NFL team and you're at a college game to watch one particular player. But you/we are not. We're fans. So to say that you have eyes and they see Bruce Irvin getting destroyed on 95% of the plays he is on the field for is ridiculous...

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I watch each game usually 3 times whth a critical focus on different aspects each time. Don't assume you know anything about me or my viewing habits.

lmaoo

You can't discount what Bruce has done in terms of sacks when he was brought in as a primary pass rusher, and a 3rd down specialist, all those guys with the exception of Aldon Smith I believe were every down guys.

Bruce Irvin has a unique skillset with legit game changer level physical abilities. That's why he's on this team.

Now it's just a matter of Bruce acclimating to the NFL game (which is a whole lot different than where he came from) and the coaching staff finding the best way to maximize his talent. I know Pete claimed once that Bruce was the "ideal Leo", but... maybe he's not. Maybe he's never going to be a 3 down DE that can hang in there against the run, but if he's going to be in the backfield threatening to sack the QB on 2nd/3rd down and +5... I'll be okay with that. I can live with him being a situational pass rusher if he's getting to the quarterback. Dan Quinn is a D-line guru. He'll figure out how best to maximize Irvin's talents. I'm not worried. FWIW, I voted option 3.

Personally I believe he will figure out how to bet in the backfield while still sealing the edge against the run. He's a great athleate and I don't think he's stupid. He just doesn't have the experience that other players his age to. He's gotten by on being an athletic freak up until now, but it doesn't mean he won't learn. Regardless of what role he ultimately ends up playing, I think Bruce Irvin will be good for 10 sacks a year at minimum from now on.

I think Irvin had a pretty good first year (particularly the first half of the year). But I'm thinking he may just stay in a specialized role unless he can improve in stopping the run. But I have no problem with him staying in a specialized role if he can get 8-9 sacks a year in it.

TJH":g5tw4ic1 said:

volsunghawk":g5tw4ic1 said:

TJH":g5tw4ic1 said:

The issue is whether or not he was worth the 15th pick in the draft. Great pass rushers are usually great right away(Miller, Aldon, Ware, Watt etc) it's disconcerting to have to have a wait and hope "maybe" mindset about such a high pick. He just isn't a player teams have to account for right now.

Click to expand...

Von Miller as a rookie: 11.5 sacks
Aldon Smith as a rookie: 14.0 sacks
Demarcus Ware as a rookie: 8.0 sacks
J.J. Watt as a rookie: 5.5 sacks
Elvis Dumervil as a rookie: 8.5 sacks
Jason Pierre-Paul as a rookie: 4.5 sacks
Osi Umenyiora as a rookie: 1.0 sack

Reggie White as a rookie: 13.0 sacks
Michael Strahan as a rookie: 1.0 sack (4.5 in his first full season)

Bruce Irvin as a rookie: 8.0 sacks

---

Yeah, great pass rushers aren't "usually" great right away. It varies a bit, depending on the player and the system into which they've been inserted. But even if we accept the premise, seems that Irvin is on a Dumervil/Ware type of schedule. Sucks a lot, huh?

Click to expand...

You really can't just look at the sacks statstic in a vacuum and expect it to tell you much. I would argue few pass rushers were as worthless as Bruce on the plays were they did not get a sack.

Click to expand...

You also really can't just trot out crap like "great pass rushers are usually great right away" when there's ample evidence that many guys who end up with very good career numbers often start out slow.

volsunghawk":3frylpzx said:

You also really can't just trot out crap like "great pass rushers are usually great right away" when there's ample evidence that many guys who end up with very good career numbers often start out slow.

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The guys that start out slow are generally the all-around players because they are asked to do much more. Dedicatied specialist rushers generally have been good from the start. Irvin is about as far away from an all-around player as you possibly could have.

I'm not saying he was terrible, but I do not think he warrants his draft position as of yet and can be a huge vulnerability out there. I just get annoyed with the people who just spout out "OMGERD 8 sacks best of the rookies!!1" like that means anything by itself.